| Author | Message | ||
| john degemis (Degemis)
Registered Member Username: Degemis Post Number: 42 Registered: 3-2008 Posted From: 71.92.155.232  Rating: N/A |
Looking at a split duckless heatpump system. Pricy but looks like it would be something to think about. A unit that would go in the bay. And three or four wall mount blowers. Heat and air with just a flexable line.It is like having 3 or 4 airconditioners with only one compresor. less power nothing on roof. http://www.goductless.com/Ductless_Heat_Pump_air_conditioner_LG_mini_split_p/11069.htm | ||
| Kevin Black (Kblackav8or)
Registered Member Username: Kblackav8or Post Number: 106 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 24.152.162.210 Rating: N/A |
I have been around those overseas. They work alright. More money then 3 rooftops. Someday that may be the way to go though. | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 709 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 64.55.111.6 Rating: N/A |
Is this a question, or an infomercial? A duct has air flowing thru it, a duck swims in the water. "Just a flexable line", no, actually two flexible freon lines, a condensate drain line, and a power interconnection cord, (two hots, a communication link, and a ground) between each inside unit and the condensing unit. 36,000 BTU @ 13 SEER efficiency (their published numbers) means almost 12 Amps of 240 VAC running. A 40 Amp max fuse size scares me, as it is over 300% of running load, which means it won't blow when something starts to go wrong. According to the NEC, a 20 Amp fuse would be the proper size, AND it would blow before letting the smoke out! Last thought, these ARE residential (stationary) type units, not designed for vehicle applications. I know, several people have installed different versions of these, and reported success, I just wonder for how long? Lastly, the outdoor unit MUST have outdoor air FREELY available to it on two sides, you can't "put it in a bay and slam the door." Have you paid close attention to the dimensions of the outdoor unit? Sorry to rain on your campfire, but it'll dry out. G | ||
| john degemis (Degemis)
Registered Member Username: Degemis Post Number: 43 Registered: 3-2008 Posted From: 71.92.155.232 Rating: N/A |
Hay thats the kind of thoughts I want to hear. I have a area were the OTR air was that is large and has a lot of ventalation from below and the door is mostly a big vent. I like the idea of keeping things below and the RV basement models I have seen seem to need 2 units to handle the load. When I saw this I thought that sounds good. So i decided to ask before making a mistake. | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 711 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 64.55.111.6 Rating: N/A |
John, Asking before making a mistake is definitely the way to go! If you notice, there's no limit on questions here, for a reason. There aren't very many people here who refuse to answer either! Regards, George | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1322 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.110.9  Rating: N/A |
What if you put the compressor/ condenser on the roof...that way it would get plenty of air.Come on George, look outside/beyond the box. | ||
| Jack Conrad (Jackconrad)
Registered Member Username: Jackconrad Post Number: 948 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 71.54.29.215 Rating: N/A |
It requires 240 volt power. Do you plan to always have 50 amp power available or run your generator (wired for 240 output)? Many campgrounds are still 30 amp max and most will not allow you to run your generator when in a campsite with 30 amp available. depends on how you plan to use your coach. Jack (Message edited by JackConrad on February 05, 2009) | ||
| Troy Burcham (Badlybentmc7)
Registered Member Username: Badlybentmc7 Post Number: 1 Registered: 2-2009 Posted From: 69.19.14.40 Rating: N/A |
I,m a new member here,dont mean to start off on the wrong foot,but here is my 2cents worth,I drove a couple of years for Entertainers in the bluegrass world,A lot of the nicer coaches had this type of system,they use home units with copper lines,Copper and vibration on road aplicatio0ns do not work well together,In short they stayed broke from cracking lines and compressor failure.Mayby they have changed in the last 5 years. Thats my 2cents good luck.TROY. | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 712 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 64.55.111.6 Rating: N/A |
John Roan, Aside from the fact that the original poster says: "Nothing on the roof," AND the fact (published on the LG Website) that the outdoor unit is 45 X 41 X 17 Deep, AND the fact that in his response, he says "I like the idea of keeping things below," putting the whole thing on the roof sounds like a heck of an idea!!! (The bus would only be a LITTLE over 13' 6'' high?) The compressor must sit with its bottom down, for proper lubrication, and it would break away from the floor (which is now the wall if you laid it flat,) not to mention the unit STILL needs to take air in one side, and blow it out the other, so it can't be mounted flat on its back on the roof and work...? So, you suggest we raise it about five inches off the roof, which would mean only adding 22 inches to the bus height, IF the comp could be run sideways! Now, lets think outside the box, and consider some ideas that WILL work! 1. Why does the compressor have to be in the box with the condenser coils. (It doesn't) 2. Why do we have to put basement unit(s) in bay or former A/C space? (We don't) 3. Why do we have to put evaporators (the technical term for the inside coil and fan unit) inside and listen to the noise, run freon lines, and put up with the lost space? (See the answer to 1 & 2 above) 4. Why don't we central air the whole dumb ass bus, with nothing taking up any additional space underneath, or on the roof, and have the whole thing warm, or cool, and quiet? (I dunno) Actually, there are several answers, and failing to "think outside the box" is one. Another, is as Jack says right above, (if I get this in quick) so now you know I've read his post. My first answer did say "about 12 Amps of 240 VAC," and you can't get that out of a 30 amp park service. Another is failing to ask questions early on, when the conversion is in the planning stage, or at least when you start cutting. Also, you have to give a little thought to placement of furniture. Another is some slightly unique electrical design, no big deal for some, a BIG deal for others. Lastly, cost. It just can't be done for as cheaply as two roof airs with heat strips. Having said all that, what does it take? Nick and Christy, are you way ahead of me? Sitting out there laughing because you know what I am going to say? Well, Sean handmade electric driver's air for his bus. Another poster put a 5 ton scroll (240 VAC electric) compressor in place of his engine driven compressor, and reports success. By past posts, you know I am into hydronic heating, so there's another clue. Allright, the cat's out of the box, (or was it the bag?) how do we do it easily, and satisfactorily? Another refrigeration contractor in Sacto has done it twice, with success. Gotta go to work tomorrow, and will be gone for two days, so will tease 'til then, lets see what we get! Regards, George | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 472 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.211.175.70 Rating: N/A |
Next "drive" I may have a different story to tell, but for the past 6-7 years, not a single problem, break, drip or leak with 1/2 & 3/4 inch copper front to back and everywhere in between. Everything's above floor level, secured to walls with one exception....3/4 inch copper across and embedded in the floor to "go over to the other side". All connections soldered except for HW line in and out; they are compression connections. Keeping fingers crossed...  FWIW RCB | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 713 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 64.55.111.6 Rating: N/A |
RC, I think he is talking about broken freon lines in residential type air conditioners installed in a bus. Its one of my concerns also. Properly installed copper pipe should last as long as the bus its in, if it doesn't get frozen. Regards, George | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 803 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.235.211.19  Rating: N/A |
Yo.. $3,462.99 for three sections that provide a whopping 9kbtu each (total 27kbtu). One rooftop air is around $500, and provides 13.5kbtu. For that $3,462.99, you could checkerboard your roof with Colemans, and use the bus as a frozen food bunker. It shouldn't be a question of what looks best, it should be a matter of what works best; the best bang for the buck. Cold air drops - inexpensive low amp, low profile roof airs can be had, and whirled peas within our grasp.  Salute' | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 682 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 69.19.14.23 Rating: N/A |
"It shouldn't be a question of what looks best, it should be a matter of what works best; the best bang for the buck." Some folks care weather their ride looks like it has Carbunkles on the roof , some don't. "MY WAY ",,, the goal on this board is to make the owner happy , not compromise with a cheap disgusting (to many)choice . After all a Picasso may be a million bucks , a calender with 12 Picasso's $6.00 , which to chose for ones home is an individual choice. Do it YOUR way, but help out a fellow with different tastes. FF | ||
| don goldsmith (Bottomacher)
Registered Member Username: Bottomacher Post Number: 234 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 72.15.86.59 Rating: N/A |
You can't be thinking of a chiller?! Can you? | ||
| Nick Badame Refrigeration Co. (Dnick85)
Registered Member Username: Dnick85 Post Number: 264 Registered: 2-2006 Posted From: 76.124.92.192  Rating: N/A |
Hi George, I will add my pics to help ya out..LOL Nick-  | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 804 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.162.93.113 Rating: N/A |
