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Message |
John Biundo (Jbiundo) (67.112.121.112)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 19, 2002 - 3:06 pm: | |
OK marine dudes, here are a few fiberglass questions for ya.
I'm putting on the 35' R&M fiberglass panels over my steel outer skins.
1. What would you recommend for bonding? I'll be using rivets where I can hide them, but in some areas I'll need to rely on an adhesive. Experiments with Sikaflex seem to work out OK, but I'm interested in any other ideas. Note, I'll need adhesion on both the front (gel-coat) and back sides in various places, if that makes a difference.
2. What's the best solvent to clean fiberglass? I've tried acetone and it seems to work OK, but want to make sure I don't damage the fiberglass.
3. I need to do something to finish off the joint between the upper and lower fiberglass panels. I was thinking of re-installing the original bus beltline trim moulding (i.e., covering up the joint), but got to thinking that maybe I want to try to somehow bond the two panels together with a seamless finish (i.e., a completely smooth side apperance). What would be involved in doing that, and would you recommend it for someone with (obviously) no fiberglass experience? If so, is there a "definitive" book on fiberglass craftsmanship?
4. Before going for the big fancy paint job, I'd like to do something basic to finish off the exterior. What's the best way (i.e., type of paint and way to apply it) to put something on that will look decent (simple, one or maybe two colors), last a year or two, and NOT be a problem when I go to get the professional job? I'll be using something like cool-seal on the roof, so the only other exterior to be painted will be fiberglass.
Thanks in advance!
john |
Molsdorf (208.18.102.55)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 19, 2002 - 8:32 pm: | |
I have included a link to buy the materials;
http://my.en.com/~bunnell/kart/kartlink1.htm
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catmain.php?dest=cathome.php
You need to use an aircraft grade of resin and epoxy:
A. For adhering fiberglass to aluminum or just about any material you can think of:
1. Scuff the aluminum, steel, wood or what every you want to adhere it to.
2. Mix your epoxy with cotton flocks, make a rather thick paste, put that on your pieces to be bonded. You will need to hold it in place with pressure such as a 2x4 up right if doing the sides, using a prop to the floor. You now should have it there forever. Try a test piece and you will be surprised.
B. For finishing like cracks joints etc use glass beads (milled glass, which is super fine, so watch lungs) mix it with same epoxy to a stiff mix trowel it on, but watch it for a while it will sag on you, you can keep troweling it back, it will dry as smooth as glass. This is not a structural material, just used for finish.
The fist is a structural material we use to fasten what is called hard points. Do be careful working with any kind of fiberglass material & epoxy, it is hard on lungs and liver. |
Molsdorf (208.18.102.55)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 19, 2002 - 8:38 pm: | |
You can also drill small holes in material under your mixed adhesive, which will give it something to really grab hold of, not much shrinkage.
Milled glass is some times called micro ballons. |
John Biundo (Jbiundo) (67.112.121.112)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 20, 2002 - 2:12 pm: | |
Molsdorf,
Thanks for the reference. Sounds like you've done this before! Can you suggest a good book on the subject?
So the techniques you suggested sound like they're what I need for structural attachment. How do I get the seamless finish look at the joint?
Thanks again,
John |
Molsdorf (208.18.102.170)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 20, 2002 - 4:45 pm: | |
Part B. , above takes care of all that, mad hammer damage, seams, shipping damage, cracks and you name it.
I did want to mention you can adhere fastners such as bolts etc to the back of your fiberglass panel so you can work on a flat surface. You then would have to drill holes and put over size washers on the inside, now this is only if you can get to it and don't have the inside completed.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catmain.php?dest=cathome.php
Plenty of good books out there - building with fiberglass - building composite aircraft.
Try Aircraft Spruce - Wag Aero - Wicks aircraft componets (was located in Highland Ill I beleive.
http://www.eagerplastics.com/bookcomposites.htm
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=aircraft+fiberglass+composite+aircraft&btnG=Google+Search
This last link lists hundreds of places to buy everthing from books to all the materials you will need.
Yes I did design & build many aircraft and components in fact I retired and am going to sale the plant, along with our other business, Classic & Antique cars, www.classychassy.com
Have many antique cars I would like to trade for a unit newer than my PD4106.
Good building,
Larry |
John Biundo (Jbiundo) (67.112.121.112)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 20, 2002 - 5:01 pm: | |
Hi Larry,
Thanks for the tutorial and the referrals.
