| Author | Message | ||
| Nellie Wilson (Vivianellie)
Registered Member Username: Vivianellie Post Number: 103 Registered: 11-2008 Posted From: 70.52.106.33  Rating: |
First, the background: I bought the bus, nursed it a few hundred miles to 'home base,' and had it weighed, inspected and serviced. Those stories about the 'rigorous' (another word comes to mind) inspections in Quebec? All true, I can assure you. And the guys I was 'referred to' (for repairs and service) were a bunch of hammer mechanics, better suited to Mack trucks than to my sleek and beautiful MCI coach. Not trusting their work, I've had much of it redone. But, they seemed to manage okay with the oil change, filters, etc. (except for trying to bully me into multi-weight oil and over-filling the crankase). I've put less than 1000 miles on the coach since then (coming up on 24 months) plus maybe 10 hours of idleing. So here's my concern: Assuming no fuel or water infiltration, is my oil still good? Are my filters still good? The oil looks fresh and clean and feels thick and slick (oops... stay on track, Nellie). I mean, everything just SAT there... not much different than if the oil just sat in cans (or the filters in boxes) all this time. Is it? Anyway, that's what I'm thinking, But thinking gets me into trouble. So what do YOU guys think? Have I wasted all this oil and these pricey goodies by sitting too long? In my defense, I couldn't hold off the servicing - even as little as I drive it - without risking damage. But must I do it all again (sorry Barbra - cribbing your lyrics) before leaving? or am I good to go? I'm keeping my fingers (and toes) crossed. Thanks to all, Nellie Wilson | ||
| Dan West (Utahclaimjumper)
Registered Member Username: Utahclaimjumper Post Number: 148 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 208.66.38.60 Rating: N/A |
I like 8000 or 24 months, about average lately for me, another way of thinking of it, oil is cheaper than parts..>>>Dan | ||
| Tim (Timkar)
Registered Member Username: Timkar Post Number: 119 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 24.64.223.203 Rating: |
You could go to your local Finning dealer (or other testing lab) and get an oil analysis kit. Cost was about $15 CDN last time I did it. Take the sample, send it off to their lab and await the results. Those results will give you an indication if you need to change the oil as well as giving you some insight into the condition of your engine internals. I used this method for 3512 CAT standby generators and used to go 48 months between oil changes if the hours were low and the results were good. If you do this on an annual basis you can keep track of your engine wear characteristics ...Tim | ||
| David Lower (Dave_l)
Registered Member Username: Dave_l Post Number: 117 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 67.58.201.10  Rating: N/A |
In MCI sevice interval guide they say to change oil and filter every 10000 miles. This is for D threw J series coach's. I dont have my MC7 manuals with me but I think it was at less miles back then. But you could use the 10000 mile interval that is from MCI factory service guide. Dave L | ||
| Keith Wood (Ft6)
Registered Member Username: Ft6 Post Number: 64 Registered: 8-2008 Posted From: 75.208.221.130 Rating: |
2 years is 2 old, because you haven't been running the engine enough. Oil goes bad three ways. First, from microscopic impurities collected inside the running engine (metal, soot, etc), second from breaking down (to your oil the engine is a rock crusher) and lastly from external contamination, especially water (condensation, gasket leaks, etc). If you run the engine for an hour or more every week, the water will generally boil off. If you let it sit, the water will collect in the lowest part of the pan and everywhere else that oil will pool with the engine shut down. The oil will float on top of it, and seem to be just fine, but in fact it is degrading. If it's been sitting for several weeks or more, take a small sample of oil (dripping from the dipstick works) into a glass container. You don't need much. Then start the engine, idle for a minute, and take another sample into another glass container. If it looks the same, relight the engine for 5 minutes and repeat. Still good? Or do you see bubbles, suds, discoloration, "hot chocolate" or other changes? These are caused by water. If all of your samples are the same, then fast idle for an hour and check again. Still good? At this point, I would take the sample for the lab and let them tell you how it looks (something you want to do every year anyhow, just before an oil change). If they say it's good, then don't change it. You want to start the engine every week, fast idle until it reaches operating temperature, then another 10 minutes. Once a month you want to let it go a full hour at operating temperature. This renews the seals and boils off the water. | ||
| Keith Wood (Ft6)
Registered Member Username: Ft6 Post Number: 65 Registered: 8-2008 Posted From: 75.208.221.130 Rating: N/A |
