| Author | Message | ||
| Tim Lorentzen (Timl)
Registered Member Username: Timl Post Number: 1 Registered: 8-2008 Posted From: 63.86.207.222 Rating: N/A |
I am looking at buying 59 4104 that is local for me BUT they say it has a vibration that is either a loose or cracked flywheel. Runs really good - 4 speed - have not driven it yet. Anyone had this problem before? I have the ability to fix it if that is what it is. Would it be safe to drive it 80 miles? Thanks for any info - new to this but been looking for 3-4 years. | ||
| Keith Wood (Ft6)
Registered Member Username: Ft6 Post Number: 31 Registered: 8-2008 Posted From: 71.198.253.223 Rating: N/A |
I dunno, if it's loose you will be running the risk of breaking the bolts that hold it to the crankshaft. If it's cracked and out of balance enough to vibrate, you run the risk of the thing handgrenading. Either way, I think the potential costs outweigh the benefit of getting it home to work on it. If you feel that you HAVE to drive it home, I would run it at or near idle RPMs, on the side of the road, with someone running escort behind with the 4-way flashers going. If it's that close -- and that good a deal -- you might get big-rig towing rates from a couple of outfits, or possibly borrow or rent some working space and fix it where it is now. | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 539 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 207.231.75.253 Rating: N/A |
Tim, The only reason I am saying this, is that I am the first nut to see it. Don't buy any bus without looking at it and driving it first! Maybe agree to buy it if it makes it home? (I'm only partly kidding.) Now, down to specifics. When you get to the bus, and go to start it, do it from the rear. Hold the stop lever on the governor in the stop position, and crank it for several seconds, listening carefully for two things. One is the starter grinding against the flywheel in a spot every time the engine turns. The other is a noticeable difference in cranking speed every time a specific piston comes up. (Every 1/6 of a turn.) Now let it start, and feel the exhaust manifold right at the outlet ports from each cylinder. Needless to say, a cool one in relation to the others is the problem. If you don't find it that way, step down on the clutch enough to put good pressure on the throwout bearing, and see if the vibes go away. Also, torque between the end of the crank, and the flywheel, ( in gear and under load,) would take the vibration out, as the stress on the {remaining?} bolts would tend to hold things still. My personal opinion, with only the same info you have, is that I wouldn't trust it for 80 yards. Anyhow, price it as needing major engine work, and don't go under it or any other air ride, or between the tires and the wheel wells, without blocking it securely at the jacking points. Good luck, hope it turns out ok, and IF you buy it, please post back with what you found. Regards, George | ||
| larry currier (Larryc)
Registered Member Username: Larryc Post Number: 192 Registered: 2-2007 Posted From: 207.200.116.13 Rating: N/A |
Find a hole in the bell, get a big pry bar and see if it is loose. Check the driveline, the u joint yokes have to align to each other. Lay directly under each u joint and push up on them to be sure one is not worn out or loose. | ||
| Tim Hoskinson (Tdh37514151)
Registered Member Username: Tdh37514151 Post Number: 244 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 65.25.139.50  Rating: N/A |
Tim there are a multitude of things that can cause vibration. It depends on when the vibration occurs. Is the vibration present while the bus is not in motion? If so that would of course narrow the source down to the engine. Vibration in the engine could be anything from an out of balance fan to a broken crankshaft. If the source is the flywheel driving the bus could lead to damage of the crankshaft flange or cracking of the crankshaft. If this bus was driven home from its last trip out with the vibration and the flywheel is the culprit the crank may already be damaged. As advised by George price the bus as needing major repair and keep that in your mind. At worst case you will find what you already prepared your self for. In the best case you will get a bus for a good price and find a bad fan. In any case get more info. and post it I'm sure you will get good advise. Best of luck. Tim | ||
| Tim Lorentzen (Timl)
Registered Member Username: Timl Post Number: 2 Registered: 8-2008 Posted From: 63.86.207.222 Rating: N/A |
Thanks for all the good info especially valuable to a novice in this arena. I have seen video of the bus and apparently it vibrates while not running (I will contact them to verify that) - good idea to idle it home. The guy on the video revs it up from the rear. It may all be a moot point though as they are smokers and my wife is allergic to smoke. It seems that there are more than a few of those old buses out there. My research seems to indicate that for the money the 4104 is a great starter bus. Any thoughts? | ||
| Len Silva (Lsilva)
Registered Member Username: Lsilva Post Number: 164 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 71.99.19.85 Rating: N/A |
Driving my 4104 some years ago, it started making a horrendous noise but only at a particular RPM, probably around 1000. I couldn't locate the problem on the road and drove it about 400 miles home, just trying to avoid that particular engine speed as much as possible. When I got home, I found that ALL the bolts were broken, nothing holding it together except the dowel pins and the clutch. A few gouges in the bell housing but no permanent damage. I have since heard that this is not unheard of on the 4104 but found no real answers as to why it occurred. Len | ||
