| Author | Message | ||
| macgyver (91flyer)
Registered Member Username: 91flyer Post Number: 341 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 74.193.225.134  Rating: N/A |
Ok guys... I'm starting the research for appliances and the "little stuff" that will make a livable coach. As the majority of you know, I've got a 1970 GMC PD-4905. It's currently converted as a "sleeper" and is not capable of boondocking, as it has no facilities. My needs will be "simple"... I'd prefer as much to run on Diesel or Propane as possible... Honestly, Diesel would be better, but it seems to be a difficult fuel source to use, so propane is fine. Additionally, I'd like everything to be both... Electric AND propane/diesel where possible.... But anything that can't be powered both ways, what options are there? For instance, say the furnaces are only available in either electric OR propane... What are my options to install one of each? My intended use for the coach will be for fulltiming, so I need things that require little maintenance (haha... yeah, right!) and built for durability and extended use. I'll also be the only one living in the coach. She'll be used for living while I travel from contract to contract (work) once things start recoving economically and companies are looking to shell out cash again. I'd also like to replace the three rooftop A/C's with a single basement unit... Ductwork is already in place, but I'll be replacing it so that the vents line up more adequately with where I'll need the cooling to be located... Is there a unit that can double as the furnace as well as the air conditioner? I've found that prices and capabilities for the Soleus units are fair, but the recent thread from George makes me question their products... What if I do have a problem with their units and their support is really that bad... or WORSE when I need them? After all, sitting in 115 degree exterior temperature in the sun with 140 degrees inside certainly doesn't make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside... Yeah, I'll be warm when I'd prefer to be cool... but the fuzzies surely will have melted into little pools of muck! I'd like to mount most, if not all, of these kinds of things in the bays that I can... Obviously, things like the fridge, stove and oven can't go down there, but everything else... I'd like to be in the bays now that I HAVE bays!! Let me tell ya... Moving up from transit buses and skoolies, those bays sure are nice..  Before I get into the generalities of what I'm looking for, I'll say that I intend to have CO detectors throughout as well as other safety devices... So there's no need to get into those just yet... I'm just looking for general information about the various systems that go into making a coach full-time livable... I'll get into safety systems another time. I've looked through the archives searching for a few things... So far, I've found that it appears the majority consensus is that Suburban water heaters are preferred over Atwood... Why? What models are best? I'd prefer something with a larger capacity than 6 gallons... 10 gallons at least. I've found the same for furnaces... Suburban over Atwood... Why? As for fridges, it seems that Dometic is the preferred brand over Norcold... Why? Anything else that goes into the conversion... What do you have? Would you have gone with another brand? A different model? What are the pros & cons of what you chose over what your options were that were available to you at the time you installed what you chose? What about propane? How much would be considered usable for extended boondocking? Should I go with the regular BBQ style tanks, or the larger tanks? How many will I likely need? What kind of automatic transfer switches are available to automatically switch from one tank to the other when one runs dry? It's going to be quite some time before I'll be buying anything to start my conversion... I'm not in a hurry. I have the majority of tools that will be necessary for the conversion, as well as appliance installation, electrics, gas lines, etc... Just not the materials yet. Also, I know that it's 'preferred' to go with stranded wire over solid core for both AC and DC, however... I'll be using stranded for the DC side of things, and solid core Romex for the AC side. I've seen this debate from both sides, and honestly... I haven't found very many people who've had problems with the Romex wire on the AC side of things. As long as it's accessible and can be replaced should it break for some reason... It's much more cost effective for me to go this route. On the subject of electrics... What kind of panels will I need that are cheap in price, but well built and will stand up to regular use? What brands/models are recommended? I'd also like to keep track of electrical usage... What kind of watt meters are available that can be installed directly into the panel for both AC and DC sides? I'm sure I'll have more questions later once folks start replying to the thread, so I'll leave this post where it is until then... Cheers! -Mac | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 438 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 71.55.197.237  Rating: N/A |
Hey Mac; I feel that the first thing you need to do and I think that you have done a lot of that is to determine what you need and then get the info from several suppliers and compare quality and price and servicability, and than go from there. when you decide on what you think then check with the ole' timers like John,BW Rc.[LOL] and I know I will help if I can too. But first get all the specs first 10-4? Gomer | ||
