| Author | Message | ||
| Arthur J Griffith (Arthurseagle)
Registered Member Username: Arthurseagle Post Number: 55 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 72.236.102.174 Rating: |
I just went through a agervating time removing all of my wheels (alum) to replace with new. All went well until I got to the drive and bogie on the drivers side. Someone must have fallen asleep with an impact wrench in their hand. I finally was able to remove all of the nuts except three inside cap nuts on the drive. I worked for days trying to break those nuts, beating, heating, and impacting over and over until the cap nuts looked like mushrooms. They finally broke loose. Thank God. In talk with a friend of mine who works on and repairs heavy equipment and large trucks, says that he always uses Anti Seize on all of the lug nuts that he puts back on. THE QUESTION IS: What are the pros and cons of of using Anti Seize on the lug nuts? For some reason I always had in my mind that they should be torqued back on dry. Your comments on this subject would be greatly appreciated. THANKS Arthur | ||
| Tom Christman (Tchristman)
Registered Member Username: Tchristman Post Number: 25 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.218.33.156 Rating: N/A |
Always use Anti Seize-or do I need to remind you of your recent experience without it? Good Luck, TomC | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Registered Member Username: Niles500 Post Number: 871 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.180.124.221 Rating: |
THIS IS A QUOTE FROM LUKE - Not to be taken lightly Hi Folks and Happy New Year!!!! There is some poor info. being fed into this thread which has to be corrected, in my opinion. I just went out into my shop and grabbed the first 2 maintainence manuals that my fingers touched and here is what I found!!!! GMC"S RTS Manual C7921A on page 10-1 states, and CAPS are intentional, by me: SEE THAT STUDS AND NUTS ARE FREE OF GREASE OR OIL. DO NOT USE OIL ON STUDS OR NUTS. From MCI's MC-8 Manual 3R-15-413, page 15-2, and CAPS are intentional, by me: WHEEL STUDS AND NUTS MUST BE KEPT FREE OF GREASE OR OIL. NO LUBRICANT, WHATSOEVER SHOULD BE USED. For those reading this Board who are just learning and want to be properly informed, I hope that FACT, as presented by bus manufacturers, will convince you to carry out proper procedures on your coach!!!! Your life, and that of those around you on the highway, could depend upon it!!!! Happy & SAFE!! Bussin to ALL. LUKE at US COACH | ||
| Tony LEE (T_lee)
Registered Member Username: T_lee Post Number: 34 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 121.222.163.94 Rating: N/A |
But MCI also say that if lubrication IS needed to prevent binding, use engine oil on just the first couple of threads. Do not get it on the tapers. | ||
| John and Barb Tesser (Bigrigger)
Registered Member Username: Bigrigger Post Number: 105 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 24.179.147.233  Rating: N/A |
As a truck owner-operator, I had used anti-sieze on wheels many times in the past. But there was a good article a couple years back in Fleet Owners, that spoke to the issue. Here's the link http://fleetowner.com/equipment/tiretracks/fleet_debunking_myth/ | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Registered Member Username: Niles500 Post Number: 872 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.180.124.221 Rating: N/A |
Tony - some manufacturers allow for what you have said - and additionaly some Man. of Hub piloted wheels when using two piece flange nuts allow for lube between the nut and flange washer - but no Man. allows for the use of anti-sieze on any type wheel - FWIW (Message edited by niles500 on October 19, 2008) | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 309 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 75.109.30.207 Rating: N/A |
get the breaker bars and pipe out guys and lets do it right......again. I never soaked mine down, however I did use it on the first threads. Anti-sieze that is. gomer | ||
| joe padberg (Joemc7ab)
Registered Member Username: Joemc7ab Post Number: 302 Registered: 6-2004 Posted From: 66.38.159.33 Rating: N/A |
I have a busted stud as a reminder laying around, full of copper coloured antiseize. Not only one, but two others were broken at the same time. Joe. | ||
| joe padberg (Joemc7ab)
Registered Member Username: Joemc7ab Post Number: 303 Registered: 6-2004 Posted From: 66.38.159.33 Rating: N/A |
I have a busted stud as a reminder laying around, full of copper coloured antiseize. Not only one, but two others were broken at the same time. Joe. | ||
| Wayne Ellenburg (Wlnburg)
Registered Member Username: Wlnburg Post Number: 23 Registered: 6-2008 Posted From: 12.201.101.247  Rating: N/A |
As a newbe you can imagine my frustration when I decided to change the rusted wheel simulators and tried to get the wheels off. After trying everything I finally borrowed a torque multiplier and it was still quite a job, but getting the lug nut off was a breeze. Even worn nuts. Having the correct tool is a plus. | ||
| Mel La Plante (Mel_4104)
Registered Member Username: Mel_4104 Post Number: 87 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 205.250.180.148 Rating: N/A |
