| Author | Message | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 470 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 208.100.193.102 Rating: N/A |
On our Canadian trip this summer the engine RPM would decay only slowly when warm. Sure makes up shifting harder when it takes 4 to 10 seconds for the engine to return to idle. With the "most probable" cause the throttle cable , I pulled it and it sure was dirty. A soak in diesel , a couple of blasts in the housing with a spoonful of PB Blaster and shot of air , and it was ready to re assemble . Slowly feeding it in with Lubri-Plate white grease and I figured we would be back in business in no time!. Only hassle the cable end never came thru up front by the throttle . Figured the housing might have just a hole , so I fed it in from the front , instead of the rear. 4 ft from the end the cable jammed and wouldn't come out , or go further, OOPS! Some further inspection showed the housing was broken at the 90deg turn near the rear bulkhead. So I got under and cut the tubing , unbolted the bracket holding the broken/cut part and was able to remove the cable, no sweat. After a trip to HD I found out that the housing was not 1/4 copper tubing , but BRASS tubing , harder , stiffer and with a more generous 1/4 inch ID.. A call to LUKE at US Coach found a replacement piece that would work , and a trip to HD for 5/16 compression fittings ,,,to splice the new piece in. Then UPS delivered an EMPTY box (with a hole in it) and a call to LUKE revealed that that hunk of brass 1/4 inch tubing was the last he had. Someone has had to suffered thru this problem before , and I hate re-inventing the wheel. In desperation I can rig steel tubing , like brake line tubing , but I wonder if a better, more elegant solution has already been done by the fast thinking members of this group? Hopefully, FF | ||
| Jerry Liebler (Jerry_liebler)
Registered Member Username: Jerry_liebler Post Number: 337 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 75.117.165.36 Rating: N/A |
Fred, How long a piece do you need? You might check with a local hobby shop, they usually have thin wall brass tubing in sizes that telescope into each other, If my memory is correct the brand is K & S, I have no idea what it stands for. Most common is 8" lengths but I've gotten 2' lengths in the past. Another thought is do a Google search for brass tubing, I've found all manner of aluminum stock that way. Regards Jerry 4107 1120 | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 732 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 208.54.200.216 Rating: N/A |
Don't see why copper won't work. Also, you can get SS brake lines from your friendly auto parts store which should be best of all. SS bends like butter also-much to my surprise. The ones I got came in different lengths with fittings on each end, I just cut off what I needed. This stuff is great! | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 471 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 208.100.193.105 Rating: N/A |
Don't see why copper won't work. It might , but it would have to be a looser 5/16 as the ID of 1/4 in copper tubing is smaller than the 1/4 in throttle cable. Stiff is probably good , as any flex will allow more unreliable throttle position. Maybe not too much of a problem as I usually drive on the pin anyway. The model shop brass has a very thin wall thickness. Will go a hunting at NAPA today to see what a cure is. FF | ||
| don goldsmith (Bottomacher)
Registered Member Username: Bottomacher Post Number: 207 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 72.15.86.59 Rating: N/A |
Can you swedge a 5/16" refgigeration tube or 3/8 plumbing section up over the old tube end, and maybe solder the joint? A/c mechanics are usually abunbdant everywhere and will sell you a small piece if you don't have an account at a supply house. | ||
| Jim Wilke (Jim Bob) (Pd41044039)
Registered Member Username: Pd41044039 Post Number: 306 Registered: 2-2001 Posted From: 69.77.156.190 Rating: N/A |
Fred you probably already know this but the throttle tube is made of many sections about 4 feet long with inverted flare nuts on each end like a gas line, except brass. If you can get the fitting end off under the bus, you can put both pieces into a sleeve of larger tubing that has an ID to fit the OD of your tube. It could be steel, copper, brass, etc and could be silver soldered like a refrigeration line connection. I think the larger ID of the tube is due to it being brass instead of copper or steel but I never dug into that as mine was not broken. Replacing it with steel or copper might work but brass wears much better without galling than the others. If you make it out of copper it might only last about 25 years! | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 473 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 208.100.193.24 Rating: N/A |
Looks like the easiest will be 5/16 brake line. Its stiff enough to be used as a race , yet I think I can bend it 70deg with my refrigeration tubing spring , and still have an inside diameter that will pass the 1/4 inch throttle cable. Will post the results . A Google did find brass pipe (pipe has the required ID ) in a variety of wall thicknesses , but the Brake line too should go that 25 years. FF | ||
| Jim Wilke (Jim Bob) (Pd41044039)
Registered Member Username: Pd41044039 Post Number: 307 Registered: 2-2001 Posted From: 69.77.156.190 Rating: N/A |
