| Author |
Message |
Molsdorf (208.18.102.25)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 9:13 am: | |
Hi to all,
I'm back with my steering problems on my 4106;
I replaced the front king pins, all shocks, complete new tie-rod and ends, all wheel bearings have been replaced, even replaced large steering wheel with a smaller VIP one.
The upper steering box impeller shaft are all tight, the only play seems to be at the Sheppard box but it is not that long ago it was replaced. When I speak of play I have 2-3 inch (at outer radius) when all is shutdown.
The problem is when I'm driving down the highway it still seems that I'm steering all the time, all that I have done seems too have helped, I have several large trucks and drove a semi for several years I do not & did not have that problem before, hope I'm not expecting to much.
Now here is what I was wondering:
1. Can the air ride be causing this - as in a sway?
2. The toe in is set at 1/8" is this enough?
3. What should the ride height be? The front looks to be a couple inches lower than the rear.
4. Help ????????????????????
What am I missing?
Oh by the way it has all new 22" Goodyear radial tires.
Hope you guys can help,
Larry |
Molsdorf (208.18.102.25)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 1:10 pm: | |
The outer radi is the steering wheel, also the all the bushings have been replaced.
Larry |
Peter (Sdibaja) (209.242.148.130)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 1:17 pm: | |
My WAG (or farm boy educated guess) is that the toe in is not enough. On our Baja racers (VW type) we set it at 1/4" or so.
When there is any wander at speed we give it a little bit more, almost always works unless something is bent real bad.
With those big wheels you have at least double the distance from the spindle to the outer edge of the tire tread, the _angle_ of toe in would be about 1/2 if the inch measurement is the same on a VW type.
If it were me I would:
1. Spin the wheels to make sure the tires turn true (so my measurements are accurate)
2. Recheck the toe in measurement
3. Double the toe in setting
4. Road test
If that fails to make _any_ effect, putting it back like it was is a snap.
Peter |
Jayjay (65.134.221.56)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 2:23 pm: | |
2 to 3in. is not much play! Most buses are 5 to 7. Check the splines in the steering "drive shaft" that runs horizontally to the pwr steering under the front end. Another thing to consider is the wheel base of a bus is so much longer. Certainly changes the way it handles. I've about the same experiece level as you, and over the last few years there have been many posts about this problem. Seems to be the nature of the beast. BTW mine is "fairly" tight at 41/2 to 5in. play on a 19 in. VIP wheel. It started at 7in!!! Cheers...JJ |
Henry R. Bergman, Jr. (Henryofcj) (63.224.197.10)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 2:50 pm: | |
May not help you, but my Crown blew a Victors power steering pump going thru Sacramento during rush hour with a 20 mph head wind and......
The normally tight power steering because loose manual steering. Now have a new pump and the steering is STILL a little loose.
Seems we think there is still some air trapped in the assist cylinder or somewhere in the system. Could you have some air in your system? Good luck. |
jimnh (172.131.44.6)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 3:51 pm: | |
Play in the steering wheel should not exceed 2" on a 20" diameter wheel is what the CDL guidelines say for pre-trip inspection. My MC-8 after the Ross update was about 1/2" and my Prevost has the same. Five inches of play is just going to make your day miserable trying to keep it on the road. Busses should steer like cars. They did when they were new.
Jim |
Molsdorf (208.18.102.25)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 4:34 pm: | |
Jim,
That is what i was expecting (to drive like a car). All my trucks do and as much as I have spent (however needed) I sure was hoping for more. It's not much of a vacation when you battle that beast down the road.
Who would be the right person, or is there a right person to talk to about an update for that sheppard if one exists, or maybe rebuild?
Larry
BTW; located in South East, MO. |
Doug (12.90.22.13)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 5:53 pm: | |
Larry,
your 04 should have baout a 1/2" or so play still and shut down. if your air bags are starting to go, or the ride height is wrong that will thow off the steering geometry just as much as wrong toe in.
the 04 should be level when fully air'd up.
check the ht of the bottom just aft of the frt wheels and just frd of the rears......should be the same. |
Molsdorf (208.18.102.25)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 5:58 pm: | |
What should the ride height be on a 4106? I don't have a manual which I do need. I had asked that question before in the context of another post but did not get an answer.
Larry |
Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat) (68.7.217.217)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 6:40 pm: | |
My old superior bus was a total pain to drive on the freeway- you had to be on top of it ALL the time or you'd end up in a ditch at worst, or the next lane at best. I put up with it for over 100,000 miles until I finally got an answer from an old time alignment guy... turns out that they factory-set the caster almost flat in some busses so they steer more easily in the city, but on the freeway they wander all over the place as mine did. We ended up shimming the whole front axle 7.5 degrees with aluminum caster-blocks, and at that moment it became a dream on the freeways and only a bit harder to steer in the city. Maybe yours has a similar "factory design" problem that can simply and easily be cured by tilting the axle back a few degrees
Cheers
Gary |
Luke Bonagura (Lukeatuscoach) (12.90.1.68)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 7:51 pm: | |
Hi Larry:
With new 1 3/4" high rubber bumpers (between the axle the body), you take a measurement from the bumper to the body.