Oh, to answer your question, no you haven't wasted anything -- at worst, you bought yourself time to sit without hurting anything. You will probably find that your oil is ok, but remember, oil is a lot cheaper than an overhaul. BTW, oil changes are the easiest thing you can do to your coach. Check to see if you have a plug (bolt) or a valve (handle) at your oil pan drain point. If it's a valve, you do oil changes by hooking up a drain hose and opening the valve. If it's a plug, you need a drain pan which will fit underneath and hold the full amount of your oil capacity. Valves are better, because you can put a pump on the other end of the drain hose and fill a 10-gallon container directly from the oil sump. If you have a plug, after you remove it, take it to the hardware or plumbing supply place to get the appropriate parts to convert to a valve. Valves are usually safetied closed, either with a reusable pin or with stainless-steel safety wire. If it's wired, just but the wire and remember to replace it when you close the valve again. | ||
| Nellie Wilson (Vivianellie)
Registered Member Username: Vivianellie Post Number: 104 Registered: 11-2008 Posted From: 76.68.203.142 Rating: N/A |
Such a bunch of gentlemen! Who'd a thunk a bunch of roughneck old bushounds could be so chivalrous? Outta do a remake of 'Shane'- only in a bus! I thank you all for extremely good tips, all of which I shall follow to 'T' (a phrase I've always liked though I have not a clue what it means). BTW Keith & Tim, I just wrote Blackstone Labs about getting a sample kit and testing. | ||
| ED Hackenbruch (Shadowman)
Registered Member Username: Shadowman Post Number: 83 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 68.27.35.109 Rating: N/A |
I changed my drain plug to a drain valve from www.fumotovalve.com for about $25 if i remember right. It is spring loaded so no need to wire it shut. Works really well, you can let out as much or as little oil as you like and you don't need a wrench and you don't make a mess. | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 613 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 66.82.9.23 Rating: N/A |
The best listing of what it takes to keep a bus in reasonable condition , and safe to use is in Larry Planchnos RV book. A MUST read for most Prior!!! to a purchase. FF | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Registered Member Username: Rjlong Post Number: 1474 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 67.181.166.160  Rating: N/A |
To follow up on what Fred said, the name of Larry Plachno's book is Beginner's Guide to Converted Coaches. It's available thru Amazon, or directly from www.busmag.com, Larry's website. And since we're talking about books, don't forget to get a copy of The Bus Garage Index, published by Bus Ride magazine. Lists bus garages all over the US & Canada, including contact info. Well worth the $40 or so. Available directly from the publisher @ www.busride.com Link for ordering is on the LH menu bar. Now back to our regularly scheduled bus chatter! FWIW & HTH. . .  | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 615 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 69.19.14.43 Rating: N/A |
"If you run the engine for an hour or more every week, the water will generally boil off." Never in a million years. Our diesels run far to cool at idle to even get warm (operating temp) never mind warm enough to "boil water off". Ideling , even high ideling, is DEATH to all diesels . The combustion pressure must be fairly high to get behind the rings , in order for them to seal. With ideling (or low loads) the rings can't seal and combustion gasses , including acid blow by right into the crankcase. IF an engine is driven a couple of hours some of it might boil off , but most of the blowby products are left for that part (about 15%) of the oil package to neutralize and absorb. SO contrary to popular opinion the oil must be changed (SEZ DD) in time in the engine , as well as by miles driven. Out method is to drive 100 miles or so every month and dump the oil at 1 year , or 6-7000 miles , which ever comes FIRST. For campers that find this difficult DD has a "Storage for over 30! Days" procedure to save the engine from rusting the cylinder walls . A "Quickie" is to shut the engine off while spraying Fogging Oil (NAPA) in. Then cap , air tight , duct tape and aluminum foil the intake and exhaust. Not as good as Da Book proper method , but quick and cheap. FF | ||
| Keith Wood (Ft6)
Registered Member Username: Ft6 Post Number: 66 Registered: 8-2008 Posted From: 75.209.86.58 Rating: N/A |
Fred, you and I are going to have to agree to partially disagree on this one. I had a Freightliner with a Cat 3076 that accidentally got about a pint of water in it the crankcase (courtesy of the new shop guy). The guys at the shop had me kick it up to fast idle for a couple of hours, at the end of which the water was gone. However, I do agree with driving the coach 100 miles a month. This is good not only for the engine, but also the air system, steering, wheel bearings, tires . . .and it lets you remind the $300,000 sticks-and-staples drivers that they're not the hottest ticket in the campground. ;) | ||