HAR: "After all a Picasso may be a million bucks , a calender with 12 Picasso's $6.00" which to chose for ones home is an individual choice. Good one, Fred! But if all a guy wants a Picasso for, is to cover a hole in the plaster, I think the calendar would be a better choice. The new roof airs can be had in "low profile" models, that are not all that noticeable from the ground. "Bad looks" are in the eye of the beholder. Basement models are all expensive, and aren't nearly as efficient as a roof air.... or as cost effective. But you're right, Fred. If the individual desires a specific item at any cost, he's got every right to have it, if he's got the loot. Ain't nuttin' wrong with that! | ||
| Jack Conrad (Jackconrad)
Registered Member Username: Jackconrad Post Number: 949 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 71.54.29.215 Rating: N/A |
"Different strokes for different folks" "Whatever floats your boat" "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" We all have different ideas of how our coach should look, how we will use it, and how much we will/can spend on it. There is no wrong way unless you do something you don't like only because someone else told you that is the only way to do it. Jack | ||
| Jim Wilke (Jim Bob) (Pd41044039)
Registered Member Username: Pd41044039 Post Number: 358 Registered: 2-2001 Posted From: 69.77.144.28 Rating: N/A |
The two biggest negatives I see with the single compressor/multi evaporator approach are first, as Jack Conrad said, most campgrounds don't offer 240 volt service, and if they do it's just a couple of not beautiful spots. Most of the entertainer coaches either "hover" with the genset running, or the concert venue has 240V available. The second negative is that unlike 4 or 5 roof top units, you are totally dependant for cooling on one set of everything. No redundancy. If one relay or whatever fails, you (and Momma) will be unhappy and your trip plan will immediately become looking for someone to fix it fast. "The difference between disaster and inconvenience is redundancy". | ||
| Tom Christman (Tchristman)
Registered Member Username: Tchristman Post Number: 59 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.218.33.156 Rating: N/A |
First off, this unit is 240v-which means either using your generator or staying only at 50amp campsites-which will preclude you from quaint small campgrounds. Also, the compressor unit is huge, has no ducting for the hot exhaust air to go-taking even more space. If it were me, I'd look at 2 Cruise Air units at 14,000btu apiece. The advantage to these units that are also split, is that the compressor units are small, can be mounted on the floor with the exhaust exiting through the floor (then you can stack at zero clearance around the compressor unit), you can use either one 14,000btu evaporator or two 7,000btu units-hence your multiple splits and the same btu. And they run on 120vac, so you can at least run one on a 20 amp circuit and maybe two on a 30 amp circuit. Granted they are expensive, but they are made for the mobile use, they've been around for many years and are American made. Good Luck, TomC | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1323 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.110.9 Rating: N/A |
Seeing that the brake lines in most of these coaches are copper, I don't see why they are going to fail in the ac system if proper tubing and installation is done. Some of the newest Prevosts use a short vertical extension along the sides of the roof, which hides the short rooftop ac's, satellite dishes, vents, exhaust fans, etc.Since Nick deals with this ac eq. a lot, he can probably help you come up with something that will do the job and be very satisfactory to you. The nice thing about rooftop units is that they WORK, can be easily replaced if and when they fail, are reasonably economical to purchase; since cold drops and heat rises, they are in the best location for this. The main downside is noise, and looks. It's too bad one of the rooftop ac mfgs doesn't design a lower setting unit, maybe 3 inches, possibly longer and wider to have the same condensing area. | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 399 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 71.55.228.218  Rating: N/A |
In the 4104 that I have here, there are 2 cruise-air units and one is in the pantry/closet in the rear bedroom with the condenser in the last bay. The front unit has the evaparator directly behind the drivers seat and the condensor is the first bay. With the gen running both units they are much quieter that anything I have had in the past including the new splits that mount on walls or whever. The new splits with the remote control systems have had a lot of problems with the board going out just when you need a good shot of a/c,and they are costly to repair. Working with these systems, I will always prefer the KISS a/c system. KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID. LOL My next unit will be a 3-ton split with heat strips verses heat pump. then when a board goes out you don't have to be a computer diagionoster to figure it out and don't have to but defroster board that some people charge out at double or triple the cost. I bought a t-stat for an a/c today that cost me 25.46 inc.tax. A srvice company said to this customer, it will only cost you 140.00 and we will install it free and no labor. WOW what a deal. One more thing, ZERO {0} clearance for the cruise air.. My vote!!! Gomer PS look at the picture and you will see where the condensers are on the 04, very front is one and next to battery door is the other as seen by the vent. | ||
| john degemis (Degemis)
Registered Member Username: Degemis Post Number: 44 Registered: 3-2008 Posted From: 71.92.155.232 Rating: N/A |
I am not concerned with the look of rooftop units. At 12 foot 2 inches I could use low profile units. But the noise is something to think about, keeping, as much weight at the bottom of the coach would be better for handling and stability. As someone posted once with these coaches “have the aerodynamics of a brick “ 3 or 4 units on the roof only ads to the drag. So I am looking for options. May just end up with roof units. | ||
| Matt Chrisitan (Mattc)
Registered Member Username: Mattc Post Number: 1 Registered: 2-2009 Posted From: 32.176.40.239 Rating: N/A |
Personally, I'd rather have a basement unit, and ducts. I have a bus and do not want it to look like an RV wanna-be. I'll spend the extra bucks, just not to have the white warts on the roof. =) IMHO | ||
| Luvrbus (Luvrbus)
Registered Member Username: Luvrbus Post Number: 634 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 74.33.56.77 Rating: N/A |
I have 3 Crusiair split units nothing in the bays nothing on the roof they have worked well for me over the years with no problems | ||
| Clint Hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 2 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.235.190 Rating: N/A |
Speaking of still wishing (and sweating) to afford a few Picasos, those rooftop 24 VDC (or 12VDC) air conditionors by DCAirco (only 9,000 btu) still haven't droped in price at $4000 they claim to be over twice the efficency of a good rooftop and being DC , no start up surge, also quite, though I do not know of the quality. A newer domestic brand that claims to be even more efficent and has A/C with heatpump ( at http://coolgreenenergystore.com/id25.htmlversion ) also in 12 or 24 VDC, with all kinds of fancy computer control for better climate condtioning, claimed to be very rugged & super slient at about the same price. I guess if either turns out worth the money I will eventualy find someone with first hand experience. I still cling to the idea to be mostly 24VDC, including my auxilary generator with a cogen system and maybe some day add some solar PVC system (might as well have a rembrant to go with the picasos). When around shore power just run the battery charge system for the whole power supply. "Cost effective" energy efficency, compact and redundency is the aim that time may solve. | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1324 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.110.9 Rating: N/A |
At about 40,000 lbs, a couple of hundred pounds of extra rooftop AC units isn't going to effect handling much, if any. The rooftop ac's are pretty aerodynamic anyway and you'll never see a loss in MPG's. They also are easy to place in sections or areas where you need them. Yes, they are somewhat noisy when on high, but that may be useful parked in a truckstop at night or next to another motorhome with theirs running. You get used to the noise anyway. Go to an rv where you can run a couple of different brands or check the mfg's for their db ratings inside. One upfront blowing over your head down across the windshield going down the road is really nice on a hot day. BTW those rooftop models cool down a coach pretty quick on a hot day. Both systems have their benefits. | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 714 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 64.55.111.6 Rating: |
