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Jim Rink (Fakeguy)
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Post Number: 136
Registered: 1-2005
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Posted on Friday, April 03, 2009 - 9:24 am:   

I have thrown this out before about jake brake but looking for more opinions. I live in Cincinnati, and have made short trip to mostly flat terrain. I do not have jake brake and am contemplating the day when I might want to head down I-75 to Tennessee and Florida. I want to know if I must have Jake to make the trip or can it be done without.
Any and all input appreciated.
Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
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Posted on Friday, April 03, 2009 - 11:23 am:   

Search for downhill braking threads for the raging debates.

No you don't need jakes. But you do need to know your brakes are in proper working order and how to get down the mountain without abusing the coach and having it run away.

Run away means it won't stop, it will accelerate downhill with your foot to the floor on the brake pedal, smoke will be streaming out of the wheel wells, and you will be contemplating your role in the natural selection of the species.

Go do some reading, more to follow....

happy coaching!
buswarrior
Jack Conrad (Jackconrad)
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Posted on Friday, April 03, 2009 - 2:06 pm:   

Although Jakes make for more comfortable driving, none of our buses had Jakes all those years they were running up & down the roads all over this country for Greyhound. Secret is correct driving techinque. Take your time and keep speed slow. Hopefully, some of the more experienced "mountain drivers" will chime in with some tips on braking techinque, etc. Jack
Peter E (Sdibaja)
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Posted on Friday, April 03, 2009 - 3:49 pm:   

Jakes have always been at the top of my "must have" list, and also at the top of my "never had" list.

"never descend a hill faster than you can climb it" is a good start
John and Barb Tesser (Bigrigger)
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Posted on Friday, April 03, 2009 - 4:08 pm:   

"never descend a hill faster than you can climb it" was the for sure they way I learned it, but it doesn't hold true in these days of 3,4,500 hp
deisel as you can go up a lot faster than you should be going down. You can go anywhere in this country without a jake, but you need to make sure your service brakes are good and you need to adjust your speed according to the length and percent of downgrade. The "old timer" I learned from told me on my first trip," you can go down it a thousand times too slow, but only once too fast"!
Peter E (Sdibaja)
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Posted on Friday, April 03, 2009 - 4:17 pm:   

yes! those "escape ramps" do work (if you can make it in) but you get torn up big time

(Message edited by sdibaja on April 03, 2009)
Bill Gerrie (Bill_gerrie)
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Posted on Friday, April 03, 2009 - 4:44 pm:   

Jim
Jack said it all. They make for a more comfortable ride. I have used them for over 20 years and love them. I find that I only need to adjust the service brakes about every five years. This is an added bonus. If you are interested I have a set for an 8V71 for sale. Look on my profile an email me.
Bill
larry currier (Larryc)
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Posted on Friday, April 03, 2009 - 6:00 pm:   

Hi Jim,

Well, I have been beat up for stateing the facts lately, but you asked so I'm going to try and help you a little. First and most important especially with a 2 axle vehicle is that all your brakes are in good shape with no oil leaking on them and that they are properly adjusted.
Once you are there you have to learn your coach and they are all different. More shoe, less shoe. bigger drums, different emergency systems etc.

I would suggest you find a grade with a straight run off and no intersection or traffic light at the bottom and repeatedly practice rolling off with a little more speed each time until you have a happy medium where you are comfortable and you still have enough brake left for a panic stop at the bottom if needed.

The old speed down matching the speed up goes back to the days (trucks) of 318 Detroits and 220 Cummins and no Jakes, it was usually 7 MPH or less on the up side and always 7 MPH or less on the down side. We also have a brake application pressure gauge on the dash and the rule there is if you are on a long grade and 7 lbs of air pressure on the brakes won't hold it, you are going to fast. I'd install an application gauge if I were inexperienced and use that principal because I am living proof it will always get you home, I been everywhere!

About the escape ramps, I have seen them used on a lot of grades that you could just turn it loose on if you knew the hill, but do as I say and not as I have done. So, use them if you need them. I don't know about damage because in my 40 some years I have never tried one out although I suspect I have been close to 150 MPH on the grade that drops you into Las Vegas with a loaded truck.