| Bruce Henderson (Oonrahnjay)
Registered Member Username: Oonrahnjay Post Number: 325 Registered: 8-2004 Posted From: 4.153.53.175  Rating: N/A |
F Fred said "Ideling , even high ideling, is DEATH to all diesels . The combustion pressure must be fairly high to get behind the rings , in order for them to seal. With ideling (or low loads) the rings can't seal and combustion gasses , including acid blow by right into the crankcase. IF an engine is driven a couple of hours some of it might boil off , but most of the blowby products are left for that part (about 15%) of the oil package to neutralize and absorb. SO contrary to popular opinion the oil must be changed (SEZ DD) in time in the engine , as well as by miles driven. Out method is to drive 100 miles or so every month and dump the oil at 1 year , or 6-7000 miles , which ever comes FIRST." Agreed 100%. One thing that we have on our side is that modern diesel oils and the tribology technology backing them up has progressed greatly in the past few years (had to, because "emission controlled" engines put so much cr*p into the oil). With our older, simpler engines we put less load on our oil and it's able to handle metals, acids, soot, etc. better than older oils. But a bus owner is smart to get that stuff out of there often. The oil will help you but it won't *save* you from poor maintenance. | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Registered Member Username: Niles500 Post Number: 889 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.180.124.221 Rating: N/A |
DD says 2 strokes can go up to 15k between oil changes on low sulfur fuel - go to the source - BTW DD doesn't require an oil change based on days, months or years of sitting - FWIW http://www.axlealliance.com/pdf/vocations/Lube-Oil-Fuel-Requirements.pdf | ||
| J.L.Vickers (Roadrunnertex)
Registered Member Username: Roadrunnertex Post Number: 46 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 69.34.188.48 Rating: N/A |
I have a Greyhound form M-27 dated 3-76 Fuel oil and mileage record card.That states crankcase oil change & filter change 16,000 miles jlv | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 676 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 207.231.75.253 Rating: N/A |
"...a pint of water in the crankcase,...they told me to kick it up to fast idle, and in a couple of hours the water was gone" Gee, and I always thought that water was heavier than oil? Lube oil pickups are always on the bottom of crankcases, so they will continue to lube until the engine is completely out of oil. So, when we started a COLD engine with a pint of water in it, essentially the first thing circulated was the pint of water! All of the water that didn't emulsify, recirculated thru the engine in preference to the oil. It's already been correctly posted in this thread that an idling diesel (fast or normal) doesn't warm to operating temperature, so a couple of hours later, where's the water? How do we know it's gone? Did we pull the drain plug THEN and look????? I think everybody reading this has figured out by now the two things I'm going to say next: 1. If a shop had told me to do that to my engine, I would have asked them if there was something written on my forehead. Then I would have told them to drain the oil, and refill it at their expense. 2. Had they told me what they had done, and that they had loosened the drain plug, drained a quart and a half out, re-tightened it, and added a quart at their expense, I would have accepted it. I've heard stories about gas jockeys putting water in Corvair oil fillers, but telling someone to fast idle a diesel engine until the water in the crankcase is gone, wins the DS award for the month! That's a shop to avoid like the plague, not because of what they did first, because of what they did to you afterwards! | ||
| Nellie Wilson (Vivianellie)
Registered Member Username: Vivianellie Post Number: 106 Registered: 11-2008 Posted From: 70.52.107.189 Rating: N/A |
Woweee. Am I ever... confused? Looked at that DD website, Niles. You're sure right, no mention of time intervals. But that's contrary to what everyone's saying. Still, sure don't want to dump the oil unless I'm risking my engine. What's an EGR engine... not a 71, right? Awfully technical, that oil stuff. I don't really want to learn it either. Aren't I okay if I just stick to good a grade diesel oil? SAE 40, of course. Nellie Wilson | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 616 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 69.19.14.35 Rating: N/A |
"DD says 2 strokes can go up to 15k between oil changes on low sulfur fuel" Probably might if the miles are highway high speed high load miles put on in a month or two. But I sure would'nt do it with a bus camper at 5000, 10,000 miles every few years. Of course , "do it your way" rules , but the "Savings" may not be appreciated by the next owner. ANY 40 wt oil marked CF II works just fine . But not multigrade or CF IV FF | ||
| Bruce Henderson (Oonrahnjay)
