| Author | Message | ||
| Kasse Weikel (More_s_than_as)
Registered Member Username: More_s_than_as Post Number: 26 Registered: 4-2009 Posted From: 24.176.245.108 Rating: N/A |
After consulting the archives, checking out the bible (happened to be plumbing for the free reading right now) and pondering a lot myself, ive decided to do the plumbing KISS style. much thanks to george and john who were all over the archives about it and in one thread led me to the shurflo pumps. 1. the tanks - im sure i can find em and they will have fittings for hose and an overflow/vent already? if not just get the hose in there to the bottom and seal it up, then make an overflow? any links to devices that measure the content of tanks to tell when next fillup/dump is due?? 2. i was going to get the fancy smart series shurflo pumps. i dont think a bladder is necessary for these claim to be ultra quiet as well as the "extreme series smart sensor." a strainer would come before the pump and a filter after (or should filter be after the tee allowing shore/park water, sometimes that stuffs nasty). 3. the first tee is for shore/city water with a regulator. no check valves needed for the pump here, should have one built in it already correct? 4. now we simply tee off to toilet, lavatory sink, kitchen sink, water heater, and shower 5. i thought a check valve at the WH inlet would be nice to keep water tank cooler and use less fuel to start up WH again. ill be sure to get an RV specific WH that has its own internal expansion capabilities, cause of check valve and no expansion bladder. 6. lines ran from WH to shower and sinks as well. will the water heater come with instructions that illustrate proper venting for the unit, or are there new ones even that dont need to be vented? 7. drain from sinks and toilet leading to black/ grey tank, i figured 1 100 gallon for black and grey together in one would do for me. P traps in all the drains, filled manually if needed while on the road (archive tip). shower is going to be a super simple design (due to space issues), and will drain to outside (I use all biodegradeable, earth friendly soaps and shampoos already). a catch pan can be used for it as well incase at an RV park or a festival. So thats it right????? really dont need any check valves at all if the pump already has one built in eh??? (except i want one at WH). I figured it would also be good to get the black tank as close to the toilet as possible. i remember from archives talk about different RV super efficent toilets, any links or brand names to be given here so i can be lazy and not go back into the archives??? Since its a transit bus and not a coach, should i keep all the lines inside the bus and insulate to protect against heat/cold. or ran below and insulated well would be ok? i plan on doing some travelling so dunno what weather shes gonna see. as always thanks a bunch, i just wanted to make sure im not forgetting anything. (Message edited by More_s_than_as on April 16, 2009) | ||
| David Evans (Dmd)
Registered Member Username: Dmd Post Number: 305 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 173.77.212.104  Rating: N/A |
Propane or electric for H/W tank? Make provisions to drain everything for cold weather, no loops or "traps" for water lines. think hard about the drain direct to the ground for the shower, it will be a hassle in every aspect. We dont need another reason for people to not want RV's parked here or there. | ||
| Wec4104 (Wec4104)
Registered Member Username: Wec4104 Post Number: 29 Registered: 7-2008 Posted From: 68.80.242.72 Rating: N/A |
In my quick read of this, I don't recall seeing anything about how you plan to winterize. Will you completely drain and blow out the lines, or will you be using the pink antifreeze stuff? I'd include the standard water heater bypass in your plans. | ||
| Wec4104 (Wec4104)
Registered Member Username: Wec4104 Post Number: 30 Registered: 7-2008 Posted From: 68.80.242.72 Rating: N/A |
I'll second the comment about the shower draining to the ground not being the best approach. As a compromise though, maybe you could set it up to drain directly into one of those wheeled tanks Camping World sells for septic unloading. Get a small one and keep it stored in the shower while you are traveling. | ||
| Don Evans (Doninwa)
Registered Member Username: Doninwa Post Number: 195 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 208.81.157.90  Rating: N/A |
Forget RV antifreeze, use a regulated air supply to blow system out. No need for heater bypass. System is ready to go just by filling the tank. No flushing, fussing, odors. Plumb the shower to the tanks with a bypass to the curb if you wish. If you don't you will wish you had. Put an expansion tank in, it just makes things work better, smoother, longer. Keep plumbing inside to protect it. Good luck Don 4107 | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 1546 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 76.66.16.212  Rating: N/A |
You may plan to never be where it is freezing... But life and machines throw curves. He who designs in order to accommodate freezing conditions doesn't get his pipes frozen on top of the other troubles that put him and the coach in those conditions. Where do you go? Where are your kids? Where are your friends? Where is your less expensive health coverage? What untimely major malfunction on the run ahead of the snow? Why might you be forced to go north, be delayed north or stay north? Depending on the temp, and your design, you'll put a freeze to your bus pipes overnight in sub freezing in Florida as easy as in the frozen north. The bonus might include, insulated tanks help keep tanks cooler in the heat of the day, consolidated plumbing saves space as well as being easier to keep warm through the use of a single heater or even a light bulb in the vicinity. You'll have enough to worry about, you'll at least have the satisfaction that the bus is able to support you, or take care of itself, with little to no fooling for the weather. happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| Wec4104 (Wec4104)