That same feat cost one of my drivers 30 days in the Bakersfield jail for rolling the Grapevine, but many grades are straight enough to roll out on if traffic permits. Used to get a kick out of the trucks losing their brakes on Cabbage in Oregon and screaming bloody murder all the way to the bottom only to roll out OK. It could be quite spectacular at night! They still burn a rig a month on Cabbage year around according to their DOT site. Those are the ones who stop for the most part. If you get e'm hot, air going over them is your friend, stopping is the wrong thing to do unless its your only option.

Since I mentioned airflow another issue with coaches is low front suspension. First thing I did to both of my Eagles was get the noses up so it would pack air under the bus and cool the brakes. I'm on 3 axels and I can't get them hot and I have tried, Retarder on or off.

Correct brake adjustment procedure for manual slacks w/S cams is turn the shoes all the way into the drums, (watch) and back the adjuster off 1/4 turn.

If you have auto slack adjusters, you need to make a J shaped tool and with the brakes released hook into the bottom of the slack and pull the shoes into the drum.Usually takes both hands pulling to check but its a true measurement. If I have more than 1/2 inch of travel, I tighten until I am at the 1/2 inch of free movement.

As you gain experience, you will find many grades have flat spots in the middle and all kinds of challenging features.

Before Jakes, stab braking would not work unless you were empty. If you were loaded 7 lbs was constant and you would have enough heat that if you took your foot off the brake pedal before the bottom, air/oxygen would get get between the drums and shoes and they would catch on fire.

This senario, best describes the braking style I think you should work to perfect. Light steady pressure top to bottom, no air to the shoes. If it turns out you have very adequate brakes then you can carry more speeed. Let the disagreements begin!
R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
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Post Number: 594
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Posted on Friday, April 03, 2009 - 8:02 pm:   

Our '64 has Jakes...came with them MSO. I doubt seriously I would even consider driving a coach without them. Just my way.

And we still follow RJ Long's advice: Go down in the same gear(s) you went up.. Hopefully he will step in here before it's over.

Also check the Articles of Interest on the site. I believe he has a dissertation on the subject.

FWIW :-)

RCB
Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
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Posted on Friday, April 03, 2009 - 10:29 pm:   

How does a new guy know what "use the same gear going down as you would use going up" means?

In other words, the advice is: you need to have some experience to get some experience?

The advice sounds great, once you know what's involved, however, it is useless to someone new.

One thing for sure, the transportation industry perpetuates some dumb instructions to new guys.

Getting down the hill is very easy.

Universal advice, jakes, or no jakes:

You want to be going at a slow enough speed, in a low enough gear, that requires little to no use of the brakes, to stay at a steady speed.

If the coach keeps trying to increase speed, if you can't take your foot off the brake pedal, you are going too fast, slow down some more, gear down further, until you reach that steady state where gravity and your speed and your lower gear can keep it held back.

Four way flashers are on when you are 20% or better slower than the rest of the travelers.

If those who are following are mad at our slow pace, we are sorry, but that's too bad. They don't know what's going on. Turn down the CB, if you don't hear it, you don't have to worry about it.

The ultimate goal is to use little to no brakes in order to keep them cool. They do not work as well hot, and don't work at all, and are permanently damaged, if you overheat them, which will involve some smoke out the wheel wells.

Don't work at all overheated... you getting the mental picture here? You have a change of shorts? What's SHE going to think as it runs away...?

Regarding the stories of grizzled veterans, you will not find a brake industry engineer supportive of riding the brakes all the way down the hill.

And remember who is paying to replace the fried brake linings on your coach.

So, really simple:

The coach goes slow enough that you use little to no brake while descending.

Here endeth the lesson.

happy coaching!
buswarrior
R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
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Post Number: 596
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Posted on Friday, April 03, 2009 - 10:32 pm:   

You...and I were once "new" as well BW...

I had no teacher. don't know about you....I just followed much good advice on this and other boards...yours, included. :-) And thanx for that!