| Mark Renner (Boomer)
Registered Member Username: Boomer Post Number: 156 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 206.58.200.38  Rating: N/A |
If you have not already done so, besides the wealth of internet information and books, I recommend you read the section on Sean Welsh's website on how they built their coach. The systems on my coach are similar to Seans, and in particular I highly recommend the Webasto system for hot water, heat, and engine preheating. The Webasto only sips about 1/10 of a gallon of diesel per hour and is efficient and bullet proof. I have the Force Ten stainless 11 gal. water heater that is electric or heated off the Webasto. In my case, I am not a propane guy, we went full electric. We have found that all our cooking needs can be accomplished with our micro/convection oven and a BBQ, although we do have a Princess 120V two burner flat cooktop. As for fridges, combo electric/propane are kinda expensive. Once again I am not sorry we went full electric, so far. To each his own. The possibilities are endless. (Message edited by Boomer on April 23, 2009) | ||
| Don Evans (Doninwa)
Registered Member Username: Doninwa Post Number: 197 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 208.81.157.90  Rating: N/A |
Wow, so many questions in one post. It's like asking how to convert a coach in 20 words or less. If you ask questions about a single system you stand a better chance of getting good responses. I'll tackle the cooking angle, something fairly important to those of us that fit into the rotund crowd. In our first bus we have a propane stove/oven, a microwave, propane BBQ, and a propane camp stove with fixed propane tank and separate tank for BBQ and camp stove. No way to hook up to main tank. New bus will have a propane cook top without oven, a convection microwave/oven, propane BBQ, camp stove and a induction cook top. No chance I am going hungry!!! In a pinch the propane cook top can heat the bus with careful ventilation. BTDT For boondocking, removable propane tanks mean you can hop in the toad to get refills instead of needing to break camp for more BTUs. New bus may have both fixed propane tank (large) and will have capability of hooking up removable tanks. As far as I can tell, serious boondocking require one of three approaches. 1. Propane for long term refrigeration. 2. Enough solar for electric refer through batteries and inverter. 3. Lots of genny time for charging batteries to run refer through inverter. And of course there are many possible combinations of the above. If I am boondocking and it is hot the genny is going to be cranking away for the AC. Good luck Don 4107 | ||
| Ron Walker (Prevost82)
Registered Member Username: Prevost82 Post Number: 380 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 208.181.210.47  Rating: N/A |
For cooking we went with a 3-burner cooktop and a convection/microwave for the oven side. We have a slide-out propane barbeque in the second bay and the cooktop and BQ run off 2-30lb removable tanks. We have a house fridge, freezer on the bottom half, fridge on the top half. Have a Hydro-Hot, diesel fired heating system and hot water (love it) and 2 ducted roof airs. We have a 50 amp main electrical service and 2- 2400 watt trace inverters (one for each leg) that are run off 6-2 volt Absolyte Battery with aprox 1200 amp hrs. We have an 8KW diesel generator. We have 3 alternators on the 8v92ta, 2-250amp alternators charging the house batteries while running down the road (this will run both AC unit without running the gen-set) and 1-100amp alternator for the starting batteries. For water we pack 150 gal and 160 gal black water. We also have a bypass on the shower and bathroom sink drain, for when we are on hook-ups. We are in Canada so spending a bunch of money on solar panels didn’t make much sense, that money will buy a lot of diesel. I agree with Don that if you are planning long term boondocking propane fridge would work better. (Message edited by prevost82 on April 23, 2009) | ||
| macgyver (91flyer)
Registered Member Username: 91flyer Post Number: 347 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 74.193.225.134 Rating: N/A |
Lol! Seems I did ask too much in one post, eh? So where's that 20 words or less essay I asked for?!? ;) Ok... So, there is a solution to use diesel for hot water and heating... That's good! Webasto... Had one of those in my 60 footer and it worked great for pre-heating the engine. Hadn't thought about it for heating drinking water and the coach itself... I'll have to look into it. Propane... So, you can still get the big tanks that get permanently mounted? For some reason, I thought those were difficult to get these days due to the hazards they can present over the traditional BBQ type... I agree, propane is the way to go for as much as possible... But, on the flip side.... It seems that the genny I have is 18Kw... Yes, 18! I have another genny I'm going to be putting in as a backup genny that's rated as 8.4Kw... I'd like to have backup systems for as much as possible... Propane, Diesel, Electric... But yeah... if it's hot outside, I guarantee the genny will be running too. I'll take a look at Sean's site. ^.^ -Mac | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 832 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.17  Rating: N/A |
