| Author | Message | ||
| Grant Thiessen (Busshawg)
Registered Member Username: Busshawg Post Number: 57 Registered: 10-2007 Posted From: 206.45.93.160  Rating: N/A |
I'm trying to mount my 10 gallon LP hot water tank in the same rear compatment as my water tanks. The idea is to utilize he heat from it to keep the water tanks/lines from freezing. My problem is that the hot water tank need to be vented, this will cause cold air to enter the compartment. Just looking for some ideas as to what to do. The hot water tank can easily be moved at this point. The rear comaprtment is insulated. Have fun! Thanks in advance Grant | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 315 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 71.55.193.233 Rating: N/A |
Grant; I thought about using an lp heater and after much thought I decided to go with electric. the reason is normally you will have a gen running when parked,or hooked up to shore power. You don't use it on the road due to,my thinking, safety, and lastly, no fumes to worry about getting around where you don't want them. So it will not run out of gas just when you need to rinse off in the shower LOL. Now you won't have to worry about air holes to cut in the side of the coach. gomer | ||
| Debbie and Joe Cannarozzi (Joe_camper)
Registered Member Username: Joe_camper Post Number: 119 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 71.239.202.82 Rating: |
Well isn't it vented totally from the acess panel that is accessed from the outside. How would you cut that opening in the compartment door???? It probably needs to go somewhere in the cabin so the opening you cut is in a stationary location not in a door that needs to open and close. As for heating the plumbing bay do both an automotive heater core with a 12 volt fan with a switch on the control panel for when you are driving and a small electric thermostatically controlled heater for when 120 volt a/c is available. Another source of heat would be a Webasto or Pro-Heat unit. | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 366 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.211.142.170 Rating: N/A |
I'm with Gomer on this. We used a Force 10 Marine 11 Gallon Electric; have it plummed in to the engine/heater loop. Use Electric only when "parked" overnight; then turn it on when we run the Genset...about 45 minutes...or less...does the trick. When running the Webasto for heat, it also heats the water in the WH. FWIW  RCB | ||
| Debbie and Joe Cannarozzi (Joe_camper)
Registered Member Username: Joe_camper Post Number: 120 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 71.239.202.82 Rating: |
We too have a Raritan marine 10gal electric with a heat exchanger that uses heat from the engine coolant. I did not suggest that aspect cause it seemed like he wanted some suggestions for the component he already had. Many of the Prevo conversions like ours are ALL electric campers and I think that is bad. Luckily we have an older one with a propane fridge and stove and we love it. This facilitates only 1 2000w inverter instead of 2 LARGE ones and the ability to also save money with the battery capacity not to mention the need for a much smaller generator. One could take a propane water heater and install an electric heating element in the drain plug hole to add redundancy and the propane feature would go miles towards boon-docking efficiency. While I'm on this rant if propane is on board and you are building it from scratch I would also prefer propane furnaces over our e-spar (webasto). It is way less complicated and expensive and is much easier troubleshooted and repair parts and suppliers more abundant. | ||
| David Dulmage (Daved)
Registered Member Username: Daved Post Number: 220 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 142.46.199.30  Rating: N/A |
We have a 10 gal. propane water heater with an electric heating element. Ours is installed on the driver's side in the middle bay. The tank is well insulated. I don't think it would radiate a sufficent amount of heat. FWIW | ||
| Harold Bell (Hnbell)
Registered Member Username: Hnbell Post Number: 14 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 24.108.73.89 Rating: |
Which bay are your tanks in if they are in the rear bay you can vent into the wheelwell with a cover over the vent pipe I have a propane hot water on demand works fine | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 601 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 207.231.75.253 Rating: N/A |
Grant, We're short a little information here, as to what you mean by a "10 gal LP hot water tank." If you mean a RV style LP water heater, it is mounted on the inside of an outside wall, and vented to the outside only. They do not let any air into the vehicle. As they are somewhat insulated, I don't feel there would be enough heat loss from the heater to warm an entire bay. So, most of these type water heaters are mounted inside the bus, with the outside part installed in a stationary panel. One other thing to consider, before rushing to electric only. Electric resistance heat produces 3.41BTU per Watt, so a 1500 Watt electric heater will only produce 5118BTU, while consuming about 13 Amps at 120VAC. Then when you consider that most RV LP water heaters are rated about 30,000BTU input, and are about 80% effficient, it becomes obvious that a propane heater has 5 times the capacity of an electric. IMNSHO, use either an LP or a diesel heater as your main heat source. An electric element added in is fine, especially if free shore power is available. If you're worried about freezing pipes, you're going to need block heat also. Plumb your gen cooling water in parallel with your DD, and a coolant/water heat exchanger, and you arrive with free hot water. HTH, George | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 604 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 207.231.75.253 Rating: N/A |