Meantime...seems to me naive to believe that one would take a coach on a trip that was more than "flat" without at least reading a thing or two about the experience, which is what was asked for.

While I agree, in principle with what you say...for the most part...seems you are a bit sensitive about other input. Didn't mean to offend...didn't mean harm...and wish the best for anyone who comes into this great "hobby". Not all of us are professional drivers...and I bow to those that are... albeit, many heads are usually better than one or two...or a few.

One day, one experience at a time...and.....thanx to all the folks who provide mucho helpful information on this fine forum. And thank you, Ian!:-)

RCB

(Message edited by chuckllb on April 03, 2009)
Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
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Posted on Friday, April 03, 2009 - 10:50 pm:   

Sorry, I forgot some real world examples:

Climbing Fancy Gap in VA, 5% to 6% for 4-5 miles

MC8 8V71 HT740 270HP goes up a bit in 4th, eventually settling in third gear 43-45mph or so. bus conversion trim, no granite.

MCI Renaissance 102E3 S60 B400R, 400 HP, goes up at 50 mph in 4th or 5th, doesn't matter. (runs cooler in 4th) seated load, holds full for a week away at baseball camp.

Descending Fancy Gap,

MC8, in 3rd gear, no jakes, glides in the balance at 42-44 mph, with about four brief touches of the brake pedal, each time to drag off 4-5 mph.

The Renaissance sails down there in 5th gear with the jake or retarder on, toggling between full and half. (full too much, half too little) The Allison is programmed to downshift to 5th, no choice. Choose 4th gear, less toggling, half jakes, no jakes does it, Downhill posted speed limit is 45 mph for heavies, 55 for the cars.

A Chrysler minivan with 5 guys onboard will simply coast in drive at the posted 55 mph, no gas, no brakes, steady speed for the whole 5 miles. Great fuel economy!

happy coaching!
buswarrior
Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
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Posted on Friday, April 03, 2009 - 11:08 pm:   

Hey RC.

You're right. I am. Thank you.

Too many collisions, injuries and deaths, due to the horrible training methods and mythology of the road transportation industry.

We make simple things complicated and pretend the complicated is simple.

Trial by fire.

"I don't know" has cost many a man his job, instead of simply being given the information he needed. So, a culture of filling the air with something, anything, to avoid that.

And then the next generation simply imitates those who have gone before, without thinking about their own wretched experience wading through it all and thinking about a better way.

Too many investigations have shown the seeds of fatalities were planted long before by trainers/teachers/coaches/words/co-workers, that in hind sight, set the driver and victims up for the calamity.

If the same rigorous standards that the airplane folks adhere to were applied to the road....

Damaged goods.

That be me.

happy coaching!
buswarrior
Gus Causbie (Gusc)
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Posted on Saturday, April 04, 2009 - 2:15 am:   

If you still have your 4 sp Spicer there is no problem with downhills as long as you start down at a reasonable speed.

Just don't let the speed build up.

I've crossed the Rockies and Cascades numerous times and the eastern ranges two times with no problems and I don't have a Jake.

I hold my brakes constantly but lightly when needed. There are others who say the "apply and release" method is best but I'm not convinced.
R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
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Posted on Saturday, April 04, 2009 - 11:48 am:   

No, BW...you are definitely not damaged goods...

I agree about the Aircraft industry. I took pilot training in the 70's and was amazed at the rigor, intensity and "completeness" of just getting to solo stage.

Gus..you have an advantage...."good sense" always precludes possibilities...:-) and besides, you have a 4 speed. Quite a difference when commandeering a 10 speed and a three or four speed on a steep grade.....up or down.

BWT...curious, have you ever navigated Wolf Creek Pass? That is a corker even in an automobile. Surprised we don't hear of more folks at the bottom on the west side...the wrong way. I lived in the mountains of CO many years (Buena Vista, Gunnison,Woodland Park) and the news was very sparse on the subject...perhaps for good reason. :-) :-(.

