| Author |
Message |
johnwood (206.252.250.1)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 27, 2002 - 3:33 pm: | |
Need some feedback on the handling of a coach/toad combo with supplemental braking and without. In looking into a brake system and I had one purveyor of towbars say that having brakes on the toad would cause posible loss of control when on ice. Any first hand experiences?
I will be driving in all conditions due to my job and would like to be prepared! |
Henry R. Bergman, Jr. (Henryofcj) (63.224.197.10)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 27, 2002 - 4:56 pm: | |
In my humble opinion which is probably not shared with others, perhaps the best way to go would be just to get a small single axle car trailer with its own brakes.
Why go to all the bother of getting some nice toad only to find out it may require a thousand bucks or sooss just to modify it for road towing which is still unsafe.
Then have to spend MORE $$$ getting the toad brakes to work properly while being towed soosss you have the privilage is still not being able to back up any distance.
Get a car trailer. The safety concerns overwhelm any other consideration including whatever argument others could possibly present regarding
Towing a toad on its own wheels or using one of those lousy dangerous (can not back up) dollys that lift up the front axle. Please remember...
There will come that point in time and space where you will REALLY have to be able to IMMEDIATELY back up your rig with the toad. With a car trailer
One can practice this emergency maneuver before hand at YOUR convenience, not some situation beyond your control. Thank you, sorry and good luck. |
Dale Fleener (64.66.216.186)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 27, 2002 - 5:30 pm: | |
Another plus to using a trailer is that if you put a hitch on your toad, you can pull the trailer around with the toad.
Never know when you will need to pick something up that you need to make life a little easier.
Something to think about. |
Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy) (66.190.119.82)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 27, 2002 - 6:04 pm: | |
Although a two wheel trailer is ideal for most circumstances, you end up with three vehicles. Many campgrounds do not have sufficient space and/or will not allow three vehicles in the same space. Many do not have an overflow area either to park the trailer. I bit the bullet before and put in a drive shaft disconnect. My current vehicle has a neutral that allows unlimited towing.
As far as the ice is concerned, having brakes on the toad, that are controllable from the coach, is of great benefit to help stop a skid or to help reduce swaying when being passed by a tractor trailer.
Richard |
Dwight (67.213.8.250)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 27, 2002 - 11:04 pm: | |
I had a friend that had a 2 axle trailer to load his toad on, the problem he had was once the car was on the trailer he could not open the door of the car to get out because the trailer fenders were in the way , he had to open the rear hatch-back and crawl out through it, he was 75 years old !!!!!! quiet a sight....he kept it one season then went to towing the car with a tow hitch on the car.....LOL.... |
Bill Butler (172.136.19.44)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 27, 2002 - 11:59 pm: | |
I think is depends a lot on what you are towing.
We have towed our Honda Civic with automatic tranny for about eighteen thousand miles with no problems what-so-ever. No auxillary brakes on the car. The brakes on the 4905 handle it just fine. |
FAST FRED (63.215.232.135)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 28, 2002 - 5:27 am: | |
BB just gave away the secret,
tow a SMALL car thats suitable for towing,
4 down , no brakes required,
Dont Worry Be Happy!
Almost Instant hookup , very quick to disconnect, much easier to get into your campsite.
AND more likely to be where you left it after touring a downtown than a big buck show item.
FAST FRED |
Steven Gibbs (12.148.43.7)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 28, 2002 - 7:08 am: | |
During our last ten years of owning and traveling in motorhomes (and now a bus) I just never got around to spending the cash to set up one of our vehicles for towing. We either rented something when we got there or (more often) simply planned our travel to make all our stops prior to checking into the campground.
No single trip ever seemed to be worth the bother and cost, although in the long run I was sure it would have been worth it.
So, when I started converting the bus, one of the first things I planned for was a tow hitch and tow bar. We purchased a Tracker two years ago with the specific purpose of towing.