Registered Member Username: Wec4104 Post Number: 31 Registered: 7-2008 Posted From: 68.80.242.72 Rating: N/A |
I generally blow out my lines with an adapter that attaches to the city water line (aka: garden hose connection). However, my fresh water tank is filled through a separate opening that is not condusive to a pressurized air fitting. Even after leaving the tank drain open and letting the pump run until it stops spitting, I still don't trust that it is completely dry. Not wanting to risk residual water freezing inside the pump, a gallon of pink stuff added at the end is my insurance. The hot water bypass can be convenient for other situations, as well. I have taken trips when I know I will not be needing hot water and the HW tank is empty. If there is no bypass, after you fill with fresh water and turn on the pump, the first thing it wants to do is fill the HW tank. You'll have 6 - 10 gallons of water being pumped into it for no reason. Plus the air in the tank has to be pressurized or displaced, meaning more work for the pump. A bypass saves all that fun. The Smart Series from Shurflo recommends NOT using an expansion tank with that line. | ||
| doug yes (Dougg)
Registered Member Username: Dougg Post Number: 77 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 174.131.113.12 Rating: N/A |
After going through a few Smart Series burn outs, we put in an expansion tank and a cheaper pump. No problems so far. | ||
| Kasse Weikel (More_s_than_as)
Registered Member Username: More_s_than_as Post Number: 27 Registered: 4-2009 Posted From: 24.176.245.108 Rating: N/A |
YAY all the info! no one commented on my schematics so i guess i got that bit right shower - is going to be on the steps of the back door. yes i have a catch pan that could be placed INSIDE to catch water as well as outside. Honestly though i really dont plan on spending time at too many RV parks, and if im there ill keep door closed and put catch pan inside on steps so i dont start any bad raps. main idea of this bus is for festivals and shower design is to accomadate neighbors (at festies) being able to shower in back where the shop is as they want so they need not come ask us if we are sleeping inside. keep in mind this isnt my retirement bus, its my first one ever WINTERIZE - THATS WHAT I MISSED!!! I like the blowout AND pink stuff idea. i dont think P traps would cause any trouble after blowing out the system cause if there was water trapped still, could expand up and down the pipe as it froze. I could easily just blow air down the drains to get water out the traps too??? But if you say no go Mr. Evans (i only address you as so because theres lotsa daves here), than what is the most popular thing to do to stop odors from creaping up out of the black/grey tank, im total bus noob ?!? PUMPS AND EXPANSION BLADDERS - Shurflo has a unit that for TWICE THE PRICE more, comes with a 2 gallon expansion bladder(accumulator) built into it, its self priming, and can run dry without damage. They do recommend however a strainer for the smart series (25 bucks). the smart series specifically says that it will go "at home showers" with no pulsating and the electronic cintrol is supposed to make life MUCH easier on the pump. If WH has expansion capablites than the only purpose for an accumulator would be to have less cycling. water heater by pass - good idea and easy install, thanks! Ok so lines inside and insulated it is BW, im right there with ya i dunno wehre this bus is gonna take me and i wanna be prepared! | ||
| Wec4104 (Wec4104)
Registered Member Username: Wec4104 Post Number: 32 Registered: 7-2008 Posted From: 68.80.242.72 Rating: N/A |
Shurflo did have some known issues with the initial design of the Smart Series. Other members who frequent this board have reported that Shurflo support stepped up to the plate and replaced their units with a newer design. I have heard that you can tell if you have the newer design by the presence of an adjustment screw on the outside of the case. I don't think most folks worry about P traps freezing. The more common problem is that the liquid inside evaporates during periods of inactivity. If the liquid level drops too much, there is no longer a barrier to prevent the nasty gases from stinking up the inside of the bus. One solution to this is pour a tablespoon or two of vegetable oil drown the drain. The oil will float on the top surface of the liquid preventing the water from evaporating. It will stay there until the next time the sink in used. | ||
| David Evans (Dmd)
Registered Member Username: Dmd Post Number: 306 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 173.77.212.104 Rating: N/A |
Hey Kasse, traps in the drains are required, the toliet in a RV doesent have one, it just drops in, so your holding tank needs to be vented thru to the roof. When i said no traps or loops i was talking about your water lines. You can run them so they will drainto the lowest points. Wec is right about the H/W by-pass. If the tank doesnt have a drain include one in your plumbing. Avoid the pinkstuff if you can.I knew a boat owner who used cheep vodka,but air is the best. I like the idea of a by-pass for your shower but if you are doing festivals maybe you can do it your way.Remember tho green is the new word.The cheaper pumps work just fine.(Usually the more expensive the pump the quieter it is) Put a filter screen on the suction side.There is a alot of options now with all the pex tubing. Pricey but convenient. | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 625 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.211.2.73 Rating: N/A |