Don, Heck of a thought. Some valves and you could cool with the heating coil! The only downside to that is you would have to mount the chiller someplace... Nick, As usual, thanks for the support! Clint, $4000.00 for a 9000 BTU rooftop?! AND, like it or not, there is still a startup surge on DC, just the same as AC. There just isn't a free lunch. Several months ago, someone new here started a post with "What everyone's missing..." His proposal was to use a 12V battery charger to power "cheap" (MSW) inverters to overcome "...poor campground power quality..." Several people (including me) questioned the workability, the cost and the benefits of such a system, especially after the following points were made. 1. MSW inverters put out poor power quality by definition. 2. 4 seperate non-stackable inverters, running at 4 different phases, how do you properly ground them, not to mention now 4 circuit breaker panels? 3. Two 13,500 BTU roof airs, running on two MSW inverters, (about 85% efficiency) and only 10 amps of 120 VAC in the coach to run everything else, would require a FOUR HUNDRED AMP 12VDC charger! The last response we got from this poster was: "Think of the protection from a lightning strike nearby. All that would be damaged would be the charger." Another thing to remember, is that AC induction motors don't have a commutator and brushes to wear out, which is why hermetic compressors are all AC. I'm not familiar with the brand of DC Rooftop that you mention, but I'll make a LARGE bet that it has it's own inverter built in, and the compressor is actually 120 VAC. The moral of this story is that you would need a 200 amp 24 volt charger to make DC out of campgrond AC to run your all DC system... Sorry to pick on a newbie, but there are reasons that most of us have done what we have done! By the way, your link doesn't work. On to bigger and better things, what's the answer to bus air, (mine anyhow?) Use the existing bus air handling section, (the blower, hot water coil, and the evaporator {A/C} coil) and the main trunk, front to back. If the OTR A/C stays, add a second evaporator coil in series with the first, add a second condenser coil in series with the first, stash a 3 Ton scroll compressor somewhere, they're only 7 inches in diameter, and 1 1/2 feet high. No ventilation is required, they're cooled by their own freon. There is room in my condenser bay, along with the condenser and blower. Plumb it, with an accumulator, and a TXV, add a reversing valve and defrost controls if you want electric heat as well, then an electronic thermostat, transformer, relays, contactor, capacitor(s), and the only choice left is whether to run AC or DC fans. My recommendation is to disconnect the supply ducting from the walls and foam them, due to the large loss thru the thin insulation. Install floor registers in the rooms instead. A bus without OTR air is easier, as you can usually plumb into the existing coils... Engine/Mitre box driven condenser fans for OTR air get changed to electric drive, so they work when stopped. Needless to say, with big inverters, you still have OTR air. * A Webasto, Proheat, etc. and you have your central heat, and your domestic water heat, and block heat, with some thought and plumbing... True wholesale cost of a quality 3 ton scroll compressor is less than an average rooftop, the cost of the rest of the parts will equal the other rooftop, and the labor shouldn't exceed the cost of purchasing and installing two furnaces, and installing two rooftops. Advantages: Quick to heat or cool, quiet, tough, its heavy duty commercial stuff, nothing in the bays. Add baseboard heaters, or toe kick units, and you can boondock for weeks with only a little pump draw. Disadvantages: Not as cheap as roof airs with heat strips, needs 240 VAC, as in 50 Amp park box. What's the solution for the second part? I've said one 3 Ton compressor, because I'm sure it will work in most all conversions with insulation added and average number of windows removed, in HOT climates, and its more cost effective. How about TWO 1 1/2 Ton 120 VAC compressors, each running half of the evaporator? Same electric draw as two roof airs, and it runs on 120 VAC.* Only one compressor will run in a 30 amp park, no different than only one rooftop, except that the partially cooled air will be delivered to the whole bus, unless you close registers. As I mentioned before, the refrigeration contractor I trade overflow work and days off calls with, did two buses this way, with success, before I met him. FWIW, George | ||
| Clint Hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 4 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.235.190 Rating: |
Try this link for the claims of a ultra freeier A/C lunch http://www.allaroundcontractingllc.com/ or read what I copied here - Effiency Does Matter! Compare the Kool Rig systems efficiency to other units to see just how little of power our hybrid unit really uses. The Kool Rig unit runs between 210 watts to 546 watts for 5,300 - 12,300 BTU's of cooling and up-to 754 watts for 4,400 to 18,000 BTU's of heating. Other units use as much as 2700 watts. Making our unit 3x more efficient than its competitor. Increasing battery run time and battery life expectancy with our slow start compressor technology. With slow start DC compressor technology there is never an initial start up amp draw surge. Our Variable speed compressor offers up-to 3x more cooling capacity. The older DCairco 9000 from Europe that I first mentioned to the board back about 3 years ago as a "newby" to the board is not as ultra efficent and doe not do the heat pump trick; but it still runs effiecency well over 23 seer they claim . specshttp://www.dcairco.com/DC9000.html That is less than half the power to generate (which is a expensive lunch) from a very good convential $500 rooftop run on 117VAC. My ongoing queire is more towards relevant actual first hand knowledge with these particular units to, further base my own infromed critic on there performance and quality, to better validate the claims behind the freeier, more effcient lunch that we have been eating and paying for to date. Yes there is some loss when inverting, but that mode is to be the exception and the design concept/exercise seeks to mitigate by running the enitre coach mainly on a 24VDC system and consumption from various supplies This application is geared more toward not normaly being accessable to the plug-in-grid or confined to expensive camp grounds stalls, amoung many parmaters that I had not menitoned such as versitility for the buck. ...off board coments welcom at realcanadiandemocracynet@gmail.com | ||
| Clint Hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 5 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.235.190 Rating: |
Just to shed light on the performance claims behind these wounders of efficent design, they are powered by 24 VDC (or 12 if you perfer)and are scroll compressors that are hermatically seal; not common 117 VAC compressors with a on board invertor to decrease power consuption effecieny! A new still rare technology that you pay lots extra for given they are not yet widely manufactured to be bought off many shelves and therefore likely a big cost ($4000 each against the power to be saved over it's life cycle and less generator cost)contributor along with custom production of the control systems & electronics. Remeber how expensive and power hungry those first hand held (both hands) calculators were in in 1970 ? The 24VDC scroll compressors are starting to become more common in many sizes now, so eventual the intial purchase price is likely to adjust downward with competion of mass production. | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1326 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.110.9 Rating: |
How many hours a year are you actually going to use these? How much in savings is that going to be? How about repairs/replacement on the road away from home? How much are those unique parts going to cost? What if the company goes out of business; where are you going to get parts? Common rooftop units may not be the newest, highest tech, but they work, can get parts/ replacement just about anywhere. I am assuming from your sig that your coach is already converted. If so, running lines and ducts could present problems. If it's still a shell, then it would probably be the way to go. | ||
| Clint Hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 7 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.235.190 Rating: |
Those are some of the questions one must consider on the path to making a informed design descision of cost effectiveness, especialy when rather inovative in both application and construction. Which is the whole point of shareing information when you don't have endless developement resources to dedicate towards resolving a problem with improved effiecency as part of the goal. | ||
| Clint Hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 8 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.235.190 Rating: N/A |
...most likely I will not reach for the new picasos on the new untested shelf and use that same big bucks to incorperate a effecient 24vdc scroll compressor with heat pump valving into the existing condesor and evaporators components, modificaitions might incluce cogne heat recovery from the 24vdc aux generator, the underside of a PVC (electic)/solar (heat) array and use the potable water supply as a heat battery. The addition of a reversable high/low vent system would be warrented for comfort and efficency concerns. Just trying to find my own way, and make it available for others as that is what we do here if I remember anything. | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 806 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.162.94.43 Rating: |
Ohhh.... uhh Re: "and use the potable water supply as a heat battery. " But won't the added heat encourage bacterial growth in the potable water supply? Eeeeeew. | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Registered Member Username: Rjlong Post Number: 1508 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 67.181.166.160  Rating: N/A |
Clint - Sorry to hijack your thread for a moment, but by your profile page it says you're in the Okanagan area of BC? If so, I know of a good cabinet shop that might be interested in giving you a hand with the interior. Send me a PM for more info. Now back to the thread topic under discussion. . . | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 716 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 64.55.111.6 Rating: N/A |
John M, You never cease to amaze me! And here I thought green tea had health benefits... HAR HAR HAR, KUTGW! G | ||
| Clint Hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 11 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.235.190 Rating: N/A |
