| Author | Message | ||
| Nellie Wilson (Vivianellie)
Registered Member Username: Vivianellie Post Number: 173 Registered: 11-2008 Posted From: 70.52.103.80  Rating: N/A |
Here's the deal: Somtimes she cranks and she goes... like in less than a crank, even. Come back an hour later. grind... grind... grind, or nothing at all. When the bus won't start, there's a major drain... the lights fade to non-existence. Charging the 'A' battery (the top one) seems to do nothing. But charging the 'B' battery - even for a few minutes - gives her plenty of kick. The batts are good - both hold a 14+ anp charge, even in cold weather. The alternator (generator?) pumps 35+ amps. And though I haven't had it checked, the starter SOUNDS strong, And when it turns the engine, there's plenty of spin and no strange noises. So what's gong on? Thanks, Nellie wilson | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 643 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 64.241.37.140 Rating: N/A |
Start Batteries that have been killed by running to almost zero , or stored near dead are DEAD!!Even if they will hold a charge for 5 min. Only solution is 2 new batts AND either a hunt for a slow leak , or switches that cut the batts off from every coach load. FF | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 760 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.230.99.254  Rating: N/A |
Re: "Charging the 'A' battery (the top one) seems to do nothing. But charging the 'B' battery - even for a few minutes - gives her plenty of kick. " Kinda' self explanatory, ehh? Fred's absolutely right! Once a battery is drained to 0 or near 0, you mind as well toss it. Buy a new battery to replace the "B" one you're talking about. It's better to replace both at the same time, but $$$$? You should insure that the alternator isn't boiling the batteries, by the way. I had that problem with mine, and had to reset the regulator until the boiling ceased. The water level should stay well into the "normal" level. If you're adding water on a frequent basis, the alternator may be overcharging the battery, causing it to boil out. Lotsa' luck. Reason for the edit? That "B" battery is the one that always needs to be charged, not the "A". (Message edited by john_mc9 on January 21, 2009) | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 808 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 208.54.200.30 Rating: N/A |
I'm not as pessimistic as the others. The only way to check your batteries for sure is to fully charge them one at a time and then check each with a battery load tester. Checking voltage alone or amps accepted during charging won't do it. It could have one bad cell and one start would wipe out a good charge. Otherwise, you could have one of a dozen problems; corrosion, especially on the large battery cables. A loose connection on any of those cables, a bad starting relay or solenoid or corrosion at any of those terminals. A faulty starting switch (Happens more than you think). Assuming the batteries are ok the dimming of lights makes me think the problem could be in the large cables or the starter. Dim lights means low voltage which can be battery or cable or solenoid or starter. Since it starts easily and then an hour later it won't makes me suspect the starter relay too. You need to work through these things one at a time, starting with each battery, then cables, then the starting switch, then the relay, then the solenoid and starter. These things can drive you nuts. Hopefully it will be a battery. Spending the money is not nearly as painful as all that work running down the problem. I do agree with buying two batteries if one is bad unless the old one can pass the load test as well as a new one. Then I would only get one or get two and use the old one in another vehicle. (Message edited by gusc on January 21, 2009) | ||
| Sammy (Sammy)
Registered Member Username: Sammy Post Number: 89 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 68.237.215.35 Rating: N/A |
I agree with Gus, start with the batterys. Charge each one individually, have them load tested individually.Clean and inspect ALL cable connections including ground cables (while batterys are out of bus).Work safely, use gloves and safety glasses.AFTER you determine that you have 2 good batterys I would then check the charging system. | ||
| John Riddle (Jriddle)
Registered Member Username: Jriddle Post Number: 20 Registered: 3-2008 Posted From: 216.163.110.214  Rating: N/A |
I just went through this I had one bad battery. I replaced both and all is fine. John | ||
| Cameron Jones (Crazy71)
Registered Member Username: Crazy71 Post Number: 84 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 74.215.200.218 Rating: N/A |
Voltae tells you little on a car size or bigger battery. You have to test them with a load. I have a cheap retro style tester that looks like a metal box with a flip switch and two jumper cable ends on it. I got it from Harbor Freight fir 17.00. Does the job. A battery with a dead or weak cell can charge up just fine and show alomost 14 volts. It will drop to less than 11 under load though. | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 764 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.230.99.46 Rating: |