| joe padberg (Joemc7ab)
Registered Member Username: Joemc7ab Post Number: 291 Registered: 6-2004 Posted From: 66.38.159.33 Rating: N/A |
ALL the bolts were broken NEW Bolts are supposed to be used after the flywheel has been off along with a new scuff plate. In ADDITION special bolt lubricant HAS to be used known as INTERNATIONAL COMPOUND #2 DETROIT DIESEL part no 1#5198563. This same lubricant is also used on the headbolts or studs and nuts. Joe. | ||
| Keith Wood (Ft6)
Registered Member Username: Ft6 Post Number: 33 Registered: 8-2008 Posted From: 71.198.253.223 Rating: N/A |
Tim, you're right, there are plenty of good coaches out there, and some are pretty inexpensive. I don't know where you are, but if you aren't in a hurry, give it a month or two and you are likely to find something better, cheaper. | ||
| Tim Brandt (Timb)
Registered Member Username: Timb Post Number: 194 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 74.244.14.221  Rating: N/A |
Tim, As everyone has said plan on more than what the initial cost is. I picked up my coach for 10,500 and have put another 5,000 in it but now feel I have a good solid coach. Bear in mind this is doing all work myself other than mounting new tires so I don't have much labor cost in that 5K. I bought my coach here www.thebusman.com | ||
| Tim Lorentzen (Timl)
Registered Member Username: Timl Post Number: 3 Registered: 8-2008 Posted From: 63.86.207.222 Rating: N/A |
Guys, I am 25 miles north of Louisville (just moved here in February from Bismarck ND) and let me tell you there are MANY more coaches for sale within driving distance down here! Thanks for all the advice. I sing with my family www.oldhatmusic.com so this is why I am looking. | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 454 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 208.100.193.121 Rating: N/A |
As everyone has said plan on more than what the initial cost is. I picked up my coach for 10,500 and have put another 5,000 in it but now feel I have a good solid coach. Thats about a normal price for a solid good maintained shell. The be a finished bus camper will take about another 20K, if used is OK and you dont suffer from BESTITIS. FF | ||
| Tim Brandt (Timb)
Registered Member Username: Timb Post Number: 195 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 74.244.14.221 Rating: N/A |
Mine actually came converted but I have had to do things in the interior like replace carpet, hot water heater etc | ||
| bruce ohlson (0le)
Registered Member Username: 0le Post Number: 1 Registered: 9-2008 Posted From: 71.142.84.33 Rating: N/A |
I've been associated with two different 671s that had the flywheel come off. The first was in a GM-PD 4103, the second was in a GM-TDM 4801. Each has the same power-pack as the 4104. In neither instance did it "grenade." Having the flywheel come off is not a common problem but at the same time, it is not that rare, either. If I could buy the bus at a distressed price and it passed all the other requirements that I had, and the flywheel isn't TOO loose, I wouldn't hesitate to start out on an 80 mile (home) run with it. If it makes it, fine. If it doesn't, that's fine too. (It needed to be towed anyway.) Here is a test: With the engine OFF, pry the flywheel back and fourth with a large screw driver through the window in the bell housing. There will be a tiny bit of normal movement: crankshaft endplay. Beyond that, the flywheel shouldn't move much, but Hook's law says the steel will flex a little bit. The more it moves, the lower the price! Good old DD, the engine manufacturer, recommends if the flywheel loosens up that both the flywheel and the crank should be replaced. Woo Woo. Big bucks. You can get a specialist to come to your site and grind the end of the crank square again for fairly cheap. Ask at local heavy truck repair shops who they use. (This is the same guy who rethreads the end of the axle if a hub comes off.) He'll show up in his pickup and do the job in a couple of hours for a couple of hundred bucks. You will have to have the transmission out, of course, but that is not hard. (In my opinion, this will a lot easier first project than figureing out how to run the rack on a V-8.) Put the flywheel on a lathe and square it up. There is a lip on the flywheel that centers it on the crank. This lip needs to be there. The same fellow who came out to your site to clean up the end of your crank will be able to suggest an experienced machine shop, OR you might just want to replace the flywheel. Pull out the locating pin on the crank and tap that hole for one more bolt to hold the flywheel onto the crank. This pin was designed into the engine to make it easier to install the flywheel, but it (the pin) is not needed; an additional bolt is better. Before reassembling, balance the flywheel and the clutch. Look with a jaundiced eye at the harmonic balancer, too. Use new bolts to hold the flywheel to the crank. Get them from the dealer; they are special. There are several sizes (having to do with the thickness of the shoulder), make sure you get the correct ones for your particular flywheel thickness. If the flywheel has completely separated from the crank and you are desperate, you can just bolt it back on without all the machine work, but it probably won't last more than a couple of thousand miles....enough to get you home. If you do this, do your darndest to get the flywheel concentric with the crank (read: dial guage). Good luck with your repair. Keep us posted on the outcome. (First post, but I have been lurking for YEARS) ~0le |