I didn't recommend you drink the water in your hotwater tank , even after it cools down, or your toilet water, but it is still good for washing and there are measures to sterilize, but you know that. Lets call it a fresh water tank for meaningful discussion purposes, boys. Ever consider how ones willingness to explore outwardly is interlinked with the courage to explore inwardly or theorectically. har har har, what's in your green tea ???? Someyear, perhaps I too will have me a MC 6, but only if I keep at it. It's so good to be back were we belong ! I'm Ok with that , but thank you kindly , RJ . I can see I will have to get one of those unbelievably efficient 24vdc HVAC makers to advertise on BNO, then wait for someone else that defer the investment required for a Rembrant to try one out and share there results with us all here. If the claims are accurate, there is a pay back potential for any application. IF ONLY someone had the spare bucks to spend up front. | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 717 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 64.55.111.6 Rating: N/A |
Clint, Thanks for the links that work, now it all becomes clear! (I started this before you posted your last, so please pardon the fact that it doesn't reference your last post! The only thing in the edit is in these parentheses.) Please re-read my post dated 2/09/09, 4:09pm, specifically the part where I said to you "...AC motors don't have commutators and brushes to wear out, which is why all hermetic compressors are AC..., and I'll make a LARGE bet that the compressor is 120VAC, and the unit has an inverter..." First off, the starting surge in an AC compressor lasts less than one second, so it isn't really a big deal. Secondly, this unit does use an AC compressor, just as I said, BEFORE reading your link, and it does have an inverter in it also, how else do you think they get "slow start"? Slow start is accomplished with a variable frequency drive (which IS an inverter) connected to a 3 phase AC compressor. The "All Around Contracting" web page has five spelling mistakes in it. Altenator is missing its R, proove only has one O, "out their" should be out there, several times. Quit? (I think they mean quiet.) Effiency?, I think they meant Efficiency. A complete sentence has to have a noun and a verb. Putting a period at the end of some words doesn't make it a complete sentence... What I am saying by this, is that if they can't spell, and can't compose, are we supposed to believe that everything technical that they state is 100% correct? Forgive me if I don't! Now, lets look at the DC Airco site for a minute. One of their claims: "50 horsepower savings over an engine driven system." IN A TRUCK CAB? Their 17-24 SEER claim? Immediately followed by their BTU and power consumption numbers, 9000 BTU produced by 600 Watts consumed is 15 EER, at least when I went to grade school! EER is Energy Efficiency Ratio, SEER is just putting an S for Seasonal in front of it. SEER is an artificially high number, as it uses low outdoor and indoor temperatures for its measurements, as in the Spring and Fall, averaged in with the Summer temps. Next, we have to look at the "variable speed refrigeration system." This just might be the variable speed inverter I was talking about in my first post? Never mind, that's not the point, and I'm NOT beating up on YOU, this manufacturer is NOT STATING THE WHOLE TRUTH! Higher efficiency is achieved by using more coils, a thermostatic expansion valve instead of a fixed metering orifice, and some fancy current controls on the compressor and fans. As this is a variable speed refrigeration system, its efficiency is indeed higher at lower outputs. What does this mean? BY THEIR NUMBERS, if we believe them, their unit has an efficiency rating of 24 SEER, AT ITS LOWEST SPEED, and 17 SEER, AT ITS HIGHEST SPEED. Next and last thing I am going to say about this ridiculous advertisment, is their comment about "...all other air conitioners only provide a temperature drop of 20 degrees. This means that if your cab is 120 degrees, your air conditioner will only put out air at 100 degrees." This is a correct statement, but it is an insult to anyone with a brain, who has ever lived in a properly air conditioned anything, anywhere in the world! (You have snowbirded to Phoenix in the summer when its 114F outside, and 72F inside all of the air conditioned buildings, right?) Well the 120F truck A/C does indeed take in air at 120, and supply it at 100, until all of the 120 air has been thru the unit once, (forgive the simplification) then the air is returned at 100, and supplied at 80, until again all of the 100 air has been through the evaporator. Now the air is being returned at 80, and supplied at 60, and so on. The engineering term for tempature drop is delta t, also called "split" by us refrigeration technicians. Then their claim of a 50 degree delta t? You will admit to having seen condensation running out from under air conditioned automobiles, I hope. Well now its 80F in the truck cab and the supply air is 30F, which means the evaporator coil has to be several degrees below that to to cool the air down to 30F while passing thru it, right? What will happen if their number is right? Obviously the condensation will freeze on the face of the evaporator, and stop the air flow thru it. Will it cool a truck sleeper without the engine idling? Heck yes. Is it a halfway practical bus air conditioner? No. Are their ads misspelled AND misleading? Yes. Our they're ads out their on there own? (That'll get by spell check.) Regards, George (Message edited by George Mc6 on February 09, 2009) | ||
| Clint Hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 12 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.235.190 Rating: N/A |
Great grammar critic George, thanks for your theoretical evaluation of there amature ads made by these small start ups companies, too. Although the dutch DCAirco has survived & grown over the last few years despite there web administrators poor mastery of English. IF ONLY they had majored in english rather than inovation, then they would be more crediable to some's belief proscesses. har har har) So if anyone does have any real experience with these newer design Variable Speed Low DC Hermetic Refrigerant Scroll Compressors on the market, please do tell. | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 718 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 64.55.111.6 Rating: |
Clint, I'm sorry you took it that way, I did say right in the middle of my post "I'm not beating up on you, THIS MANUFACTURER IS NOT STATING THE WHOLE TRUTH!" I'm still with that, don't get threatened OR personal, just tell all of us how 9000 BTU divided by 600 Watts can be between 17 and 24 EER. That's the first thing I ask, then post a wiring diagram of one of these, for all of us to see. That will prove whether I know what I am talking about or not. Its easy. So, just because their grammar and spelling is way off, we are to believe their data is perfect? My evaluation wasn't "theoretical," Ohm's law was proven well over 200 years ago. Dr. Carrier invented the refrigeration cycle over a hundred years ago. All of the terms and measurements have been standard since then. The Website says 17-24 SEER, and publishes 9000 BTU output at 600 Watts of electrical use on the same page, look at the top of the middle column. EER is BTU/Watt, period. 9000/600=15. Please rationalize this without getting personal. An answer of "I don't know" will be courteously accepted! Apparently I owe you an apology for not stating my "credentials." I am a currently licensed HVAC and electrical contractor in the State of California. My license was issued 8/6/91, so I have some track record. I have installed about 15 of the new Inverter ductless mini splits, which is basically what the units you describe are. The fancy ones are indeed 17 SEER, but they use R410a instead of R134a. R410a has higher capacity and efficiency. Professional regards, George | ||
| Clint Hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 13 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.235.190 Rating: N/A |
Well George, If it would help clear your mind and help you think HVAC , you could offer your MC6 up as apology, to kind of help you feel better, if this would help. If not perhaps studying up on a few of the compressors I am referring too , would prove a welcome distraction. Masterflux and Danfrost and a few Chinese manufacturers are making Variable Speed DC scroll compressors in 134a and 410, often with available electronic voltage controls to give you the efficient speed selection according to demand . Custom build or off-the-shelf, it's your way that counts mostly to you ! | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 719 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 64.55.111.6 Rating: |
Clint, In my last post to you, I asked you to post a link or a model number of a compressor you were referring to, unfortunately, you didn't. You do however mention mention "Masterflux and Danfrost and a few Chinese manufacturers..." Well, a Google Search of "a few Chinese Manufacturers," obviously won't work, and a Google Search of "Danfrost" (your spelling) doesn't turn up anything either. Could you have meant DANFOSS? If so, they do indeed make a Model BD250GH compressor, which is listed as 12/24 VDC. HOWEVER, IT REQUIRES AN ELECTRONIC CONTROL UNIT, Part Number 101N0280, to operate. Then, when you look at the rest of the technical data, one part of it says: "Resistance, ALL 3 WINDINGS 1.8 OHMS" What this means, is that the required "Electronic Control Unit" is a variable speed inverter, just the same as the Ductless Mini Splits I mentioned to you earlier. "All Three Windings" means the compressor itself is 3 PHASE AC, powered by an inverter, just as I mentioned before. Masterflux, the other brand you mentioned, comes right out and says in their front page "The variable speed controller..." and if you look on page 9 of their Sierra Compressor technical page, Pin A PHASE A Pin B PHASE B Pin C PHASE C, which is the National Electric Code description of 3 phase AC wiring. My statement of yesterday at 4:09pm still stands, "I'm not familiar with the brand you mention, but I'm sure it has an inverter and an AC compressor." Well, now it's proven by the Danfoss website I'm assuming you were referring to, and the Masterflux website I'm sure you were referring to, and you owe me the apology! (I did say I would make a LARGE bet didn't I) George (Message edited by George Mc6 on February 09, 2009) | ||