Registered Member Username: Oonrahnjay Post Number: 327 Registered: 8-2004 Posted From: 4.153.53.46 Rating: N/A |
Nellie wrote "What's an EGR engine... not a 71, right?" An EGR engine is one with "Exhaust Gas Recirculation" -- exhaust gas is pulled out of the exhaust and pumped into the intake tract of the engine. The idea is that the exhaust gas in "inert" and it is meant to "damp" down the formation of Oxides of Nitrogen in an engine. (NOx is an air pollutant that's more likely to be formed in an efficient engine - since diesels are more efficient than others, they are more likely to have high NOx levels. Thus, the gov agencies -- EPA/US "fed", California ARB, and Min. of Transport in Canada -- began cracking down on diesel engines a few years ago.) The problem is that exhaust gas is inert as regards NOx formation, but is loaded with soot and other harmful chemicals. Thank goodness most of it goes out the exhaust port again but some parts of the raw exhaust and subsequent formation products of it go into the combustion chambers and then into the oil. It's nasty stuff. Most of the engines that we run were made before the government regulations for EGR. We're lucky. One thing about all this that is in our benefit is that modern diesel oils have additives to chemically counteract the nasty chemical results of EGR -- we have less of the nasty chemicals than an EGR engine but they're there in our engines too and it's a good thing that modern oils give high levels of protection. But, as I said before, the oil will help protect our engines but don't "save us from poor maintenance". Oil ratings for diesel engines are in the form of "C?-number". The "C" is for "compression engine" (or diesel); the "?" is the "level" of standard and the "number" is for type of cycle. Under this system, an oil marked "CC-2" would be a diesel oil made to "level C" standards for 2-stroke engines; an oil marked "CF-2" is also a diesel oil for 2-strokes but it's to "level F" standards. The higher the number, the later the standard. As Fred says, "CF-2" oil is probably going to be a good one - the "level F" standard was the biggest advance to counter EGR levels of soot in the oil. (If someone who knows what he's doing recommends a CG-2 oil, that would be OK but you're more likely to find a CF-2 oil.) The "weight" is a measure the consistency or "flow ability" of the oil; the standard test was published by Society of Autombile Engineers, so it will be marked on the bottle something like "SAE 40". Oils called "multigrade" will be listed something like 10W-30 or 15W-45 -- if you see the double number with the W in the middle, you don't want that in your 2-stroke. | ||
| Tim (Timkar)
Registered Member Username: Timkar Post Number: 120 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 24.64.223.203 Rating: N/A |
Nellie....FYI....40W CF2 is available at Walmarts in Canada. Not sure who refines it but I have been using it for years. Cost is less than $40 for 20 litres so a couple of them and oil filters should cost around $100. | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Registered Member Username: Niles500 Post Number: 890 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.180.124.221 Rating: N/A |
Nellie - Primarily 2 things will degrade your oil - Shear and contamination - If it makes you feel better, change your fuel filter, although you don't need to - I just hate wasting oil while we are expending huge amounts of human and monetary capital fighting over it - FWIW Here's a reasonable explanation of most oil Q's - HTH http://www.nordicgroup.us/oil.htm | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 1436 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 76.68.133.68  Rating: N/A |
The local DD dealer here in Toronto (Harpers) carries the Exxon XD3 brand in the appropriate CF2 straight 40 wt oil, with low enough ash for the DD. Your choice, bucket or gallons. I prefer gallons, easier to handle... It is the low ash content that is critical for DD use. There are oils that do not meet the ash levels, yet have all the rest of the criteria. You'll read about that in the DD literature. happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| Keith Wood (Ft6)
Registered Member Username: Ft6 Post Number: 67 Registered: 8-2008 Posted From: 75.208.232.242 Rating: N/A |
George: First off, it was their truck and their engine (company shop), one of a fleet of 700 company and 600 owner operators. Second, no matter where the water is, you pour enough hot oil onto it and it WILL evaporate at a faster pace. Third, we know the oil was gone because the evidence of water in the oil was gone. No tiny bubbles, no "hot cocoa," nothing. Since I then put another quarter of a million miles on that engine, without problems, indicates to me that they got it right. Oh, and the oil pickups are NOT at the bottom of the pan, they are a couple of inches above it, to keep from sucking up all the crud that ends up there after a few thousand miles of hard running. That's how they knew they wouldn't suck up the water until there was plenty of oil circulation too. As far as an idling diesel engine not hitting operating temperature, there were a few winter nights in NY and PA where if it hadn't, I'd have frozen. Even after idling all night, with the heater running, the oil and coolant temps were in the operating range, give or take maybe 15 degrees. | ||
