| Author | Message | ||
| Paul Lawry (Dreamscape)
Registered Member Username: Dreamscape Post Number: 352 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 75.93.55.100  Rating: N/A |
I read the other thread on Maxi's, so instead of hijacking that one I thought it would be best to start this one. I have a 1968 Eagle 01 that has one bad DD-3 chamber, assume the diaphragm is shot. After finding out what new DD-3's cost and the cost of the diaphragm I'm looking into switching over to spring brakes. I could buy lots of diesel for the differance. My question is this, has anyone done this on their Eagle 01? If not would it be close to assume that other bus brands would be similar for the conversion? Thanks, Paul (Message edited by dreamscape on October 10, 2008) (Message edited by dreamscape on October 10, 2008) | ||
| Jim Wilke (Jim Bob) (Pd41044039)
Registered Member Username: Pd41044039 Post Number: 321 Registered: 2-2001 Posted From: 69.77.156.190 Rating: N/A |
Paul, are you sure you actually have DD3s? I have an '87 Eagle that has spring brakes from factory but Eagle engineered them so they act like DD3s. That is, after you release the park brake, you have to make a full pressure application to release the brakes. They did this with an extra relay type valve. | ||
| Paul Lawry (Dreamscape)
Registered Member Username: Dreamscape Post Number: 354 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 75.93.55.100 Rating: N/A |
Jim, Yes, I'm sure. I have three hoses, not two like on spring brakes. At least I think that information is correct. My manual does say DD-3 was used on the 01. How many hoses are on yours? Do you have a part number? I talked with Dan at Silver Eagle and they do not have DD-3's, he did not mention anything about what you are referring to. Another fellow I talked with said that spring brakes on a highway coachs are not recommended. He had a terrible time when one of his failed and stopped in the middle of an interstate. He says he has 50 years of experience with highway coaches. | ||
| Jim Wilke (Jim Bob) (Pd41044039)
Registered Member Username: Pd41044039 Post Number: 324 Registered: 2-2001 Posted From: 69.77.156.190 Rating: N/A |
Mine have two hoses. Other than the cost of a new one, there's not really any problem with DD3s. I rebuilt both rear DD3s on a 4905 I had. It's pretty stratightforward. Just be sure to go through the unit & make sure everything is clean, lubed & not worn out. Don't just "slap in a new diaphragm". By the way, the unit that was failed on my bus had been exchanged. They had installed a left one on the right side (mirror image units on 4905) which caused the drain holes to be on top instead of the bottom so the unit filled up with water which couldn't get out. As with everything make sure you get the right stuff if you exchange or have them rebuilt. Mark them R & L just to be on the safe side. | ||
| Paul Lawry (Dreamscape)
Registered Member Username: Dreamscape Post Number: 355 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 75.93.55.100 Rating: N/A |
I do understand that RH and LH are differant. I will def do one at a time so as not to confuse anything, and mark everything for re-assembly. That is if I go that route. I'm still debating and doing research on changing to spring brakes. The jury is still out. | ||
| John and Barb Tesser (Bigrigger)
Registered Member Username: Bigrigger Post Number: 104 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 24.179.147.233  Rating: N/A |
Paul, You don't say exactly what your problem is with your dd3's, but if its leaking air (which is what mine was doing), take it apart first. I had ordered the new diaphrams first ( a dd3 has two) for $185 dollars and after taking it apart found it was the o-rings that sealed the shaft that were leaking and the diaphrams looked like new. Replaced the o-rings and cleaned things up and they work fine now. I saved the diaphrams in case I need some at some point. Good luck with your project. | ||
| Paul Lawry (Dreamscape)
Registered Member Username: Dreamscape Post Number: 356 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 75.93.55.100 Rating: N/A |
John, Yes it is leaking air, it appears to be a bad diaphragm. I have not taken them apart as I am trying to determine which way to go. I have prices on diaphragm kits and complete new ones. I have been told now would be a good time to upgrade to a new style spring brake, because of the fact parts and replacements are readily available and much cheaper. That is where my decision lies. Your post brings up some good and valid points to consider, Thanks | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1215 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.110.9  Rating: N/A |