| Clint Hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 16 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.235.190 Rating: N/A |
O George , though you were just offering the MC 6 out of a compulsive need to apologize for something or somehow. While I am big on MC 6es and and DC scroll compressors I can't make the same claim about those apologies you seem to want to covet, and for that indifference I could apologize. So does this mean I get the MC 6, George? Just after you examine your first true variable speed DC scroll compressor and insert knowing were disbelief once stood? You just have to keep looking, no need to bet anything big, my learned freind. Isn't it the only way you will change away from belief ? Yes I hear say that Danfoss is also about to do a production line of what I inquired about, apparently ! While I have worked on a lot of mobile HVAC since the 80's, I do not have a in with any compressor manufacture, yet! | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 809 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 98.70.64.52 Rating: |
Clint - I found out long, long ago.... that if you're really, really intelligent, and want to know all about something without having to get a diploma's worth of education to know it.... Just come here and intentionally say something really, really dumb-ass about it, and let the guys with the diplomas and years of hard-earned knowledge, explain it in great detail. And the best part, is that it's FREE! (I get a rush of happiness, just thinking about all the money I saved, by not spending it on a college education for every one of these topics!) "The dumb-asses will inherit the earth" Oh yeah..... We will. | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 479 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.209.85.115 Rating: N/A |
Uhhhh...was that English, or???? U guys keep it under control, will ya? JTNG is correct...It's FREE. (Thank you Ian, George, JTNG, etal) What a great board!!! RCB | ||
| Clint Hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 17 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.235.190 Rating: N/A |
I only spent enough on college to learn how dumb I IS. Will have to get a faster computer though, taken tooooooooooolonggggg to scroll down the bottom of the page for nothing ! | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 811 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 98.70.64.52 Rating: N/A |
Cliff ? No need to take anything as an insult! We're all here to help in any way we can. Many of us have "hands-on" experience, and some of us have degrees... but we -all- have data that can be of help, in one way or the other. I think that you'll not only save time, buy money... by reading carefully, of what all those have taken time to type. We all (on BNO) take time out during our busiest times, to provide input to those seeking help with their conversion. You can feel free to disregard any opinions you feel disqualified, but please keep in mind, that those opinions come from those that care enough to reply at all.. Keep posting your questions and comments; I think it's safe to say, that you're appearance here is welcomed! | ||
| Tom Christman (Tchristman)
Registered Member Username: Tchristman Post Number: 60 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.218.33.156 Rating: N/A |
Wording on an add is important. For big rigs there is a system advertised that uses the truck A/C to freeze blue ice that cools the cab at night with the truck engine off. They say it has 18,000btu of cooling storage (not per hour). If you divide that by 8 hours that is 2250btu per hour-which is not very much cooling (especially in a truck cab that doesn't have much insulation in the first place). There's no substitute for good old fashion mechanical brute force for cooling and keeping cool a large vehicle like a bus. Good Luck, TomC | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 722 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 64.55.111.6 Rating: N/A |
RC, The speeding dog pic is slick, thank you. Sorry to not have replied sooner, but I felt a compelling need to go on vacation. John, As usual, thanks again, sage advice. I think he got in a funk about the hot water, and can't get over it. Then again, maybe his email addy explains it even better? KUTGW, (BOTH of ya) George (Message edited by George Mc6 on February 10, 2009) | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 813 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.162.65.195 Rating: N/A |
Actually George, that website's theme sounds like it was derived from our own forefather's thoughts. I truly expect an Okanogan Lake Tea Party any day now! (oh-ohhh, don't get me started here) | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 724 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 64.55.111.6 Rating: N/A |
John, You sure got what I was getting at! I promise not to pick on him any more if you don't! Carry on, bro George (Message edited by George Mc6 on February 10, 2009) | ||
| Clint Hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 18 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.232.82 Rating: N/A |
first you have to pick on me before you can "promise not to pick on him anymore" ,uhmmmmmm did I miss something cause I still ain't feeling no insult or need to give or receive those apologies George keeps going on about (not that there is anything wrong with your way). My only compliant was the thread was getting too long to make the long scroll down worth the lack of relevant information. Cheers my fellow bus nuts, if you look for something that is not there you might find yourself saving time by inventing it instead, as any innovator should be reminded of from time to time. so if you don't find me in this thread again, it is because it has passed it worth-while-ness when weighed against the long scroll down. and for that I offer no apology. if it was important to you, I do have a stack of degrees , licences and certificates , mostly dealing with the transportation industry, all of which means very little to me beyond recognition that I meet the requirements of system compliance. Far to often such a system acts to inhibit true innovation and leads to a system of inefficient consumption such as is collapsing around us right now; largely due to the exclusion of the non-compliant for protectionalism & simplicity . Not that there is anything wrong with that either, if one doesn't consider sustainability as important. Well back to the shop with me ! | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1329 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.110.9 Rating: N/A |
Truthunter? if you put your curser just above the down page scroll, it will go down through the posts fast and won't cause you to wait long to get to the latest post. | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 814 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.162.65.195 Rating: N/A |
"so if you don't find me in this thread again, it is because it has passed it worth-while-ness when weighed against the long scroll down. " (Huh? Damn college jargon.) Reading through a forum's thread, is like eating salted peanuts; like it or not, you'll probably find bits of it in your day's worth of crap tomorrow. (Just an unscholared* observation) *token Bushism </un-worth-while-ness> | ||
| Clint Hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 20 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.232.82 Rating: N/A |
more like unscholared and unihibited creative expression MC John9, which always puts things "write" if I recall. was being "sarcastic" with the scroll comments JwR, but thank you kindly , all the same | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 815 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.162.65.195 Rating: N/A |
You'll love it here, Clint. You fit in, like a finger in a glove. Sarcasm, hoots, praise, and flippant innuendo, all make this the greatest place on Earth! It's kinda' like Barnum, without the Bailey. Welcome aboard! | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 484 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.210.42.20 Rating: N/A |
"all of which means very little ".....'bout says it all, I would guess. Cliff, ease up... you are among friends....if you want them. I have a couple of degrees too, but have found over a life time that they (possibly, perhaps, probably) mean absolutely nothing, except maybe a sore fanny and a bunch of years "on the tab". We're here to help each other, to enjoy each other and to respect the fact that every human being has opinions...whether one like's it( the opinions) or not....and many times, those opinions end up, in the final analysis, being our own.... Maybe...maybe not; but in the meantime, we're all God's children; therefore "siblings"...therefore, uhhhh related...like it or not>>>>  Give it your best!!... and God Bless YOU! RCB | ||
| Clint Hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 22 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.235.190 Rating: N/A |
thanks for the welcome fellows but I should clarify : my old handle was truthhunter@shaw.ca, and I haven't quit loving it on BNO since my first post about 4 years back. Had a long time without my own Internet and had to ration as a observer only while fulltiming on the road and was absent from typing my 2 cents worth. Had to change handles when I registered as I no longer was on the shaw server. You will find my ramblings and quires more than once in the archives. So perhaps , if I may, welcome back clint (cliff is my brother, as I have been reminding others for many years) Really I am eased up , the Vulcan part of me does tend to reveal when talking tech, but I promise to feign emotions in the future if it makes others feel at ease with my many ways of BS. hahahaha, there see, I am a man of my words. I do appreciate the gesture of conviviality as that is likely what attracts many a participant and is conductive to uninhibited problem resolution processes and creativity, inaccuracies considered. I feel that MC Goerge the sixth know this too, he is just anxious to learn more of the new technology so dear to one of his disciplines, in his own competitive way and there ain't nothing wrong with that in my books. Why else would he propose staking his MC 6 in a bet that he would loss? harharhar har. ( I would never take another mans bus or his wife; can't say I'd turn down his single daughter if she wanted me for serious) | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 816 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.162.65.195 Rating: N/A |