Well, Fred, if you can get the other piece of tubing out with the inverted flare nut, you should be able to get a premade brake line with nuts & flares on each end that will thread right up. Good luck. | ||
| Mel La Plante (Mel_4104)
Registered Member Username: Mel_4104 Post Number: 68 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 205.250.176.175 Rating: |
the things that you miss as you get older and wiser and there are alot of them and then there is that throtle cable, oh the joy of getting out and crawing around in that front bay and over the back of the engine fighting with undoing the fittings, trying to pull out that nice dirty grease cable that will likely hang up some place so you get to pull it back and forth a few time to finally get it out, the there is the joy cleaning it in a bucket of solvent,then flushing out the tube and cleaning up the mess the air preasure caused when you blow out all that nice old grease and crud. now yow you get to do the nice part, putting new clean grease in the tube,then drying off the cable and re greasing as you try to push it back into the tube, but be sure that you have a 5 gallon pail handy the put it in if you have to repull it when it jams up, now think of the joy of finnaly getting it in place now you can have the fun of getting the fittings back on each end. maybe the bad part is the wife will not talk to you for a couple days because of all the words that were used during this quick little fix it job.it is the quiet times now i miss when my wife is not talking to me as 10 -12 years ago 2 of us were having cable trouble so we desided to fix them. my buddy disided the fix it way and i went to an air throtle pulling out the old tredle,replacing it with a new willians one,pulled a new 1/4 air line to the back, disconnected the rear cable at the gov. housing, cut out a piece of 1/4 plate fo a mounting braket for the new slave air plunger that controls the gov. as the old cable did, hooked up some air line. then stepped into the bus started it up,waited about a minute for a little air to build up, and then did a miner adjustment at the back then out for a test drive. back to the yard to see how the other job was going and was told it would be a week getting a new cable. the good part of this is i watched him clean that cable twice since then, the sad part is the last time he changed to the air throttle and now the is no fun watching him, after he tryied his new throttle he came back from a long trip and when i asked how it worked he said he would punch me in the nose if i laughed at him for keeping the old type all those years. oh did i say that i miss having to work on that cable the answear is NO. however some prople will say you do not have the control like the cable, but there again it depends on the air preasure you have. they will say they like it mechanical well i ask do they like the air ride with air bags or are they wishing they had leaf springs. and the new buses are one up again as they use electric controled throttles, but there again no i am not changing out to one of them. i will keep my 4104 the way i have it now.. | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Registered Member Username: Rjlong Post Number: 1423 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 67.181.166.160  Rating: N/A |
Mel - Your comments were amusing. . . brought out a chuckle. If I read your post correctly,you now have an air throttle with a four-speed stick shift in your 4104? That's almost as entertaining as GMC's idea of the air throttle mixed with the wet clutch in the 4905s! GM's combination will separated the "drivers" from the "stab & steer" folk, for sure! But no cable's to clean - that's a good thing. Just remember to bring along an extra diaphragm for the engine slave unit, because they WILL fail. BTDT (And no jokes about mama keeping it in her purse, either!)  | ||
| Len Silva (Lsilva)
Registered Member Username: Lsilva Post Number: 167 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 71.99.19.85 Rating: N/A |
Has anyone ever tried to develop a hydraulic throttle set up? Seem to me it would eliminate the mechanical problems with the cable and also the delay with the air throttle. Len | ||
| Jim Wilke (Jim Bob) (Pd41044039)
Registered Member Username: Pd41044039 Post Number: 308 Registered: 2-2001 Posted From: 69.77.156.190 Rating: N/A |
Well, I have had a 4905 with auto/air throttle, I currently have an Eagle with auto / air throttle, and a 4104 with stick and cable throttle. I hope most will admit that I have some actual experience with both types. There is no comparison between the sloppy control you have with an air throttle and the exact control a cable provides. An automatic is fine with air throttle because you floor it to get going and only back off when you are going fast enough. I can control the 4104 within about 20 RPMs and I can't come close to that with either of the others. Precise throttle control allows you to accurately raise or lower the RPMs as you are shifting, most needed on the downshift. Unlike later buses, the 4104 was designed very ruggedly & simple so that it could bring you in rather than be stuck on the side of the road and so that it could be repaired in the boonies with simple tools. Those are admirable qualities today as anyone who has been stranded by or struggled to repair a high tech machine will admit. It's really hard to get modern stuff repaired even by the authorized dealers today as you typically have to take it back several times and then argue about them charging you for repairs during the warranty period. Of my three buses, the '04 is absolutely the best built one of all. | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 733 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 208.54.200.247 Rating: N/A |