I bought the pieces to rebuild both my DD3's from Mohawk industries; both diaphrams, rollers. seals. clamp bolts and anything that looked suspect; the can halves wore good. About $250 for all the parts when rebuilt units are about $450 each. Remember, that if you do a proper job and have an air dryer system, you should never have to touch them again. They aren't hard to rebuild. Just study the information on the Bendix air brake site or look at a GM 4905 shop manual. Same info and pictures. If you go to maxi's, you'll need to change over some valves in the plumbing also, adding more cost to the change over. | ||
| Paul Lawry (Dreamscape)
Registered Member Username: Dreamscape Post Number: 358 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 75.93.55.100 Rating: N/A |
Thanks John, I purchased a Bendix AD9 to install at the same time I do the brakes. I really think that after the last couple of days reading, searching and hearing everyone's opinion I'm going to rebuild what I have. All of you have been great help, Thank You | ||
| larry currier (Larryc)
Registered Member Username: Larryc Post Number: 200 Registered: 2-2007 Posted From: 207.200.116.13 Rating: N/A |
The maxi just needs constant air, controlled from the dash to release the brakes. (one line). The other line comes from the treddle valve and goes to the other port. If you have to change a valve it would just be the park valve at the dash and its an inexpensive truck valve. You may also need a quick release valve (QR1) on the emergency side, also inexpensive and common. | ||
| Moe Hollow (Moehollow)
Registered Member Username: Moehollow Post Number: 59 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 71.102.20.26 Rating: N/A |
Considering that fixing your current DD3's is really not going to be much more expensive that switching systems, and it is a good possibility that you will never have to do it again, why bother changing? | ||
| Paul Lawry (Dreamscape)
Registered Member Username: Dreamscape Post Number: 359 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 75.93.55.100 Rating: N/A |
The first thing that concerned me was the price of new DD-3's. Then other Eagle Owners had switched to spring brakes and said it was a snap to do, and much easier to get replacements. After talking with Norris at Jefferson, by the way he has kits for the DD-3's, I decided to go that route. But like you said Moe, I will probably not have to fool with it again in my lifetime. | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 1371 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 76.68.122.229  Rating: |
My 2 posts from the other board, to round out this thread: Re: Question for DD-3 Experts « Reply #11 on: 2008-10-09, 20:03:10 » Hello Dreamscape. Hold on a minute, on two fronts. First: on the DD3 Did you do the soap spray with the parking brake released and the service brake released? Just to rule out that it isn't the locking port circuit bleeding through. Since the boot is torn, and you are taking it apart anyway, I'd recommend doing the parking diaphragm too, and then it is all done. Second: on a spring brake conversion a spring brake conversion... you might want to think about doing it now. Spring chambers are, give or take, $75 each, less than diaphragms for the DD3. Side question: Will long stroke chambers fit in the space in an Eagle? Off the top of my head, no schematics or studying has been done, in a belt and suspenders world, certainly not according to Hoyle and all those other rules... All bets are off and don't be sicking a lawyer on me.... You might be able to swap the chambers and just plumb it all up with what you have. The line to the locking port on the DD3 connected to the spring portion, (pressurized when underway in both applications) and the service line connected to the service line, (no confusion here) and the parking line terminated (pressurized when parking, not applicable to a spring brake system, not needed) this would function.... wouldn't it? You may have to pause for a moment on release for the spring chambers to fill, as the air would have to travel via the skinny, long and winding road instead of via a relay valve and shorter, bigger passageways.... But it gets you headed in the right direction without spending money on chambers you want to eventually get rid of. To the congregation, before we go running off like free spirits and start converting, what is it that I'm forgetting? Is this a blasphemy or an inspiration? PS, I get first dibs on Paul's old DD3 chambers, if this works! happy coaching! buswarrior Second post: Re: Question for DD-3 to Spring Brakes on an Eagle 01 « Reply #28 on: 2008-10-12, 23:45:36 » oh fiddle faddle. Now that we're this many years deep into litigation hell, I doubt anyone will tell us how to convert, or will say it is a good thing, bad thing, or anything else. We're on our own. Any