(Awww, jeeez..) Let's all hold hands. (gawd) | ||
| Clint Hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 24 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.235.190 Rating: N/A |
my scroll finger is getting sorer and sorer (thipppppppppppppizzzzzzzzzzzz) this is getting longer than the time that pretty girl wearing the guitar with the blue boots ..... 102 wowwwwwwwwwww. at least that thread was going some where, south if I recall. | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 817 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.162.65.195 Rating: N/A |
Yeah, way south! With a load of loot! Nice breasties tho... oops... I'm sorry. Too sexist! I believe they're called "floatation devices". As far as scrolling? I just hit the "end" key, and scroll up as needed. (I figured that out, never having gone to a special school for it) (By the way). Clint.... good to meet you (I'm sure George feels the same). Air conditioning a poorly insulated tin can, is difficult, at best. But I did find that in the summer heat of Florida's east coast, one 13.5 rooftop AC unit managed to keep me cool enough, to be able to tear out the infamous MCI toilet. I ran both rooftop AC units, and nearly put ice on the windows. So, if the question is: "are rooftop airs better than basement airs", and since I know nothing about the rather expensive basement air systems.... I would say that the rooftop AC units are the most cost effective. Are they noisy? Noise is subjective. If you stick a couple thousand into my pocket, I won't hear a thing. (get my drift?) Rooftop AC units are cheap to buy, are cheap to maintain, and can be replaced easily. They can be run from a genset, the power-pole, or an inverter while the engine's running. Basement AC units are costly to install, are the most quiet to run, but are the most costly to service and/or replace. They require power that many power-poles can't provide; that require a decent sized genset, and an inverter capturing power from the engine, will never suffice. So the choice is: Carbuncles - or a cool environment in the least costly manner. Cheers! | ||
| Clint Hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 25 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.235.190 Rating: N/A |
hey that works for me MCJ9 (the scroll trick works for me; not those power hungry 117vac carbuncles although the ones that use efficient variable speed/DC voltage scroll compressors might, if there were cheaper and had the heat pump valves, {just in case DCairco is reading} , also just for clarification in case others though I was capitulating as some form of a assertive apology) . I almost needed to go to school to use this new laptop, not sure what was so bad about my old computer from 1994, at least you could here it running or was that the electric meter whirring at megawatt speed in the basement ! | ||
| Clint Hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 26 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.235.190 Rating: N/A |
http://www.solcool.net/tech.htm for a 1.5 ton split system 50 amps at 24 VDC is the claim with up to 18,000 btu cool and 22,000btu heating but . kind of bulky and not as efficient as they come, no comment on the type of compressor as they are rather vague with the description | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 688 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 69.19.14.44 Rating: N/A |
"Basement AC units are costly to install, are the most quiet to run, but are the most costly to service and/or replace. They require power that many power-poles can't provide; that require a decent sized genset, and an inverter capturing power from the engine, will never suffice." The basement units we have are virtual identical in parts (compressor Etc , with bigger blower) and run on the same 15A 120v per unit, so operate from the same power as the carbunkles. And will from the same inverter. A skilled installer will place the basement units so they can be in easy to remove spot and with no roof leaks to worry about basements can simply be replaced or serviced at ground level. All a matter of system planning. BEFORE the conversion. FF | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 818 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.162.78.110 Rating: N/A |
What make and model are those, Fred? | ||
| Jack Conrad (Jackconrad)
Registered Member Username: Jackconrad Post Number: 961 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 71.54.29.215 Rating: N/A |
We have 1 24,000 or 24,500 BTU basement AC (I forget which) made by RVP (formerly Coleman) that we purchased from RonTheBusnut as a scratch & dent for $800. It is installed just inside the rear baggage door on the passenger side. The electric panel is accessible by opening the baggage door and looking right at the panel. If the unit needs to be removed for repair, probably about 1-1 1/2 hours with easy access. We lost about 1/3 of a baggage bay, but kept eliminated the roof air noise (this was important to us YMMY). The biggest downside for us (which has not happened yet-fingers crossed) is the lack of redundancy. It it fails we have no AC. Jack | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 485 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 70.210.252.73 Rating: N/A |
But, most probably two (2) compressors.....which means, in reality, redundancy..... unless your unit is completely different than mine... RCB | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1330 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.110.9 Rating: N/A |
Fred, roof leaks? Might be possible. I wonder how many with rooftop AC units have ever had problems with roof leaks. How about rooftop vent fans? Rooftops at least, don't eat up any valuable under coach space which Mom needs for everything but the kitchen sink; the sink should be above in the kitchen. And don't forget everything that Dad needs to carry along. Truthhunter....so was I | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 819 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.162.77.102 Rating: N/A |
With all fairness John, the AC gaskets can leak. They're only foam rubber strips, with adhesive on the AC side. The rubber compresses, and over time the screws should be re-tightened to re-compress the foam strips. The two roof ACs that I had in that MC9, both leaked during one of the hurricanes down here. I guess sitting in the sun must have changed something, because I could actually lift the AC unit(s) up and see daylight, without having to loosen the screws. It ceased to leak after re-tightening them, though. So, preventive maintenance works! I hated to make any holes in the roof, and searching through the archives should produce the loooong thread where the pro and cons were discussed heavily. I made my choice for roof airs for these reasons: 1. Least expensive for the amount of BTUs. 2. Easiest and fastest to install. 3. Easy to maintain, and easy to replace if needed. 4. Redundancy of having two units. 5. Ability to enjoy AC, even on minimum AC power available. I would have preferred a noiseless system, but after sitting in a "Beaver" 300k motorhome, and having to talk loud to be heard over the running basement AC, I decided that turning a roof AC to the middle fan setting, netted less noise than the basement one on high, and seemed to keep us as cool. There's no right or wrong, just choices. If I ever do it again (prolly will), I may or may not opt for the roof airs. I talked with a guy that used common window AC units mounted on the floor, and vented through the side of his rig. He built them in as tables, etc. He said he paid under 100 for each of the six, and he could run as many as needed, whenever he wanted. I bought a used Carrier 5kbtu window unit for the E350, and plan to use the inverter with the engine running. I'll have to calculate how many batteries I'll need to run it for a couple of hours w/out the engine running. (or maybe I won't have to calculate; I have a "feeling" someone will jump in and tell me) (I hope). I guess there's nothing we can't do, when we decide to do it. "Carbunkles or cash?" | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 726 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 64.55.111.6 Rating: N/A |