| JC Alacoque (Jc_alacoque)
Registered Member Username: Jc_alacoque Post Number: 79 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 72.45.68.242 Rating: N/A |
In my Courier 96 w/ 4-71 DD, I change the oil once a year ( 10, 15000 kms). In the 102D3 w/ S60 of the hockey team's, it gets done at 250 hr intervals ( 18, 20000 kms). BTW, Petrocan has a CF2 40W specifically made for DD 2 strokes called DieselTonic. Ask for it at your local bulk plant. JC | ||
| Ricky D. West (Gg04)
Registered Member Username: Gg04 Post Number: 17 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 32.176.12.63 Rating: N/A |
Niles good site with one exception...fuel soot and or sludge is only non abrasive below .5 microns..all modern maintenance programs view soot above 1.0 microns as a grinding compound circulating through your system..ask any PE.. the largest selling product to the trucking and heavy equipment is still after market bypass oil filters...but then we do most of the nationewide shows and haven't changed oil on anything with a pressurized slystem in over 30 years..go do the research....I do not like wasteing oil at all..gg sorry missed the decimal points (Message edited by gg04 on December 26, 2008) | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Registered Member Username: Niles500 Post Number: 891 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.180.124.221 Rating: N/A |
Good point Ricky - That is why it is best to spend a few bucks extra (and it is just a few) and get a 5 micron filter like the ones Wix makes - better $$$$ spent, better for your mill and a lot cheaper than an oil change - | ||
| Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
Registered Member Username: Pvcces Post Number: 1246 Registered: 5-2001 Posted From: 65.74.69.188 Rating: N/A |
Niles, I think that Ricky might have been talking about one half micron, not five micron. We use a toilet paper bypass filter because it filters down to one half micron, for this very reason. Oil analysis lets us know when we need to change the oil. We change the filter at about 1,500 miles. For what it's worth. Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576 Suncatcher Ketchikan, Alaska For waht it's worth. | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Registered Member Username: Niles500 Post Number: 893 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.180.124.221 Rating: N/A |
NOTE: Ricky changed his post from 5 micron to .5 micron and 10 micron to 1.0 micron - Although I agreed with his original post I do not agree with his edited statement - Below is a quote from Michael Kaufman of the Motor Oil Bible relative to this claim - Although I do not necessarily agree 100% with all fo the info on this site I have provided it below for reference - http://www.zag.si/~jank/public/bmw/oil_bible.pdf *** First of all, the statistics previously mentioned regarding engine wear haven't changed. Studies have shown that the majority of all engine wear is caused by particles between 5 and 20 microns. Unfortunately, most standard oil filters are only marginally efficient down to 20 microns or so. That means the stuff that causes the most wear is still left in there *** Tom - I agree that use of bypass filters and their frequent changing has proven to prolong the useful life of lubricants (million mile series 60's) without damaging the mill. I have never seen DD or any other Co. claim to know of a commercially available filter that can significantly filter to 1/2 micron. I am familiar with claims made by Co.'s such as Filtran that claim extended oil life using integral (replacement) bypass filters that are basically 4 micron filters (99% efficient) - SEE LINK http://www.spxfiltran.com/products/documents/DDSalesBrochure2008-2.pdf But I have discounted their 4 micron filter's ability to substantially exceed the performance of a 5 micron filter such as Wix if your following the DD proscribed oil/filter maintenace schedule - Now extended service is another story - Oil analysis is certainly the preferred method of indicating need for service, but I assume that the useful life of the lubricant based on the mileage/conditions/service/applications as defined and proscribed by DD are a maximum service life for lubricants w/o qualification or analysis of the Oil, and that Oil analysis provides a certain and "assumed" extension of proscribed service intervals based on "actual" lubricant conditions as apposed to "expected" lubricant service life based on the aforementioned defined mileage/conditions/service/applications - If you know of a replacement filter or system that has proven to filter 1/2 micron, I'm all ears - I haven't seen one approved by DD or any qualified testing organization - Heck, I'd like to find a decent TP that my finger won't go through (joke) BTW - Based on recent activity on the boards - this is NOT a flame - just my understanding of current technology - Open to new info - FWIW | ||
