| Author | Message | ||
| Peter River (Whitebus)
Registered Member Username: Whitebus Post Number: 65 Registered: 4-2009 Posted From: 208.54.94.84  Rating: N/A |
ok, I have no idea what I am doing re: electricity. I have a bunch of 120v appliances plugged into a 2000w/4000w peak inverter now. I would like to wire all the appliances to run on the electricity at the campground (I have NEVER stayed at a rv campground, so I don't even know what is involved there plugwise). so, I am hoping that there is some kind of all-in-one shore power doohickey that I can install, that would allow me to run my appliances while plugged into a shore power, and easily switchable to the inverter power when I am not (it doesn't have to be a hot switching, I can turn a switch) is there a how-to faq type of doc somewhere on the web I should be looking at? now I am really scared hearing about fires and tickets given out for substandard wiring etc. (Message edited by WhiteBus on May 21, 2009) | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 780 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 76.214.45.118 Rating: |
For the electricaly limited my preference is a simple plug and socket. Bring the end of the power hose inside and end it with a 30A socket. Install a similar socket on the output of your inverter. Get a plug and make an octopus to feed the 120V goodies as desired. Couldn't be easier. Fully wiring a bus camper would take a book! FF | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 835 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 76.171.79.185 Rating: |
Sorry, But the advice immediately above is incomplete AND DANGEROUS! Look to the National Electric Code, or the "how to" books available thru this site. Properly wiring a bus is much more difficult than wiring a house. Properly wiring your bus will indeed take a book, and that's what the advice above should have been! Absolutely NO advice on wire size, fusing, or grounding, "Couldn't be easier." should have read "Will be dangerous." You will hear from the other QUALIFIED electricians shortly! George | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 853 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.40  Rating: |
Peter, there is no "all in one doohickey." Well, actually, there is -- it's called buying a factory-built RV, which is the route most people who are not interested in a major construction project take. As George and Fred have both written, doing it right takes a book, and the one I recommend you start with is Designing Electrical Layouts for Coach Conversions by George Myers. It is available right here on this web site, at the following page: http://www.busnut.com/epicconversionsupport.html I usually recommend to also get a copy of the National Electric Code, available for download from the NFPA web site for $75. However, you will only need to refer to a handful of sections, and it is usually available at most public libraries. You will likely not stray outside the code if you follow George's recommendations religiously. As you go along you will develop a number of specific questions. Most of those will have already been answered here at one time or another, and so you should also develop some familiarity with the advanced search capability of this site. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 783 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 76.214.45.118 Rating: |
"As George and Fred have both written, doing it right takes a book,' But simply bringing in a good sized multi use "temporary" extension cord will hardly violate anything ,anywhere , any time. "DO it Your Way" includes the concept of minimalism. Not everyone "needs , wall to wall 120,240 and charging systems,and,and,and,and.. FF | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 854 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 216.235.106.75 Rating: N/A |
That's true, as long as you understand there are some very specific requirements (and, thus, limitations) on the use of "temporary" cords. For example, a temporary cord such as an extension cord can not in any way be affixed to the coach. You can not, for example, put a bulkhead connector on the coach side in order to facilitate connecting this "temporary" cord. The instant you build something like that into the coach, you have made a "permanent" installation, and now you must comply will all provisions of the NEC. Nor can extension cords be run inside cabinets or furniture, affixed to walls or other fixed surfaces, covered with finish materials such as carpet or moldings, etc. etc. So to use such a "temporary" cord set up (limited, as with all temporary installations, to a maximum of 90 days), you have to use a listed extension cord and run it inside through a door or window (you could, I suppose, build a small "door" just for this purpose). Then you could connect, say, a listed plug strip to it (which also may not be affixed to anything) and plug your appliance cords into that. There is no requirement that any RV, even a bus conversion, have an AC electrical system at all. But the instant you add even one permanently mounted AC feature, you now must comply with the full extent of the NEC. I suspect that most of us want to have at least one or two hard-wired appliances, such as an air conditioner, which really forces the issue. By definition, a permanently installed appliance is not "temporary" and can not legally be powered by an extension cord. FWIW. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| Peter E (Sdibaja)
Registered Member Username: Sdibaja Post Number: 294 Registered: 5-2002 Posted From: 201.171.230.132  Rating: |
Darwin's theory is at work, so that not an issue. Many a factory-built RV is poorly designed and constructed... not a good model. All the cookbooks in the world will not help you think. Read, look, ask... you are on the right track. | ||
| Peter River (Whitebus)
Registered Member Username: Whitebus Post Number: 66 Registered: 4-2009 Posted From: 204.62.111.51 Rating: N/A |
"For example, a temporary cord such as an extension cord can not in any way be affixed to the coach" I am not launching a satellite here. I am just trying to get some electricity to the bus... what you are saying is that if I have a 50a rv type extension cord, running from a plug on the side of the bus to the RV camp outlet, the plug is considered permanent installation? by all in one doohickey, I am referring to something similar to the all-in-one charger/converter/distribution panel, such as "WFCO 8955 ANP Power Center", or "Xantrex multi-stage converter/chargers (Trucharge RV)". These appear to have a 4 prong 50a round plug (which I see RV's have). I was hoping to install one in the compartment below the floor, and wire the 120v plug (or power strips) to them. would this be breaking the rule? am I risking health and safety here? | ||
| Peter River (Whitebus)
Registered Member Username: Whitebus Post Number: 67 Registered: 4-2009 Posted From: 204.62.111.51 Rating: N/A |
this one seem to be real all in one : Progressive Dynamics Inteli-Power PD4045 "Mighty Mini" less than 200$. | ||
| John and Barb Tesser (Bigrigger)
Registered Member Username: Bigrigger Post Number: 191 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 96.42.7.186  Rating: N/A |
Wow Pete, I am waiting for the answer to your question too. That seems like a great way to wire a vehicle in no time flat. I am in the build stages and that would allow me to do the 110 volt runs and also charge the house batteries all in one shot. For less than $200! The only thing I would still need is a power inverter that goes from 12 volt to 110 to run stuff off the batteries. | ||
| Len Silva (Lsilva)
Registered Member Username: Lsilva Post Number: 237 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 24.164.20.23  Rating: N/A |
Pay attention to the guys here that know. Read Sean's blog and get the George Myers book. The WFCO 8955 you mention must still be wired per code, only saves a little time and effort as far as wiring up a charger and the DC distribution. It also very much limits your options for future expansion. Get help from a good electrician, make sure they understand isolated and bonded neutral (not all electricians will). Get some basic wiring books, MOST home wiring techniques (but not all) will apply to your bus. Even if you get professional help wiring your bus, you must be knowledgeable enough to be sure they know what they are doing. Skimp on the cabinets, use cheap carpet, jerry-rig the plumbing, but get the electric and propane right. | ||
| Peter River (Whitebus)
Registered Member Username: Whitebus Post Number: 68 Registered: 4-2009 Posted From: 204.62.111.51 Rating: N/A |
Inverter setup is the easiest one to deal with at least for me. I always hunted for the largest power at lowest price. at truckstops, I saw 5000w ones for $500 I quickly discounted as too big. adding up all the possible stuff I would ever want to run (including 3 computers, 5 chargers for cellphones and stuff, window type house AC, and a small microwave, house fridge. I decided to settle for 2000w/4000w peak inverter, on sale at harbor freight for $150, minus 20% off coupon, so like $120... so far it works for me, but sometimes my solar panels can't keep up with my fridge. and I am more scared of propane than electricity, so I am staying away from propane powered stuff. | ||
