| Author |
Message |
degojo (198.81.26.174)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 6:28 pm: | |
My 4104 is extremely hard starting unless i give it a shot of starting fluid. I have the built in starting fluid system with a button on the dash. The engine runs good when started and doesn't smoke a lot on start up and no smoke at all when warm. Any suggestions |
Tom Caffrey (Pvcces) (64.114.233.208)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 9:55 pm: | |
If you have a good electrical system, using an engine heater for a hour before you start it might be a good solution. Then you could use either generator or inverter to preheat your engine. DD engines like that real well.
You might even get a small heat exchanger and use your hot water heater and a small circulator to preheat your engine. I've even seen a nichrome heater placed in the intake of an engine to preheat just the air. It takes a lot less power.
That symptom can come from any loss of compression, air in the fuel system, plugging filters and a bad fuel pump.
Under the heading of any loss of compression goes low compression liners and pistons. The hard starting ones are about 18:1 and the easy starting ones run more like 19.5:1 compression ratio.
If you have a two valve head, you're more likely to have the low compression liners and pistons. Top notch batteries and a good starter make the condition a lot easier to live with.
For what it's worth.
Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576 |
mel 4104 (208.181.100.3)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 07, 2002 - 9:58 am: | |
great answer tom,using a block heater that uses 110v. is a great way to preheat the engine before you try to start it i glug mine in for a hour even on a warm day and it is running by the time the first revelution is complete, as to starting fluid i think it should be a hanging ofence to make the stuff and a shotting one if you use it as there are more engines ruined in the bus world than any other cause. it is a good idea to never use it for any reason other than lazeness. mel 4104 |
kidbus (198.81.17.186)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 07, 2002 - 6:03 pm: | |
Mel- starting fluid of the proper type will not harm a diesel engine. Your information is probably based on the problems caused by using starting fluid in a glo plug engine without disconnecting the glo plugs first. This can cause detonation. Starting fluid can also cause a problem if used in a hot engine. |
Tony Richardson (216.80.150.104)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 07, 2002 - 6:47 pm: | |
What type of starting fluid is ok for a diesel,and
what type is not?
Thanks
Tony |
Tom Caffrey (Pvcces) (64.114.233.143)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 07, 2002 - 10:36 pm: | |
Tony, the small amount type. Also, when we have needed it, after a small whiff goes in, I don't crank the engine for maybe 10 seconds, so that the ether is fully evaporated.
This has been the easiest formula for least ether and quickest start.
There is another tactic that might reduce the need to use ether if you have good enough batteries. Crank your engine over until you see white smoke. Stop cranking for up to 30 seconds. Then try again, like the first time.
Some engines, if the conditions aren't too bad, will start most of the time this way, even if they would have required ether otherwise.
Some engines have problems with fuel bleeding down from the injectors while shut off. The result is that one or more cylinders don't get the full snort of fuel when they should.
Check valves in the fuel lines are the usual cure for that sort of thing after fixing any leaks that can be run down.
Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576 |
FAST FRED (65.58.184.220)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 5:05 am: | |
For under 40F a shot of starting fluid is OK .
Over 40 WD40 is just kerosene and works as well, but should be sprayed in while the engine is cranking so it will get sucked in.
The Ether is easier as it evaporates so you can do a spray in the starting cup and run foward to get it started.
FAST FRED |
Buswarrior (Buswarrior) (64.229.215.149)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 11:19 pm: | |
Hello all.
Starting fluid is usually ether.
Lots of buses/trucks up here in the colder climates had the built in system that degojo mentions in the first post, some with a driver activated switch, some automatic with a temperature sensor on the block. A measured charge was directed down a really fine plastic tubing into the cup on the air intake from a cylinder mounted somewhere in the engine compartment. Cylinder was the size of the propane bottles that you use with a hand held torch, only filled with ether. Rumour has it that the new four stroke motors can also be equipped with these systems.
Some of us live where it is cold, and the motor needs a little sniff to go, so go easy with the executions! How are we supposed to get a DD going when it's 20 below?
The big damage gets done when you put enough ether in to make a blue flame out the exhaust pipe when it starts. Often was seen in large municipal transit fleets where no one gave a damn about wrecking stuff. Hopefully the dope breathes some in and falls asleep in a puddle....
You only need a short second or two squirt in the cup on the air intake for each attempt.
I'll support Tom's tactic of cranking for several seconds, then waiting for a few moments and cranking again. Good for the starter too.
Here follows is the fairly non-technical two and half cents worth for those that need a bit of an explanation:
Diesel has to ignite at a higher temperature than gasoline. That's why the diesels don't like to start when the temperature outside starts going down. It's harder for the engine to reach ignition conditions. (IIRC flashpoint for diesel is a little over 100 degrees F and gasoline is way down at minus 40 degrees F?)
In starting the engine, you are trying to get the temperature in the cylinder hot enough to ignite the injected fuel. The act of compressing the air in the cylinder with the piston warms it up quite a bit. Poor compression means less heat, equals harder starting in cooler weather. So, a worn engine doesn't like the cold. Good batteries and starter means faster spinning of the motor, and more heat in the cylinders. So, cranking and pausing gives the heat a chance to spread a bit.
Of course, a block heater puts some heat into the block, which helps to warm up the air as it goes into the cylinder, making it easier to reach the critical temperature for the cylinder to fire.
Ether is much more flammable than the diesel and will ignite at lower temperatures. Once you get a cylinder to fire on ether, the heat from the first fire, as well as the increased engine speed will enable the next cycle to fire on the diesel and away you go, perhaps running a little rough until the rest of the cylinders get with it.
A glow plug warms the incoming air to help it reach the critical temperature once it reaches the cylinder. Ether and glow plugs don't get along, if the ether is passing the hot glow plug element. The ether is prone to igniting inside the intake instead of in the cylinder. They are not kidding when they tell you to not use starting aids on those ones!
happy coaching!
buswarrior |
Henry R. Bergman, Jr. (Henryofcj) (63.224.197.10)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 30, 2002 - 8:22 pm: | |
Ditto on cranking the mill with the stop lever pulled out. We used this techinque on worn out fire engine Detroits that we still had in service.
Seemed some of the injectors may have weeped or stuff and spinning the mill with the fuel shut off helped build up heat in the cylinders. |