Well, the batteries are in series, and she said that when it doesn't crank, if she charges the "B" battery and not the "A" battery, the bus cranks again fine. That makes me think that it kinda' eliminates a loose connection or starter relay problem, and points to a likely dead cell in that "B" battery, or a real weak "B" battery; it ain't holding a charge. The series wired batteries aren't each going to be charged to full capacity by a 24v alternator, if one of those batteries aren't up to snuff. Going down the road may put a dandy 28 volts into the set, but one may be holding the charge, while the other isn't. The alternator and regulator doesn't care how the volts are distributed.. OK.... who's in the pool? Five bucks says it's that B battery. Let us know, Nellie! | ||
| Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
Registered Member Username: Pvcces Post Number: 1255 Registered: 5-2001 Posted From: 65.74.69.188 Rating: N/A |
Nellie, I don't know what setup you have, but the usual output of a bus generator is in the 200 to 300 range, so 35 amps doesn't look like much. I don't know what is wrong with your "B" battery, so I can't say that low generator output has anything to do with your "B" battery being weak. For what it's worth. Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576 Suncatcher Ketchikan, Alaska | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 1476 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 76.69.142.53  Rating: N/A |
Add in the further complication that there may be some freezing of the battery/batteries.... Winter time offers all manner of further problems that makes proper diagnosis of many systems difficult. Improper diagnosis costs you $$ money $$ that you might not need to spend. Put a 100 watt light bulb in there, wrap it all up so the wind isn't sucking the heat away and leave the charger on a low setting for a day. Then test with a load tester. happy coaching! buswarrior (Message edited by buswarrior on January 22, 2009) | ||
| Nellie Wilson (Vivianellie)
Registered Member Username: Vivianellie Post Number: 178 Registered: 11-2008 Posted From: 70.52.107.72 Rating: N/A |
Repeating my opening post: "The batts are good - both hold a 14+ amp charge, even in cold weather. The alternator (generator?) pumps 35+ amps." I think my terminology may have thrown everyone off. When I said 'amps' maybe I should have said 'volts'?? I don't know amps from elbows - nor volts, for that matter. But WHATEVER you guys check for, the numbers are the same. The guy that tested the charging / battery system said it checks out well above average. Still, it performs inconsistently - sometimes she cranks strong, sometimes this big drain.... Yesterday she fired on one crank (-8 C), the day before needed (a small) boost - from just my car batt and for only a couple minutes. Now I know why I wrote that song, "The Puzzle of My Heart"... it was about an MCI bus. Nellie Wilson PS. What DO I have? An alternator or a generator? What's the difference? | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 768 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 68.18.13.21 Rating: N/A |
If your alternator (generator) is feeding the batteries 35 vdc, then your batteries are being overcharged. 32v is the usual voltage, and I had to set mine closer to 28v to stop the first battery from getting boiled out. All that is in the Manual, by the way. If you've been unknowingly cooking one of the batteries (like that "B" one??), then it won't hold that great charge. It may or may not start, it absolutely will not hold a charge very long, and it eventually kill the other battery (if it's still good). The manual tells us that the service techie should set the regulator voltage just high enough to put a charge into the battery set, without causing them to boil. It does not set a specific voltage to use, because it would be an arbitrary figure; It's "trial and error" time. You can charge it, and the voltage will be great! Put a load on it, and it'll drop like a rock from the bridge at Chappaquiddick. Take the batteries over to your favorite NAPA store, and have them charge and test 'em, if you don't have a decent load tester. But from all that you've already 'splained, I think Fred has about the best suggestion: buy two new batteries. If you do, however.... make sure you get that regulator set properly, otherwise you'll be complaining about the same thing a week from now. Smile! It could be worse. | ||
| Paul Lawry (Dreamscape)
Registered Member Username: Dreamscape Post Number: 423 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 209.183.55.46  Rating: N/A |
Sounds like possibly a bad ground.....Maybe? These electrical gremlins have a way of driving us from nuts to bus nuts! | ||
| Nellie Wilson (Vivianellie)
Registered Member Username: Vivianellie Post Number: 181 Registered: 11-2008 Posted From: 70.52.107.72 Rating: N/A |
Well, John, these ARE new batteries. And the water level has never dropped significantly, certainly not enough to expose the plates. When I do occasionally top up, I use only distilled water. But that regulator thing? Hmmm. Where is it and how do I crank the voltage down a notch? Like you said, new batteries (assuming I need them) won't solve the problem if I overcook them too. Nellie Wilson | ||