| Peter River (Whitebus)
Registered Member Username: Whitebus Post Number: 69 Registered: 4-2009 Posted From: 204.62.111.51 Rating: N/A |
Len, I am going to the library to look all this up, I never realized it was this complicated... good thing I am not in a rush. for now, I guess I will just deal with my inverter. | ||
| Jack Conrad (Jackconrad)
Registered Member Username: Jackconrad Post Number: 1087 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 71.3.157.139  Rating: N/A |
Pete, That 50 amp shoreline cord is not considered an extension cord. It is a shoreline cord and was designed for what it is being used as. The code does not allow extension cords, usually referred to as SJ cable) to be used for permanent wiring. | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 744 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.211.84.156 Rating: N/A |
Then there is always the difference in Sine Wave and Modified Sine Wave....big difference in performance...and price. Depends on what one "needs".... FWIW RCB | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 898 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.162.76.130  Rating: N/A |
Peter - (You'll have to pardon me for not having read the entire thread..... I'm typing this on my cellphone) Fast Fred is absolutely correct. If all you need -right now- is a temporary electrical hookup that will run what you need, pick up a 50 amp RV extension cord, and a few adapters. You can wire it just as FF said, and plug your bus equipment into the inverter socket, or the shoreline. Do buy one of those outlet testers however, since you do want to make sure both polarity and grounding is proper! Buy a decent book as both George and Seam mentioned, for doing the permanent wiring. Oh..... And don't worry about the "fines"; it doesn't happen. Be more concerned about the safety of your family and yourself. Fast Fred's approach to simplifying the connections is perfectly safe, if you are certain of the polarity and grounding. It's actually safe enough to use seperate outlets (as he described), for the permanent set-up. It's not only less expensive than the elaborate ones the engineers described, but is 1,000% more foolproof. Have fun; check polarity, grounds, and insure there's no stray voltage chassis-to-ground, and have a great vacation! . | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 855 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 98.125.217.2 Rating: |
Do not confuse shore power cables with "extension cords." While they may look similar and even be constructed of the same materials (such as SO or SJ cable), they serve different functions and are treated differently under the code. If you permanently install an "inlet" on the coach to connect the coach to external AC power (normally referred to as "shore power"), then, yes, you become subject to all the requirements dictated by the National Electric Code, no matter what my good friends Fast Fred and John (formerly MC9, formerly New Guy) say about it. Despite their good intentions, they have no power under the law to exempt you from the code. As to John's assertion that fines do not happen, I can cite evidence that not only do they happen, but people have lost their life savings over lawsuits when their failure to follow legally required codes led to (or were alleged to lead to) death, injury, or property loss to others.
Each of these items is but one component of a complete power system. The code requires not only disconnects, distribution panels, and overcurrent protection, but also a myriad of other items to form a complete system. The book that I recommended earlier will explain all of this to you in detail. If you prefer, you can get the actual code and go from there, but the code is really written for people in the trade who have years of experience with electrical systems, whereas the book breaks it down into lay terms and gives you step by step advice. The bottom line is that your on-board AC circuits must be properly wired with listed materials installed according to their manufacturer's instructions. Circuits can not be run with extension cords, they must be run in conduit or with listed cable assemblies such as NM or AC, terminated in appropriate boxes. Disconnects and overcurrent protection must be provided for each circuit, and GFCI is required in specific locations. There are also specific rules about where you must have outlets and where you may not have outlets -- once you decide to have an AC power system, you have to follow these rules, you can't simply decide that you don't need all the outlets the code requires. Integrating your existing inverter with one of these distribution centers that you mentioned is also a non-trivial task -- you are better off with separate individual panels. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 900 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.162.65.128 Rating: N/A |
Peter - (You'll have to pardon me for not having read the entire thread..... I'm -still- typing this on my cell phone) You said: "I have a bunch of 120v appliances plugged into a 2000w/4000w peak inverter now. I would like to wire all the appliances to run on the electricity at the campground (I have NEVER stayed at a rv campground, so I don't even know what is involved there plugwise). " And to that extent.... Take some time to re-read Fast Fred's comments. It is imperative that you make certain that you do not inadvertently energize the bus by neglecting to check for proper polarity and grounding. Buy and learn how to use electrical testers, if you don't already own one and already know how.... As a retired telco guy, I have had my share of "hot" mobile homes (energized chassis or aluminum siding), and a few "normal" homes as well. Checking things for voltage (hot) conditions should be second nature to life, more-so, when you are in an ever-changing environment. It makes little difference if the item is "approved" or not, or if the work was completely done "by the book"; crap happens, especially on a motor vehicle. Vibration and temperature fluctulations can wreck havoc on the best of work. Checking for an unexpected unsafe condition should become your standard practice prior to touching your bus, each and every time it is powered by -any- electrical source. Be safe. (and re-read Fast Fred's suggestions again; they're fine!) | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 839 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 76.171.79.185 Rating: N/A |
Pete, John and I have agreed to disagree for some time now, and we still do. Fast Fred's first post was and still is dangerous, because it doesn't even MENTION overcurrent protection! I say that because of your original post/question: "OK I have no idea what I'm doing re: electricity..." That suggestion says "Bring the power hose inside and end it with a 30 AMP SOCKET...Get a plug and make an octopus to connect the 120V goodies..." So, we're going to wire a couple of FIFTEEN AMP PLUGS onto a THIRTY AMP PARK PEDESTAL CIRCUIT BREAKER? THAT IS 200% OF THE CORD'S AND PLUG'S RATING, like it or not! Nothing burns now, because the 2000 Watt inverter you're using is only capable of about 17 amps continuous. Using two 30A sockets to make a manual changeover is fine. Telling someone "Couldn't be easier" with "...electricaly(sic) limited..." in the same post, WITHOUT GROUNDING, FUSING, OR WIRE/PLUG SIZING INSTRUCTIONS is really dangerous. "Tickets for sub-standard wiring" are given out because it causes electrocutions and fires, not because the fire department has a quota. I don't care whether your connection is temporary or permanent, they don't make non-lethal temporary electricity. Be safe. (Fast Fred's suggestions are still dangerous, and I've explained why!) G | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 901 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.162.65.128 Rating: N/A |
Peter - One other thing...... Both Sean and George are absolutely right in their insistence to follow the basic rules of electricity. They are among others here, that can tell you exactly how it should be done, if you want to do it exactly according to "code". For other alternative methods and "Yankee ingenuity", try reading at some of the RV forums that are designed around the basic do-it-yourself camping enthusiasts. You -can- "do it your way", and still be safe! Cheers . | ||
| Peter E (Sdibaja)
Registered Member Username: Sdibaja Post Number: 295 Registered: 5-2002 Posted From: 201.171.230.132 Rating: N/A |
George: I see in your profile that you are a "licensed electrician" and live in Auburn, Ca. I am Not trying to be a wise guy but who licenses electricians in California? I have been searching the California Department of Consumer Affairs and Contractors State License Board web sites and find nothing there. Thanks, peter | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 856 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 98.125.217.2 Rating: N/A |
