| Author | Message | ||
| Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat) (68.7.217.217)
Rating: N/A |
I decided to go the route of "do it myself" for the foam job, and use McMaster's $600 froth-pak kit. http://www.mcmaster.com/ Part number 9325K77, it gets you a couple 56lb cylinders of goo, hoses, gun , and a few extra nozzles, and it covers 600 sq. ft My origional intention was to set the kit up, try out a test spray to see how it behaved, and foam the sides of my bus later that day once I'd cleaned everything up and masked things, and do the roof later on when I'm sure I won't want to add another conduit or pipe up there. So I purged the system per instructions, got out a spray nozzle, stuck it in the gun, and sprayed a little bit on one of my side panels. To my surprise, the spray was forceful but very easily controlled... much like a can of spray paint but nicer, it was a very tight 6" wide pattern, no overspray, easy to control, and fast. It stuck to everything- even dusty surfaces, never fell off, and was just...well...neat!! The only weakness is that when you turn it off, one of the components keeps going for a half of a second or so and results in a drip-glob of goo that falls to the floor. At that point, knowing that the mixing tips clog up after about 30 seconds of non-use, I realized that this was going to be simple enough to do that I could just grab a hunk of plywood to catch the drips, and go! So I did, and about 15 minutes later the interior of my bus rear section (about 2/3 of the bus) was foamed and done. No masking was necessary, it was super clean except for the turn-off drips, and amazed at how fast and easy it just was, I put the system away for a later day when I'm ready to foam the celings. The day was within the temperature recommendations of the foam kit, and doing it in layers worked very nicely. Each layer heated itself as it cured, making a lot of warmth for the next. I'd do it horizontally at first then do another panel, then come back and redo the first one Vertically this time. Nice even layers that I won't even have to grind! (Actually I welded a piece of bandsaw blade stretched across a U-shaped length of 1" square tubing, making a bow-saw that cuts anything sticking out past the flat surface of my walls with ease and virtually zero mess) All in all, I'm VERY happy with the kit. Tons of material, super easy to use, fast (cures fully in 5 minutes) and one of the things I most enjoyed about this conversion. I recommend that you don a pair of latex gloves before you start spraying, but other than that, it's no big deal, and masking is totally unnecessary (well, I'll mask things when I start spraying the celing!!) I definitely had Much more fun with this than my yesterday's task of removing the 250 pound pumpkin from a junkyard Crown bus in a dirt-floored junkyard, 100 degrees outside and 97% humidity... Photos: http://www.heartmagic.com/zzFoamJob.JPG http://www.heartmagic.com/zzGooCatcher.JPG Cheers! Gary | ||
| Henry R. Bergman, Jr. (Henryofcj) (63.224.197.10)
Rating: N/A |
Gary, did you remove the inside ceiling panels before you did your foam job and if sossss...how did you remove the panels? CROWNS FOREVER!!! Henry | ||
| Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat) (68.7.217.217)
Rating: N/A |
Oh yeah! It wasn't hard... it takes a stinking little "Gulmite driver" to unscrew those funny little screws Crown used everywhere (Chuck at West Coast Coach sells em but the one size you need isn't availiable any more..you have to have it made at an EDM shop) Once the screws are out, you simply pull down from the center and the sheet you're working on goes "pop" and now it's in a "W" shape... then you work the ends out of their folded slots with a rubber sledge hammer. Much easier with two guys but it only took us about 15 minutes to do the whole bus. The nice green sheets became my new side panels after I raised the roof... Cheers Gary | ||
| Henry R. Bergman, Jr. (Henryofcj) (63.224.197.10)
Rating: N/A |
Gary....what is a EDM and where can I get that magic sized 24 point screw driver head I really need? Thanks. CROWNS FOREVER!!! Henry | ||
| Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat) (68.7.217.217)
Rating: N/A |
