| Author | Message | ||
| Roger Baughman (Roger)
Registered Member Username: Roger Post Number: 41 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 69.232.69.94  Rating: |
I am thinking of installing a 110 volt ac to increase the water preasure. I would like to have an idea as to what pump to use. I have two 12 volt dc pumps now and a standard plastic tank with no blatter. Also do I install it between the tank and the existing 12 vdc pumps or between the pumps and the coach? Is there anything else I should know about the installtion? Thanks to all of you for your help. Roger | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 650 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 207.231.75.253 Rating: N/A |
Roger, You will definitely need a BLADDER expansion tank when you do this. IMNSHO, you need one now! Buy one now, maybe waiting only to see what the new and improved smaller size model Gomer is getting information on. Most 120VAC pumps are rotary, and are not self-priming, so put the AC pump after the DCs, then the bladder tank, with the new pressure switch for the ac pump PLUMBED IN RIGHT AT THE TEE WITH THE BLADDER TANK. What size is your mainline piping, what are your present pump pressure switches set at, and are you sure both are running when you are experiencing low flow? Pumps are all rated in flow (GPM) at head pressure, so get one that will give you about 10 GPM at 50 psi? HTH, George | ||
| K.J. Franklin (Slow_rider)
Registered Member Username: Slow_rider Post Number: 26 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 98.204.7.118 Rating: N/A |
Roger, If you want real water pressure, you know, the kind you can use to knock people over, get this: http://www.paulsupply.com/product.asp_Q_intCat_E_666_A_intProd_E_5113_A_sortID_E_1_A_brand ID_E_0 I saw one of these in a Marathon. I was also given one to rebuild if get the hankering. I guess it would be great for when you are on the pole. It will drain a battery bank and a fresh water tank pretty quick I would imagine. Anywho, just something else to think about... Frank | ||
| Tom Christman (Tchristman)
Registered Member Username: Tchristman Post Number: 46 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.218.33.156 Rating: N/A |
I would rethink extra pressure. My system runs at about 40psi and is plenty. More pressure equals more water usage. Which when in an RV park isn't a problem, but when dry camping will use the water faster. I like dry camping-we took a 12 day trip in Aug, and only spent 2 nights in a RV park. Good Luck, TomC | ||
| James Robinson (Jjrbus)
Registered Member Username: Jjrbus Post Number: 178 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 174.150.122.120 Rating: N/A |
The 12V pump should be giving you plenty of pressure and volume. Further inspecton of your system is in order befor changeing. Unless of course you have an RV/firetruck. Jim | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 788 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 208.54.200.46 Rating: N/A |
Roger, With high pressure you may get a bunch of things you don't want, like leaks and busted hoses. 40 psi is plenty, my house system is only 50! As already posted, check out your system for blockages or other problems first. | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 705 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 72.146.79.19  Rating: N/A |
Roger - Gus and James are dead-on. They make pressure "restrictors", to prevent high park pressure from damaging your interior connections (as in flood). What's up with the need for high pressure? 40psi should be more than sufficient! The 12v pump should do the trick, unless the supply tank isn't vented? That pump isn't fighting a vacuum, is it? | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 706 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 72.146.79.19 Rating: N/A |
Oh-Ohhh.... "do I install it between the tank and the existing 12 vdc pumps or between the pumps " Between the pumps? You're using two pumps in series? One pump should be used, not two. egads. | ||
| Roger Baughman (Roger)
Registered Member Username: Roger Post Number: 42 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 69.232.69.94 Rating: N/A |
Thanks guys, I will check the tank for a vent. The preasure seems very low from as the water coming out of the kitchen facuet is very weak. I will check the preasure at several points, after the pumps and before it goes up into the coach and under the sink. If you think that the 12 volt pumps should give me 40 psi that should be plenty. Thanks again to everyone. Roger | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 582 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 66.82.162.12 Rating: N/A |
Pressure is seldom a hassle even with the cheapest 12V pump. VOLUME is the hassle , with a tiny pump you can not take a shower , wash the laundry and run the dishwasher at the same time. If you prefer to multi-task, look at Headhunter or Obendorfer for pumps ,but bring a "boat buck "($1000) not a "Bus buck" ($100). AS a guess the is a restriction in the existing pump supply or output line. FF | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 707 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 68.157.17.181 Rating: |