advice you get, and, I guess to be fair, best to consider mine included, must be regarded with a great deal of scepticism, because just what training or experience has the advice giver had in the realm of brake design? Mechanics, in particular, must NOT be trusted, without some other back-up as to their thoughts. They have been trained, maybe, by whom, only God knows, in parts replacement, not system design!!! Engineers design brake systems, mechanics change the parts when they break. Can anyone remember the keyboard commands for the old Windows 3.1? Well, how many of the guys who worked on the old stuff back when it was in commercial service remember what was what? Even when you did stuff day in and day out, once out of practise, you forget stuff. Don't get me wrong, I'm not talking down on anyone, but just who amongst your classmates in high school was taking auto? A few inspired car nuts, but then a bunch of "others". And now you blindly follow whose words of advice regarding messing with the engineering of the braking system on your coach? Read between the lines further up in this thread, the conversion that went wrong was caused completely by a mechanic who fooled someone into thinking he knew what he was doing, and took his ca$h. Sorry, I'll get off my soapbox, pet peeve of mine, seeing folks getting ripped off by pretenders. Anyway, procrastinator that I am, I have to repair one of my DD3 chambers in the push to prepare for the great journey to Jack's party.... boot was torn, grease zerk broken off, finally beginning to get sloppy on the release... don't ask, I'm signing up for one of those 12 step programs...no, Niles, it's ok, not AA.... With some luck, I have two days this week, so I'll try to get it in the air and start removal. If the new air lines I installed with lots of anti-seize a few years back when I freshened up the inversion valve, parking regulator and the lines, come off cleanly, I'll see if I can plumb up a spring chamber to the existing circuits to see how bad the timing is, set up the way I suggested back there somewhere in this thread. Trying to get to the bottom of this academic question.....How's that for some motivation to get on with it? For the MCI owners that might be wondering, there is insufficient room to fit a spring chamber in the MC7/8/9, as the configuration of all the axle/suspension/brake components has been chosen taking advantage of the DD3's small size. You will notice that the back of the DD3 is quite close to a suspension part. A spring chamber is fatter in the back half and longer than a DD3. Without welding new brackets elsewhere around the axle circumference, and re-orienting the brake linkage, you can't just swap spring chambers in. And, there's nothing wrong with DD3 or with spring brakes. They are two ways of accomplishing the same goal: the bus doesn't roll away while you are sleeping in it! happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| Paul Lawry (Dreamscape)
Registered Member Username: Dreamscape Post Number: 361 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 75.93.55.100 Rating: N/A |
I installed the Bendix AD-9 air dryer past couple of days. So now at least I will have dry air. Now for the chambers. I'm still waiting for results on the information changing from DD-3's to spring brakes before I make a final decision. I am really leaning on rebuilding what I have. If I stay with DD-3's they will outlast my lifetime. (Message edited by dreamscape on October 17, 2008) (Message edited by dreamscape on October 17, 2008) | ||
| Paul Lawry (Dreamscape)
Registered Member Username: Dreamscape Post Number: 376 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 75.93.55.100 Rating: N/A |
I received the information on changing over to Spring Brakes from DD-3's. This was designed for an 05 Eagle but I'm sure that it will work for other coaches. I will post exactly the parts that I will use after I have finished my project. My 01 is differant than the 05 that this conversion was designed for. The usual disclaimer, I will not be held responsible for any installation done by you or another party, this is for illustration purposes only. Click Here (Message edited by dreamscape on November 07, 2008) (Message edited by dreamscape on November 07, 2008) | ||
| Paul Lawry (Dreamscape)
Registered Member Username: Dreamscape Post Number: 378 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 75.93.55.100 Rating: N/A |
OK boys, the parties over, I get to get down and dirty now! My parts arrived yesterday, now I will see for myself how hard it is to get the old DD-3's off. Decided to go with the Spring Brake chambers and assorted new valving. This way I will have an updated brake system, also changing from single to dual. (Message edited by dreamscape on November 08, 2008) |