EDM stands for "Electrical discharge Machining"... basically you put a controlled electrical current between a "shape" and a piece of steel (your new tool-to-be), and under servo control in a circulating oil bath you slowly plunge the "shape" into the piece of steel...the sparks that are created when the two pieces hit each other causes erosion in the outline of your shape. For the "shape" you take the EDM people 6 or 7 carefully removed Crown screws and have them plunge their 'lil heads into your new tool-to-be made of oil-hardning tool steel- you actually machine most of it first on a lathe so all that the EDM machine has to do is cut the points. Since both the screws and the workpiece get eroded, you have to go thru about 5-6 screws before your new tool is cut properly. Then you harden it. It cost me $75 bucks to have a tool made this way and it works like a charm.... | ||
| Henry R. Bergman, Jr. (Henryofcj) (63.224.197.10)
Rating: N/A |
Wow....even though 75 bucks is a whole lot to me, the very idea of FINALLY having a complete set of the infamous Crown 24 point screwdriver heads sounds like one heck of an idea! Yea, I also bought the set from West Coach and Chuck also told me it would be missing the secret # eight socket I believe it is. Would like very much to have all of them. Can see that with the correct tools, removing the inner roof panels would be much easier. How did you remove the very first one? Did you have to start in the very rear of the coach? You know...the very rear center blind panel with the trapazoidal (mispelled!) shape with no rivets or screws? Next to it on either side are the two panels with the exposed rivets. How does the first panel come out? Did you have to drill out those exposed rivets? If sooosss, how did you do it? Reasons for all the dumb questions is that I am getting ready to start my conversion finally.... Which would start with the interior insulation. Do not know right now what kind of insulation I may in fact use----leaning towards the Reflextix type closed cell foam with the alumimum or white backing. Anyway, enought for now. Please bottle up some of your inexhaustable energy regarding Crown conversions and ship me some. I could sure use it. Very hot here with highs over 105 with thunder predicted. Humid too. CROWNS FOREVER!! Henry | ||
| Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat) (68.7.217.217)
Rating: N/A |
I started at the front and went back- at least that's the opposite of how my sheets were installed. The first one was just "unscrew and pull". The very rear panels with the curves are a bear and it took a lot of time and thought to not mess them up. I still don't have two of them out because after removing one of them I havn't decided if I need to do the restt yet. I may just use the "foam in place" stuff that they use for boat flotation... pour it into a big hole and it expands to hundreds of times it's volume and fills everything... yes, drill out all rivets- it's not hard but you'll find that some go right thru the roof where there's little space between. I have a little bonus though- seems some driver backed into something and made a mess of the right rear curve, so there's a lot of bondo and fixit work up there that I'm not so interested in disturbing. I ran into a little of it with the roof raise and it was "interesting"... My thoughts on the use of the foam insulation was swayed by a thread here a few months ago where Fast Fred pointed out that internal condensation could/would cause a lot of problems if there was any airspace between the roof and the insulation...foam is the only way that won't happen, so that's the way I went. I used "place-it-in" fiberglas insulation in my last bus and it was a waste of time and didn't do much. The foam's effectiveness is already evident, plus it stiffens things and quiets rattles down instantly... Cheers Gary (Sorry, I don't bottle my energy yet...  ) | ||
| Henry R. Bergman, Jr. (Henryofcj) (63.224.197.10)
Rating: N/A |
Yea, Fred is probably correct (again!) in that over time any trapped air space may cause moisture problems, especially up here in the humid wilds of SW Oregon. Crown allowed for this, I think, by having the 6 roof vents on my '74 10-wheeler venting that 1 inch air gap between the inner and outer roof panels all along the roof of the coach. At least I think it is already vented. Gary, when you pulled the inner panels on your Crown to spray the foam, did you see if the structural roof ribs were open from one panel to the next to let air pass thru all along the roof? Reason I ask this is that I do not want to mess with what Crown spent much engineering doing in the first place. I do not want to change anything if I do not have too. Anyway....thanks again...and...CROWNS FOREVER!! Henry of CJ | ||
| R.C.Bishop (128.123.88.40)
Rating: N/A |