| Don Evans (Doninwa)
Registered Member Username: Doninwa Post Number: 179 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 208.81.157.90  Rating: N/A |
A better way to load test is to charge the batteries and then let them set for a few days with no possibility of outside drain, ie disconnected. That means also disconnected from each other if in parallel. A battery just removed from charge can appear to have good capacity. If it has internal problems it may take some time for it to self discharge. If you can't wait to test then charge and put a fixed load on the batts like turning on the headlights for 10-15 minutes, something that any good battery should stand. Then load test. This will usually find a battery that is only taking a surface charge. The redneck load test is cranking the engine. Most non-professional load testers will not be able to load bus batteries long enough to get a real good test without creating excessive smoke. If you can't let your batts set for a few days after normal charge, then run your headlights for 15 minutes and then crank your engine for a while, time to think new batts. Good luck Don 4107 PS, Nellie, when you crank and the lights go dim, quick like a bunny touch every battery lead, grounds too, all the way to and including the starter, to see if one is warm. Caution, could be very warm. If so, it's a bad one and needs cleaned. (Message edited by doninwa on January 22, 2009) | ||
| Ralph Peters (Ralph_peters)
Registered Member Username: Ralph_peters Post Number: 14 Registered: 12-2008 Posted From: 206.251.9.233 Rating: N/A |
Nellie, Sounds like battery posts are good, cause if you have a poor connection point battery post (post will melt)done it. Next like others said check connections grounds even if they are TIGHT, they may need removed cleaned. Caution conncetions(studs/bolts) maybe brass do not over torque . First is engine turning fast not just turning. Do you have rear start ability? Check to see if you a heavy ground wire from back of starter to the ground stud on frame, NOT to the cradle. Oh on my MCI-7 and MC-8, the voltage regulator is located in the right rear bay on rear bulkhead with a box like cover and it has a hole the size of a quarter. Do not adjust without the book. mine is set at 28.5V. marked on the cover. | ||
| Paul Lawry (Dreamscape)
Registered Member Username: Dreamscape Post Number: 425 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 209.183.55.42 Rating: N/A |
Nellie, This is just to agree with Ralph on using "Da Book" for adjusting your voltage regulator. You should have a complete description on how to do it. I know my Eagle manual has it for our 12v system. Follow the directions closely! | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 810 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 208.54.200.57 Rating: N/A |
Nellie, It may be the battery, that's the reason to always start with the battery first. But there is no reason to buy two new batteries before checking the old ones first, especially since you say they are "new". However, even new batteries are sometimes no good. It's happened to me too many times. Secondly, you can't tell the condition of a battery by checking voltage or amps of charge, it must be load tested. Also, as just posted, the battery needs to sit a while before the load test. However, if it is really bad it won't last long on the load tester even if it is newly charged. Full fluid level doesn't necessarily mean the battery is good or bad, it just means it just means the owner paid attention. A weak battery will show 13.5 - 14Volts right after charge but that doesn't necessarily mean it is good. I repeat, Volt or Amp readings do not indicate the condition of a battery. Only a load test does. The possible need for cleaning battery cables includes all heavy cables and connections, not just at the battery posts. Which brings up another point. Battery posts and cable connections very often crust over with a black covering that is very hard to notice except in bright light. It looks very clean but it is a great insulator. This black covering must be scraped off until the posts and clamps are a bright silver color. Forget all this paragraph if you have stud and wing nut type battery connectors. John, She didn't say 35V, she said 35 amps. She also said 14 amps but meant Volts. It will be interesting to find out the final results of all this theorizing!! | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 769 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 68.18.13.21 Rating: N/A |
Although the manual suggests that the normal regulated voltage is usually 27.5, it tells the reader in very plain language, that the regulator should be set to charge the batteries as high a rate as needed, without boiling the water in the batteries. If your charging at 35v, it's way too high. If you've been adding water "occasionally", it's more often than normal, and it's probably been boiling out. Even if the battery had enough water to cover the plates, the heat from too high charge/volt rate may have been enough to do damage. It's a good idea to check the grounding lugs at the front and rear. In fact, it's best to take the connections apart (engine cradle and chassis), and sand the surfaces clean. Often the connection will degrade between the washers and bolt/nuts to the steel. You can't see where it's a weak connection, and it doesn't always heat up. I think we all hate to see you hitting the road when you're still having problems that have yet to be resolved; It's a ticket for a lousy ride. *Bus regulator docs are here* (but only for a short time) | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 770 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 68.18.13.21 Rating: N/A |
