| Author |
Message |
FAST FRED (65.59.73.199)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 04, 2002 - 5:34 am: | |
I am always amazed at the huge volume of fw (fresh water)and waste some folks decide to "need".
While a house bus can be a great home , it is NOT a house.
There are a few compromises required to have a great standard of living, and unless you put a third world roof rack on , just to carry "stuff", the space and volume of huge tanks severly limits what you can bring along.
Internally on boats its figgured that 40 cubic ft of stuff space per person,is enough for full time live aboard.
So the question then becomes ,Do you want room for your goodies or your waste products?
On boats a gallon a day a person is figured as acceptable minimum, 3 gal a day as luxury.
Our years of coach cruising has been more generous , as we seldom find a need to boondock for over a week.
For our use that works out to a 50gal supply for the two of us for a week.
A quick shower every other day works fine as we cruise (hopefully) in moderate climes.
When I read of folks that are installing 150 Grey and 150 Black tanks , I wonder , are they really going out for 6 WEEKS???
Or is it a simple refusal to acknowledge that a house bus is not a land house?
Sure ,I too love long hot showers , but we do them in a campground where the fw is unlimited and the sewer drain is hooked up and their 120V makes the water hot.
Different life styles is what "My Way" is all about .
Would anyone care to describe their water consumption vs. endurance , for those yet to make the decision?
FAST FRED |
Philip Curtis (205.188.192.179)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 04, 2002 - 6:09 am: | |
I have to agree with Fred all three of my tanks are 50 gallons each and at times they have lasted 2 full weeks.Iv looked at coaches that just one tank is 150 gallons and that adds up to a lot of extra weight and wasted space.Id rather carry more of my goodies than the tanks.And by the way the two weeks was in the high desart.Weve lived in our 35 ftr full time for 4 years just fine with the 150 gal three tank systom. |
Rodger Manecke (Rodger) (65.239.11.104)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 04, 2002 - 6:21 am: | |
In our 35' Prevost Champion, we have a 50 gal. FW tank and 50 gal gray/black tank. That carries us for up to 5 days without feeling deprived, up to a week if we really conserve. Dishwashing consumes a lot, so we use paper plates when strict water conservation is necessary. We shower, navy style of course, daily.
Traveling cross country, we take advantage of free overnight parking where available, usually Walmarts, Flying J's, Cracker Barrels, Rest Areas (where legal). We seldom if ever need to use an RV park between destinations just for access to water or sewer. Rallies seldom last more than a few days, so dry camping isn't a problem at those either. For longer term parking, generally we park where water and sewer are available nearby if not on the parking site.
In three years with this coach, we haven't been caught with an empty water tank or full holding tank where water or a sewer dump wasn't convenient.
50 gal each works fine for us.
Rodger |
Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy) (66.190.119.82)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 04, 2002 - 6:28 am: | |
I go out for several weeks at a time, but generally do not stay anyplace for more than a few days or a week at a time. I seldom visit a campground except to dump my tanks and add fresh water. Even then, I typically do not spend a night. I just pay their $5.00 dump fee and continue on. More often, I dump and obtain fresh water at a Flying J for free.
I have one bay devoted to all the fresh and holding tanks, water pumps, hoses etc. and feel that it is space that is well utilized.
I have 210 gallons of fresh, 70 of black and 140 gallons of gray. Even if the tanks were reduced in size by 30 % or more, the space gained would be miniscule compared to the advantage of having a somewhat plentiful capacity and I have never regretted the layout.
Richard |
Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat) (68.7.217.217)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 04, 2002 - 6:34 am: | |
I'll be taking my rig to the totally insane "Burning Man" gathering in the desert out in the middle of no-where where there's dust storms every hour, zero utilities, and you're there for two weeks. Last year I rented a commercial motorhome that carried 50 gallons of water and two 35 gallon holding tanks. My wife and I were frugal, though the intense dust and her butt-long hair meant more than average quantity of "quick" showers...and the heat and lack of humidity meant more than average water consumption, plus you HAVE to p in the pot because there's no-where outside to do it. Fortunately for us a pooh-dump truck came by a week into it because we filled both the black and grey holding tanks in about a week. So this time it's gonna be my own vehicle with 150 gallons of water and 170 gallons of place to put it once it's been "used", so I don't have to worry about it. There's already enough to worry about in that environment!! Of course I won't carry all that water all the way there... I'll fill up at the last nearest town...
http://www.burningman.org
Cheers
Gary |
Donn Reeves (67.24.152.211)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 04, 2002 - 7:21 am: | |
My old stick and staple had only 35 gal FW,35 black and 35 gray.We used to boondock at racetracks for 3-4 days with a family of 4.We always ran out of fresh,so I started bringing along 4-5 gal jugs to supplement our supply.It was still so tight that I had to be on everyone's case about consumtion.They started calling me "The Water Nazi".On my bus I'm going with 100 fresh,70 gray and 40 black,don't want to constantly be thinking about water.-Donn |
Doug (206.71.125.64)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 04, 2002 - 10:59 am: | |
Well, I am now thoroughly confused again. I am looking at doing a simple conversion with 100 fresh and 100 combined grey and black. I figure that what goes in (the coach)must come out, and with the combined grey/black tank, I don't have to worry about how much black vs how much grey. This should also save space. Does this make sense from most perspectives? Am I missing something here?