Henry....the six roof vents are to evacuate passenger compartment air on my coach. Each unit penetrates the skin and has a block of 1.5 inch plywood affixed to the skin, secured to the ceiling via a vent cover and 4 screws. No air passes between (or around the vents) the rib sections. When all insulation is removed between the ribbed sections, only holes for wiring passes thru each rib, and very few of those throughout the length of the bus. Each ribbed section had it's own fiber glass insulation, now replaced by rigid foam with vapor barrier on each side of each sheet. The ribs are about 1.25+ " thick, also filled with fiber glass. Not much room up there for much of anything. But, as someone said, the thing is built like a tank. The ceiling was easy to remove and had almost zero crownhead screws. Majority were flathead stainless # 8s hidden in an aluminum reveal which held the sheets in place. They apparently started from the front, put up the first section, screwed it to the rib, slid in the second sheet to that moulding edge and so on. Formica was the material. I was fortunate and found some heavily discounted 1/8 oak plywood sheets which will become the new ceiling after all a/c supports, etc have been welded into place. I will place them generally the way the original was done, using plastic moulding instead of aluminum. Each section requires about 2/3rds of a sheet of 4 x 8. Haven't made up our minds if that will then be covered with fabric or left au natur. They are good looking sheets. Got them from Lowes at less than 1/2 price. By doing this, I will save precious headroom since I am not raising the roof. My coach is different than Gary's thru the roof/side transition. and is not feasable, MHO, to make the raise. It would take a major effort by more than one person and would best be done at the floor level. Way too much weight to lift and hold true by one individual. In this transition channel, they ran all the wiring for the lights and the speakers, also placed light fixtures at each seat and speakers occassionally down the length. It 16/18 guage steel sort of a parallelogram shape, with the one leg each attached to the curved and straight transition of the frame. There is enough room in the channel to place an a/c duct if it is 2.5" or less in diameter. All my 12 v wiring will be placed there, as it is already for the coach. RCB | ||
| Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat) (68.7.217.217)
Rating: N/A |
My roof was up against the ribs all the way. No air flow possible. The front vents leaked into that section though, because when I pulled them I got covered in dust. All the remaining sections were super clean. Interesting side-note, my bus was ordered as a special from the factory, all steel. No aluminum sides, no aluminum anywhere but the front and rear caps! RC, believe me my roof weighs a ton just like yours. Maybe more 'cause it's all steel. It was easy though... four silding posts with 2 c clamps each to hold it when I wasn't at that corner, and I ran a bumper jack around and around, moving each corner up an inch at a time and then reclamping it and going on to the next. Ya make the cut right in the middle of the window struts leaving the transition channel with the roof. I have that too. There's room inside it for wiring but I doubt enough for a duct- it looks as though there is but the roof ribs go thru it vertically and when you take that rib area away from the channel, ther's not much room left at each rib section... Cheers Gary Cheers Gary | ||
| Henry R. Bergman, Jr. (Henryofcj) (63.164.175.15)
Rating: N/A |
Hello R.C. and Gary; You guys are incredible! Ya yack back and forth discussing stuff routinely that I am scared to death to EVEN TRY!! Like raising the roof or pulling down the inside panels to PROPERLY insulate the roof. Wow! Speaking of which...(kinda) if one can not raise the roof...... .....how about lowering the floor? I have wondered from time to time if my center floor from wheel well to wheel well couldn't be lowered about four to six inches? This would give me more headroom from front to back. Is this even dreamable? I know lots of stuff is just under the plywood, but how far under the plywood? What about the radiator duct? The engine? The tranny? Shift linkage? The tandem driver's pumkin articulation? The top of the fuel tank? Is there ANY room down there? You see--I am lazy. Why should I crawl up, under, beneath or over my 10-wheeler when I can get you guys to do it for me. He, he, he!! CROWNS FOREVER!!! Lazy Henry. | ||
| Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat) (68.7.217.217)
Rating: N/A |
