| Author | Message | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1302 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.110.9  Rating: N/A |
Found this site while on another forum. Looks promising. http://usaled.com/page/nizq/LED_Products.html | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 771 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 68.18.13.21  Rating: N/A |
Dunno boss..... It was only a few threads back, that another busnut raked me over the coals for even suggesting such a thing! Light angle, luminescence, DOT codes, laws, and legislation, the list went on and on... illegal for use in any vehicle... Here's that last thread: LED light conversion | ||
| Tom Christman (Tchristman)
Registered Member Username: Tchristman Post Number: 56 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.218.33.156 Rating: N/A |
Just remember-LED technology is advancing at a rate of increasing the intensity of the LEDs-doubling the light output every year. So if you don't like the light output now, wait a few months, and it should be available. I firmly believe LED is the next lighting frontier that will truly save huge chunks of electricity once they get bright enough (read like a 100 watt light) to power most homes. Good Luck, TomC | ||
| David B. Sweet (Sweets4104)
Registered Member Username: Sweets4104 Post Number: 18 Registered: 2-2007 Posted From: 71.195.101.200  Rating: N/A |
Seems to there is a lot of OEM and thied party LED lighting products used on trucks, buses and autos these days. When did these codes and laws come into effect?? | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 776 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 72.146.79.49 Rating: N/A |
Dunno, David. You'll have to scroll down to that other thread and ask the guy that made the fuss! | ||
| Chuck Newman (Chuck_newman)
Registered Member Username: Chuck_newman Post Number: 290 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 76.246.254.144 Rating: N/A |
If it's got a DOT specification on the lens, it's legal to be sold in U.S. and used on the road. I didn't read the other post, but did that person offer documentation to back up their claim? Take a trip to your local truck stop and check the LED lighting available. | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 746 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.29 Rating: N/A |
That person was me, and yes, I did. The other thread (and at least some of what is being sold on the link at the top of this one) dealt with replacing incandescent bulbs in standard DOT fixtures with LED replacement items that have been made with a compatible base. These are not and have never been street-legal in the US or Canada unless they are tested and certified (with the specific fixture) to meet the photometric requirements. None of the peddlers of these aftermarket replacement items has ever done any photometric testing with any specific fixture, and even if they had, the item would still not be legal to use with any other fixture. DOT/SAE rated *assemblies*, which are something else entirely, are a different matter. These LED assemblies have been photometrically tested by the manufacturer to meet the standards. To achieve this, the design and placement of the LEDs goes hand in hand with a specially designed lens, often involving Fresnel elements, and, on some assemblies, a reflector as well. Without the proper instrumentation and many hours of testing, you can not simply plug an "1157-type" LED "bulb" into a fixture made for an incandescent and expect it to meet the standards. For that matter, you can't even adapt a different incandescent into such a fixture than the one for which it was designed -- even the placement of the filament within the glass envelope is important to the photometric performance of the lamp. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 778 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 72.146.79.49 Rating: |
I've always taken bus driving very seriously. There's nothing more important of a commodity a commercial vehicle can carry, than human beings. In all the years I've driven buses, trucks, and tractor-trailers, in both full-time and part-time ventures; as a casual observer during all the years I've been gainfully employed at other occupations (as well as my retired years)...... I (like most other readers) have witnessed countless commercial buses, trucks and tractor-trailers with marker, tail lights, and brake lights of varying intensities on the same vehicle. If for a dirty lens, old bulb, wiring problem, or poor power, bulbs on the same vehicle will vary from light assembly to light assembly. We may very often see replacement assemblies on those same type vehicles, of brightness levels that vary greatly. They may all be "DOT" approved, yet their intensities are not the same! To assume that using an LED bulb that is not "DOT approved" will cause serious harm, and even death, is ludicrous. Even those DOT approved light assemblies vary in brilliance from one make and model to another, while conforming to the required DOT standards. I'm not out to ridicule anyone, but common sense should prevail. The fact is, LED lights last longer and do not fail due to filament vibration, as do the incandescent types. I would much prefer to drive behind a vehicle with both brake lights that work, even if of varying intensities, than a vehicle with a brake light out. It's much ado about nuttin'. LEDs make great replacements, and commercial companies are switching to them. There's no reason any busnut should be frightened to switch over to them. You may be fined for a light that doesn't work, but it's not too likely any will be ever tested for "DOT approved brilliance tolerances". good grief. | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 747 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.29 Rating: N/A |