Peter, It is the "Contractors State License Board," http://www.cslb.ca.gov, and the license required for standard AC power is "C-10": http://www.cslb.ca.gov/GeneralInformation/library/LicensingClassifications/C10Electrical.a sp (There are other electrical contractor's license ratings limited to low voltage work such as data and telephone cabling or CATV.) -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 745 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 70.210.226.68 Rating: N/A |
Cheney and OBAMA...all over again... ain't it fun?  RCB | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 790 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 76.214.45.118 Rating: N/A |
"So, we're going to wire a couple of FIFTEEN AMP PLUGS onto a THIRTY AMP PARK PEDESTAL CIRCUIT BREAKER? THAT IS 200% OF THE CORD'S AND PLUG'S RATING, like it or not! " Who cares?? The campground will have a 30A breaker that can be reset if one is dumb enough to attempt to power the world with a power cord. Many coaches are set up for 50A legs and blow the campground breaker REGULARLY , when compromising on a small 30A supply . Like it or not , the safety is there, even tho you may have to go outside to re energize the breaker switch. Anyone remember keeping a basket of fuses and set of plastic pliers for AC resets? FF | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 857 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.14 Rating: N/A |
Fred, I think his point is that if you plug a 15-amp cord into a 30-amp receptacle, there is nothing to prevent a full 30 amps from running through that cord, which ultimately can cause a fire. I am not a fan of using dogbones to connect rigs to a larger supply than that for which they are designed (whether that's connecting a 20-amp rig to a 30-amp supply, or a 30-amp rig to a 50-amp supply), as there is always the danger that the shore cord itself or its connecting hardware will become overloaded. But at least with a properly designed coach system, there are breakers on board the coach that will, in theory, prevent this. In the case of a temporary extension-cord setup, if you build a 30-amp "two-fer" that adapts to a pair of 15-amp outlets, there is no such protection, and either 15-amp circuit could attempt to carry the entire 30 amps without tripping the pedestal breaker. This is one reason why such a setup is explicitly prohibited by the code. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| Peter E (Sdibaja)
Registered Member Username: Sdibaja Post Number: 296 Registered: 5-2002 Posted From: 201.171.230.132 Rating: N/A |
I have a jar of the old Lincoln fuses somewhere... Yes Fred, it is truly amazing that the whole world has not gone BOOM yet. I look out my window (literally look up and make a quarter turn left) and see many things on the pole out front that would defy reality to those who are book smart and believers of the "gospel of the code", yet it has been working for many years. go figure! | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 858 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.14 Rating: N/A |
This is an extremely common argument made by folks who, for whatever reason, don't want to follow codes, but it is fundamentally flawed. Codes are not really about preventing problems that are common -- we wouldn't really need codes just for that, as pretty much anyone with "common sense" (whatever that means) can avoid the common problems. Codes, instead, are really about preventing problems that are uncommon. Codes are about keeping you from doing something that might be safe in 99.99% of situations, because it is the .01% of the time, when you least expect it, that the problem will happen and someone might die. Periodically I get an email that regularly circulates around the internet. It goes on for several pages about how we grew up without bicycle helmets, seat belts in the back seat, car seats, etc. etc. and concludes by saying, essentially "but we are all here and turned out OK." The implication being that none of these innovations or laws was necessary. It might seem humorous, and one might even be tempted to think "well, yes, I am still here, even though I had no bicycle helmet (or seat belt, or whatever)". Of course, the author is still here, and the reader is still here, but what this ignores is that some people who might still be here today are not, because their car had no seat belts, or because there were no bicycle helmets. And, of course, since those people are not here, they can't speak out in reply to that email. The code speaks for the thousands who are not here today. The ones who might have wished cars had air bags, or houses had GFCIs, or any number of other things that would not even exist today, had it not been for codes requiring them, had existed and been installed to save them. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 842 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 64.55.111.6 Rating: N/A |
Sean, AGAIN, thank you AGAIN! My whole point was that the original installation was not wired or protected for 30 or 50 amps. I would be willing to wager that we would find some #16 AWG wire in his installation, which as you know is only rated 13 Amps. I just don't know how to explain to Fred that running wire rated 13-15 Amps on a breaker that will not trip on less than 30 amps WILL cause a fire! However, the great thing about this board is the fact that everyone else here can read this, and the reasons both of us have explained, and form their own opinions! Can't happen to me? Well there were 232 in my High School graduating class. It would have been 233, except for the guy riding in the back of a pickup who was thrown out when the driver ran a stop sign and got hit broadside. It threw Stanley about 20 feet, and landing headfirst killed him. The three in the cab weren't hurt. Everyone here has seen me crab about the dangers of carbon monoxide poisoning from improper heater/generator installations. This year's fatalities were 3 18-20 year old girls who went to sleep in a car overnight, before their first day of work at a ski resort at the top of Donner Pass. It was cold, so they left the engine running to keep warm during the 1 foot snowfall. Said snowfall covered the exhaust pipe, and the Carbon Monoxide came up inside the car, instead of going away. The girls were found when someone thought it was strange that they were still asleep in the car at 10AM, instead of being at work. The tables to determine the proper wire size to supply a load, and the proper size circuit breaker to protect the wire, have been around for well over 100 years. It didn't take too many years to discover that fuses prevented fires, they still do... I just don't believe a couple of these posts! G | ||
| Len Silva (Lsilva)
Registered Member Username: Lsilva Post Number: 241 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 24.164.20.23 Rating: N/A |
Every article in every code, every stop sign, every speed limit is a memorial to someone. I think the rules are that a new stop sign requires three deaths, a new stop light about ten. I'm not sure how they determine the rate for electrical rules. | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 843 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 64.55.111.6 Rating: |
Sdibaja, My license number is 624299, in Classes C-10 & C-20, which are Electrical and Heating and A/C. You can verifiy this by doing as Sean says, or their toll-free phone number, 1 800 321-CSLB (2752). Chuck, This STILL isn't a political board, and personally I don't think electrical safety is funny. The original poster asked a legitimate question, and unfortunately, he got an un-informed reply, and somebody STILL doesn't get it, even though it has all been clearly explained. Bottom line is Len's excellent advice. Sean and I have gone to a lot of work to explain why we have said what we said, and everyone has seen that there is not ONE word of explanation OR qualification from the "other side." All it would have taken is "Gee, I never thought about that..." I don't post where I'm not qualified. I've had it too... G | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 756 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.211.182.102 Rating: N/A |
Sorry about the sense of Humor, G.....it apparently offended you, for whatever reason. Whenever a "controversy" appears on this or other boards, it ...for me at least...shows there is thought going into these posts. And I thank you...and many others ... for that. But personal degrading is less than sincere. More like "what do you know?". Take offense if you choose...politics, electricity, heating, air conditioning, generators, air problems, plumbing problems or whatever....in general, OPINiONS are a fact of life, and just that. not necessarily the "only" way thangs "can be done...or should be done".. Things for serious consideration maybe, but not "the only way to skin a cat". My approach, right or wrong, is do with them as one will....but respect the other guy's "right" to his opinion....consider it, take it...or abandon it....often with consequences one might not really wish to have. Sorry to have offended you and anyone else that "might be offended".... We are all "experts"...at something...(perhaps life???)...guess it depends on one's experience...and perspective. Hope you had a good Memorial Day...reflecting on those who have done service for our freedom...to speak, to write and to expound. RCB | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 905 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.235.242.146 Rating: N/A |