Hee hee, don't EVEN go there! At least with a Crown, I'd rather raise 15 roofs two feet than lower one floor 2 inches! There's waaaay too much stuff right under the floor, not to mention the already not-enough-ground-clearance engine. There's a few spots between the frame that you might be able to access, like right over the engine there's room for all my batteries- a fairly good chunk of real-estate, but putting the floor there... for what, to be able to stand in a hole? Honestly, don't be scared of anything especially where others have been there and can help, like raising the roof. Just do it... The roof raise was a lot easier and took me fewer days and a lot less $ than changing out the tranny and clutch for a 9 speed.... Cheers! Gary | ||
| R.C.Bishop (128.123.88.14)
Rating: N/A |
Henry, I answered with a long post, but somehow it didn't make it to the board. Bottom line is look under your center aisle access panels and you should find a quick answer to your question...unless you don't have them; then I can't help you much. As for raising the roof, I've been thru that with you and Gary and it is not going to happen in our coach. Would be a nightmare, and I have a number of years in the structural steel business to back up my thinking. My bus is made differently than Gary's and more power to him. I wouldn't attempt it alone or without a crane. Too much weight. Your bus may be more like Gary's. If you do it, I wish you well. Regarding the ground clearance/engine problem Gary brought up, I don't have a problem with mine the way it is built. I don't intend to do any off road stuff and the clearance is above the side rail line of the exterior, so I see no problem. Paved roads all the way...hopefully. As FF says, do it YOUR way... wrotsa wruck. RCB | ||
| Henry R. Bergman, Jr. (Henryofcj) (63.224.197.10)
Rating: N/A |
Yea, I understand how the six (6) roof vents work on my '74 Crown 10-wheeler, I have had one apart several times trying to fix an intermidant rain leak. Leaks now only sometimes during rain. Curious as to how the space between the inner and outer roof panels is vented. Sounds like it is not vented at all, which I find curious. Maybe that is why my Crowns pops, groans and creeks. Anyway, I was just kidding about lowering the floor. It was meant as a little joke. Sorry. Yea, have had the access hatch things open and there is just no room at all down there. I am 73" tall, sosss the plan is to take off my boots when inside the coach and just duck a little under the ceiling AC units. With the planned insulation and carpet will have little room. CROWNS FOREVER!!! | ||
| Jim Ferry (209.142.165.164)
Rating: N/A |
Looked at McMasters website, saw a lot of stuff but no Froth Pak. Sounds like something I might want to use in my bus. Jim | ||
| Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat) (68.7.217.217)
Rating: N/A |
Jim, Try this part number 9325K77 or type in "Expanding Foam" in their search engine Gary | ||
| John Biundo (Jbiundo) (67.112.121.112)
Rating: N/A |
Gary, Thanks for the excellent reports. As a result, I'm leaning toward the McMaster kit myself. Could you comment on a couple of topics? 1. How were the instructions? I mean, did they specify a temperature range for application? For the materials (walls) or just ambient temp? 2. Did the instructions specify how much expansion to expect? Reasons for asking: 1) planning ahead; 2) others have commented that one difficulty with the DIY kits is "controlling the expansion" which, apparently, is the key determining factor in insulation R-value of the foam (i.e., it's the trapped air that is the insulator; less expansion = less air = lower R-value) (I'm paraphrasing others here, not my area of expertise). Seems like one could experiment a bit to ensure getting the right expansion factor, if one knew what that was ;-) 3. How long will the kit keep between applications once opened? I'd like to foam my walls first, then floors and ceilings later (indefinitely later, so a short shelf life after opening would be a bad thing). Thanks again for the first-hand reports, I've found them most useful. Regards, john | ||
| Donald Ames (Donames) (67.242.33.161)
Rating: N/A |
Hey Gary, The only web site I could find with McMasters was McMastersKoss and they sell automotive gaskets and "O" rings but I couldn't find a search engine on their site to enter the part number you gave. Is this the correct McMasters? If not could you help me out with a web address? I am looking for something to insulate the very front and back of my coach that is enclosed in steel inside and out. I know there is a cavity there and both areas really radiate the heat on a sunny day, and actually sweat in the cold. Maybe this kit is not the right thing for my need, as I would have to inject it from the inside through small holes or spray it on the outside and cover it with something??? Don Ames (Pd4903-394) | ||