But, Gus, I just can't agree about holding brakes constantly....even lightly. I've seen too many burn up in that situation. Get the proper gear and one can go to the bottom without touching brakes...particularly with Jakes.:-):-):-)

"Keep tight wheels"

RCB
Clint Hunter (Truthhunter)
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Posted on Saturday, April 04, 2009 - 1:28 pm:   

- again well put BW, and good to put that "same gear down as up" in prospective. Not much of a rule of "dumb" if you haven't ascended the hill your currently descending for the first time and can not see to the bottom for a proper grade condition assessment.

Playing it safe, newbie or not:
...If you have need to apply the service brakes to keep the engine rpm ( & vehicle speed) from increasing above 80% of maximum rpm your are most likely descending to fast, you may need to slow it way down with that "cool" brake application and drop a gear ( CAUTION- very risky and can be difficult on some standards, which is why you should downshifted by the hill creast "by the rule of dumb") If you had been lightly riding the brakes they are already warm (better not be hot) and have reduced braking capacity for that emergency just around the next corner or that correction to the VERY CAUTIOUS downshift with a standard transmission; not to difficult with a automatic, just watch your rpm/shift point.

& & & always travel with a adjusted and inspected brake system in good condtion. Don't assume they are good anymore than you would assume that the road is clear beyound what you can see !
Jim Rink (Fakeguy)
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Posted on Saturday, April 04, 2009 - 11:07 pm:   

WOW. I really appreciate the great response and info from all. From what I can surmise, jakes would be a great idea to have...no downside to it. It is possible with my 4 speed spicer to make it without. I have no immediate trip planned over the mountains but am looking down the road apiece when we may start going that way.
Once again, thanks to everyone for providing great feed back as always
Gus Causbie (Gusc)
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Posted on Sunday, April 05, 2009 - 12:23 am:   

If I had a 10 sp or greater I wouldn't hesitate to gear down but with a 4 sp it is ridiculous and I have never yet been in a situation in which I needed to do that.

I drove an 18 wheeler for a few years and would usually shift down a gear or two but that was with 80,000 lbs, a big difference.

I used the constant on brake method on the 18 wheeler as was instructed in the test guide in those days and use it now on the bus and have never had a problem.

Speed is the key here gents!!
Clint Hunter (Truthhunter)
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Posted on Sunday, April 05, 2009 - 1:33 am:   

... now how does that rule of dumb go, double the weight , double the braking force,, double the speed ,,, quadruple the braking force,,,,double the speed & double the weight and you need eight time's the braking force. Can your brakes handle that all before the smoke or the banging starts.

Speed is definitely one of the safe braking keys, along with many other keys on some of the roads I have traveled in many types of vehicles (up to 30 wheelers), sometimes even down in low gear. Weight , braking force available, road conditions , length & degree of grade, visibility all go into unlocking your safe stopping distance.

If you do use your brakes a lot (constant brake method or not) , a Jake installation would pay for it's self in a shorter time against brake rebuild costs and it does allow safe decent at a greater speed (with cold service brakes kept in reserve) which reduces road congestion which is always a safety factor. Rebuild time is when I would think of adding a jake, till then use what I have and take a little longer going down hill.
R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
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Posted on Sunday, April 05, 2009 - 10:32 am:   

Clint....I agree...FWIW Well expressed in plain common sense English. :-) :-)

RCB

(Message edited by chuckllb on April 05, 2009)
Jack Hart (Jackhartjr)
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Posted on Sunday, April 05, 2009 - 9:24 pm:   

LarryC...man you brought back some memories!
I remember we had some disk brakes on some trailers...this was the early 80's...man would they stop you on a dime...when cold. Heat 'em up was another thing! No body told me that little tidbit of info.
I'm going down cabbage...80,000...and got them too hot! As you know...it's pretty much straight downhill after a couple of miles...I did know that and rode it out. Scarriest time of my life. I think it went through three stages of vibration 'till it slowed down!
Jack
Gus Causbie (Gusc)
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Posted on Sunday, April 05, 2009 - 10:59 pm:   

No question that a Jake would be nice and I would like one but not worth the expense for me because I travel mostly in the flatlands.

Those Rockies trips are only once a year at most and the eastern mts even less often.

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