Re: "if you build a 30-amp "two-fer" that adapts to a pair of 15-amp outlets, there is no such protection, and either 15-amp circuit could attempt to carry the entire 30 amps without tripping the pedestal breaker. " The 30 amp rigs were wired to use 15/20 amps, powering only 1 ac unit (and some of the ancillary equip), with the rest (incl 2nd air) on the "dead leg"; the entire RV was powered with 30 amp via a genset. Using the adapter allowed the "dead" half to be powered via an unused supply at the power-pole. It's been used for years prior to the 50 amp design, and is/was perfectly safe, sporting the standard UL seal. By the way.... Losing one of those 15/20 amp sources did not in any manner, manage to somehow put the entire draw on the remaining source; you simply lost power to those remaining items, just as if you never used that adapter. (just thought I'd clear up the heady mis-statements before another myth gets rolling) That said........ Long ago, when my alias was "jtng", I mentioned how an otherwise fantastic contributor and professional bus converter (with an excellent website with detailed instructions), made a very terrible error by promoting the use of extension cords to wire a conversion, instead of the proper code approved wire. I got beat up pretty bad over that post..... Even though I stressed that -every- extension cord ever made, carried a warning telling the user to make certain it is not sealed into a wall..... It can not be used unless it remains exposed. Don't bury the extension cord in a wall. And yet? One other note: I have two extension cords that have reversed polarity. After getting zapped while using my grinder, I took the tester to the power-pole, and it tested fine; the female end of the cord tested reversed. I think that all the goodness of the engineers intentions, as right and correct as they all are, would be falling on dead ears, if it isn't stressed more - to buy and use electrical test equipment. All the explanations in this world regarding "proper code", does not do one iota of good, to one that does not know how to test for, identify, and fix a basic electrical problem. I wish you fellas would write a summation of instructions, explaining basic equipment to have, and the simple, basic manner to use it. You'd be saving more lives doing that, than trying to scare the newbies with stories about fires and fines in your effort to force code issues. Understanding the intention of the specific code, and knowing how to test for irregularities, will save more lives than just saying: Don't do it. (and I still agree with Fast Fred, even though I think he votes for the wrong people and his political principles are screwy) (just a chain-yank Freddy, calm down, calm down..) . | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 859 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.14 Rating: N/A |
I think you have misread both the original suggestion, and the objection/correction to it. The suggestion was to use a 30-amp extension cord to power an "octopus," which puts 15-amp cords and devices on a 30-amp circuit. What you are talking about is the other way around -- powering a 30-amp rig from a 15-amp circuit. One is safe, the other isn't. Please note, BTW, that my original recommendation in this thread was to buy a book. That book discusses the testing you describe, and also provides a "summation of instructions." I made no effort to "scare the newbies with stories about fires and fines in [an] effort to force code issues," in fact, I made only a brief suggestion that the code might be handy (but not required if one kept to the Myers book) in my response to the OP. As often happens, we get into code arguments in these threads not because of the innocent questions of newbies, but rather because of the insistence of a handful of board veterans who insist on rolling out every time to say the code is unimportant. Those are comments I will not let stand uncorrected. On a separate note, I certainly was not among those beating you up about the, ahem, nameless individual promoting poor wiring practices. I don't remember ever seeing the thread, and I am sure I would have backed you up there. I've spoken with him myself on this subject to no avail. He also has some dangerous advice there about toad brakes, and I have to say that between those two safety concerns, I have steered as many people away from him as I can. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 791 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 76.192.1.192 Rating: N/A |
"I just don't know how to explain to Fred that running wire rated 13-15 Amps on a breaker that will not trip on less than 30 amps WILL cause a fire!" Great reply , but I don't think that was the QUESTION! It sure will , but the question then becomes protection method in a coach or home. Should the circuit protect the wiring or the device? I would assume with an extension cord (30A) and a 4 box outlet for the toys that the shorted device would be smelled seen by the camper. Same as a house kitchen a circuit strong enough to handle a bread making machine AND a slow cooker protects ONLY the wiring, not the device.. A fuse is usually used for device protection as it blows faster than a C-B will on vehicle circuits with this setup. 15A feed wires and 3A radio .But nothing I have ever seen in a home. There is no more danger from a proper sized feed and shared outlets than any kitchen circuit in most houses. FF | ||
| Len Silva (Lsilva)
Registered Member Username: Lsilva Post Number: 242 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 24.164.20.23 Rating: N/A |
Every article in every code, every stop sign, every speed limit is a memorial to someone. I think the rules are that a new stop sign requires three deaths, a new stop light about ten. I'm not sure how they determine the rate for electrical rules. Sorry for the double post. I don't know how it got stuck up in the middle of the thread. My computer is a bit wonky these days. (Message edited by lsilva on May 26, 2009) | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
Registered Member Username: Kyle4501 Post Number: 469 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 65.23.106.193  Rating: N/A |
When I rewired my 1935 house, the 'Code' allowed 15A outlets on a 20A circut as long as 12ga wire was used. The building inspector was very through in his inspection of the panel, wiring, devices & workmanship in the junction boxes. I remember asking why 15A outlets were allowed & his response was something along the lines of 'you aren't going to pull more than 15A from the outlet, 20A plugs won't fit it.' Made no logical sense to me . . . . Bottom line is to act smart & responsibly. Read the appropriate books! Apparantly FF was giving the questioner a little more credit in assuming he had the sense to not overload the cord. George & Sean gave detailed explainations that can/ will happen if you overload the wiring. | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 860 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 72.171.0.141 Rating: N/A |
Kyle, A 15-amp receptacle must be served by a 15-amp circuit if it is the only receptacle on the circuit, per 210.21b(1). If there is more than one receptacle on the circuit, then either a 15-amp or a 20-amp circuit is allowed per 210.21b(2). However, the ampacity of the wiring must still conform to the branch circuit rating per 210.19b(1). This is the only such exception in the code, and it is done to facilitate the installation of the most common type of multi-outlet branch circuit. It is true, BTW, that a 20-amp plug will not fit in a 15-amp receptacle. Conversely, however, 20-amp receptacles do have a provision to also accept 15-amp plugs. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 844 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 64.55.111.6 Rating: N/A |
Fred, You still don't get it. None of us should post non-qualified advice, and when we make a mistake, we ought to admit it! In your post of 655am this morning, you say, AND I QUOTE! "I would assume that with an extension cord (30A) and a 4 box outlet for the toys THAT THE SHORTED DEVICE WOULD BE SMELLED SEEN BY THE CAMPER." I can't even reply to that, I'm not going to try! A couple of questions though, 1. What happens when the camper is outside, or asleep when the smoke starts? 2. "SEEN" to most of us means visible smoke, sparks or flames, right? 3. What happens when the camper is outside or asleep when the fire starts? Once again, and for the last time, the original post mentions lack of electrical qualifications, and "a bunch of 120 Volt appliances plugged into a 2000/4000 peak inverter." As explained above, per OHM's law, which has been around for over 200 years, that inverter is only capable of just over 16 amps continuous. That will not burn up a #14 wire with a dead short. I know it is a 4000 Watt PEAK inverter, but it will trip for overload after a few seconds of more than 16 amps. I also do not want to debate shorted appliances ON PROPERLY FUSED CIRCUITS WITH YOU here, as it has nothing to do with your original dangerous advice, but. What about a shorted appliance on a 15 Amp cord, plugged into a 15 Amp receptacle and wiring, "protected" by a 30 Amp park pedestal circuit breaker? That is what you suggested, like it or not! How is he going to properly ground the inverter? You didn't mention that either! Kyle, I don't mind an intelligent debate at all, so can I ask you a question? What happens when you plug two 9 amp appliances into two 15 amp receptacles on the same 20 amp circuit? The answer, they both work fine. If it was #14 wire and a 15 Amp breaker, the second one on would correctly cause a trip. Logic? Each receptacle in the pair is rated 15 Amps. I won't mention that they sell receptacles that will accept 15 or 20 amp plugs. The electrical advice I give doesn't come with a warning to watch for smoke and fire! G | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 759 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.209.59.134 Rating: N/A |