I think there was a thread a short time ago about this, but no conclusion that I could draw. |
jmaxwell (66.42.92.22)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 04, 2002 - 11:23 am: | |
35 black, 35 grey (50 each would be great), 65 fresh. Works for approx. 10 days for the 2 of us. Have never been more than a few hours from a dump or water, even BLM has it for long term and even in Mex. u can find both within a day(Yeah, I drink the water). If I'm going to stay put for longer than 1 week, it's to relax, and u can't relax without creature comforts, so find some hook-ups, support the local economy, and enjoy your high dollar rig. On the other hand, seems to me that "boondockers" that still want all their creature comforts are being a little disingenuous. FF is right on with this one, if u are a true boondocker at heart, u should not need all the conveniences of home, and for that matter, not even want them. Personally, Jerimiah Johnson I ain't, since my Conastoga is powered by a team of 320, pushing from the rear. |
Bradd B. Smith (Bbsrtbusproject) (208.26.165.188)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 04, 2002 - 7:10 pm: | |
It always seems to be about use. What are you trying to do. You can't take it all with you. The week boondock stay is a good yardstick. I know a guy who has a pickupbed trailer that he has a 120 fresh and a 120 black he hauls out for extended trips like Gary is talking about. Uses the fresh as he needs it and dumps everything on the way back in a dump. He uses a macerator pump, see F.F.'s thread on them. So it can be done with a little thinking. Has a topper on it and a little extra storage. I am going to use 100 fresh-65 black. Will probably put in a 50 grey collector to catch the grey and flush the black. Overkill, but medium overkill. I also have the room. Again I agree that a week is a good "standard". And as far as "simple conversion" for most of us, myself included, it isn't. F.F.'s right, what are you trying to do? |
Merlin Moon (Mrmerlin) (65.24.96.77)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 04, 2002 - 8:42 pm: | |
We are designing for one week of self-containment. Like others, I have been wondering what really is the conventional wisdom of true self-containment consumption. I've made some crude experiments on how much water is used in a quick but adequate shower and then tossed in some numbers for tooth brushing, toilet flushing, dish washing, and cooking. Being liberal, the numbers come up with 12 gallons for two people per day. This means we need about 84 gallons for a week of solitude. My utility bay space is able to accomodate two 143 gallon tanks and if I only stuffed in two 84 gallon tanks, the space saved would not really be usable for much. Sooo ... in goes some overkill ... with about 40% more tank than needed. Light bulb !!! I don't really need to fill up the freshwater tank and drag around all that weight while traveling ... just fill up where convenient and near the destination dry camping location.
I just removed three stainless steel tanks that were in the realm of 210 gallons each. Talk about overkill !!! The tanks themselves are way too heavy. I'm replacing with poly tanks and the weight savings will make my old bus happy. |
Peter Broadribb (Madbrit) (170.215.37.27)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 05, 2002 - 1:12 am: | |
Just a point to ponder, has anyone any actual facts and figures on what it costs in fuel to carry 210 galls of fresh over 100 and have grey and black tanks like Richard's of 140 and 70 galls over other owner's 70 and 35 gall tanks?
I would doubt it is very much and when you consider how much more basement storage there is in a 40ft bus over a 30ft stick-n-staple, basically a minumum of one full bay over none or very little, then what is all the fuss about having to have the smallest tanks you "can get away with". Our Apollo has 65 fresh and 35 black and 45 grey and we can get away with 7 days, but why? I am out to enjoy myself, so I am going to install tanks similar in size what Richard has because when I go away for a week or so, the last thing I want is to be worrying about that extra pint of water I used in the shower or where the next dump station is. I will have better things to look forward to, namely driving my bus and the places I will be visiting, and that does NOT include the next dump station........ LOL. |
Steven Gibbs (12.148.43.6)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 05, 2002 - 6:53 am: | |
Doug,
IMO, based on having camping units with both combined and separate holding tanks, the best way to go is with a separate system.
First, when in an RV park with sewer hookups you can let your grey water flow until you feel the need to dump the black tank. Then, simply close the grey line and build up a few gallons of soapy water. Then when you dump you flush the line (and the sewer trap) with the grey water.
Second, unless you use Xylene to wash your dishes, grey water is neither chemically or biologically hazardous and can be dumped just about anywhere that the ground will absorb the flow. Obviously, we must be much more prudent as to how we dispose of black water.
Finally, for guests that don't quite understand the need for conservation, you will not have to awake after just one day to the fact that your fresh water is empty and the combined tank is full thus putting your toilet out of commission until you can dump. We have learned to live with just about other system off-line, but a disfunctional toilet pretty much screws up the trip.