John, I agree that LEDs make great replacements. All the lights on my bus are LED. But, sheesh, if you can afford the bus, you can afford to buy approved lights. It's not that hard. The LEDs that you claim commercial companies are switching to happen to be DOT/SAE assemblies, not aftermarket incandescent-replacement items. Not a single fleet operator is using these unapproved replacements. I can't imagine you'd buy substandard brake shoes, or non-DOT approved tires. Why should your lights be any different? And, I'm sorry, but I just don't agree with you that these replacement "bulbs" are safe. Most of them are hardly noticeable from any angle other than dead-on. There is a reason the standards exist -- hard-to-see lights lead to accidents. The fact that some unsafe drivers happen to be driving around with dirty lenses or half their bulbs burned out is not really relevant to the discussion. That sort of driving behavior also leads to accidents. As I wrote in the other thread, if everyone gets to decide for himself what constitutes acceptable safety equipment for vehicles on a public roadway, we start down a slippery slope. You don't agree with the law -- that's your prerogative. But if you are going to come here on a public forum and proselytize to everyone reading that they can safely ignore part of the law, just because you think it's OK, I will continue to argue with you every time. You are not the arbiter of whether any replacement lamp is safe -- the DOT and SAE are. Your opinion on the matter is just that, an opinion. The law and standards, OTOH, are black and white, and well established. Telling folks that it's OK because it is "not too likely [they] will be tested" is a specious argument. It's extremely unlikely you'll ever be weighed, either, but that doesn't make it safe to overload your axles. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 779 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 72.146.79.49 Rating: N/A |
Sean - You're a nice guy; an intellectual, and have some "street smarts" as well (I'm sure). In our fine Nation, much bad legislation and law has passed. The only way to correct bad legislation, and law, is to disobey it; There is no other legal recourse than that. More simply (for other readers): If a law does not make sense, you can not go to court and claim it does not make sense without a reason for doing so. I.E.: You have to show a loss. If you "break" that law, and are fined; you have "lost" something. You then, have your chance to argue the case before court. In doing so, perhaps that law will be changed, thanks to your effort. In this ridiculously simple matter of "over-the-counter" LED lights vs DOT rubber-stamped approved lights, the law is not correct, nor fair. As we all know, "DOT approved" lights have a tolerance level of brightness, luminescence, tone, and angle of illumination. The DOT approved brands, all differ within the set tolerance, sometimes very greatly. A maker of LED lights must either pay the price to be approved, or market his wares without the sacred "DOT" approval, and state that they are not " DOT approved". Are they inferior simply due to the maker refusing to "pay to play", even though they are well within the "DOT" specifications? Let's face it, no-one, no commercial operator - would buy them if they didn't do the job properly. I'm going to step off the political soap box before I lose another reader, but would like to apologize to you, if you've found anything I've typed, insulting. We all have to make choices in life. If any one of us can afford to buy a bus to convert, it shouldn't be assumed that the same individual can afford to "pay to play". There are other options that work fine, that do not cause harm, and are a helluva lot less expensive than some others of us can afford. It really is, "Much ado about nuthin'" Best wishes to ya'. | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 748 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.47 Rating: N/A |
Please name even one commercial operator who is using unapproved "1157 replacement" LEDs in incandescent fixtures in their fleet. You keep asserting that this is the case, and yet I have never, ever seen it. Every single fleet truck and bus I have seen with LEDs has DOT-labeled LED assemblies. (Not talking single-cab owner-operators here.) And I still maintain that your assertion that these lamps are somehow just as good as rated LED assemblies, and merely lack approval for some bureaucratic administrative reason, is false. As I said in the other thread, I have worked with these lamps before. And I can state with certainty and from experience that they are not sufficiently visible in off-angle directions, period. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1306 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.110.9 Rating: N/A |