Jim, I can only agree with you on the 4104, maybe the best bus ever built and a sensible size. | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 475 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 208.100.193.79 Rating: N/A |
I can only agree with you on the 4104, Other busses in the 50's and 60's had the same lack of tech "sophistication" and therefore are easy to roadside repair. Nicest thing about a DD is its LOOONG time of advising the driver when its sick , and remaining driveable. FF | ||
| Mel La Plante (Mel_4104)
Registered Member Username: Mel_4104 Post Number: 69 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 205.250.176.175 Rating: N/A |
yes i still drive my 4104 and i also think they are the easyist bus there is to work on, no belts until you start playing with them. and of course i did,i put in an Isspro tack,jake brake,shepard power steering, raccro air ride seats,tilt-telescoping steering wheel, air assist clutch, and of course the air throtle. all these change outs are too reduce the amount of body damage i have when i get out from behind the wheel and off the seat after a long day of driving or off some roads that is not at interstate standards.the jake is self explained, the power steering is so much easier on the arms and shoulder, when i can turn the wheel with one finger siting on dry pavement, yes i like it, the tilt wheel is nice as my belly now over my belt not behind it, this my wife does not like,the telescping feature allows it to be turned up when parked to become a table to put a flower pot on, this my wife likes, as we both have raccaro air ride seat at the end of driving over rough roads for a day you get out with out a sore back,which we both like, the air throttle takes all the stress of your leg and you can go 8-10 hrs a day without a sore leg, which means you do not walk like a crab for the first half hour after you stop, which again i like, the air assist clutch i am still working on, it is sitting at 75% like 25% try somthing else. | ||
| Mel La Plante (Mel_4104)
Registered Member Username: Mel_4104 Post Number: 70 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 205.250.176.175 Rating: N/A |
yes i still drive my 4104 and i also think they are the easyist bus there is to work on, no belts until you start playing with them. and of course i did,i put in an Isspro tack,jake brake,shepard power steering, raccro air ride seats,tilt-telescoping steering wheel, air assist clutch, and of course the air throtle. all these change outs are too reduce the amount of body damage i have when i get out from behind the wheel and off the seat after a long day of driving or off some roads that is not at interstate standards.the jake is self explained, the power steering is so much easier on the arms and shoulder, when i can turn the wheel with one finger siting on dry pavement, yes i like it, the tilt wheel is nice as my belly now over my belt not behind it, this my wife does not like,the telescping feature allows it to be turned up when parked to become a table to put a flower pot on, this my wife likes, as we both have raccaro air ride seat at the end of driving over rough roads for a day you get out with out a sore back,which we both like, the air throttle takes all the stress of your leg and you can go 8-10 hrs a day without a sore leg, which means you do not walk like a crab for the first half hour after you stop, which again i like, the air assist clutch i am still working on, it is sitting at 75% like 25% try somthing else. | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 734 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 208.54.200.184 Rating: N/A |
Mel, The PS sounds very nice. Mine is better since I adjusted it but still nowhere near as easy as yours. It is a hard days work but I figure it keeps my arm and shoulder muscles in good shape on long trips!! I don't have an air throttle, I use the hand throttle for distance driving and find it works very well. When the handle is turned upside down it is held by friction only in spite of the notches on the shaft and is easy to push in. I have an air ride seat but the wife has a stock captain's seat and never has complained since it reclines and rotates. So far I have been able to avoid the flower pots and frilly lamps. Mine is a very simple conversion, looks more like a boat from the '60s than a MH inside. | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 293 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 71.55.199.152 Rating: N/A |
Mel I thought that a belt buckle was supposed to face outward not downward? LOL On cruise control, a board with a notch in in to hold it under the lip of the dash works real good and it will keep er wound up and you can rest you feet on top on the dash and look cooollll going down the highway. | ||
| Jim Wilke (Jim Bob) (Pd41044039)
Registered Member Username: Pd41044039 Post Number: 309 Registered: 2-2001 Posted From: 69.139.115.193 Rating: N/A |