On our first big trip (two week vacation down the Natchez Trace and return through the Smoky Mountains) we towed the Tracker. It handled fine and I needed the camera to confirm it was even back there. We put 500 miles on the Tracker during various excursions and we only had to unhitch once to get out of a tight situation.
FF is right, a small, light-weight vehicle without additional braking is the right choice for a towed vehicle. If your needs call for hauling the "Crown Vic" or full size SUV/Pickup auxillary braking or better yet, a two-axle trailer would be better.
I'll probably never travel any real distance without the toad again.
One lesson learned: I bought the cheaper type bar that folds back and down onto the toad and uses the standard hitch ball. After watching a fellow camper struggle with the type that is remove from the toad and folded onto the hitch (in a rain storm) I'm glad (and so is Gloria(unhitching and hitching up is her job while I sit in the driver's seat and drink coffee)) that we went with the simpler solution.
FWIW,
Steve Gibbs
MC-9 (97% complete!)
Pontiac |
Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy) (66.190.119.82)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 28, 2002 - 7:17 am: | |
Brakes on toad vehicles are required in Canada, and I saw a recent post indicating that some states had already passed a law requiring them and that it was in process in other states.
I recently had a near accident and I believe the brakes on the toad was the only thing that saved me from a catostrophic accident. Do not leave home without them. I am certain my grandson would have been killed if I had not got stopped in time.
Have never heard of a toad being stolen and typically toads are not the type of vehicle professional thieves or chop shops look for.
Richard |
Johnny (63.159.128.26)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 28, 2002 - 9:23 pm: | |
I plan to tow one of 3 vehicles: 1986 Cherokee 4x4, 1986 K-5 Blazer diesel, 1977 Power Wagon. All can be towed 4-down (4WD), & I plan to use a Brake Buddy or something similar.
I don't like dolleys. |
Steven Gibbs (12.148.43.8)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 29, 2002 - 9:20 am: | |
I plan to have the Tracker weighed soon. My guess until then is that it will fall somewhere between the 1000 lbs some states require and the 3000 lbs other states (including Michigan) allow before brakes are required on towed vehilces (cars, trailers, etc.) Many other states (including Canada) require brakes at 1500 lbs.
Now the question is (orginally posed unanswered by George Myers in the Sept 02 Bus Mag) if my state does not require brakes until 3000 lbs and my toad is 2150 lbs and my vehicles are registered in my state, am I exempt from more stringent requirements in other states I travel through. (Sounds like state's rights vs. federal laws). I have never heard of a problem with boater's and travel trailer owners that travel between states with the more restrictive (1000 lb) requirements.
Now for the moral issue of not being responsible for injury to another because I did not make every effort to operate a "safe" unit.
Again, assuming that my Tracker weighs something like 2000 lbs that works out to 13.3333 passengers (based on the industry average of 150 lbs each) boarding my bus. It also can easily represent the difference between driving the coach with low fuel, no water, no propane, etc. and driving it fully loaded for a trip.
My unit now weighs 31,400 with full tanks, another 2000 lbs puts me 3100 lbs below the max GVW. MCI designed the bus to stop with that max load in mind (another reason for the tag axle).
This issue does bring up an interesting subject: Although I say "without the backup camera I wouldn't even know it was there", does the added 2000 lbs actually "measurably" increase my stopping distance?. I have just the place in mind to do some stopping distance tests.
Again, the key here is small tow vehicle and being at least in compliance with your own state's regulations. Larger vehicles like Johnny's can certainly be towed 4-down with supplimental braking, I just haven't seen a system I feel I could control like a good set of electric brakes on a two axle trailer. It is likely the lack of brakes on large toads that is bring law enforcment attention to this subject.
Steve |
DaveD (216.18.113.69)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 29, 2002 - 9:49 am: | |
It may also affect the handling in an emergency braking situation. Since the toad is behind the bus on a pivot, not inside it, it's more than just a matter of the weight.