Well, David...depends on exactly what kind of "toilet" one installs...some don't "just drop in"...some have "up and over".."straight left or right" or maybe all of the above..(mine). You may be right that traps are "required"...but if not, certainly "desired" in most situations. Pray tell...why "avoid the pink stuff if you can"...what have I been missing all these years..especially in the commode, (keeps ceramic,et al, from breaking..), the shower sump, the sink and lav traps, etc, etc? FWIW, I always "blow" all lines, then run in "the pink stuff"...no problems in, well a whole bunch of years. (I lived in CO at 25 below and no problems..did that week to week after use... each week, after skiing or snowmobiling, or....and a strategically placed light bulb or two helps as well. (see BW post above) Do it your way!  RCB | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 826 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.31  Rating: N/A |
Kasse, As I suggested in another thread, you really should get a copy of NFPA 1192, which covers RV plumbing (among other things). There you will find the specific requirements for traps and venting, slope of DWV pipes, acceptable supply plumbing, and a host of other issues. If you have an indoor shower, it must drain, via a p-trap and proper vent line, into a tank. It may not drain onto the ground, period. You could be fined, or, in some states, arrested. Given your stated reasons for it, I suggest instead an "outside shower" (in addition to any properly plumbed inside shower), which consists of a handheld shower head and valve(s) in a recessed compartment outside the coach. These do not fall under the same rules for wastewater handling (long story). Then, if it is acceptable to do so at whatever festivals you plan to attend, you will have a way for folks to shower outside (perhaps rigging a curtain of some sort, and a slatted "floor" to stand upon) as needed. Combined versus separate black and gray tanks is largely a matter of personal preference, but remember that a combined tank has two distinct drawbacks: Any sewer gas that makes it past the traps (which will, sometimes, empty from road movement) will be from human waste and not just gray water, and when the tank fills, if it backs up into the shower pan (common for full gray tanks), you will have raw sewage including human waste in your shower pan. Waste tanks, whether black or gray, are not permitted to have overflow fittings to the outside. Your black tank will need to be directly below the toilet (or very close to directly below) if you wish to use a standard RV toilet. The tank can be some distance away if you use air flush, vacuum flush, or macerating type toilets, all of which cost a great deal more money and use more water per flush than traditional RV types. In addition to venting the tank(s) themselves, you need to vent every fixture to the roof, although there are limited exceptions for AAV's in certain cases. Nevertheless, you will need more than one vent line in the coach (although they may all come together below the roof line and exit the roof at a single point). Whether tanks come with supply and vent fittings is a matter of how they are purchased. Surplus tanks such as from Ron the Busnut may or may not have fittings where you need them, but there is much information here in the archives about adding them. New tanks ordered from, say, Ardemco include your choice of fittings installed in locations you specify. Remember to include low-point drains on your fresh tanks if you are not picking up your supply there (such as if you use dip tubes). HTH, -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 628 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.211.41.227 Rating: N/A |
2" (TWO inch) venting will cut substantially (eliminate ) any and all odor problems inside your coach. Venturi top cut on the protrusion. FWIW RCB | ||
| David Evans (Dmd)
Registered Member Username: Dmd Post Number: 307 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 173.77.212.104 Rating: N/A |
Hey RC,The pink is great for traps and toliets, any place you pour it in without question. I was refering to the poor souls who pour it into their water tanks and runn it thru the whole system and it makes that unbelievable mess. I cant count how many boat owners did that their frst year when i worked at a marina.Kasse, Listen to what Sean says and dont take his advice the wrong way. He is exaclty right, there is alot of great info out there. I mentioned George Myers of EpicConversions in your first post, he has the same coach as you. I converted (!!!) a VW van in 82, a 68 GMC schoolie in 84 and bought a 1948 GM in 96 and it came with some old Bus Conversion Mags. Opened my eyes! and then i tracked down Robert Redden in SC and he invited up to a Bus Bash in Bangor Maine. Learned alot more. Then learned about Ians site here and learned even more and went to Jack's first Bussin New Years and learned even more! I still laugh because i was driving south from NY every Christmas to Fla with no heat because i dident know you could run a propane furnce underway! (Thanks again and always Bill) Maybe you have seen some cool rigs at the festivals so you can get some ideas. Hit as many gatherings as you can and get info. Bus folks love to talk about their rigs. Dont take it personally. Everyone is here to help and will answer any problems that come up. | ||
| Jerry campbell (Busin704)
Registered Member Username: Busin704 Post Number: 16 Registered: 8-2008 Posted From: 98.17.70.96  Rating: N/A |
I have found the the smart pump is junk but they keep replacing it. But I do keep a spare. |