Re: "If you think that the 12 volt pumps should give me...... " I think.... ....that using TWO (2) pumps instead of the required ONE (1) pump, may be what's giving you the problem. The normal RV pumps have a valve inside that senses the demand for water and turns the thing on or off -on demand-. Forcing water into one or the the other, may be balancing the sensor and preventing the thing from turning on. And forcing water through a pump that's not spinning is going to decrease the volume and pressure. I'd try the simple things first, like removing one pump - - and insuring the tank is properly vented. | ||
| Jack Conrad (Jackconrad)
Registered Member Username: Jackconrad Post Number: 893 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 71.54.29.215 Rating: |
We use 2 12 volt pumps. We have tham connected in parallel not series. With both pumps running we get no increase in pressure, but an increase in volume. If he has his pumps connected in series, that may be the problem. Pump 1 sends 40 PSI water pressure to the second pump (which sees 40 PSI comig in) and does not turn on, creating a restriction to the water flow from pump 1. May not be exactly the same thing, but I remember from Fire School and working for the Fire Dept., our engines had 2 pumps. If connected in series, you increased pressure but not volume. If connected in parallel, you increased volume but not pressure. Jack | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 708 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 68.157.17.181 Rating: |
Jack - I'm assuming Roger's running them in series... Two pumps in series (as with the FD), may work as they should when they don't have an automatic switch that turns them on/off related to the need (based on demand). With the RV types, running them in series would seem to be a useless venture. If he's running them in parallel, then his problem is likely poor venting of the supply tank. (imho) It's really tough, but fun.... to try to solve a problem remotely. We can't see it or touch it, and have to fill in the blanks in an attempt to come up with a solution. But it sure beats cleaning the toilet, ehh? Let us know the final outcome, ehh Roger? | ||
| don goldsmith (Bottomacher)
Registered Member Username: Bottomacher Post Number: 220 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 72.15.86.59 Rating: N/A |
Years ago I saw a water tank vent pipe that had been clogged by a mud dauber (as we called them) wasp. The drawdown on the lightweight metal tank actually collapsed the sides of the tank. It was a beach house, and I expect that the tank was not first quality, but the suction is great on a rather large tank. | ||
| john degemis (Degemis)
Registered Member Username: Degemis Post Number: 31 Registered: 3-2008 Posted From: 71.92.155.232  Rating: N/A |
I like a good shower. So I bought a sureflow extream. It puts out 5.7 GPM at 65 PSI. I plan on using copper pipe with flared fittings. | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 652 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 207.231.75.253 Rating: N/A |
Roger, You haven't told us what your pressure is yet! We need to know two readings, one with no water running, the second with a faucet running full force. We also must know what size of piping you have! Please pay particular attention to Fast Fred's post on expansion tanks. When he says "a place for the water to go when making hot water out of cold," he means it. Water expands when you heat it, RV water pumps have check valves in them, which don't let water flow back into the tank. It is impossible to compress a liquid, so something gives. Either the pressure increases enough to lift the safety valve in the water heater, and drain a half pint of water off slowly, your pumps have a small reservoir, your flexible plastic pipes all expand, or a pump check valve leaks. As said by many others here, the pumps MUST be plumbed in PARALLEL, and John is right on when he speculates that when one pump turns on, it may keep the pressure just high enough to keep the other one from starting. Jack's comments on series vs. parallel are absolutely correct, and as what you are complaining about is lack of flow, parallel is the answer. If your pumps are in series, that's most of your problem. I'm sorry to jump you, but right now, we need answers, not more questions! We don't have a clue what your pump pressure switches are set at now, your whole problem may be cleared by adjusting switches, and adding an expansion tank! Brand name and model numbers of pumps please, immediately followed by pipe size and pressure readings, which will end the rampant speculation. George | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 583 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 69.19.14.24 Rating: N/A |
I plan on using copper pipe with flared fittings. AHH the "best" , but do use 5/8 to increase delivery rates."My way". FF | ||
| don goldsmith (Bottomacher)
Registered Member Username: Bottomacher Post Number: 223 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 72.15.86.59 Rating: N/A |
I'm using 1/2" od type L refrigeration copper and bending as much as possible to eliminate fittings, silver soldering the rest. There is a 3/8" hose barb at the pump, and all the fixtures but the shower are fed by a 3/8" supply tube (normally), so I don't see any advantage to increasing the lines to 5/8 during an average run of ten feet or so. After 35 years with a well at home, I'm not a big advocate of running more water than is needed, so volume is less important to me than pressure. IIRC, Bernoulli says that greater volume equals lower pressure in the line. It reminds me of my neighbors, who used a 5/8" garden hose coupled to their 1/2" supplied hose bibb. Maybe they used more water, but my 1/2" hose sprayed farther. | ||