Fronts should be 3" and rears should be 3 3/8" (Per Da Book!!!).
Went back & read your first post.
You say you replaced the Sheppard box not long ago.
Was it a rebuilt or used unit???
Now, with a Sheppard box without 1 to 1 ratio gears in the upper steering box (at the base of the steering column), it is not unusual to have play.
One other thought comes to mind.
You didn't mention the condition of your radius rod bushings (both front & rear).
If they are worn out and the rods are moving, it can cause an over-steer condition.
Another thought.
Have someone follow you down the road and see if the bus is tracking straight or dog-tracking!!!
Dog-tracking can be caused by worn out radius rod bushings, or you could have a structural problem in the rear end which is causing you to over- steer, because the rear axle is dancing around. Have seen it all to many times!!!
Just some food for thought!!!!
You can hit on my name at the top of this post to E-Mail me if I can be of further help & then you can come back to the board if our conversation helps.
I Hope this HELPS!!!
At the end of a Beautiful day in the United States of America I wish ALL!!:
HAPPY BUSSIN!!!!
LUKE at US COACH |
Frank Allen (205.188.209.11)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 8:11 pm: | |
I had the same problem did all you did same problem, finally found out my alighment man had no idea what he was trying to do, the toe in was toed out now has 1/4 inch, check it yourself dont listen to others as i did , also you need plent of caster mine is layed back 5 degrees, the problem can be caused bu worn out radius arm bushings in the front or the rear, all that need to be checked carefully, mine drives pretty good, has about 1.5 inches of play in the wheel at the outside of a 20 inch . there not much fun to drive when they drive like that and a lot of them do , if you could everfind anybody that would take enough interest in what they are doing you could probly get it fixed. good luck, by the way mine is also a 4106 with sheppard, and they are not rebuildable in my opinion and theres no lash adjustment on them , i think they are poorly designed. just an opinion
Frank Allen |
Buswarrior (Buswarrior) (64.229.213.39)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 8:18 pm: | |
Hello all.
Lets be careful with "most buses are 5 to 7" inches of free play in the steering. That isn't a particularly responsible thing to write on here. Those who are new to this are "learning" things that are wrong. Know what the laws are about the systems on your bus and comply. Jim knows what he's saying: 2" on a 20" wheel maximum free play. Any more is illegal and/or dangerous.
If your bus was inspected commercially, no where in Canada or the United States would you be allowed to leave a DOT Inspection if you had 5 to 7 inches of play, and you would be charged too.
Just because we enjoy invisibility from the commercial safety laws due to the motorhome, RV, housecar designation doesn't mean we can run rampant, nor should we be counselling others that loose steering is acceptable, or normal.
If you can't afford to repair and replace to keep it up to standard, you can't afford a bus.
proper maintenance
plus
$$$$$$$
= happy coaching!
buswarrior |
Luke Bonagura (Lukeatuscoach) (12.90.1.68)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 8:30 pm: | |
Hi Frank:
I wanted to E-Mail you directly, however your account here is set up in a way that I couldn't.
I won't comment on the Sheppard design ( as I am not an engineer) but I would offer that their steering system has been sucessfully used for many years by transit companies all over North America with good results. Tough conditions on local city streets!!!!
With regard to a rebuilt Sheppard, they are available form the manufacturer today.
We have them rebuilt by a local (old time) steering company which does everything from car units on up to the biggest and we have many satisfied customers with our units on their coaches.
Just some more "food for thought" for those reading this GREAT!!! Board.
LUKE at US COACH |
FAST FRED (63.214.92.45)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 7:54 am: | |
Dont overlook LUKE'S comment
"Now, with a Sheppard box WITHOUT 1 to 1 ratio gears in the upper steering box (at the base of the steering column), it is not unusual to have play. "
The 06 has a 1 1/2 reduction built into the steering colum and THIS WILL increase the free play by about 50%.
A newer steering colum might be all she needs for the superb feel.
FAST FRED |
Molsdorf (208.18.102.52)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 9:39 am: | |
Hi Fred & Luke,
No Fred I sure won't overlook his feedback,I have purchased all my front end parts from him and was going to check what I can today of his recommendations and get back with him.
I thank you for your note, all recom's important to me. As the ratio of the upper steering box, I had not considered that, which makes since, I'm repair & replacing as we go. Need all the help I can get.
Thanks,Larry |
Molsdorf (208.18.102.52)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 2:33 pm: | |
Hi Fred,
I e-mailed Luke this AM, I'm sure he has good info also and much needed experience. I checked the ratio it appears to be 1 1/2 as you mentioned.
Thanks,
Larry
ps; A lot of good feedback is coming in and I sure appreciate it, maybe we can get this baby settled down & save others this grief. Next time we can refer them back to this post. |