| John Biundo (Jbiundo) (67.112.121.112)
Rating: N/A |
Don, Go to www.mcmcaster.com and search for "spray foam insulation". You'll need to scroll down a few pages, but you'll find it. Don't know about your application, but it seems reasonable that you could inject the foam. I'm not sure who the manufacturer of the McMaster foam kit is, but you might be able to find info about a similar kit at www.fomo.com. I noticed on one of their data sheets that the foam sets up FAST, so I might be a bit concerned about how well the liquid would disperse in the cavity before expanding and solidifying. You might need to drill holes in several strategic locations and "layer" the foam in to be sure it doesn't create large voids. Just a thought... John | ||
| John Biundo (Jbiundo) (67.112.121.112)
Rating: N/A |
Gary, Noticed your back after an apparent hiatus. This is just a short note to get this thread back on the "last week" radar. Please take a look at my questions back 2 or 3 messages. Would appreciate your comments. Cheers, John | ||
| Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat) (68.7.217.217)
Rating: N/A |
Hi John, Righto, back from the 2500 miles or so of maiden voyage. Very sucessful, very fun! Ok, your questions: (1) Not many directions, but not much needed. The temp range is spec'd and there are thermal indicators stuck to the sides of the tanks. Basically the hotter the better. I found that the first layer cures very hot and heats up later layers- it should definitely be done in layers although just minutes apart is fine. (2) Expansion was what it was. it didn't seem to vary although the thicker you put it on in a single layer the more it expands. I don't think it makes much difference in the end. (3)The kit will keep for a long time (months) and the directions tell you how to restart it. The biggest thing is to squirt it into a trashcan with the nozzle not yet attached to make sure both hoses are squirting....I didnt do this just one time and had a giant mess of part A with no part B, which besides being really gross to clean up, also killed the overall yield a lot. Dumb mistake- don't make it yourself. Really messy to clean up. (4) The foam kits come with a set of both "spray" nozzles and "caulk" nozzles. I used the caulk nozzles to inject foam in many holes drilled in my rear cap, from the inside- Crown has somewhat spherical curved metal sheet both inside and outside with a 1-2" gap- filling that space with foam made it very hard and much more insulated. The curve of the metal kept the expansion from distorting the shape but I definitely would NOT try it on a flat panel or you'll end up with major bulging. I put 5/16" holes about 8-10" apart and simply stuck the nozzle in the hole and pulled the trigger... I squirted foam in a hole until it came out the neighboring one then I moved on quickly. It was actually hilarious to watch- as the stuff expanded and cured, the excess had no where to go but back out the holes- looked kinda like the millions of snakes coming out of the walls in "Raiders of the Lost Arc" but more like a sphagetti factory out of control. My wife laughed her butt off watching it!! In any of the applications, injecting or spraying, the stuff is cured in about 3 minutes max. It sticks to eyeglasses horribly well so wear throwaways, and have good air flow unless you like holding your breath a LOT.... Cheers Gary | ||
| John Biundo (Jbiundo) (67.112.121.112)
Rating: N/A |
Hi Gary, Love to hear a report on the maiden voyage. Congrats -- very exciting milestone! One followup: what IS the spec'd temp range? Does it apply to ambient air temp? Or, if the ambient temp is low but the skins are at temp, is that what matters? I'm trying to get a feeling for when I should plan to foam by -- I live in Nor-Cal, so will have day-time temps into the 70's into late November. Have lots to do before I can foam, but anxious to foam so I can put walls up this winter! Thanks, john | ||
| Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat) (68.7.217.217)
Rating: N/A |
I'll have to look at the cans, but I'm leaving on another bus trip tomorrow early and won't be by the cans till next week. Basically I think if it's over 70 outside it's fine. The cans have to be warm so the fluids are the right consistancy to flow properly, and the skins should be warm to help the cure and expansion. If you don't have a hot day, just stick it all in the bus and turn on a heater for a few hours, then go at it. BTW fully loaded with 150 gals of water I averaged 10mpg!! Whoopee! |