| Ricky D. West (Gg04)
Registered Member Username: Gg04 Post Number: 19 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 166.128.178.180 Rating: N/A |
Niles just google pm labs or services..lots of new S.A.E. papers in just the last couple of years..this is still a religious discussion on this board..I see these providers and thier services at all of the trade shows... they gain converts on thier performance...not misconceptions...gg | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Registered Member Username: Niles500 Post Number: 894 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.180.124.221 Rating: N/A |
Ricky - Hey I'm a believer in bypass filters - just don't believe that they can filter more than 20% or 30% at 1/2 Micron - And I believe 1/2 a Mic is overkill (like a grain of sand suspended in the Colorado River running through the Grand Canyon - sure its doing some damage - but I can't measure it) - think about the mills clearance tolerances, they don't even approach 1/2 Mic - That being said, the reasons I don't use a bypass filter nor recommend one for a "2 STROKE DD" RV is that in the 2 stroke DD you are also talking about fuel contamination and breakdown of the oil that a bypass filter can't control, and if I put 15k miles on my lubricant (per DD's lubricant service spec) there is a certainty that I have traveled some heavy grades at high temp under maximum load and a bypass filter is not going to reconstitute my oil if damaged by shear. I also don't want to pull over 5 times on my way to AK and change my filter on the side of the road. Now if I was running an OTR 4 stroker I'd have a bypass system, the best one I could find - I'm not sure I'd be using TP as the filter medium - not that it doesn't work, for some reason it soesn't sit well with me - FWIW Hope this clears up my miconceptions ;-) EDIT: P.S. SAE J1858 has been out for more than 20 years and bypass filter tech for over 40+ years - other than the types of filter medium technologies nothing much has changed - FWIW (Message edited by niles500 on December 27, 2008) | ||
| Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
Registered Member Username: Pvcces Post Number: 1247 Registered: 5-2001 Posted From: 65.74.69.188 Rating: N/A |
Niles, the toilet paper filter maker asks for a facial quality of paper, with fairly snug wrapping on the core. I've used MD brand and Scott brand paper with good results. The Scott 1000 sheet rolls were a bit on the tight side and the MD was slightly loose, but both have done their jobs. Soot on an oil analysis can show up to 6% or so, with the particle size down into the less than one micron range. Oil change is recommended if you get into the 5 or 6 % range. The oil in our engine is clean enough that with the engine hot, I can see through it while it is on the stick, and the lab shows us in the 1/2 to 1 % range most of the time. The lab shows the oil change interval as extendable in some reports. When the TBN gets down to about half of what it started with, I feel it is time to change the oil. I figure on changing the filter as soon as I get a chance anytime I dip the oil hot and I can't see through it on the stick. The oil is black but it is easily seen through along the edges of the stick when the filter is still working. When the filter becomes plugged, the oil becomes opaque on the stick. I hope some of the above is some help. Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576 Suncatcher Ketchikan, Alaska | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Registered Member Username: Niles500 Post Number: 895 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.180.124.221 Rating: N/A |
Tom - Thanks for the info, and it was of help - Just a few more ???'s if you will - With your experience running the TP bypass filters what is the average time/distance between oil changes on average? Are these filters being run in 2 strokes, 4 strokes or both? What is the oil consumption per 1000 miles? And how much has it changed since going bypass? How has your TBN numbers changed since you've been running ULSD (if you've been using bypass filters that long)? Are you using synthetics? Are you replenishing/using any additives other than what's contained in the oil itself? Do you test the Acid and Oxidation levels too? Have you tried any filter mediums other than TP? And if so how did they compare? Finally in reading my statement above concerning DD 2 stroke RV usage of bypass filters; Do you consider the statement total BS? Or do you think, that for those mills and types of use, a bypass system would be cost prohibitive or beneficial? | ||
| Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
Registered Member Username: Pvcces Post Number: 1249 Registered: 5-2001 Posted From: 65.74.69.188 Rating: N/A |