Mac, I've got propane for my stove and BBQ, nothing else. If I had it to do over again, I would have no propane at all -- strictly diesel and electric. FWIW. The construction part of the web site is here: http://ourodyssey.us/bus-conversion.html Sorry, but I sort of never got around to fully documenting the plumbing and heating systems, although the schematics are there, and it's pretty well described in the 19-page "statement of work" (caution -- it's dense and a dull read). -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 639 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.209.3.185 Rating: N/A |
Why not carry an extra engine, transmission,etc... Do it your way! RCB | ||
| macgyver (91flyer)
Registered Member Username: 91flyer Post Number: 349 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 74.193.225.134 Rating: N/A |
Eh, well.. 'cuz those weigh a lot... And I don't have spares to toss in the bays. ;) I already have a spare genny... Four gennies, actually... Going to sell two of 'em and keep the other two. One that's already in the bus, the 18Kw genny, and the 8.4Kw genny I have that hasn't even been started... Bought it new, never had a need to fire it up. XD -Mac | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 640 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.209.3.185 Rating: N/A |
My point, x-actly: ... and the weight of an x-tra genset?///400# +-.....translates into what..1 percent of the gross? That's a couple of x-tra pair of shorts or so.... DIYW >>> RCB | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 1562 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 76.66.19.196  Rating: N/A |
Have a look at the Dickinson line of diesel fired marine heaters and stoves. Fast Fred is a fan of these also. http://www.dickinsonmarine.com/ In gravity feed configuration, no power consumption at all. Heat/days of operation is only limited to the size of tank you hide up in a cupboard, plumbed with a remote electric pump to re-fill. I have a Bering model with the double water coils waiting for me to decide how to deploy it. The stock washroom hand sink water tank behind the mirror is one option I'm considering at the moment for an available tank to hide. Remote fill with an electric pump and overflow/vent back to the big tank. Still pondering how to get that water coil, the plumbing, the tanks, and everything in between to work together for an unattended, non-powered, freeze-proof, QUIET, bus conversion. Ski slope use and that sort of thing. happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| Len Silva (Lsilva)
Registered Member Username: Lsilva Post Number: 222 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 24.164.20.23  Rating: N/A |
I'll join the fray here. You weren't clear as to whether you will be connected at the job location or full time boondocking. I think the 18 kw generator is waaaay too big for most of us, the 8.4 is better choice. That large unit would probably run at 20% load most of the time, not good for the engine. I like keeping spares but a generator might be a bit of overkill. I much prefer basement air conditioners but one unit (the equivalent of two rooftops) may not be enough. The basement unit and a couple of rooftops for supplemental might be a good idea. I have a lot of thoughts here but perhaps you should outline more about what your anticipated use will be. Long term (weeks/months) at a jobsite without hookups? What part of the country (temperature extremes)? The level of comfort you want, the amount and type of cooking you will do, etc. Your priorities for dividing up the space living/kitchen/bath/sleeping? Full time without a home base? That means carrying four seasons of clothing and needing lots of storage space. On and on. Len | ||
| Ron Walker (Prevost82)
Registered Member Username: Prevost82 Post Number: 381 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 208.181.210.47 Rating: N/A |
I wouldn't have 2 gen sets on the bus. If the 8.4KW gen will work for you I would rip out the 18KW and install the 8.4KW gen ... You'll want as much free space in your bays for personal stuff as possible. We have 2 1/2 bays for our stuff, I got the heating system, water & black tank and gen set in 1 1/2 bays. something to think about | ||
| Tim Brandt (Timb)
Registered Member Username: Timb Post Number: 301 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.165.176.62  Rating: N/A |
Definitely calculate out your electrical needs and install the apropriate gen. I have a 15 KW but an all electric coach so it's running anytime I'm not plugged into a pole to keep my AC and refrigeration going | ||
| macgyver (91flyer)
Registered Member Username: 91flyer Post Number: 351 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 74.193.225.134 Rating: N/A |
The fridge... I've decided on a Dometic Kerosene unit... http://www.lehmans.com/jump.jsp?itemType=PRODUCT&itemID=557 It uses less than three gallons in a week... More than sufficient for my power saving needs. that's not necessarily where I'll get it, but that link had the best description and specs of it I could find. As for the genny... The big 18kw is a water cooled diesel genny... The smaller one is air cooled and fairly small in comparison. The generator will be the only major component I'll have a backup for, and I don't think the 8.4kw is sufficient to meet _ALL_ my needs when it'll be needed... It's just enough to keep things going and livable if I'm out in the middle of nowhere and really need power. Anyhoo... Like I said, it's going to be quite some time before I can move forward with purchases... Just trying to line things up and figure out what I'll be purchasing. ^.^ -Mac | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 641 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.208.193.73 Rating: N/A |