IMHO
DaveD |
Tom Connolly (148.78.247.10)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 29, 2002 - 4:42 pm: | |
I don't think that you can compare the carried weight that increases wheel traction to the toad weight that is pushing on you. On a straight stop pushing you forward, on a curve pushing your rear around to the front (jackknife position) and depending on the hitch height & tow bar causing lift on the rear of the tow vehicle during hard braking.
That said I have pulled a E250 fully loaded (+ - 9k lbs) to many FMCA conventions Excess of 100,000 miles 4 down incident free behind a 4104 stock running gear, no tow vehicle brakes.
Getting the toad going is no problem, Safely stopping is not as easy especially when your in a mountain town going down a decent grade and the guy in front of you in a little 2200 lb car steps on the gas to make that next traffic light, "you know the one that both you and he can safely clear!", then he or she has a second thoughts and slams on the brakes in front of you as you are accelerating down the grade!
Well so far for me My Wife's Angels have always intervened. and if a inch of clearance, crapped pants, a racing heart and a screaming Wife is Ok then these must be normal and safe stops.
I used to subscribe to the thinking of a pilot "any landing that everyone can walk away form is a good landing" now that the 1st half of life is behind me I believe in slower speeds, more distance and things like brakes on the tow vehicle, the other guy may be wrong but I don't want to end up dead proving him wrong. I'm hoping this might keep me and my loved ones around a little longer than my prior I'm invincible thinking!
In my opinion go for the brakes on the toad!
Oh, my State lets me carry a loaded gun on my hip, can I get away with it in your State by arguing I'm not from here & it's ok where I live! Just wondering. After all Ignorance is 9 tenths of the law, or was that possession?
Tom C |
Peter Broadribb (Madbrit) (170.215.60.225)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 29, 2002 - 4:48 pm: | |
Tom C,
interesting last point. Arizona has a NO helmet law whereas Nevada and California make the rider wear one. But, I was told that a sandrail/dune buggy registered in AZ can drive fenderless in NV & CA without a problem when their own residents have to run fenders for street use...... go figure.
Peter. |
dougthebonifiedbusnut (24.218.119.24)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 29, 2002 - 6:35 pm: | |
gentlemen
i plan to pull my wrangler on all fours with no supplimental braking in mass i am pretty sure its 3k before you need brakes but i can tell you this from experience that you should be able to stop just fine an extra 3k lbs IF you have your brakes in good working order and thay are adjusted properly case in point ive driven ten wheel dump trucks in excess of 85k lbs stops just fine with the braks done up right even the two axle rigs should have no problem if you do have a problem i think y0ou better chek you system |
Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy) (66.190.119.82)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 29, 2002 - 11:40 pm: | |
Tom, the dune buggies are registered as a street legal vehicle in Arizona, and meet the registration/equipment requirements for that state. Every state has their own requirements. California will honor the Arizona registration as they will honor the registration of any vehicle from any state. However, if you tried to register that same vehicle in California the DMV would reject your application since it does not meet their registration requirements.
Doug, I think you are mixing apples and oranges. Your ten wheel dump truck was designed with brakes to safely stop that vehicle. Just as the bus was designed with brakes to safely stop it. It does not have brakes designed to stop the bus and the additional weight of a toad.
I almost had a serious accident a few weeks ago and I believe the brakes on my toad was the only thing that saved me from a catostrophic accident due to a ten wheel dump truck with no brake lights and no turn signals stopping in the middle of a lane on the Florida turnpike.
I suggest every body read the current issue of Bus Conversions Magazine and FMCA magazine before making the decision to save a few bucks and endanger your family because of the lack of brakes on your toad.
Richard |
Tom Connolly (148.78.247.10)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 30, 2002 - 1:25 am: | |
Richard, I would agree that DMV honors registration and licensing while visiting from another State, but I do not see them overlooking any Tow vehicle brake requirements that they may have over another's lack of requirements. They may not tag you on it but they could if provoked! I see it being the same as occupant restraint laws.