 Life gets tedious...and particularly when opinions differ...(No politics here G...just real life). Please consider: You may be XACTLY correct....probably are. (I recall a recent thread praising you for your prestigious advice!)...think it may still be on "Last Day".....but why drive one's nose in it??? Kindness...helpfulness....cheerfulness, brothlerly-ness....fellow hobbyist-ness...that is what makes for great threads and helpful, usable, thought provoking (helps one consider all possibilities or advisability)information. I went thru the change of life some time ago..., so,for the most part am over that...,....( hmm)..so...I hesitate to ask ANY electrical question...though I have one as I write. A couple of posters seem to like to demean questioners..(me, for example), so I refrain. Ease up a bit, George...Fred. et al (me included) are "folks", too...no need ganging up because of "knowledge". Enjoy the trip...and the opportunity to use your expertise..hopefully, in a helpful manner. As for me, I am an Electrical dummy....but I do have books...still have many questions...still need (would like to have) answers. As for Fred, et al, knowledge re many subjects... proven over time. Forgive me, but gee whiz...some folks are just ...plain folks...and not experts. Why do I keep apologizing to you?....guess because I think you are important ...to us! RCB (Message edited by chuckllb on May 26, 2009) | ||
| macgyver (91flyer)
Registered Member Username: 91flyer Post Number: 427 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 12.198.81.194  Rating: N/A |
Guys... I see a lot of things on this thread... I pick up on the underlying tones of some of the posts... I'm not going to name names, it's unimportant... But think of this... My parents' house, AND my bus recently BURNED because of what we believe was an electrical short caused by rodents in the attic. You can't assume that, over time, something you installed or wired a particular way is going to STAY that way... Obviously, things can happen that are beyond your control, and only regular inspection of EVERYTHING will help you prevent smoke and fire... Take it from me... Plan for what you can't plan for... It sucks. Through everything that's happened, I've learned a couple of things that I already knew, but was reminded of... #1) Have a plan. If you don't have a plan, you'll be ineffective *when* something goes wrong. #2) Have an escape route. Can you get out the back of your coach if it's burning in the front, like mine did? #3) Check and RE CHECK all electrical connections periodically, especially those that rodents or other animals MIGHT gain access to. Make sure you can get to wires if they need replacement. --- Now, I'm not an electrical wizard... I "get by" with books and how-to articles I find... But had we had a plan when the fire broke out... Chances are, not as many animals would have died. Not as much damage would have happened, and my bus would still be road-worthy... If only we had properly planned for the fire beforehand, even though we were sure "it would never happen to us". Don't let yourself fall into the routine of thinking that it can't... It certainly can. And judging by the many messages I've received privately... It has to MANY of you. (You know who you are). Electrical and gas... Those two things DESERVE respect and all the caution in the world. Don't connect something if you don't know what its effect on your system is going to be. Don't build a system without consulting with the "experts"... Mainly, this starts with books on the subject then presenting your plans to others in the community that have already "been there, done that". Do this before you lay a SINGLE wire!!!! I have a long way to go before my coach can be used again... Possibly not ever if I can't salvage it... I just don't know at this point... But, it's time for *ME* to start looking forward and figuring out what the hell I'm going to do next, 'cuz... Lemme tell ya... What happened ain't no fun, and thinking about it and dwelling on the "what if's" is enough to drive me to the loony bin for some blue-juice treatments. Don't put any load on your system that isn't absolutely necessary... Don't ASSume anything. DESIGN around a failure. PLAN for action when failure happens. CONSULT with experts before building. Caution, Observation, Knowledge, Respect and Consultation... Always good things. Anyway... I just had to throw this in the fray... Electrical shorts and fire kindof hit a sensitive spot with me right now. -Mac | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 796 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 76.192.1.192 Rating: N/A |
"because of what we believe was an electrical short caused by rodents in the attic." IF the rodents ate the wires a bit and the short was large enough to start the fire , but was so small that the wiring was not at risk ( in other words you started the fire with 10A of resistance in a wire fused for 15A ,) nothing preventive could be done. Aircraft have modern breakers that MIGHT , only MIGHT have been able to catch an arc fault , but there not yet in houses or even $1,000,000 coaches. Sometimes an accident is an unavoidable accident . FF | ||
| macgyver (91flyer)
Registered Member Username: 91flyer Post Number: 428 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 12.198.81.194 Rating: N/A |
Yes... That was kindof the point I was trying to make, but that you should periodically check for damage caused by rodents or even just normal wear and tear from the vibration of the coach itself... Accidents happen... But there's no need to allow them to happen if a simple check could possibly prevent it before it happens... I only jumped into this topic because of what happened to me... Not because I'm an expert on the subject... Not by any means... Just more of a reminder to CHECK what you can... And often. -Mac | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 845 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 76.171.79.185 Rating: N/A |
On the topic of uninformed posts: ARC FAULT CIRCUIT BREAKERS have been a National Electric Code requirement for all wiring in bedrooms for at least EIGHT YEARS! These detect arcing at less than full load current, AND trip for ground faults of 50 MA. The original requirement was for the receptacles only, and was changed to include all fixtures in the next edition of the NEC. What this has to do with the original post, and the answer on over fusing, I don't know? G | ||
| Len Silva (Lsilva)
Registered Member Username: Lsilva Post Number: 244 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 24.164.20.23 Rating: N/A |
Well now there are two Freds that I have a lot of respect for, and that have some great conversion ideas. I just don't want either one of them messing with the wiring on my coach or the one parked next to me. | ||
| David Dulmage (Daved)
Registered Member Username: Daved Post Number: 249 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 142.46.199.30  Rating: N/A |
Having, prior to my current career, been in the electrical product safety testing business for a great many years and a member of various standards technical committees as well, I can attest to the need to refer to and follow the applicable standards when wiring a coach. Due in a great part to the codes in place, electrical power seems to be pretty innocuous and its easy to forget it's potential to kill. Just my 2 cents. DaveD | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 846 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 76.171.79.185 Rating: N/A |