Shawn, you have good points, but Geez.. lighten up a little. If the light is as bright as what was there and doesn't look funny viewing it, go for it unless a lawyer or a DOT official lives next to you.One could ask if DOT approved you changing your lights to LED's on your coach when the mfgr. designed it specifically for incandescents. We don't need a flame war to start. | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 445 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.209.227.72 Rating: N/A |
Good grief!!!.....   RCB | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 1484 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 76.66.19.131  Rating: N/A |
I think having the DOT approval on one's lighting is in the "good neighbour" department. I wouldn't want someone to not see my intentions because I had unwittingly installed a lighting device which did not meet the performance criteria, both in field of view and brightness. That would ruin their day and mine! In particular, we need to consider daytime use, when the stray illumination will not conveniently light up the plastic housing in any direction except where it is aimed. And, the super bright ones are just painful to the poor SOB that has to sit behind you in traffic. Let's respect the fact that there are topics which push some folk's hot buttons, and that we're all here to help one another stay out of trouble, whether it be conversion techniques or brushes with the revenuers, eh? happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 782 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.230.99.159 Rating: N/A |
Now - "this" - is what keeps these forums interesting!! | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 1486 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 76.66.19.131 Rating: N/A |
And the prices of DOT LED's are tumbling, both the whole units and LED replacement bulbs. Retail places will try to soak you for the big dollars for as long as they can, as we are used to seeing them for high dollars. Check with your proper parts place with the full line and the catalogues, not the truck stop flash and grab. You might be pleasantly surprised? Saw some LED replacements at the Freightliner dealership yesterday for the little glass 194 bulbs! Darn, I didn't think to price those babies, had other things on my mind at the time.... New acronym: " UT " useless twit? happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 783 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.230.99.159 Rating: N/A |
This is an absolutely true story: A bunch of months back, as I sat at the truck shop waiting to get a price for a chip for my 7.3, the guy ahead of me talked about the new addition he was getting installed for his F150.... LED light assemblies for the rear. I was amazed. The guy was spending almost a grand to replace the perfectly fine assemblies, with this new wave item! Oh yeah, it looked OK... It was brand new, just like his old ones. I mean... it was a 2008 vehicle... what, maybe 5,6 months old? They had to modify something with the speed control, so it was taking some time. And the funny part of it all, was when they installed the first DOT approved light assembly into the vehicle, and had him stand in back and make sure he liked the way it looked.... He turned to me and asked me if I thought the new ones were as bright as the original ones. He didn't seem to think they were. I didn't say a word, one way or the other... but he was right, they didn't look as bright as the OE side. Worse, it seemed even dimmer, when we stood off to one side. He wanted them, regardless, and paid the bread. And now that I read Sean's comments again, I see that the one important issue (if not the most important issue) to Sean, was: Brightness and visibility.. That's important to me also, just as it should be to anyone else! It should make a person -really- wonder: If DOT approved LED light assemblies are not as bright, or dispense their light as well as the OE equipment, why are they selling them? Why had the Department Of Transportation placed an approval on them, when they clearly do not work as well? It should make the same individuals that are already doing all this wondering, wonder why non-DOT approved bulb replacements weren't approved. So waddya' say we all abandon this thread, go to the local truck shop, NAPA store, or WalMart, and buy one LED replacement bulb, and try it out on our own vehicle. Do the test. You can always return the bulb later, saying you didn't know it wasn't DOT approved. At least we'll see for ourselves, and not be forced to rely on big government's notion that we are all fools that need to be spoon fed. Cheer up, BW. Spring's just around the corner! OH.... and as a side note to Sean? Congrats for going to see the Inauguration! It was indeed, a historical moment worth living for. The new guy's got 8 years of trash to take out, so we're wishing him luck! We don't expect miracles, just a return to Constitutional paths. (gee, wouldn't that be nice?) | ||
| Josh McElhiney (Zcommanager)