Steve
MC-9
Pontiac, MI |
Doug (207.168.128.228)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 05, 2002 - 2:52 pm: | |
Thanks Steve and all the others. I am still on the fence, but I am now leaning toward the separate tanks. My boondocking is still not efined, but the cost of the extra capacity vs the space used (planning on converting an MC9) doesn't seem to make a lot of sense.
Let me see - 100 FW, 75 grey and 40 black. That should about do it I guess. |
FAST FRED (63.208.81.202)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 06, 2002 - 1:19 am: | |
It is fairly easy to use a combined tank that is plumbed with a Grey take off before the tank.
This will alow the long hookup sits with 24/7 water use , and only an ocasional pull at the black handle (after its full).
You might check out
http://www.phrannie.org/phredex.html
for some ideas on RV in general and waste systems.
FAST FRED |
Henry R. Bergman, Jr. (Henryofcj) (63.224.197.10)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 23, 2002 - 8:05 pm: | |
Fred, I simply can not believe that only 1 to 3 gallons of fresh water per day per person for boating people is considered normal by todays standards.
Heck, 200 years ago in the British and American sailing navys, one gallon of water per crewman per day for ALL purposes was considered normal routine WITHOUT rationing.
Are you saying that the cilivan (and usually $rich$) boating public today enjoy the same draconian standards of water rationing as over two centuries ago?---on the lower decks?
I don't know about you guys, but I enjoy my comforts. They have not come $easily$ and I want to continue having them, regardless of where I am or what I am driving.
Thus the plan for the 100% diesel electric coach with ZERO propane and a MINIMUM of 200 gallons of fresh water capacity---250 gallons or 1000 liters would be better. Are we having fun yet? Thanks. |
Ace (24.28.44.126)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 23, 2002 - 10:09 pm: | |
I couldn't agree more Henry!
Happy Bussin'
Ace |
FAST FRED (63.208.82.13)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 24, 2002 - 6:23 am: | |
There are boats and Boats , the marine motorist that runs from dock/resturant to dock /resturant probably WILL use 200G of water a day .
However the physics of craft have not changed since Bournelli , and the folks foing on an Ocean Passage in a small (under 50ft) boat do have to consider water use.
Remember that the 1 gal per day per man was the ususl minimum , having 300% more is not a problem .
FAST FRED |
Don KS/TX (64.24.4.19)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 24, 2002 - 8:08 am: | |
I think this whole boondocking angle of buses has been blown way out of scale. It appears we go out of our way for the "bigger is better" in that respect, and then find we never use it anyway. I chuckle sometimes when reading the design criteria that some are coming up with, yet they are highway cruisers, who never spend a night out of a 50amp connection in a campground. A lot like the "four wheel drive" crowd in Las Vegas, who never get off the blacktop, and never see snow.
In regards to the original question, I believe Fred is on the right track, I have 150 gal tanks, and have filled the fresh up in the fall for my trek to Texas, and 6 months later drain almost all of it back out after carrying it a few thousand miles round trip. Crazy, a pair of 30 gallon tanks would do quite as well. Water and dump stations are everywhere! Even in the desert at Quartzsite there are potty pumpers and fresh water trucks. With a low ground clearance, 40 foot bus with a 27 foot wheelbase and large turning radius, romping thru the forests and fields ain't gonna happen, not for me, nor do I see others doing it either. |
Peter Broadribb (Madbrit) (170.215.33.129)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 24, 2002 - 1:47 pm: | |
Since no one has answered my earlier question of how much it actually costs to carry 250 galls against 50 galls. There is obviously not a significant difference, otherwise those converters and RVers who are always going on about the costs of everything, would have those figures on the tips of their tongues.
I see lots of people fretting over the use of bay space, think how little bay space there is/was on a stick-n-staple RV. Normally none, so anything is a bonus, and unless they are fulltiming, why are they carrying all that stuff with them anyway?
As I said before, we "got away" with using small amounts of water, but why? If I am going away for a week or two, the last thing I want to do is to be dumping tanks every few days. I want to enjoy my trip and using a dumpsite is NOT my idea of fun, it is a neccessary evil to go hand in hand with my freedom of seeing this wonderful country my way.
My wife and I can go through 30 galls in two days if we want. If we are at a racetrack, often we want a quick shower twice a day, especially if it is really dusty or humid and we are visiting at a nice restaurant in the evening. Boon docking at Quartzsite is a different thing, where lots of people are being conservative with their water useage and you can often tell who is and who isn't....... LOL.
The four wheelers are the same in any major town, there are the ones that do and the ones that just pose, bit like the hot rod Camaro that has never seen the dragstrip. It's just the look they want, not neccessarily the action. Bit like the bus converstions that have all the black wood corian and fancy lights against the old 50's greyhound which is bare bones. It's what the individual wants and can afford. That is the wonderful thing about this hobby, we do it our way, and I am sticking to my big tanks and my big genset, so there......... LOL
Peter. |
Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy) (66.190.119.82)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 25, 2002 - 8:28 am: | |
Pete, I am with you 150%. I have never used all my 210 gallons of fresh water, but I have always taken a shower when I wanted and never particularly worried about water conversion. If I have to limit myself to one or three gallons a day, then I will just stay home.
Richard |
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