| Wec4104 (Wec4104)
Registered Member Username: Wec4104 Post Number: 12 Registered: 7-2008 Posted From: 68.46.66.57 Rating: N/A |
"...So I bought a sureflow extream. It puts out 5.7 GPM at 65 PSI. I plan on using copper pipe with flared fittings." John, I saw some postings on a different board about 2-3 months ago where two guys had run into problems with this particular model. Apparently Shureflo had a design defect initially, and had to update this model. It had something to do with the pressure transducer and would cause the unit to run intermittently, or not at all. I don't know the age of your unit, but it is something you might want to watch for. Fortunately, Shureflo has been really good about supporting folks with this problem, and even some out-of-warranty units were replaced free. If memory serves, the newer design has some sort of adjustment screw on the outside, whereas the older models do not. | ||
| john degemis (Degemis)
Registered Member Username: Degemis Post Number: 32 Registered: 3-2008 Posted From: 71.92.155.232 Rating: N/A |
Called Shurflo and asked. They said there is no known problems but to let them know if I had any problems. The Lady was very nice. I searched 500 website and found only one RVNet site were someone had a problem with cycling on and off when faucet was open. The instructions say to use 1/2 inch ID tubing. maybe he hade less? Hope I get to the plubming soon. Hope to have the outside painted today. Then I can spend the winter on the inside. | ||
| Roger Baughman (Roger)
Registered Member Username: Roger Post Number: 43 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 69.232.69.94 Rating: N/A |
Thanks for all of the info and advice. I realy do appreciate it. I will get back to you with the spec's you ask for. For now I believe that the two pumps are in series. I have one switch for each pump in the kitchen at the main control panel. I supply lines are hard plastic at about 1/2", I will check the size. I did notice the plastic tank sides are some what pulled in on the sides. Sounds like a vent problem. I only have two tanks, one black water and one fresh water. The black water is on top of the fresh water tank. While I had the bus in a RV repair place last sommer for some work they noticed one of the pumps was leaking, so I had them replace it. So the top of the tank is not accessable for a vent. Bur for now I will take all of this and get the info on the spec's and get back to you all. Thanks to all. Roger | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 714 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 72.146.80.76 Rating: N/A |
Roger - The vent doesn't have to be at the top of the tank. You can provide enough venting (air intake), by using a decent venting fill cap at the point of fill. Try leaving the fill cap off, and let the pump run. If the pressure is restored, then just make sure the fill cap is of the vented type! If you're using a hose-type fill connector, then you'd want to remove the valve insert in the connection. Or, add a vent at that point, using a "T' or "Y" fitting, with tubing higher than any of the sink faucets. You just want to get air in behind the water. | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 585 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 66.82.9.56 Rating: N/A |
Try leaving the fill cap off, and let the pump run. Our choice was a 1/16 inch hole in the fill cap. Plenty of vent for the capacity of a DC pump, and too small for the bugs to live in. Should "better" water be found in our travels the fill cap comes OFF before the low point 2 inch dump plug is opened. FF | ||
| Wec4104 (Wec4104)
Registered Member Username: Wec4104 Post Number: 13 Registered: 7-2008 Posted From: 68.46.66.57 Rating: N/A |
Here's the discussion on the Shurflo I was referencing ... http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=9662.0 | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 590 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 66.82.162.19 Rating: N/A |
One thing to note is pipe and tubing , in the SAME SIZE have different internal diameters. 5/8 tubing has a nice 1/2+ hole for good flow . We chose tubing and flair fittings so any damage would be a simple on board repair. No heat ,no threads, no solvents , just remove , duplicate and replace, Works for me, FF | ||
| Jack Conrad (Jackconrad)
Registered Member Username: Jackconrad Post Number: 896 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 71.54.29.215 Rating: N/A |
Along with what FF said, if you install all plumbing lines inside cabinets instead of inside walls, thay are accessible if/when a problem occurs. Jack | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 659 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 207.231.75.253 Rating: N/A |
"We chose tubing and [flare] fittings..." "No heat, no threads, no solvents..." Tell us Fred, where do you buy flare fittings with with no threads! ? G | ||
| don goldsmith (Bottomacher)
Registered Member Username: Bottomacher Post Number: 231 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 72.15.86.59 Rating: N/A |