Clint, Several things to say, as it seems you are still willing to scroll down to the bottom, in conflict to your earlier post. One, all of the posts made here, stay here, for everyone to read, and form their own opinion. What am I saying? Everyone has read your posts, and my answers. Two, originally, you posted a link that didn't work, and after I notified you, DC Airco was posted. This is a unit made to cool truck sleepers, and requires the outside unit to be surface mounted on a vertical surface. It is too wide to be mounted on the side of a 96 inch bus, and I guess one could be mounted above the engine doors on the rear of a bus. It would take at least two, as they are only 9,000 BTU. As I mentioned previously, that website has many spelling errors, ON ITS FIRST PAGE, AND HAS BEEN POSTED LIKE THAT FOR ABOUT A YEAR! I mentioned that because I read all of their claims carefully, and their claims DO NOT MATCH THEIR PUBLISHED DATA, period. From the excuses you made about "... a poor small startup Nehterlands company..." I wonder if you have a financial interest in this company, or did you just not read their advertisement with understanding? Next comes your post of "...DANFROST and MASTERFLUX Companies..." As I have already posted, and all of us interested have read, DANFROST doesn't exist, it should have been DANFOSS. I asked you to post links, which you didn't, so I looked up what you said was a DC compressor. Unfortunately, neither the DANFOSS, nor the MASTERFLUX are DC compressors, BOTH ARE 3 PHASE AC, the data is published in BOTH websites! I published compressor and "ELECTRONIC CONTROL UNIT" (which is an inverter) part numbers, for the DANFOSS. My post of the day before yours says: "...I'm not familiar with the brand you mention, but all of these type are AC compressors with an inverter..." Now you link to SOLCOOL. Their ratings do say 50 amps at 24 VDC. (That's 1200 Watts, whether you like it or not.) Then, look right down the page YOU posted, at compressor amps. 8.1! Well, where did the other 41.9 go? I don't expect an honest answer of "I don't know, I just posted the link," but surprise me! What I think we'll get is another foot long political rant that doesn't deal with the subject at all. All of the electricians here know how to calculate total current in a 3 phase AC circuit, when given the current flow in one leg, so now, YOU tell the non-electricians the formula! Then use that formula, divide it into a published number, and you can figure out what voltage the compressor is. One of your prior posts asked for comments from people who have this system, and as yet there are none, and there might be a reason. The whole purpose of this board is to share information, and to evaluate it. It is obvious to everyone here that I have read all of your posts, and all of your links, completely, and with understanding. Nor have I made one personal or insulting comment to or about you. So lets evaluate some more information! I just called the Northern California dealer for SolCool, and got a quote on price, and availability. 1. The units will not be available for sale for at least another month. The fact that they have NO track record isn't speculation on my part. 2. Look at the SIZE of the "outdoor" unit. Then you have to buy and run freon, power, and drain lines between the indoor and outdoor units. 3. The price. (JohnMC9 mentions about $500 for a roof air, and I'll agree with that.) Well, at the quoted SolCool price for one, we can buy, are you ready for this???? {[(TEN)]} roof airs! Yup, its $4995.00 plus tax and freon lines etc. Then you have to buy the stuff to install it! SEER or EER, are the two measurements of efficiency, and the number is BTU/Watt. The higher the number, the more BTUs produced per Watt of electricity consumed. To use SolCool's numbers of 50 amps @ 24VDC, which is 1200 Watts, and divide it into 18,000BTU, gives us 15 EER. OK, what do we do now? Well, 1200 Watts, used continually for one hour is 1.2 Kilowatt hours, KWH, which is what the electric utility, or the campground charges. Really cheap rates will be about 6 cents, PG&E 3rd tier, about 32 cents. A 13,500 12 EER roof air, commonly available everywhere camping stuff is sold, will consume about 1.2 KWH also, but I am being FAIR, no apples to oranges comparisons, as I am aware that EVERYONE is reading this. SO, lets add 50% to the "...power hungry 117 VAC carbuncles...", to adjust for the difference in size and a little more so I don't have to think too hard. What do we get? Well the SolCool will run for between 7 and 39 cents an hour, and the rooftop will run for 12 to 64 cents an hour, if we charge ourselves for the same size output. THE BOTTOM LINE? A SolCool is ______ $4995.00 A roof air is _______ $600.00 The difference ____$4395.00 That's 17,300 hours you will have to run the SolCool to pay for itself, @.32/hr. If the cost per KWH is .16, it will take 34,600 continuous running hours to come even. Now, you park your bus at your house, plug in the cord, and turn on the rooftop. Same thing at a park. OTR with no bus air, you run the gen, or an inverter. What about ALL of the (DC) powered units mentioned? (Actually, its what's NOT mentioned in the price comparison.) How are we going to get 50 amps of 24VDC while parked? Well of course, buy a charger, even I can figure that one out. Remember, he wants an ALL DC BUS, he doesn't have an inverter. PUI is not a crime. | ||
| Clint Hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 28 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.235.190 Rating: N/A |
This FEEDOM HVAC uint is a high effecency- varable DC voltage scroll compressor & claims to "quitely" use 1/3 the power needed by those noisey old tech roof top carbunkles, which is a factor to consider when your main mode is to generate most of your electric power while "free" from being corded to a wee RV Stall . Calculating the cost of multi mode generated power with co-gen capabilities isn't as simple as when your doing the math for "full time" tied to a power pole, doing it your way. Here is a link to the high effecency "smart" FREEDOM HVAC unit pumping 410a refrigerent http://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&ik=269c212e82&view=att&th=11f59f5831b5a324&attid=0.1&dis p=attd&zw. Pricey at 4 grand just like the mid-effecentcy Socool and DCairco (DCairco still only does cooling) as is carbon fuel or solar cell power generation as the main aplicaition as it is a rareity to have cheap power pole to tie into when doing it my way. The FREEDOM HVAC does have a invertor option (acting like a battery charger)for economical times when pluging into 117 VAC rather than your exspensive remotely generated hydrocarbon power or your house battery system . Any have signifigent experience with any of these new tech variable volatge/speed DC scroll compressor systems or similar products? | ||
| Clint Hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 29 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.235.190 Rating: N/A |
The Millenium Solcool split systme claims to use 1000 watts to make 18,000 btu of cool and 1200 watts to heat 22,000 btu 12 or 24 vdc.http://www.solcool.net/tech.htm | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 820 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.162.79.81 Rating: N/A |
Clint - With all deep respect.... You're getting really far out of your league here. The figures you're supplying, just do not add up to what those vendors are attempting to convince you of. That said.... I -am- the forum's chief antagonizer. I'd like to believe I'm a Don Quixote in "John_MC9" garb; a very serious Devil's Avocado at heart.... If you're attempting to steal that from me, quit now, while you have any sanity at all. We can argue opinions and politics to no perceivable end, but there is no sense at all, to try to argue fact. The figures those manufacturers are stating, do not make any sense at all. They very simply, are not correct. I read at this forum for quite some time, before posting. I took from it, much knowledge and information that helped me make some decisions, that saved me immeasurable time and cash! Learn here; contribute your experiences here...... but arguing against clear factual data, will only result in frustration for yourself, and a lessened enjoyment of what can be had here! Seriously, man.... This forum has more to offer, than any other. Don't fight it; join it! Revel in it, and learn from it. It's FREE, fir crissakes. And contribute your personal experiences. Welcome. | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 728 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 64.55.111.6 Rating: N/A |
John, Firstly, Thank you. (Again) (Again) Secondly, being the "antagonist" isn't necessarily bad. We need the humor, and another point of view. You may antagonize, but you're HONEST about it! We ALL see that too! Thirdly, I don't need to post the fact that you publish a lot of research. Obviously, I've tried to explain it to him. And, I understand that steers still try, even those with only one horn? Lets see if you figure that one out? I'll quit now, so you can stir us up some more! Regards, G | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 496 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.209.43.235 Rating: N/A |
EEEEEhawwwww.....and farm boys are "in the know". Steerin' us right, as it were... Hang on, I think we're in for a ride!! EEEEEhaaaawwwww......... RCB | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 729 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 64.55.111.6 Rating: N/A |
RC, Have you figured it ALL out? Actually its no big nasty, just a saying when you're frustrated, kind of like bears in the woods and the Charmin commercial. Obviously there are two things it can't do, both begin with F, forgive me if I don't spell out the second F, (The lack of a horn first, THEN the definition of a steer.) It can still eat, still moo, and we all can figure out what happens a period of time after eating? "A one horned steer can't fight, and it can't ____, all it can do is Bellow and S___." Back to bus air conditioning, the Google link posted above doesn't work, and the SolCool link brings up the same unit he posted on Wednesday, which is the one I looked at carefully. It's still $4995.00, still needs other pieces to work, and still an AC compressor, with a DC powered inverter. "Anybody have any experience with these," well the answer is NO, because as I posted above, after READING the linked website, and calling the dealer, "they're not available from the factory for at least another month." Where did the other 41 amps go? I'm going to give him a few more days to try and find them, and if he can't, I'll explain where I think they went. Regards, George | ||
| Nick Badame Refrigeration Co. (Dnick85)
Registered Member Username: Dnick85 Post Number: 265 Registered: 2-2006 Posted From: 75.197.134.3 Rating: N/A |
Hi Clint, I just left the Solcool site. From what I can see, their numbers don't make sence at all. I then crunched George's numbers and came up with exactly as he did. Clint, who ya gonna believe, a company that wants your 5 grand, or the intellegents of George, John, Chuck, and myself FOR FREE... Just couldn't let this one go unheard from me... Good Luck Nick- | ||