I think anyone that has toad any considerable amount has experienced Murphy's Law, and had all the things go wrong that could at the same time, and That is when you will wish that the brakes you didn't think you needed were there and working!
Buy a Braking system!
Tom C |
Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy) (66.190.119.82)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 30, 2002 - 7:10 am: | |
Tom, you are right on. Registration and safety are two seperate subjects. Although states have different registration requirements, and each state honors each other states registration. However, if you are stopped for a safety inspection, you are subject to the safety requirements of that state, regardless of where the vehicle is registered.
After my close call, with brakes in excellent condition and a braking system on my toad, I am a firm believer that to be penny wise and dollar foolish where safety is concerned is very foolish indeed.
Richard |
Fred (216.128.130.130)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 30, 2002 - 10:33 am: | |
Most States have a law that any trailer be pulled on the road over a given weight must have it own brake system. Fla. law is 1000 pounds. And a car being tow is the same as a trailer being towed. You won't get ticketed unless you have a wreck. Fred |
Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy) (66.190.119.82)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 30, 2002 - 12:29 pm: | |
Fred, not necessarily so. For example, a couple of years ago my son and I were on our way to the sand dunes in Glamis, CA along with several other Sand Nuts. He was towing a 21 foot enclosed trailer and I was towing my Toyota pickup. I did not have supplemental braking for the Toyota.
He had some problems with his truck and wanted to go to a garage before we got to the desert. Since all our sand toys were in the trailer, we switched toads with me pulling his trailer and going on to Glamis. He towed my Toyota to the garage.
A few miles down the road I was pulled over by a CHP officer. Apparently when passing me he noted there was no electrical cord from the bus to the trailer. This was a special CHP unit that patrols the highway in that area looking specifically for items such as this.
While he was giving me a ticket for no supplemental brakes, I asked him about towing my Toyota. He indicated that there was NO requirement to have supplemental brakes on it.
I believe this same situation exists in several states. It is my understanding that many States now have the supplemental brake requirement for towing automobiles and that several other States have legislation pending. There has been information in both BCM and FMCA recently regarding this.
Richard |
Henry R. Bergman, Jr. (Henryofcj) (63.224.197.10)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 30, 2002 - 3:02 pm: | |
Sounds like having brakes of some sort on the toad may be a biggie in the future. But...since even then they can not be safely backed up any decent distance........
....It may still be best (in my opinion; for whatever that is worth) just to get an appropriately sized trailer with brakes to haul.....
...Your toad around. However, a trailer is somewhat inconvenient. Like already said, how do you get out of the car? Saw one trailer with neat folding fenders that......
....Flopped out side ways to let the car door open. Worked real neat as the actual trailer tire is usually below the door frame. Also had a hinged ramp that allowed...
....The car simply drive on and off, even when the trailer was not hooked up to the coach. This would reduce the number of vehicles from three to two.....
....Also the trailer had neat big storage boxes in front of and behind the wheels and a big box on the tongue to fill with overflow stuff that won't....
...Fit into the coach since we all tend to gather up too much personal junk and stuff. Anyway, maybe a car trailer with brakes will be the required wave of the future. Thanks. |
Johnny (63.159.188.112)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 30, 2002 - 11:31 pm: | |
"Anyway, maybe a car trailer with brakes will be the required wave of the future."
I hope not. |
FAST FRED (63.215.225.115)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, August 31, 2002 - 5:41 am: | |
The Euro wimps have a very difficult time towing anything ,
Their solution is to remove the rear window and use a ramp that winches a car up into the rear room over the engine.
Not great for living , but very elegant engineering!
FAST FRED |
Don Peter (198.81.26.174)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, August 31, 2002 - 5:08 pm: | |
I have been towing small vehicles behind various motorhomes since 1973. Currently I tow a Nissan Pickup with about 650 pounds of motorcycle and 200 pounds of loading system in the bed behind my 4104. I have never noticed any real difference in braking whether the toad is there or not. I'm concerned about being stopped and ticketed. I'm also concerned that some of these toad brakes have been known to "fail safe" and cause the toads brakes to be partially applied while traveling normally.