Well, here goes again! CARBON MONOXIDE IS COLORLESS, ODORLESS, AND IS ABSORBED BY PEOPLE'S LUNGS IN PREFERENCE TO OXYGEN BY AT LEAST A FACTOR OF TWENTY! Venting a water heater, furnace, or generator under a bus is DEADLY!!!!! The reason RV water heaters and furnaces have chrome or white painted doors and vents is because they are made to be mounted IN THE OPEN AIR, where they can be seen, on the outside vertical walls of buses, where the combustion products are free to rise and be blown away. Not to mention that the heater is also able to draw in 100% fresh air, which reduces the CO output. Recycling combustion products (vent in a wheel well, under a cover) will greatly increase the CO output percentage! Then the warm exhaust rises up under the bedroom? This was a bad thing to do, dangerous advice to give, and an installation contrary to the manufacturer's instructions! Sorry, but we want you to wake up alive! George | ||
| Chuck Newman (Chuck_newman)
Registered Member Username: Chuck_newman Post Number: 273 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 76.246.254.144 Rating: N/A |
Grant, I agree with George on all issues. That said, since you already have a 10 gal LPG unit, I had the same space issue to deal with. I'm installing mine under the kitchen sink. It will take up about 60% of the space, which is OK as my under sink cabinets tend to be junk collection spots. The up side is the sink is close to the bathroom so almost instant hot water. Think about behind cabinets, under sinks, under refer, under drawers, in base of closet, dead space, etc. I saw a photo of a buser who installed one mounted on the bay door, with full size access hole. It vented to the outside, no air flow to the bay inside. I think it was a cafe style door. It looked like too much metal work to me, unless you're into that. Plus as George said, the radiated heat into the bay would be next to nothing -- as they are designed to be. | ||
| Keith Wood (Ft6)
Registered Member Username: Ft6 Post Number: 52 Registered: 8-2008 Posted From: 71.202.200.113 Rating: N/A |
I'm with George on this one. The best place to vent is through the roof. Second best is to the side with NO window in the area within a 45-degree angle each way (in other words 90 degree arc with the center right above the heater). I'm considering a joint chimney for all of my propane-burning stuff. This would be a 6" duct, open at the bottom (for draft) and going through a hole in the roof. | ||
| Don Evans (Doninwa)
Registered Member Username: Doninwa Post Number: 151 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 208.81.157.90  Rating: N/A |
"I'm considering a joint chimney for all of my propane-burning stuff. This would be a 6" duct, open at the bottom (for draft) and going through a hole in the roof." If you leave the bottom open you could see a down draft taking gases out the bottom. Might also give another path for gases reducing the draft though the appliance. Good luck Don 4107 | ||
| Grant Thiessen (Busshawg)
Registered Member Username: Busshawg Post Number: 58 Registered: 10-2007 Posted From: 206.45.93.160 Rating: N/A |
As I thought, excellent advice. The hot water tank is a RV LP unit. It is presetly in the rear luggage compartment with the other water tanks. I have been quite bull headed about trying to leave it in the bottom compartments, mainly because of all the space available. The problem is as Joe said how does one , or does one want to cut a hole in a lower door. I'm thinking probably not. My wife likes her kitchen. However by the sounds of it she might end up with a hot water tank in a cabinet. I also didn't really want to cut through the chair railing inside the wall just because of structeral reasons. I'm also thinking a webasto might be the best for a heat source in the compartment just because it can run even if we don't have A/C power available, also the genset just gives off noise I don't care for. Thank-you George for keeping things in prospective with the warning. It was taken very seroiusly, however for my net dumb question, can a person vent the tank out through the roof by t-ing into the black water vent that goes up throught the roof, or is teh air simply too hot? Then a fresh air intake up through the floor? Don has me wheels spinning. If not, an outside wall it is, where-ever that may be. I'm thinking that's the way it'll be anyway. The rear wheel well has been considered as well but I'd be worried about snow, rain, mud etc. plugging the vent even if I did build some sort of shoud. Thanks alot guys, you may be in this case a life saver! Have fun | ||
| Don Evans (Doninwa)
Registered Member Username: Doninwa Post Number: 152 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 208.81.157.90 Rating: N/A |
"can a person vent the tank out through the roof by tying into the black water vent that goes up through the roof, or is the air simply too hot?" Black tank produces methane. Don't think I would want to tie a flame producing appliance into a pipe that might have methane in it. Don't need that kind of excitement. Good luck Don 4107 | ||
| Harold Bell (Hnbell)
Registered Member Username: Hnbell Post Number: 15 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 24.108.73.89 Rating: N/A |
Those MC6s must have leaky wheels wells must get pretty wet in the bed room traveling in the rain on demand hot water tanks don't come on unless you turn on the water in your sleep . | ||
| Harold Bell (Hnbell)
Registered Member Username: Hnbell Post Number: 16 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 24.108.73.89 Rating: N/A |