Registered Member Username: Zcommanager Post Number: 10 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 166.217.219.163 Rating: N/A |
WOW!!! That was pretty intense! I could almost feel the heat radiating through the keyboard!!! | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 750 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.12 Rating: N/A |
Thanks, John. We never made it through the gate, though -- caught in the security fiasco (Google "purple tunnel of doom" for all the gory details). Still, it was impressive to see DC so crowded and festive. I think the only thing that stopped the party from turning all-out into, say, Mardi Gras, was the fact that it was 18° out. We're back in the relative warmth of the south now. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Registered Member Username: Niles500 Post Number: 901 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 173.78.29.189 Rating: N/A |
.... it appears that arguments being made here about skirting (or outright ignoring) the law .... are no different than the arguments used recently by certain Wall Street wildcaters .... it appears that EVERYONE believes the rules don't apply to them .... deciding who needs to follow them merely depends upon which side of the fence your standing .... | ||
| Bruce Henderson (Oonrahnjay)
Registered Member Username: Oonrahnjay Post Number: 360 Registered: 8-2004 Posted From: 66.248.160.34  Rating: N/A |
Niles wrote: ".... it appears that arguments being made here about skirting (or outright ignoring) the law" Niles, I spent the better part of my working career dealing with DOT (and associated SAE, ASTM, etc.) standards as they apply to motor vehicles. There are some little glitches (mostly historical stuff that doesn't make much sense in modern days -- the terrible N American beam patterns go back to a group of Ford engineers in the '30's who felt that it was *by far* more important to prevent glare to oncoming drivers than to give useful light down the road) but overall the standards are very useful. But one thing that they don't allow (and one thing that the "mixers and matchers" are doing) is the use of a bulb with non-standard light location and brightness in an otherwise-approved lighting device. If you buy an LED taillight from, say, Grote with a DOT/SAE stamp on it, the entire light distribution and brightness will be to standard and safe on the road. If you take an old taillight housing and put a different bulb in it, you never know what you're getting. Sean is right -- this is an area to be very careful about. | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 784 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 72.146.76.189 Rating: |
OK.....One more outburst from me, than that's it: Re: "If you take an old taillight housing and put a different bulb in it, you never know what you're getting. " And standing behind the vehicle to check for a comparison between a new bulb and the OE variety; moving one side to the other of the vehicle; checking in both daylight, dusk, and dark of night, wouldn't be a good enough check to the average human being? I'm not sure how intelligent anyone thinks others around them are, but I certainly give people more credit than that statement appears to. I would sooner trust my own judgement, than to blindly follow a government standard. I'm equally as certain, that anyone with a brain, is just as capable. I'm no genius, but I can see as well as anyone else, and can manage to tell what is as bright, and what illuminates equally as well... Those new "Blue" head lamps are a total nuisance to every oncoming vehicle, yet approved in most states. The list of bureaucratic errors, and pay-for-play ideological schemes are running rampant in this world. It's time for people to get back to thinking for themselves, and forgo the sheep call of the elite. Money may talk -loudly-, but it shouldn't deafen the inner words of a person's common sense. "Question Authority" (I'm done) | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 752 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.27 Rating: N/A |
John, if that were true -- if every citizen had good judgment to begin with, and could be trusted to use that judgment every time -- we wouldn't really need laws. What more realistically happens is this: Someone comes across one of these web sites (like the one cited at the beginning of this thread, or the beginning of the other thread), and falls prey to the marketing hype that these lights are just as safe -- no, even safer -- than the incandescent bulbs they will replace, and they will last "forever." Then that person shells out, say, $100-$200 for enough of them to replace all their incandescent bulbs. They then go out and put them in. Period, end of story. They generally do not buy just one bulb, make a side by side luminescence comparison, then, only after careful consideration, move ahead with a complete replacement. Moreover, the person who has plunked down that kind of money is not likely to perceive that the money was ill-spent. Lastly, none of these companies with give you your money back simply because you did not like the lights, or the output did not meet your expectations -- they all have non-compliance disclaimers and tight return