Chuck, Just to clear the air, and so you know where I am coming from, and trying to get to, I offer the following. All of us have read the posts on this thread so far, and we can form our own opinions. I appreciate your efforts to keep peace, and inject humor, but I am frustrated by incorrect and dangerous posts. When information like this is posted, it necessitates a correction with explanation. This explanation was made by me and several others, and has gotten really frustrating because it has gone off topic, due to a refusal to just say "I blew it." As all of us can see, the poster has gone into shorted appliances, bread making machines, and aircraft circuit breakers, apparently to get away from the first gaffe. Unfortunately, the reference to aircraft circuit breakers being the only ones equipped with Arc Fault detection makes it obvious that the poster is over 10 years out of date with the current (pardon the pun) electric code. I'm over 400 miles from my 2002 NEC Handbook, so I can't quote the article numbers on AFCIs, but I'm sure they are in the 2002 Edition. As I mentioned earlier, the first Arc Fault requirement was for receptacles only, and was later upgraded to include the wiring for the bedroom lights and smoke detectors. As the NEC is only published every three years, that would make the original requirement 10 years old... So, where are we going to go now? Sorry, but I will not "ease off" of a dangerous post, someone else has said essentially the same thing in this thread also. No one should condemn another for asking a reasonably specific question about anything to do with buses. Yes, a new poster got jumped on not to long ago, but he did want all of us to post how to do his whole bus, and in my opinion, that was a little much. Hopefully, he's busy reading Dave G's book, and we'll hear from him later. Now, over a period of time, there have been two replies to corrections that I remember, one being "I stand corrected," the other "I am dumbfounded and will withdraw." What do these mean to me? INTEGRITY!!!!!! (And that means a lot!) So, KUTGW, and be certain I won't berate you for asking an electrical question! George | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 764 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.208.1.151 Rating: N/A |
Thanx, G...I appreciate the explanation of your strong feelings on the subject of electricity... My entire point was and remains..... that because one may be off track, or indeed "dead wrong", innuendo, personal attacks, caustic remarks and condemnation do not promote understanding, helpful information or "good faith" answers...The smoke of the battle obscures reality, if you get my drift. I cite another thread that is running as we write and read. I personally "respect" all information that is contributed, albeit some posts command more "respect" (regard) than others ....not only in content, but in practicality......and, indeed, safety is a priority "practicality". This board is near pristine, certainly as much so as one could hope for, considering world wide participation. I would do my best, even from my pulpit, to keep it that way... ....hopefully with the help of many others. That stated, the information you post is well backed up with facts, figures and....though not always easily understood by me,.....I am quite sure presented with only the best intent....the precursor of INTEGRITY!,.....always earned over time. Thanx again. RCB | ||
| Don Evans (Doninwa)
Registered Member Username: Doninwa Post Number: 206 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 208.81.157.90  Rating: N/A |
Pete, you might consider looking for a newer wrecked S&S for the basic electric service at a very reasonable cost. Good luck Don 4107 | ||
| Peter River (Whitebus)
Registered Member Username: Whitebus Post Number: 81 Registered: 4-2009 Posted From: 204.62.111.51 Rating: N/A |
I find all the opinion expressed helpful. what is a S&S? | ||
| Tim Brandt (Timb)
Registered Member Username: Timb Post Number: 340 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.165.176.62  Rating: N/A |
Stick and Staple term oftern used to describe a comercial motorhome | ||
| Peter River (Whitebus)
Registered Member Username: Whitebus Post Number: 83 Registered: 4-2009 Posted From: 204.62.111.51 Rating: N/A |
Great idea! | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 862 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.37 Rating: N/A |
Peter, I'd like to re-emphasize that you really should get the book. No matter where you end up getting the pieces, including salvaging them from a wreck, you still need the basic information on how to put it all together. FWIW, the components used in most commercial RV's (AKA "sticks and staples," a term not in common use outside of this board) are low quality and difficult to work with for the average self-converter. I include in that the items that you linked way up at the top of this thread. You will probably spend less by buying off-the-shelf residential-grade electrical components at Lowes or Home Depot than by either buying RV specialty products or a salvaged rig. Then, when you need repair parts or add-ons later, you can get them at any hardware store. The type of receptacles used in most RV's are actually an integral "boxless" type that often require special tools to install. By contrast, a plastic single-gang box at the big-box store, in quantity, is probably $0.50-$0.80, and receptacles are two or three for a dollar. A spool of NM is cheap, and if you want to get fancy, a roll of flexible NMC and three spools of THHN would run you maybe three times that. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 765 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.208.1.151 Rating: N/A |
Xcellent suggestion, Sean....one will save bunches by avoiding the usual "RV" retailers. One place I got lots of stuff ..Ronthebusnut.com... variety, priced right ... many take-off items from Commercial vehicles, over stock items, buy outs, etc..inventory changes pretty regularly and,,,,most important....ASK for what you are looking for. Chances are it is not on the website. FWIW RCB | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 906 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.162.83.69 Rating: N/A |
Ya'know...... Engineers always manage to make a power plant out of an AAA cell. Pete's request initially was simple and basic. I've read that first post over and over, and continue to agree with FF; that unplugging the devices from the inverter and plugging them into a suitable extension cord to the power-pole, is just fine. Pete did not suggest he was going to make that setup permanent, or rewire the entire bus to be energized in that manner. Tent and "pop-up" campers have been running all their appliances, including air conditioners, in that manner for years without causing harm. I think it's great to have this wealth of knowledge available here, and I'm certainly not trying to stifle it.... But sometimes a cigar is only a cigar. To suggest that Fast Fred is careless, or dangerous to those parking next to him (and calling me "Fred2"), is Damned cheesy. Re-read the initial post again, and let the world know why those same appliances that are presently all using power from a 2kw inverter can not be safely plugged into a suitable extension cord to the power-pole. Much ado about nuttin', if you ask me...... | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 847 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 76.171.79.185 Rating: N/A |
John, The inverter in the initial post is only capable of putting out about 16 Amps total, (2000W/120V.) There is no mention of overcurrent protection whatever, anywhere in that post, and it wasn't necessary, as the inverter output couldn't exceed the wire size plugged into it. Then the suggestion was made to install a 30 Amp shore cord, and connect it to 15 Amp receptacles. Again, no mention from the suggester to install 15 Amp circuit circuit breakers on the 15 Amp receptacles. So, the only overcurrent protection would be the 30 Amp breaker in the park pedestal, which would be fusing the cords, receptacles, and plugs at 200% of their rating. Then he did post that "you should smell it or see it," and I think he was referring to smoke, not cut cheese. It wasn't me, really it wasn't! Regards, George | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 863 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 70.58.64.85 Rating: N/A |
John, I don't know how you missed this. Here's what I read:
Now if, in your mind, "easily switchable" similar to "turning a switch" is met by unplugging everything individually from an inverter, and then plugging them into an extension cord, then yes, it can be that simple. Again, provided that the limitations of extension cords, which I outlined early in this thread, are understood and abided by. I understood that query to mean that he wanted some way to plug all the appliances into one "doohickey" which could be used to switch between inverter and shore power. That can not be done with any sort of temporary mechanism involving extension cords. Furthermore, having read some of Peter's other posts in other threads I have reason to believe that there will be permanently installed appliances, such as air conditioners, involved in his coach. Here again, as I outlined above, if there is even a single permanently installed appliance, you can not use extension cords and other temporary means to power it. It is against the law -- even in a pop-up -- and the reason that it is against the law is that it poses a safety risk. These last two items might be of interest to Peter in light of his statement that
I'm not the one who said FF was careless or dangerous, but, frankly, this statement
is beyond the pale. This is some of the most reckless and dangerous advice I have ever seen -- of course it's dangerous to connect multiple 15-amp outlets to a 30-amp cord. That's why it's not allowed. To suggest that "smelling" a problem is a reasonable safety measure is ludicrous.