One more question: the panels have what the manufacturer refers to as a "gel coat" finish. Will your technique match this finish? Or is there some final step I need to do to get that?
Thanks again.
John |
Molsdorf (208.18.102.170)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 20, 2002 - 5:22 pm: | |
No it will dry a sandy color.
Gel coat is normally just a base that you still finsh, like Vetts do, However you can use color gel coat, such as boats and some aircraft builders do. If it has gel coat on side you want to adhere to, you will need to scuff it for a good base so that the epoxy will adhere.
I assumed you were going to finish coat it? |
John Biundo (Jbiundo) (67.112.121.112)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 20, 2002 - 8:39 pm: | |
Ummm... well I'm not sure what you mean by finish coat it. You mean paint? Sure, that's what I had planned (btw, I posted a related question on this above... appreciate any of your insights on that point).
Or do you mean apply a color gel coat as you referred to above? (Is that what Vetts (do you mean corvettes?) do?) As you can tell, I don't know much about fiberglass, so sure glad to learn about alternatives.
If the latter (applying a color gel coat) is a viable option, I'll have to go investigate and learn more about it. Like, how does it compare for durability to paint? Is it a reasonable DIY option? How expensive? etc.
thanks,
john |
FAST FRED (63.208.87.232)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 5:14 am: | |
Jel coat was mostly a marine need , (at one time it was thought to be waterproof) ,and seldom used today on larger boats.
Although its still common on low buck things like hot tubs, dune buggy bodies and small boats.
If there is a smooth surface , 2 part epoxy , or a good primer will do fine.
The epoxies need to be overcoated in a reasonably short time with paint primer , as they get harder the bonding to the top layer becomes suspect.
Once a prime of your favorite paint is on , procede as you would painting anything.
FAST FRED |
Molsdorf (208.18.102.32)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 9:29 am: | |
No addition Gel coat required, use final finish as Fred descibed.
What I gave Gave you in what I called B. above will look like your gel coat but you have to paint. As mentioned above it will be a tan or sandy color depending on resin used.
That reason I asked if you were going to paint it;
was that you asked if it would be same color as the existing gel coat, so I said no you would have to paint it, since the question was asked I assumed you wanted to just use the gel coat finsh since you asked if it was the finish, and it looked complete.
I guess bad assumption on my part. |
Molsdorf (208.18.102.32)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 9:50 am: | |
To Refine my answer Gel coat is just used, as far as I'm concerned to build the glass mat up to a smoth base you can paint. Without it you would would have a ton of paint on it to build it up. We make are own panels up to 32' by 4' wide and use wax packing paper on the layout table to give you a side to finsh without that ton of paint. We also vaccum bag it, to make it even better(both sides). The finsh material mention in part B. above should not be used to finsih a large panel just do to wait. We use it for uses as I mentioned. Also we buit it and put in cool room before it set so it could be shipped and yet be somewhat flexable for the final user. You can still by the rolls.
Buy the book it will tell you the whole story.I will find the copy of mine in the next day or so when I go back out to the plant, if I have an extra I will send it to you.
And no to anyone who ask's, I'm retired and will no longer build or make anymore. |
Molsdorf (208.18.102.32)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 10:03 am: | |
John you can if careful use a small amount of flex aditive in you clear coat, like used to repaint your plastic-rubber bunpers. This will help on a large area that flex's such as that big billboard bus, I do use it. Clear coat is good for about ten years, on your new car you can circle your calender as to when it will pile.
John BTW by Vetts (I do you mean corvettes).
Folk's I'm sorry about spelling but I'm thinking ahead, way before I type this, so you know what I mean and am not going back and correct it, |
John Biundo (Jbiundo) (67.112.121.112)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 11:55 am: | |
Hi Larry,
Thanks. The reason I asked about Gel Coat was the texture of the finish, not the color. I do intend to paint, but I wanted to make sure any seams I cover over as you described are going to be smooth like the rest of the panels.
Thanks,
john |
Molsdorf (208.18.102.32)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 1:46 pm: | |
well that will do it, also use fill & sand primer.
Sorry no extra book, but here is the name and title of the one I recommend;
Sport aviation series/book #6
"COMPOSITE CONSTRUCTION
FOR HOME BUILT AIRCRAFT"
by Jack Lambie
Aviation Publishers
Hummelstown, PA 17036 |
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