policies. BTW, most of the "blue" headlamps are also illegal, for the same reasons. Only factory-built, DOT-approved HID assemblies are legal, found only on high-end cars like Mercedes. Correctly constructed HID assemblies do not increase glare to oncoming drivers. But the market is replete with aftermarket "HID upgrade kits" (do an eBay search -- you'll find thousands). This is exactly the same problem we're discussing with tail and marker lamps -- the reflectors and lenses made for incandescent headlight bulbs are simply not correct for HIDs. Your advocacy of ignoring the safety standards as an act of civil disobedience, or as a mechanism to get the law changed, is, IMO, irresponsible. I, for one, do not want to live in the anarchy you propose in your last paragraphs. While I may trust you, or even the average bus nut, to make responsible decisions, I absolutely do not trust the "average" person to make responsible decisions when it comes to technology and safety. The world would be a wonderful place if I could, but history suggests otherwise. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1309 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.110.9 Rating: N/A |
I hope you aren't inferring that the HID lamps on those high end cars don't increase glare to oncoming drivers. They are just as bad as some of the other ones at slight off angles or if unevenly loaded. As far as good judgment, "engineers" have their fair share of screw ups. I wouldn't single out led lights when many, many modifications to our coaches fall under the same concerns, and are done by people with possibly suspect judgment. Your concerns are valid; they just sound a little intense. | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 448 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 70.212.223.228 Rating: N/A |
......hadn't thought of that term.... RCB (Message edited by chuckllb on January 26, 2009) | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 785 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 72.146.76.133 Rating: N/A |
Words from some of the greater anarchists of our time: If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so. – Thomas Jefferson When the government fears the people, it is liberty. When the people fear the government, it is tyranny. – Thomas Paine Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of Liberty. – Thomas Jefferson God grants liberty only to those who love it, and are always ready to guard and defend it. – Daniel Webster (1834) If any were around today, they'd tell you to take your light bulbs and screw them into your dark abyss. "anarchy" Indeed. You guys are too, too much. Really. (Now.......... I'm really done!) | ||
| Wvanative (Wvanative)
Registered Member Username: Wvanative Post Number: 15 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 173.23.184.104 Rating: N/A |
OK guy break, go to your respective corners. listen for my commands, and watch the low blows. keep your gloves up at all times. Lets keep it clean, (Hand pointing to center of the ring) all right men continue and lets have fun. Wvanative | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 787 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 72.146.76.133 Rating: N/A |
Wvanative - No-one's really fighting, it's all just a voicing of opinions. It's kinda' nice to feel the fire, ehh? Warms the soul!  | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Registered Member Username: Niles500 Post Number: 903 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 173.78.29.189 Rating: N/A |
Bruce for the sake of clarity: I was agreeing with both you and Sean - HTCTA | ||
| John Lacey (Junkman42)
Registered Member Username: Junkman42 Post Number: 67 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 69.19.14.16  Rating: N/A |
I didn't even want the chinese junk led's but I am now going to buy some if My savings are restored by those that always think that a bunch of goverment idiots know best. Anarchy indeed, surely You jest! I am calling Al Whore and report all of those that think that filament bulbs use too much energy,LOL. John | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1313 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.110.9 Rating: N/A |
Here is a great site for LED bulbs. http://usaled.com/page/nizq/LED_Products.html Should be great for interior coach applications. PLEASE check with Sean before even considering using these on exterior surfaces, as you could/ will be breaking the law. Sorry guys, the fire is going down and it is still pretty chilly here. | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 753 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.35 Rating: N/A |
My work here is done... | ||
| Wvanative (Wvanative)
Registered Member Username: Wvanative Post Number: 16 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 173.23.184.104 Rating: N/A |
Ding, ding, ding, ding, at the 2:29 of 12th round, and still undefeated the winner by TKO ( technical knowledge orator ) “The Beast from the Bus” “The Man with a Plan” our very own , Sean Wildman Welsh. Very good guys you all came out throwing lots of info for us technically challenge to learn from. I know that no one was mad, and I really enjoyed the exchange of idea’s . WVaNative |