Mine came with power steering, and someone added a not very well designed air assist clutch which I perfected. The clutch is now as easy as an F-150, about 20 lbs foot pressure. No shaky leg in city traffic. I added a Rostra cruise control with the control unit in the engine compartment acting directly on the governor throttle, the throttle cable does not move when it's on cruise but you can push the throttle to go faster if you want. But these things are all designed so that if (when)any fail, the bus can still be driven. I do think the air seats sound good. After all, if there's no air you aren't going anywhere anyway. | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1203 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.110.9  Rating: N/A |
You could also spend the money and time and install a Morse cable for a permanent fix, but costly. | ||
| Len Silva (Lsilva)
Registered Member Username: Lsilva Post Number: 168 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 71.99.19.85 Rating: |
I went and answered my own question. Looks like hydraulic throttle assemblies are readily available. http://www.mico.com/store/product-detail.php?catid=4 Might be a solution for those with stick shifts and mechanical linkage problems. Len | ||
| Jim Wilke (Jim Bob) (Pd41044039)
Registered Member Username: Pd41044039 Post Number: 310 Registered: 2-2001 Posted From: 216.83.242.107 Rating: N/A |
A Morse cable is no more a permanent fix than is the original throttle cable. Both rely on lubrication and when that goes, the cable fails. Bus throttle cables seem to fail in the engine compartment, near the exhaust & radiator air where the high temps cause the grease to dry up or go away. Morse cable will do the same thing but then you will have to remove both the inner AND the outer section (again). | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 735 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 208.54.200.22 Rating: N/A |
Jim, Do you have plans for the air assist clutch you will share? | ||
| Jim Wilke (Jim Bob) (Pd41044039)
Registered Member Username: Pd41044039 Post Number: 311 Registered: 2-2001 Posted From: 216.83.242.107 Rating: |
I will share such as I have. Someone installed an actuator valve in the clutch rod that moves (pulls)the clutch arm. They cut a piece the length of the valve out of the rod and threaded the cut ends. the valve has a threaded boss on each end. I don't know who made it but the rod works whether there's air or not. When I got the bus, it had a 1" cylinder mounted on the transmission, pushing on the clutch arm. It wasn't strong enough. I measured the required force at the clutch arm & it was nearly 265lbs to release the clutch! The 1" cyl gave only about 100 PSI force and the travel was not long enough so you had to be careful of clutch wear as it would keep the clutch from releasing fully. I installed a 3" cyl with more travel than the clutch could ever need. 3" x 100 PSI is just right. I also reversed the cylinder so that the rod attaches at the trans fixed point and the body connects to the clutch arm. That way the hose between the actuator and the cylinder barely moves. I figured less chance for wear or chafing. I can't figure why the bus manufacturers didn't put these on all of them. | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 294 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 71.55.199.152 Rating: N/A |
Jim Bob; I have a 4104 that needs to have a clutch assist BAD and where can a person buy or make an air assist. If needed my e-mail is on my profile or better yet mcpacrats@embarqmail.com thanks Gomer | ||
| Bruce Henderson (Oonrahnjay)
Registered Member Username: Oonrahnjay Post Number: 274 Registered: 8-2004 Posted From: 72.12.39.78  Rating: N/A |
Len Silva wrote "Has anyone ever tried to develop a hydraulic throttle set up? Seem to me it would eliminate the mechanical problems with the cable and also the delay with the air throttle." __. There's one on my bus from the factory. I'm trying now to find seals and pistons for it because the fluid drew water out of the air and corroded the internal parts fo badly that it's seized solidly. I'm looking at air! | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 477 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 208.100.193.217 Rating: N/A |
"the air assist clutch i am still working on," Simply find a "mousetrap" from a later Sportscar 06 and you will have the clutch peadle pressure of a VW rabit. With 1000% less to repair than a hyd system. FF | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 736 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 208.54.200.34 Rating: N/A |
Jim, Can you post some photos and give the make and model of the air cyl? Unfortunately those old mousetraps weren't made for the 671, only ones I found were for the 8V71. | ||
| Mel La Plante (Mel_4104)
Registered Member Username: Mel_4104 Post Number: 71 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 205.250.176.175 Rating: N/A |
FF,where do you park that 06 of yours and are you a light sleeper?????????? none of the gm buses that were ordered by Vancouver Is. coach lines ever had them on or were taken off real quick because of those 2 strong springs snapping back when you least expected it or were not aware of them. the other thing is we do not have any bus shells here on the island other that transits and all of them that i got to dismantle were all slush puppies. i tried making a mouse trap and it works ok but i put it on another fellows 04 who needed it more than me no i cannot find a source of springs and the spring shop wants hugh cost just to make them. at one time there was a pile of them out behind the Grayhound yard in Seatle but they are all gone. | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 478 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 208.100.193.126 Rating: N/A |