Nobody said that -- I just re-read the whole thread. A "suitable extension cord" is NOT what was proposed, and it was exactly the "unsuitability" of the proposed solution that elicited the objections, which I agree were somewhat strongly worded, bordering, perhaps, on inflammatory. And, again, this method has strict limitations as I described above, which evidence suggests is not what was asked for. FWIW. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 801 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 76.216.69.160 Rating: N/A |
" of course it's dangerous to connect multiple 15-amp outlets to a 30-amp cord. That's why it's not allowed. To suggest that "smelling" a problem is a reasonable safety measure is ludicrous. " Yet is is just what happens in most code compliant kitchens with a 20A circuit with multiple sockets . 130,000,000 homes with kitchens? If were flailing about with the house code for vehicles yet again. It might be interesting to note what the "big buck" (Custom Coach et all) folks choose not to use (Legal?)house wiring , and will install "Boat Wire" tinned multistrand wiring and crimped terminals. Round up the usual suspects!! FF | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 848 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 76.171.79.185 Rating: N/A |
Fred, For the last time, your post does not address the issues! Your suggestion would have put 15 Amp wire, receptacles, and plugs on a 30 Amp circuit. How you compare your post to a Code compliant 20 Amp kitchen circuit that has 20 Amp wire and a 20 Amp circuit breaker is beyond me. What "130,000,000 million homes with kitchens?" has to do with your original dangerous post, I don't know! "If were flailing about with the house code for vehicles yet again." isn't even a complete sentence, not to mention again nothing to do with your original dangerous post. "It might be interesting...Boat Wire..." doesn't have anything to do with your original dangerous post. "Round up the usual suspects" doesn't have anything to do with your original dangerous post. Sean just mentioned your comment on "seeing smelling" an electrical problem, so I won't. You haven't replied to "...Arc Fault Circuit Breakers in airplanes..." yet, and again it has nothing to do with your original dangerous post. Since YOU bring up the "house" code, there is only one code for wire and circuit breaker sizing, period. I strongly suggest you read it for the first time! When someone does as you suggested, and wires 15 Amp RECEPTACLES AND WIRE ON A 30 AMP BREAKER, there will be burning electrical smell! George | ||
| Skip N (Skip)
Registered Member Username: Skip Post Number: 48 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 161.7.89.146  Rating: N/A |
Majoring in the minor???? Yes one needs to be compliant to the "code" but by doing so one can still have an unusable system. From the PO doing......... Both my barn and shop run 6-15amp plugs on a 20Amp breaker. It was wired by a licensed electrician. The problem is I could only run one item at a time. Totally unusable for the things I need to use. 4 stock tank heaters on one run of plug-ins. Not a viable way to do things. So now I have to rewire to accommodate the real world needs and usage. Same thing with a bus. The major question is what and where am I going to run an appliance. Then wire accordingly. With the microwave on its' own circuit etc etc. FWIW Skip | ||
| Len Silva (Lsilva)
Registered Member Username: Lsilva Post Number: 245 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 24.164.20.23 Rating: N/A |
Skip, The problem there was communication with the electrician. Putting 6 convenience outlets on one circuit is appropriate for most circumstances, though I wouldn't do it in a workshop. It's pretty typical in a living room/bedroom situation (not the kitchen). For your purposes, the stock tank heaters should each be permanently wired to individual breakers. | ||
| Skip N (Skip)
Registered Member Username: Skip Post Number: 49 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 161.7.89.146 Rating: N/A |
Len, thanks kind of what I figured. Rather spend the money on the bus though Skip | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 864 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 70.58.64.85 Rating: N/A |
No, it's not. In the case where multiple 15-amp receptacles have been installed on a 20-amp circuit, the underlying wire is still required to be rated for 20 amps. Moreover, the whole point of allowing multiple outlets is so that they can be installed everywhere -- the code even specifies how close together they must be. The idea is to make it unnecessary to use extension cords and multi-outlet adapters. In the mechanism you suggested, you will have 15-amp outlets wired with perhaps 20-amp capable wire attached to a 30-amp supply (15-amp outlets can not accommodate #10 wire, required for 30 amps of current). So even internal to the adapter you proposed, there is a fire hazard. More importantly, the temptation (and certainly the possibility) exists to connect either multi-outlet adapters or even another extension cord to the adapter thus made. Now the possibility exists that the full 30 amps will flow through an extension cord or adapter made for 15 amps. While it is true that a 15-amp extension cord can be inadvertently connected to a 20-amp circuit in a home, the risk of fire is much lower with 16 amps flowing through it (the maximum sustained current on a 20-amp breaker) than with 24 amps flowing through it (the maximum sustained current on a 30-amp breaker).
Fred, this statement might mislead someone into thinking the code does not apply to RVs. It most assuredly does, and an entire chapter of the code is dedicated to RVs and RV systems. The limited example you cite of a professional converter skirting some code issues does not make what they are doing right, neither does it create a basis for anyone else to exempt themselves. It is an accident of circumstance that there are a couple of converters doing this. They happen to be located in states that have no code enforcement for converters. If Marathon built their plant a couple hours north, in Washington instead of Oregon, they would have to comply with the law. Nevertheless, I don't see Marathon, et. al., playing fast and loose with wire sizing or overcurrent protection. They have made a choice to step outside of the listing requirements of the code for a handful of materials (including wiring material, fittings, and some components such as inverters). But understand that they (and their insurance underwriters) make a conscious choice to take this risk. I don't know about you, but they have deeper pockets than I, and they can afford to do that. If one of their buses burns to the ground, it's one bus; if my bus burns to the ground, it's everything I own. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
Registered Member Username: Kyle4501 Post Number: 470 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 72.147.39.41 Rating: N/A |
RE: "I don't mind an intelligent debate at all, so can I ask you a question? What happens when you plug two 9 amp appliances into two 15 amp receptacles on the same 20 amp circuit? The answer, they both work fine. If it was #14 wire and a 15 Amp breaker, the second one on would correctly cause a trip. " Well sure, that example is easy. The code's logic fails when you plug both 9amp loads into the same 15A outlet (say a curling iron & a hair dryer). In this example you are pulling 18A thru a device rated for only 15A while the circut is protected for 20A. The result for continued offenses may be letting the smoke out of the outlet. I've seen this several times. The best was an outlet that stopped working & when repaired, I found the back of the outlet heat damaged, the 12ga wire crystalized & the insulation burnt back several inches from the terminal screws. The worst involved christmas tree lights that overloaded a code approved 15A outlet on a 20A 12ga wire circut & resulted in the house burning down one night. Also, there are lots of multiple plug thingies (aptly nic-named 'fire hazards') that will allow one to easily exceed 15A from a 15A outlet & the 20A circut breaker is only protecting the wire, not the whole circut, which should include the outlet. Bottom line - If you don't think for yourself & depend on just the code, you can still get burned. | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Registered Member Username: Niles500 Post Number: 922 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 173.78.29.189 Rating: N/A |
Where do you all live that their codes allow you to use wire underated for the breaker? Codes are "minimum" requirements, not "best" practices - As far as the 15 amp receptacles on a 20 amp circuit, duplex receptacles are (2) "independent" receptacles contained in a single appliance - And if memory serves me correct, there is no difference internaly between a 15 amp duplex recep and a 20 amp recep, only the faceplates are different - FWIW (Message edited by niles500 on May 30, 2009) | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Registered Member Username: Rjlong Post Number: 1562 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 98.192.173.82  Rating: N/A |
Peter - See what a hornet's nest you stirred up? OTOH, it's also provided a wealth of information, with one underlying theme: Don't scrimp here to save $$$, do it right the first time. Sean & George - IIRC, One of the things that folk have trouble wrapping their head around is the different bonding required between shore power and genset usage. Me included. Lots of folk buy those expensive "doohickeys" that automatically sense and switch, which I think is what Peter was initially asking about. Several folk with older conversions have handled this challenge with a simple plug arrangement: Shore Power - The shore power umbilical cord is hardwired into a panel box, with the proper ground & bonding for that application. On the front of the box is a female plug receptacle. Genset Power - Adjacent to the shore power panel box is a matching box hardwired to the genset, with the correct ground/bonding for genset usage. It too has a female plug receptacle. House 120V - All of the house systems are wired into a third breaker panel box, located above the shore & genset boxes. Out of the bottom of this box is an appropriately sized cord (think left-over shore power umbilical) with a male plug on it. Following the KISS principle, when one is parked and on the umbilical cord, the male plug is plugged into the shore power outlet. When under way, or boondocking using the noisemaker, the house system plug is plugged into the genset outlet. Simple, switch-over has to be done by hand, no magic "doohickey" to fail, etc. One such system that I know of is mounted on the wall inside the bedroom closet, where it's easily accessible and can also be changed over in inclement weather, compared to having it downstairs in a bay. Your thoughts & comments? | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 865 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 70.58.64.85 Rating: N/A |