I think I'm going to try to find a cheap, used toad brake to mount but not actually hook up in my pickup and just not worry anymore. -- Don |
johnwood (206.252.250.134)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, August 31, 2002 - 5:23 pm: | |
OK guys. I still don't have an answer as to the handling of a combo on ice with and without brakes. Any takers on this subject?
jw |
Johnny (63.159.197.93)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, August 31, 2002 - 5:50 pm: | |
My take is simple: If the roads are icy, pull over! I would! |
Tom Caffrey (Pvcces) (64.114.233.41)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, August 31, 2002 - 8:26 pm: | |
Johnwood, proportional braking is the only thing that will work, if you have to do it. I don't know what to suggest for brand and model.
Where you get fouled up is if the brakes tend to surge or the traction is mismatched. It will be awfully easy to get into that situation.
The toad will hydroplane when the coach will not, and in some snow conditions, the coach will get very good traction when the toad can't find any. In either of those cases, jackknifing can happen.
I don't think I've run across any ads that claim antilocking brakes that work on both vehicles at the same time, so the only other thing that might help is if the toad's antilock brakes could be kept working while towing.
FWIW
Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576 |
johnwood (206.252.250.61)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 01, 2002 - 3:57 pm: | |
Thank you Tom. I too thought if the toads antilocks were functioning it would be a good thing. Only proportional braking system I'v found is US Gears.(any others?) They have a relatively sophisticated system that uses the power booster on the toad. Don't think the ABS is active tho.
I appreciate the "pull it over" thought process except that in this area of the world this could mean an unscheduled stop on the roadside for months! As I need to be places for work, I was fishing for input as to actual handling, as I don't have the luxury of extended stops. Note: I said extended. This is not to say if conditions are absolutely frightning that I won't stop. I have actuall been pushed off the road (sideways while stopped) by the wind in Eastern MT. |
FAST FRED (63.215.230.97)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 02, 2002 - 12:26 am: | |
"I have actuall been pushed off the road (sideways while stopped) by the wind in Eastern MT."
Dont feel bad , I have been in a 727 stopped short of the RW in Sag MI , with the parking break set , and been pivoted 90 deg just from a big puff of wind.
Ice doesn't have much traction for anything!
Even 135,000 lbs .
FAST FRED |
johnwood (206.252.250.24)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 02, 2002 - 9:32 am: | |
Related subject. Does siping rib tires help on ice? I would love hearing actual experience from someone. I have firestone 295/75R 22.5's Not a firestone fan, but they are almost new and came w/ coach. |
Loren (216.160.18.2)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 7:30 am: | |
No experience with large vehicles, but had the tires siped on my Buick Skylark and it made a huge difference in stopping on slick MN winter roads. |
Johnny (63.159.184.66)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 5:38 pm: | |
It might not help, but I don't see how it could HURT. |
Bill Gerrie (66.185.85.76)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 6:46 am: | |
I've used the braking system by M & G Engineering and have nothing but high praise for the operation of it. It may not be the cheapest system on the market but can you put a price on your safety or on your piece of mind that in the event of an accident you did your best at trying to prevent it. Check out the laws of phyisics. If you move a 4000 lb object at 30 mph the same weight at 60 mph requires 4 times the distance to stop. (If I remember correctly) Check out M & G at 1 800 817 7698 in the USA or 1 903 675 2812 in Canada. Their system works off the air system in the bus or they have one with its own compressor. They also have a break away system. I have no connection with them just a really satisfied user for over 12 years. My .02 cents worth. Bill |
johnwood (206.252.250.51)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 1:05 pm: | |
Thanks Bill; Does M&G have a website? |
Bill Gerrie (66.185.85.76)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 3:26 pm: | |
John
M & G Engineering is at www.m-gengineering.com
The owners name is Leon Meadows. Bill |
johnwood (206.252.250.21)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 4:58 pm: | |
Thanx! |