99.5% of the trouble that we have taking off wheels is caused by not tourqing the nuts properly. how many of you have seen some guy putting a wheel on by putting on the nuts finger tight the running bown the nuts as far as they will go with the ratchet, then pick up a 4-5 ft. length of pipe ,slides it over the ratchet and leans on the end of the pipe until he has to bounce on it and does all the nuts the same way. when asked if he is going to tourqe them he will say that he weighs 200 pd. and he knows how much weight he put on the bar to be equeal to 550#. well i had a fellow do his that way and when he was finished i put the tourqe wrench on them and they ranged from 375# to 825# so we took them all off and did them with a tourqe wrench properly and when we checked them 2 weeks later after 300 miles of driving only 1 nut was out to 530# a always ask them to be tourqed proper. this is done by putting the nuts on finger tight to the wheel,now set the tourqe wrench to 350#and tighten all the nuts to this setting being sure to criss cross so you do no get a wheel of center, now put the setting to 550# and bring them to this setting , and lastly go around the wheel and check they are all done. the next time you have to remove the wheel it should be easy. | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 1373 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 76.71.102.189  Rating: N/A |
Yup, torque them properly, and, don't leave the wheels on for years. Pull the wheels annually, to get better access for your careful deep inspection of the brakes, suspension, steering, frame and whatever else, and so that the wheels will come off when you need them to. Install all fasteners, wheels included, according to the maintenance manual. Why is it that paid "mechanics" seem to have so much trouble with the written word? happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| Keith Wood (Ft6)
Registered Member Username: Ft6 Post Number: 49 Registered: 8-2008 Posted From: 71.198.253.223 Rating: N/A |
The three causes of problems getting lug nuts off are A), corrosion, B), overtorquing and C), heat-cycle "self-welding). Anti-seize is designed to prevent C, and to an extent, A. The only solution to B is for the mechanic to know the right specs and to follow them. If you don't use anti-seize, you can reduce A and C by pulling the wheels every year (as suggested above), wirebrushing the studs and using a thread chaser on the nuts. To really help with corrosion, pack the stud threads with silicone glue, then put on the nuts, tighten them, and put a bead of silicone glue around the exposed threads. This seals out moisture, but poses pretty much no resistance when it's time to pull the wheels again. | ||
| J.L.Vickers (Roadrunnertex)
Registered Member Username: Roadrunnertex Post Number: 45 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 69.34.189.230 Rating: N/A |
Well Folks, I use anti-seize on all of the Budd's wheel nut's on my P8M4905A and I also use a torque wrench to properly torque the Budd nut's. I also own a torque multiplier and have had to change a tire and wheel assembly or two along side of the road. With the torque multiplier and a 4 way wheel nut wrench the job goes very smooth. I use a very small amount of Anti-seize on each stud and torque to what the GMC maintenance manual states 500 to 550 ft pounds. jlv | ||
| Bill Gerrie (Bill_gerrie)
Registered Member Username: Bill_gerrie Post Number: 204 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 209.50.72.2 Rating: N/A |
Right on Mel. Do it the way Mel explained and you will never have a problem removing the nuts anytime. If the wheel won't break free from the drum just loosen the nuts a little and move the coach to break the rust bond then the wheels will come off. I always carry a torque wrench and check the torque now and again. Bill | ||
| Jim Wilke (Jim Bob) (Pd41044039)
Registered Member Username: Pd41044039 Post Number: 335 Registered: 2-2001 Posted From: 69.77.156.190 Rating: N/A |
I agree with Mel and J.L. Vickers. I use just a very light touch of the silver stuff, only on the stud, never on anything that contacts the wheel. I install the nuts exactly as Mel states. And as careful as I try to be, ie: no stopping in the middle of a wheel installation, I still find that every once in a while I have missed the final torque on a nut which is caught on that last go round he describes. I have never had a wheel come loose from anything I installed. I have had a wheel on a travel trailer break the studs which had been installed by a gorilla with a rattle gun. (Those studs were dry but tightened to about twice the torque.) Oh, and the last time a "professional" mobile tire guy installed tires on our Eagle, 8oo miles later 8 of the 10 inner lugs on the right side duals were loose. If I had not had to remove the wheel due to a slow leak, they would have soon come off. (By the way, no Never Sieze there either, yet.) My experience in 40 years of things with wheels is that under or over tightening is what causes the studs to fail, not a small amount of lubricant. I now carry a 1" air wrench and a 3/4" torque wrench on board & install my own wheels. Nobody knows how to do anything right anymore! (end of rant) | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1219 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.110.9  Rating: N/A |