In 25 years of a/c work, I've seen a few split flared tubing ends, but I never had a silver-soldered joint come apart. And there is normally vibration at both ends of the lines. NOTHING goes inside my walls if I can route it outside, except wire in conduit. | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 399 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.209.191.165 Rating: N/A |
Amen....and amen to the third line. RCB | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 593 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 69.19.14.42 Rating: N/A |
"Tell us Fred, where do you buy flare fittings with with no threads!" The flair fittings have threads , but I DONT HAVE TO MAKE THEM IN THE FIELD! For folks that worry about splitting the flair nuts from overtightning , simply purchase referigeration flair nuts , about 3X heavier. The NAPA $2.00 flair tool works , but for good (low torque) good fitting flairs the refrigeration "Flair in the Air" at about $35. works far better. Imperial or other good one. Also will work for refrigeration , the NAPA may not. FF. | ||
| Roger Baughman (Roger)
Registered Member Username: Roger Post Number: 45 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 69.232.69.94 Rating: N/A |
OK Here is some of the spec's on what I found after a quick look as I am still working and my time is limited. I will do some more testing on the water presure on Saturday. I now beleve there is a vent. It is a 1/12" PVC pipe that comes from the top/side of the tank then goes up about 12 inches then takes a U turn and exits below the bay floor. Second, the pumps are made by Shurflo rated at 45 psi, number 2088-403-444, diaphram pump. There is also a seperate metal blue tank with a water line coming from the second pump and going into the bottom of this tank. The label on the side of this tank reads, (Pneumatic Accumclator Tank, Factory charged to 20psi, Tank presure must be the same as the pump cut-in presure.) What this tank is for, I do not know. I assume one of you will be able to enlighten me. Third , the pumps are plumbed in parrallel as the pumped water does not have to go through the other pump before it goes to the coach. Tomorrow I will check the presure out of the pumps and at the line going into the kitchen facuet. Thanks again for all of your help. Roger | ||
| Roger Baughman (Roger)
Registered Member Username: Roger Post Number: 46 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 69.232.69.94 Rating: N/A |
The pvc pipe is 1- 1/2" not 1/12" Thanks Roger | ||
| Jack Conrad (Jackconrad)
Registered Member Username: Jackconrad Post Number: 897 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 71.54.29.215 Rating: N/A |
That blue tank is an accumulator and sounds like everything is plumbed correctly from your description. Make sure your house batteries are fully charged so that pumps are getting full voltage. Jack | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 662 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 207.231.75.253 Rating: N/A |
Roger, Thanks for the info, now we can give you an answer that means something. The blue accumulator tank you desperately need, and it should have a schrader (tire) fitting on its top. To properly set the precharge pressure, you need to know what pressure the pump turns on and off at. Then turn the pump switches off and open a faucet. After the water stops running out, read the tank air pressure with a tire gauge. As mentioned before, it should equal the pump starting pressure. If you get water at the air fitting, the diaphragm has failed, and the tank MUST be replaced! As to your low flow problem, only two thoughts now. One is that the pressure switches on the pumps are set too low, the other is that you may have household fixtures with flow restrictors, which were designed for higher city water pressure. Take the strainer out of one of your sink faucets, and see if it has a brass flat washer with a small hole in the middle. If it does, drill the hole out about twice the size. When you get time, tell us what the pressure is, standing, and with a faucet open, please. Someone's comment in one of these posts about "one pump keeping the pressure up enough that the other one doesn't start," should be considered. As in put a hand on each pump and have someone else open valves and see if they both run? G | ||
| Roger Baughman (Roger)
Registered Member Username: Roger Post Number: 47 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 69.232.69.94 Rating: N/A |
Thanks George and Jack, What I saw on top of the blue tank was a red cover, (I guess) it is a cover for the tire value. I will check it out and check the other suggestions too. I will get back to you as soon as I can. Thanks again for all of your help. Roger | ||
| Ricky D. West (Gg04)
Registered Member Username: Gg04 Post Number: 14 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 32.176.45.236 Rating: N/A |
To be different...we spend more time in hard water country than soft..We just used a 10gal pressure tank,not bladder style.. the open to air storage helps greatly killing chlorene and mineral odors. It to has a schrader valve but it is left at atmospheric pressure empty..not as much draw down as a bladder tank but in nearly ten years has never water logged..and less than half the price of a bladder tank..gg04 |