"FF,where do you park that 06 of yours and are you a light sleeper??" If the VL 100 gets its transplant in time the Sportscar of Coaches will go on the block this winter. For someone that loves empty bays , a simple interior and a well maintained coach it should be a deal. In Florida for the winter , it will be a great excuse to Come on Down , and get warm. FF | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 480 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 208.100.193.173 Rating: N/A |
DAMN!!! Was getting close , LUKE sent Another!! hunk of brass repair tubing (after UPS lost the first one) and everything finally went together. With Lubriplate 105 I could fairly easily slide the cable inside the housing. Then when I went to tighten the cable with the clamp , it DIDN'T TIGHTEN! Another Quick call to LUKE he explains there is a small piece that goes UNDER the clamp to grab the cable. No its not in Da Maint Book , or even in Da Parts book, I always check them before starting any job. Happily the front one was EZ to find , it couldn't get away in the steering compartment , AHH ,but the aft one by the engine hasn't shown itself after an hour with the metal detector. Anyone have a spare ? LUKE was able to locate , perhaps the last 4 on this planet , but it will be at least a week before its in my hand (double shipping)and we will be on the road again Oct 20. Not much time if the test ride shows a need for more wrenching. And I 95 in 4th at fast idle doesn't sound Sportscar like! Look in that 20 year box and see what you can find! Thanks FF | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 297 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 71.55.199.152 Rating: N/A |
F F Look us up when you get settled in our sunshine state, I am in Ocala and several others not too far away gomer | ||
| Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
Registered Member Username: Pvcces Post Number: 1225 Registered: 5-2001 Posted From: 65.74.65.209 Rating: N/A |
Fast Fred, IIRC, you can use a piece of deck screw or similar screw in place of the clamp part that is missing. First, grind off the thread on one side of the screw. After that is done, clip or cut a short enough piece to go in the hole in place of the missing piece. If you get the part to the point that you can get it into the clamp, install it first and then adjust the cable length using the other clamp. That ought to get you by until you get around to installing the real McCoy. Good luck. Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576 Suncatcher Ketchikan, Alaska | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 483 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 208.100.193.10 Rating: N/A |
Good idea, That's what I will have to do till I get the "real thing". Will install the one forward properly , and the trimmed screw back where its EZ to get to. FF | ||
| Rob A (Otto)
Registered Member Username: Otto Post Number: 7 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 24.109.145.157 Rating: N/A |
lol @ gomer.... a board with a notch in in to hold it under the lip of the dash works real good and it will keep er wound up and you can rest you feet on top on the dash and look cooollll going down the highway.!!! I ran hard for the 'hound one Christmas... took my ticket-punch,jammed it in...and stood in the step well to give my back a rest !! Otto | ||
| Jim Wilke (Jim Bob) (Pd41044039)
Registered Member Username: Pd41044039 Post Number: 313 Registered: 2-2001 Posted From: 69.77.156.190 Rating: N/A |
Rob the hand throttle or the board under the dash works good on a bus that is set up for 65 max speed. Mine has a high axle and the RPMs are set up too high on my engine. I put one of the cruise controls on it for about $250. was the best $$ I ever spent on the bus. You are also braver than me. I switched out of the driver's seat with my wife just once. We almost ran off the road cause you can't keep it between the lines from off to the side. (At least we didn't do well at it.) Scared the crap out of us. From then on we pulled over before getting out of the seat. | ||
| K.J. Franklin (Slow_rider)
Registered Member Username: Slow_rider Post Number: 24 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 98.204.7.118 Rating: N/A |
Hi, Jim Bob, which cruise control did you install? Thanks Frank | ||
| Jim Wilke (Jim Bob) (Pd41044039)
Registered Member Username: Pd41044039 Post Number: 326 Registered: 2-2001 Posted From: 69.77.156.190 Rating: N/A |
Hi Frank, I installed the Rostra. I believe "Pete/RTS" in Daytona sells them now but I got mine from another guy. It works really good on the flat. I have had problems in hilly country and even real tall Interstate overpasses with the cruise dropping out. I have a 6-71 2 valve which when new was 170hp pushing 12 tons. It loses some speed going up hills and the Rostra has settings in it that if the control can not recover speed when it is at wide open throttle, it drops out after a minute or so. I have reduced this quite a lot with the switch settings and it probably is not much problem if you have 318hp & just storm up those hills. We just take it in stride & know that if the speed is not holding, that in a minute the cruise will drop & have our foot ready. Someone suggested that this is due to the controller hitting the end of it's travel before the throttle connected to it. I haven't verified this on mine but I know I tried to make sure the throttle was maxing out before the controller. (Wanted every pony!) |