One of the problems in using antiseize or any lubricant is that you are reducing the friction being generated between the stud and nut. Therefore unless you reduce the torque applied, you are overtorquing the nuts and stretching the threads and stud. How much should you reduce the torque? who knows. A good explanation is listed under high performance connecting rod bolts and studs manufactured by ARP on their site. The other problem is reusing bolts and nuts that has previously had antiseize applied and not thoroughly cleaned to remove all the old partially dried coating and dirt particles that imbed in the fine threads. These tend to wear out the threads causing the nuts to frequently strip. Every trucking magazine that deals with maintenance do not endorse antiseize on wheel nuts or studs that I've read over 20 years. Commercial Carrier Journal, Fleet Owner, Heavy Duty Trucking, etc to name three. Oh, and rust streaks at wheel nuts indicate looseness or a crack in the wheel surface at the hole from overtorquing or running with a few wheel nuts loose causing the remaining tight nuts to try to hold all the load on the wheel. overtorquing also rounds out and enlarges the tapered hole. | ||
| Debbie and Joe Cannarozzi (Joe_camper)
Registered Member Username: Joe_camper Post Number: 117 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 71.239.202.82 Rating: N/A |
This could be a good challenge at a rally. Who can take a 1 inch impact and most closely and equally correctly tighten a tire. I have a 1 inch gun and power it with a portable gas engine powered compressor. I have been installing tires on my Pete for 12 years with it and also do the bus with the same. I have developed a rhythm for how long to stay on the trigger after tight and I have never had a wheel come loose or had one too hard to come off. I have done hundreds of tires with these tools. I have never checked with a torque wrench. My curiosity has got the best of me and I think I now will (I must admit I am pretty confident it is pretty close, we will see). I do not ever use anti-seize it becomes a dirt magnet. When you encounter a stubborn nut for an inner duel STRIKE IT FIRMLY with a small sledge hammer on the square head at 90degree from the stud first on one side and then the other, try to loosen again and repeat the process till it comes. | ||
| Bruce Henderson (Oonrahnjay)
Registered Member Username: Oonrahnjay Post Number: 283 Registered: 8-2004 Posted From: 72.12.39.78  Rating: N/A |
Thank you to those who added such good info on this subject to the thread. I like the idea of a little drop of oil on the line between the nut and threads *after* the nut is on and torqued correctly, but -- after reading -- I won't be using anti-seize (or any other lubricant) on the thread on wheel studs on my bus. | ||
| Mel La Plante (Mel_4104)
Registered Member Username: Mel_4104 Post Number: 90 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 205.250.177.39 Rating: N/A |
while we are talking about never seize it is great stuff when working with copper fittings or even steel, just swab it on and tighten them up, they will not shake loose and will come apart much easier years later with out all that corrosion. i have found that the fittings go together much easier and have far fewer leaks and no thread seal is required as the lub factor it gives lets it tighten better and the friction factor makes a better seal. | ||
| Arthur J Griffith (Arthurseagle)
Registered Member Username: Arthurseagle Post Number: 56 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 72.236.102.184 Rating: N/A |
SORRY- I have not responded to say THANKS to everyone who has commented on my question about anti-seizing. For some reason my computer has refused to log onto this sight. Obviously the majority opinion was Not to Anti-seize. Secial thanks to Luke and Bigrigger for the Fleet Owner Article. Friday I finished putting Axle seals in the drives, replaced the studs with new and longer ones, and have new cap nuts and outside lug nuts for the entire bus. I feel safer already. I'm going to sleep well tonight. THANKS again to everyone who responded. ARTHUR | ||
| Bruce Henderson (Oonrahnjay)
Registered Member Username: Oonrahnjay Post Number: 292 Registered: 8-2004 Posted From: 72.12.39.78 Rating: N/A |
Off topic, kinda but now that we've established that I should torque dry, what torque should I use. It's not listed in my workshop manual. Studs are 7/8" (1 1/4" socket size). Any help appreciated. BH NC USA | ||
| Mel La Plante (Mel_4104)
Registered Member Username: Mel_4104 Post Number: 95 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 205.250.186.179 Rating: N/A |
not knowing your bus what i would do is go to the good local tire shop that does large trucks and ask them or if there is a transit bus repair yard in your area ask them. on my 4104 i set mine down to 550# but the nuts on mine are 1 1/2". what size tires do you have ? | ||
| Bruce Henderson (Oonrahnjay)
Registered Member Username: Oonrahnjay Post Number: 293 Registered: 8-2004 Posted From: 72.12.39.78 Rating: N/A |
Mel wrote: "not knowing your bus what i would do is go to the good local tire shop that does large trucks and ask them or if there is a transit bus repair yard in your area ask them." Don't think I'll get much help from them but it's a good place to start. "on my 4104 i set mine down to 550# but the nuts on mine are 1 1/2". what size tires do you have ?" They're 11R22.5 tires. Oh, and the studs are Whitworth thread. I found a manual for a similar bus (same size threads and tires) and it calls for 250 lbs/ft. That sounds pretty low to me. |