| Nick Badame Refrigeration Co. (Dnick85)
Registered Member Username: Dnick85 Post Number: 266 Registered: 2-2006 Posted From: 75.197.134.3 Rating: N/A |
Hay George, Maybe Clint should buy the system, he then can report back to us all about what he learned the hard way.. Let us know Nick- | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 403 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 71.55.228.218 Rating: N/A |
wow another welcome to the WWofBN"s. I still think that without all the different attitudes and knowledge on this site, just what would this be called? Boorriinnggg LOL Hey ALL HAPPY VALENTINES DAY TO ALL MY FELLOW NUTS gomer | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 497 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.209.43.235 Rating: N/A |
Youse guys are the greatest....I laughed till I couldn't see all the "stuff" that was posted...( wish I knew how to make a huge face....Got that JTNG???). Man this is the best place on the net....,I think.... seems I spend a lot of time here, anyway. Information, Entertainment, Intrigue, Suspense, Mystery...and all (most) with decorum!!! ...and even Class. Wow!!!!! All the way across..... and up and down the Continent; better than a Cubs game!! Boy I look forward to each end of the day. Jay Leno has nuttin' on this forum....besides, he doesn't have "us".... Ian told me in 2001 it would be this way... EEEEEEhhhaAAAA! And as the Gomer says...Happy Valentine Day!! I Luv U all.....(God's love.. ) RCB | ||
| Clint Hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 30 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.235.190 Rating: N/A |
Not sure why that Freedom link doesn't work for you as it just worked for me again . It was email to me by one of the distributors as a attachment that opens in "office". If anyone would like me to forward the email just let me know at realcanadiandemocracynet@gmail.com, perhaps you will be able to post it here. It is not clearly written but has the most incredible performance claims and is not comprehensive of the entire design. The question I was asking all during the thread was simple : has anyone experience with any of these units. Never asked anything else in this thread. Never was looking to "believe" or not or requesting others do anything other than have a look if they wanted. It has long been my goal to suspend belief practices and hold onto a problem until it can be resolved through discovery & understanding of relevant facts. Just my way ! What you do should be your way. If I had purchase any of these HVAC units I would likely be able to tell you facts that I had come to understand and describe my methods of conclusion. Some of the rough calculations in this thread are certainly on par with the vague claims from the product site that were attempting to analyze. This is all that can be expected in the realm of insufficient data. To my ways, this does not preclude the value of what communication has been shared; including those that wish to include feelings, perhaps with the expectation of reciprocity ? Through emancipated diversity , creative problem resolution may come to flourish. | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 821 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.162.65.247 Rating: N/A |
RE: "Through emancipated diversity , creative problem resolution may come to flourish." Here? On BNO? (mmmmmmmph-bwaaaHAHAHAHA)(snort) Oh yeah. It's gonna' flourish right down the drain, it is. HAR de HAR HAR Uhh... Happy Valentines Day! (smooooch)  | ||
| Clint Hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 31 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.235.190 Rating: N/A |
exactly, it's in the mind of the creative, if nowhere else! | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 822 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.162.94.101 Rating: N/A |
Re: "it's in the mind of the creative" That's fine for Picasso..... But for a defined, formula-based, scientifically proven fact.... it's a little absurd... in that abstract kinda' way. (not that there's anything wrong with that)  | ||
| Clint Hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 33 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.235.190 Rating: N/A |
Dear mCNINEJohn , as I tried to explain to you 3 years back (when I was truthhunter@shaw.ca) about being a devils advocate; if you continued with such compassionate constructive abstract creativity you will in fact cause the devil to go bankrupt. Not that there is anything wrong with that! How else is a belief going to grow beyond mere parasitism. Keep up the good works my esteemed colleague & fellow facilitator, this is a path to the riches of understanding & increased facts being freely shared on this board along with the companionship of constructive critic; with a generous allowance for feelings and ego exorcisms & exercising . (IF ONLY you were a girl and ask me to be your valentine's, I would of course have to oblige , even if not in a leap year ) "Onward & upward" (wear is marc these days) the vague "specs" attached to the Solcool HVAC claims, when put into context of vague, do in fact suggest a significant increase in efficiency , all be it, not a cost effective increase at 4k per HVAC unit. I will not be purchasing one at this price as my bum is still hurting from that first calculator I purchased back in 1971, I am still to tight to afford the bill for others cutting edge developments and must stand in the line marked mass production. In the interim I will continue my quest to gather the actual hand on product experience of others that are not so tight bumed with the bucks. I feel I can now fabricate an apology (and waste a little more of the forum space discussing nothing of technical significance)for McsixGoerge, as I just can not seem to see consistency between your well meant "detailed calculations" and the somewhat less than meaningful "specs" that accompany the Solcool claim. I see no point in giving a detailed critic of those noted inconsistencies ; I do encourage you to continue to do what ever you chose to do, your way, whether you enjoy it or not. Perhaps my logic constitution is just not geared towards belief based contemplations enough to make the level of judgements others do, prior to the accumulation relevant hard data. Of Course I make no apology for this as that is my way. | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 499 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 70.212.130.116 Rating: N/A |
.....journalistic challenge (in a number respects)> or ??? misnomer Ian...why not, maybe, perhaps, possibly, could be, within limits of ability, capacity or realization the BNO acrostic possibly somewhat, if not altogether less lengthy and comprehensive in description and succintness to a shorter. less cumbersome, more concise. brief, laconic summarization of the version ...and just call it NO....Nuts online... Good grief! FWIW | ||
| Clint Hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 37 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.235.190 Rating: N/A |
sounds rather pugilistically like the "call of the castierroughty", but all the same, codos on the creative application of said words. After all it be unlikely there be a thing under this sun that hasn't been used before, mearly recycled in a new form? In any case it is better said challenged when one speaks of me; and as it turns out it is at times easy to create new than replicate, at least before the advent of spell check programs. Necessity being the mother of most invention, but not all ! | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 730 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 64.55.111.6 Rating: N/A |
Obviously John knows the good thing about banging your head on a wall, (it feels good after you stop.) Where did the other 41 amps go? It DOES say 50A/24V, 25A/48V, and DOESN'T say 16.2/8.1 compressor amps,so maybe the comp is 48VAC, and the inverter steps up the 24V? The formula for total 3 phase current, as promised, is simple. The current in one leg times the square root of three, which is 1.7+. Times that by 8.1, and we get 14, plus the indoor and outdoor fans, the transformer, and the reversing valve in one direction, and we're pretty close to 25. I think 25/50 may also be what they want for minimum circuit sizing. We all know that you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. We also know that you can always tell a teenager, you just can't tell them much! The dog who was making love to the skunk had to quit before he got all he wanted, because he had all he could stand! Thanx to all who put up with this, did the calculations too, and injected humor and support! G | ||
| Patrick levenson (Zubzub)
Registered Member Username: Zubzub Post Number: 64 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 70.53.183.227  Rating: N/A |
Kudos to the whole bunch of you. Mildly educational thread re: AC; more so re: suffering fools. | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 502 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.209.149.60 Rating: N/A |
Whew.............. RCB | ||
| Clint Hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 44 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.235.190 Rating: N/A |
...your most welcome mcGeorgesix. Please do share what the manufacture responses is to your figures and "were did the 41 amps go" if they ever respond. I wasn't really interested in the vague specs. that accompanied those efficiency claims on any of the product websites, but I would like to see you find some closure to your quire as it seems very important to you George. Perhaps not as much as I would like to find someone with actual hands on product experience with any of the 2 HVAC unit or the DCairco A/C unit ! (again I state: If one wants answers they need to ask the right persons the correct question, which often isn't the same department that writes the advertisements. Making informed decisions does not always get easier with time.) |