Those MC6s must have leaky wheels wells must get pretty wet in the bed room traveling in the rain on demand hot water tanks don't come on unless you turn on the water in your sleep . | ||
| Grant Thiessen (Busshawg)
Registered Member Username: Busshawg Post Number: 59 Registered: 10-2007 Posted From: 206.45.93.160 Rating: N/A |
Thanks for all your help, I have made a hole in the driver's side of the bus to accomidate the hot water tank. It is sitting in the lower kitchen cabinets. Should work well with the exception of having to cut throught the chair rail in the wall which was something I didn't really want to do. Oh well it's done. Thanks | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 609 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 207.231.75.253 Rating: N/A |
Mr. Bell, 1. Knocking another person's bus takes no talent or ability. 2. You have installed your water heater contrary to the manufacturer's installation instructions. 3. Because of that, the installation is dangerous. As I said before, Carbon Monoxide (CO) is absorbed by people's lungs in preference to oxygen by a factor of at least twenty times. Oxygen makes up about 20% of our atmosphere, and is measured in percent. Carbon Monoxide (CO) is measured in PARTS PER MILLION for a reason! Most CO detectors will alarm at 200 ppm after a while, and at 400 ppm after a few minutes. A concentration of a thousand ppm is lethal! As a reference, I think 20% would be 200,000 ppm. By venting your water heater into your wheel well(s), AND partially covering the vent opening to prevent road debris from entering, you have caused your water heater to put out an even higher amount of CO than it normally would. This happens because the combustion air supply and exhaust vent are under the wheel well, with the tires etc in the way causing the heater to take in its own exhaust. In scientific terms, and Latin, mono means one, and di means two. A properly operating fuel-burning appliance produces mostly carbon dioxide (CO2) and water vapor. When you restrict the amount of oxygen available, either by covering the vent, OR BY TAKING IN THE COMBUSTION AIR FROM AN ENCLOSED AREA THAT IS ALREADY LOW ON OXYGEN AND HIGH ON CO2, there aren't enough oxygen molecules available to attach two to each carbon molecule. So you only get one oxygen molecule with each carbon, or Carbon MONoxide, and sooty yellow flame. They sell lots of CO detectors, because it is so deadly. #7337 (it was 337 in Canada)wants an apology from you for being falsely accused of having a leaky floor. (Humor) Catch 22 applies here also. (If you didn't know it was wrong to do it that way, I guess you didn't know it was wrong to post it?) Admittedly this isn't a very nice post, but this is SERIOUS stuff! From your two posts above, I guess you have to be asleep to turn on your water heater? ( I have been a licensed heating and air contractor for over 17 years now, and would like to think I have learned at least a little about installing furnaces and/or water heaters on a daily basis!) George | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 610 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 207.231.75.253 Rating: N/A |
Grant, There is no such thing as a dumb question! Seriously! The post immediately above is great testimony to what happens when you don't ask. You have never been told here that you (or anybody else) asked too many questions... So, ask!!! The immediate answer to your above question is NO. Much too hot, flammable gases present as Don mentions, and if a trap dried out, which it would do after being exposed to hot exhaust for a while, exhaust in the bus.... Think what would happen if your black tank exploded? It would be kinda funny if you weren't the owner, or parked next to it! Sorry, I just couldn't resist! Good luck, and you're NOT over your question quota! George | ||
| Grant Thiessen (Busshawg)
Registered Member Username: Busshawg Post Number: 60 Registered: 10-2007 Posted From: 206.45.93.160 Rating: N/A |
Thanks George,I appreciate your above comments. I usually don't let words bother me too much , just move on. You'll probably know the answer to my next question then as well. Now that the hot water tank is located under my lower kitchen cabinet can I T the propane line from my stove top to operate the hot water tank? I have run 3/8 propane line up to the stove which would mean I would t off of it , reduce it to 1/4 inch for the tank. Thanks Grant | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 611 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 207.231.75.253 Rating: N/A |
Good morning Grant, A 1/4 inch line is fairly small, but I guess it will work, if the inlet connection on the WH is 1/4, and the run isn't too long? I'm with you on your comments about words. However, I am concerned that silence could be taken as consent. So when something is as dangerous as the above post, I reply, and explain further, without nasty comments. Regards, George | ||
| hojji firemaker (Hojjifiremaker)
Registered Member Username: Hojjifiremaker Post Number: 7 Registered: 4-2008 Posted From: 67.142.162.37  Rating: N/A |
I have a 30 gallon residential style tank water heater IN my coach ( I had a 50 in my last bus), have a cabinet built in the back of the bus over the engine. I vent it with a standard double walled gas vent pipe, storm collar etc..., and necessary roof cap. It works perfectly. My pipes are insulated with reflectix pipewrap. No freezing problems. I have a 85 gallon 2 person 6' bath tub, and the tankless heater I bought wasn't sufficient. Another point... It generates so little heat, it will not generate enough to keep your uninsulated pipes from freezing. The downsides are, the sound of the burner kicking on and off, and the space it requires. Well worth the benefit to me however. |