Hi, Niles. For us, the oil change interval seems to be about 15,000 miles; about 1 1/2 years. We're using toilet paper filters on both 2 and 4 stroke engines. Our oil consumption is around 550 to 600 miles to the quart; we haven't noticed a change in consumption, yet. We use no additives. We have been using Walmart Canada's CF-2 rated oil for the last oil change; before, it was Delo 100. We haven't noticed any change in the rate of TBN depletion. We probably don't have enough experience to see any change. We don't use any synthetics. While I haven't hunted for a synthetic, I might get temped to use one IF I found one specifically rated for two stroke diesels. Not otherwise. The oil analysis reports that stuff, some of it indirectly. The TBN covers the acid control and the viscosity report covers the oxidation and loss of upper ends of the oil through evaporation. These have not been an issue. I haven't tried a bypass other than toilet paper because I haven't seen any other that is rated down to 1/2 micron. I think the toilet paper filter is well worth the cost. It's relatively easy to change, much easier than the stock full flow. The big expense is up front. If you buy one new, they run $150 or so and the installation needs to be well done. A couple of hours should see you well into an installation. We've bought ours off eBay for around half of new. A couple of things made me think I wanted to try these out. One was that their original use was in small planes. Another was realizing that the main wear area in two strokes is at the ports. That made me think that shear of the oil molecules and contaminants causing wear by rings bulging slightly as they pass over the ports were both very important in these engines. A local fisherman that is very sucessful runs two stroke engines with tiolet paper filters. He says that his main engine was overhauled at 23,000 hours and that it was needing it by then. When I talk to people in the Detroit business, they talk about 6 to 8,000 hours before overhaul. And in bus service, you're generally looking at less than 10,000 hours. It think that the small particle wear rate makes more difference than most people think. If we weren't using a toilet paper filter, our drain interval would be half what it is. An oil change can go through a $100 bill pretty easily. Take care and Happy New Year. Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576 Suncatcher Ketchikan, Alaska | ||
| Nellie Wilson (Vivianellie)
Registered Member Username: Vivianellie Post Number: 109 Registered: 11-2008 Posted From: 70.52.102.111 Rating: N/A |
Okay, I've read ALL this stuff and I've reached an earthshaking conclusion: I want to try this TP by-pass filter thing. Problem: I haven't a nuttin' CLUE what you guys are talking about, or how to install one or WHERE to install one. In my commode, no problem... just stick the TP roll on the little spindle thingy, snap it in and I'm good to go... no pun intended (well, maybe a little intended). But, c'mon you guys... we're not all rocket scientists out here. Gimmee some basics? Thanks to all, and may you all have less than 1 micron of whatever ripping through your bearings (or whatever). Nellie Wilson PS. Has anyone considered the use of sanitary napkins? (just a thought) PPS. If not, would it be possible to recycle the TP? If tightly wrapped. of course? PPPS: My New Year's Wish: Oh, Lord, won't you buy me an MCI Bus? One that runs smooth and don't make no fuss. A bus that's all shiny and ain't got no rust, and a honkin' DD that I...I...I (gotta stretch here) can trust. Hey, youse guys, Happy New Year and God Bless! (Message edited by vivianellie on December 29, 2008) | ||
| Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
Registered Member Username: Pvcces Post Number: 1250 Registered: 5-2001 Posted From: 65.74.69.188 Rating: N/A |
Nellie, Google Frantz filter and Google Gulf Coast filters. You should find plenty of reading material. For what it's worth. Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576 Suncatcher Ketchikan, Alaska | ||
| ED Hackenbruch (Shadowman)
Registered Member Username: Shadowman Post Number: 86 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 68.27.52.207 Rating: N/A |
Ahhh,..... i hear the sweet ghost of Janice. may she rest in peace. :>) | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 621 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 66.82.9.62 Rating: N/A |
On our older (1944) 6-71 Navy issue , the only filtering is a bypass filter. No special filters , just the NAPA element that fits , but the oil is far cleaner. After an oil change and run , the oil is CLEAN!, not black like after a 5 min new oil run with the much newer coach 8V71. The oil STAYS clean to the 50 hour mark, afterwards getting darker and darker till change at 100 or 125 hours. Oil sampling is done on every change , and this seems to work with better sample numbers than the later full flow oil filter. On out next bus camper with a Ser 50 ,I will be adding a bypass filer , BUT I will use a proper filter , not just a roll of TP. Lubrifiner comes to mind. FF | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Registered Member Username: Niles500 Post Number: 896 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.180.124.221 Rating: N/A |
Tom, Thanks for the reply - The bulging rings gave me something to think on - Regards |