Gus - Nel said this, a few posts up: "Repeating my opening post: "The batts are good - both hold a 14+ amp charge, even in cold weather. The alternator (generator?) pumps 35+ amps." I think my terminology may have thrown everyone off. When I said 'amps' maybe I should have said 'volts'?? I don't know amps from elbows - nor volts, for that matter. " And with that, I would say at 35 volts, one of the batteries (if not both) have seen better days prior to this application.. (I've had bad batteries look great on the shop's load tester). This gal's anxious to go, in a rig that sounds like it just wants to retire, with an intermittent starting problem, that a truck "wrench" can't figure out (he said it looked better than normal). Nel looks better than normal, so maybe the "wrench" meant that? HAR! Man. Nel..... we wish you much luck. Take your time, and don't go rolling out until the bus is ready to roll out. As a former driver (albeit years back), we didn't take a rig out if there was a problem with it while we were still at the barn. And no boss would have wanted that either; lost trip or not. | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 1481 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 76.66.19.129 Rating: |
There are two small groups of busnuts who BELIEVE when there is mention of "preventive maintenance" Those that run in the frozen north, and those that run in the summer desert. Temperature extremes will expose every weakness in the machine and your/the previous owner's maintenance habits. And make repairing the deficiencies in those conditions difficult to intolerable. Nellie, take note of the forecast, you have a small window...take advantage of it, either run or repair. We're going deep freeze again on the weekend. happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| Nellie Wilson (Vivianellie)
Registered Member Username: Vivianellie Post Number: 186 Registered: 11-2008 Posted From: 74.13.197.170 Rating: N/A |
I gotta say I love every one of you guys. Your concern is welcome and very touching. And though I'm almost weak-kneed at the prospect of this trip, I really have little choice. See, I'm in this town where there's very little work (and less future) for someone like myself (a lowly musician). And getting my bus in perfect order around here is proving impossible. My choices? Go (even further) north (Montreal) or head south. But I can't really go north (even if I wanted to) because I've no place to leave my bus for an extended period of time... I'd have to take it with me. And then what? Same ol', same ol' - the problems remain the same. And, look, I really think the bus is in pretty good shape. Maybe not good enough for this climate, but what is? I see every day equipment much newer than mine that won't start, won't air up, etc. [But I'm about convinced (from your posts) that I my problem is the regulator setting. My mechanic thought charging at 35 volts was just swell but, obviously, it's not. Thanks Ralph, for that information on the regulator location.) Anyway, nearly all my problems have been weather related or of my own doing (like putting her in a super humid shop during sub-zero conditions. Dumb!). I mean, she sat for three years before I got her, yet she carried me across a good portion of Canada. And since then I've done - or have had done - tons of work on her. Or am I whistling past the cemetary? Hey, Ralph, check my post on the 'Newbie' thread... I left you a PS. Nellie Wilson | ||
| Patrick levenson (Zubzub)
Registered Member Username: Zubzub Post Number: 45 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 76.66.203.54  Rating: N/A |
run for it! I drove my bus 1000 mile after checking fluids and brakes. I didn't even have a working alt and had to keep the batts charged with a small portable gas generator I have (a must for a bus is and alternate source of power, ac and dc, plus it can run my compressor). If you can air up and are reasonably sure of tires and brakes, go for it. Maybe Good Sam or whatever tow insurance. If you stay here any longer the spring will come. Once you are 1000 miles south everything will be easier. | ||
| Patrick levenson (Zubzub)
Registered Member Username: Zubzub Post Number: 46 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 76.66.203.54 Rating: N/A |
oh yeah if you don't have the info, download and print the info JohnMC9 posted a link to. Make sure the prints are legible, maybe make two copies. | ||
| Nellie Wilson (Vivianellie)
Registered Member Username: Vivianellie Post Number: 188 Registered: 11-2008 Posted From: 70.52.106.248 Rating: N/A |
Hi John MC9 - Fantastic Information you posted; I see I've got some cramming to do... hope I learn something'  You sure went to a lot of trouble and I know everybody really appreciates it. I certainly do. Nellie |