Lotsa' ways of skinnin' cats.....best take it one step, one day....at a time. My mother always said "wise folks change their mind"... FWIW RCB | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 1563 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 76.66.16.177 Rating: N/A |
oh boy, an 8.4K air cooled will be loud, and require huge amounts of air to stay cool. Double trouble. Can't box it in to shut it up. No one will be your friend if you are loud, in fact, they will run you out of town. Busnuts MUST be unobtrusive, invisible and silent when operating in the manner you contemplate. The least bit of notice, and some NIMBY will see to it that the authorities throw you out. Perhaps see if you can find a contractor or two who would be interested in those two, and use the proceeds to right-size a suitable water cooled unit for the coach? You could hear my 8.8 k air-cooled contractor model from anywhere at Jack's New Year's party the two years I was using it temporarily. If there was an award, I'd have won it hands down! It now serves as an able back-up generator at my parents' rural home. Depending on your AC needs, one of those Honda/Yamaha gas portables in the 3k range are simply lovely when it comes to lack of noise. I have the Yamaha 3K inverter model and can stand over the top of it to talk to the neighbours. Drag it to any point of the compass the shore cord will allow, leave it in a bay pointing out, whatever. It feeds the Trace 4024 and all is lovely with the world. happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| macgyver (91flyer)
Registered Member Username: 91flyer Post Number: 352 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 74.193.225.134 Rating: N/A |
Well, as I said... it's only a backup unit in case the main fails... The main 18Kw is a nice water cooled diesel genny. The 8.4Kw is gas... I haven't decided for sure if I'll use it or not... Right now, it's just a possibility, not a certainty... :: shrugs :: -Mac | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 760 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 208.100.193.1 Rating: N/A |
"The fridge... I've decided on a Dometic Kerosene unit... http://www.lehmans.com/jump.jsp?itemType=PRODUCT&itemID=557 It uses less than three gallons in a week..." BUT IT MUST NE VERY LEVEL! An antique Dometic propane will run thru a tank 4.3 gal of propane in a month. The new Servelle house style does far better , guess 50 years does something. The only downside of kero is trimming and keeping clean the burner , or it will stink and use more fuel. My personal preference for a boondocker would be all propane Range , fridge ,HW , heat , all can be found that require ZERO electric.Or close to that. For a winter aboard I would get a propane tank outside from a service 200 to 500G and be warm all winter. A solar panel or two would charge the cell phone and run the Sat or regular TV . FF | ||
| Tom Christman (Tchristman)
Registered Member Username: Tchristman Post Number: 76 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.218.33.156 Rating: N/A |
While I'm not full timing, I did set up my bus for boon docking for up to a week at a time. I have three Coleman 13.5 roof airs that work very well (single basement will take up space and if it goes out-no A/C at all). The A/C's have been 100% reliable for 14 years. I have propane to run my 3 burner stove with oven and my 35,000btu furnace. In 14 years, the both have been 100% reliable. All three roof airs have electric strip heat-takes a while to get warm but they do work. Instead I would install 3 or 4 toe kick electric heaters for when you're plugged in. My refrigerator is a 6.3cu/ft Norcold compressor type that runs on 12v/120vac. Also have a Norcold 2.1cu/ft 12v/120vac chest refer/freezer. Both have been 100% reliable for 14 years. I see that some boats are running two of these refrigerators for side by side. The advantage is that they only use 5.5 amps @ 12v when running. Appliances that I have read need more maintenance are Diesel hydronic heating like Aquahot with having to clean the combustion chamber and ignitor, keep all the pumps and plumbing running, etc. Any absorption type refrigerator (I realize some of the older units were rock reliable-but they are not available now). House hold type refers work, but are best if you're going to be hooked to the power pole often. Basement airs are good (especially if you have 2 or more units) but take valuable storage space. Just some thoughts from experience. Good Luck, TomC | ||
| Bill Holstein (Billmoocow)
Registered Member Username: Billmoocow Post Number: 16 Registered: 5-2009 Posted From: 98.232.218.68 Rating: N/A |
What the hell is everybody running a huge refrigerator for? Mine is 1.5 amps on 110. Use an apartment size refer. Mine is 24inch by 60inch tall. Runs on the inverter forever. | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 704 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.208.7.141 Rating: N/A |
Well, Bill... I guess like everything in life...whatever "turns one on".... As for me... I mostly agree with you. Depends on what one's "need" is, I suppose. Our 11 Cu ft. Magic Chef 2 door went "out" recently...back to the Apt. size 9.0 single door. Not enuf room and freezer space... Large size (house) is too much for us....no need of space and no need of elec. usage... AS FF says, Do it your way.... FWIW RCB |