RJ, If all you are talking about is shore and generator, the bonding issues are exceedingly simple. It is only when an inverter is involved that things can get complex beyond belief; to see what I am talking about, have a look at these three threads (among many): http://www.busnut.com/bbs/messages/233/18881.html http://www.busnut.com/bbs/messages/233/5678.html http://www.busnut.com/bbs/messages/233/18376.html Now that I have said that, though, I have to tell you that your proposal, while it would work and is most likely fairly safe, is technically not allowed within the code. That's because you are not permitted to use a plug and cord as part of the permanently installed internal system, but only as the main shore entry. A safe and compliant way to do exactly what you propose is to simply have the receptacle from the generator conveniently located in the same compartment as the shore power inlet. Then it is a simple matter of plugging the shore cord into a shore outlet when available, or the generator outlet otherwise. (Note that this is often how commercial RVs are set up.) The shore inlet would then be directly wired to the main panel (what you have labeled "House 120") in the coach. In that panel, you will have separate and isolated ground and neutral busses, and the ground bus will also be connected to the coach frame. If you really want to be able to switch between shore and generator from inside the coach, then using a switch that switches both hot and neutral between sources is required. The switch can be manually operated or electrically operated, either on manual command or automatically when, for example, the generator starts. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 805 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 76.216.69.160 Rating: N/A |
MY suggestion on using a 30A power hose is based on 2 realities. 1 hopefully the coach will get a true electrical system some time down the road. 2 The marine 30A yellow power cords are built really tough , drive over them , step on them , leave em in the rain for a decade no problem. SO in 15A or other house stuff in a grade near marine is not at Home Depot , or anywhere I have ever seen. So our converter can answer his temp need for power in the conversion , to do HIS WAY, and he need not through his expensive power cord away in completion, simply change the ends to RV.. May not be code , but a lot of bus campers were created with an extension cord , dragged thru a window , for a couple of years. FF (Message edited by FAST FRED on May 30, 2009) | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 907 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.162.78.45 Rating: N/A |
Fred - I cringe when I think of the words: "Elitist vs. Realist", but I don't know how else to say it... Those citing "code" are absolutely correct with their explanations of safety concerns, but Kyle said it best in his last post..... And it was exactly what I've been hollering about for years..... It's better to understand the intent of the code, than to simply follow it blindly. And while the "codests" are right regarding certain safety issues, they manage to get overwhelmed by their own knowledge; they forget that 99% of the readers have well-developed brains and depend on their own common sense for survival. What it boils down to, Fred.... Is that some of us that have had to use our own ingenuity to solve a problem, have managed to find safe solutions to a problem without benefit of some national board of experts demanding we follow their lead. I suppose that really can bother a "purist"? ("purist - is a person; n. purest - is an adjective; v) (it's tough, typing on a PPC) I (like you), have more faith in my fellow man to use their own common sense. With this thread's topic, a basic knowledge and a basic understanding of the safety issues concerning grounding and bonding (and perhaps "wire capacity"), is a must..... But to suggest that only a permanent, 100% code compliant design is the absolute only remedy, is....... well..... This thread is a good reason to encourage "newbies" to visit the RV forums between their reads here. All the knowledge in the world, is never better than the use of common sense. It's too bad that some feel those around them are deficient, simply due to their lack of ability to say verbatim the words from a text book...... Ignoring their ability to have survived so well, for so long, in spite of it. As with everything, Fred.... It's just a matter of knowing there is a "right and wrong", and having the common sense to tell the difference..... Lotsa' luck to all the "Petes" out there! (Message edited by John_MC9 on May 30, 2009) | ||
| Len Silva (Lsilva)
Registered Member Username: Lsilva Post Number: 246 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 24.164.20.23 Rating: N/A |
I agree completely. If you thoroughly understand the reasoning behind a code, and know for sure that your proposed "violation" will still be safe, it's probably OK to do in your own conversion. The biggest problem there may be after it passes on to the next owner who may or may not understand what you did. Thoroughly understanding the reason for the code does not include wiring multiple 15 amp outlets to a 30 amp breaker. | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 908 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.162.92.178 Rating: N/A |
Len - Re: "Thoroughly understanding the reason for the code does not include wiring multiple 15 amp outlets to a 30 amp breaker." Har! Having a "feeling" that it'd be crazy to try to use more than 30 amps on a 30 amp circuit, is where the "common sense" fits in.... Whenever I think of "code", or hear the preaching of following "code" without question, I somehow remember the miles of aluminum wiring I had helped rip out of many, many well constructed, expensive homes. Hopefully, this thread is educational to all, regardless of experience or schooling. ~~~ZAAaaaaap^* | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 866 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 70.58.64.85 Rating: N/A |
John, Fred, and others: This reasoning flies in the face of reality in light of the OP's very first statement:
You are here pontificating about how reasonable people with common sense and a lot of experience can possibly create a safe installation without following the code. Arguing that point is like debating how many angels can dance on the point of a pin -- I can't win it, I can only say that safe or not, it isn't legal. And I would suggest that neither of you would board an airliner if you knew ahead of time that is was built from common sense but not to code, just because someone told you they thought is was perfectly safe regardless. But you are providing advice to people here who do not even fit the criteria that you yourself laid out: "understand the intent of the code," "understanding of the safety issues concerning grounding and bonding," "wire capacity," etc. To advise these people that there is no need for them to follow the code, but rather simply the advice of random unknown (to them) and possibly unqualified strangers on an Internet bulletin board (so it must all be true) is reckless and irresponsible. One of the very reasons for the code to exist is to guide people with otherwise little or no experience or understanding of the subject in a safe and correct direction. As for the "elitist vs. realist" comment -- shame on you. Would you go to a surgeon who did not complete medical school? Fly behind a pilot who never got her license? Trust your life on a roller coaster designed by someone without an engineering degree? Stay on the 48th floor of a hotel that was not built to code? Like it or not, (and, frankly, I do), we live in a society where not everyone is allowed to do anything -- there are rules that must be followed, especially where life is at risk. Codes save lives, plain and simple. If you want to risk your own life by stepping outside it, I'm not going to be the one to stop you. But please, don't come here and start advising newbies to follow in your footsteps. If you do, I will call you on it every time. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 849 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 208.57.243.176 Rating: N/A |
John, What you say makes sense, and as usual, you present a different point of view, which is not bad. But we know from your work experience that you understand wire and circuit breaker sizing. We also know that the original poster declares no electrical experience. So, does he, or the many other people you describe, understand what can happen when he does as Fred suggested? Kyle describes what happened when too many Christmas lights were plugged into one receptacle. Probably the receptacle was the innocent victim, and the burning actually started in the plug, and heated everything up. Christmas lights all come with a warning nowadays against plugging in too many strings end to end, to prevent fires from happening. There is no warning on a 15 Amp receptacle, or a roll of #14 wire, or a #14 or #16 gauge extension cord, aginst connecting it to a 30 Amp breaker! An electrically non-qualified person will not know that, which is why people should be careful of what they post. I think the spelling, as you intend the word to be used, should be "purist." "My suggestion on using a 30A power cord is based on two realities...hopefully a permanent system..." Well what happens in the meantime? It won't burn up because the owner is going to put in a permenent system later? The problem STILL isn't the "Yellow heavy duty 30A cord," its the 15 Amp receptacles that are connected to it and its 30 Amp breaker! G | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 766 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.209.19.87 Rating: |
And the beat goes on.....and with decorum!!!!! Danke schoen, Muchas Gracias. Mercie' and Thanx, fellows. Good show. RCB | ||
| Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
Registered Member Username: Pvcces Post Number: 1289 Registered: 5-2001 Posted From: 65.74.69.200 Rating: N/A |
I side with RCB; good show fellas. That ought to teach a bunch of people a few things. Sean, I also think that your post replying to RJ was beautifully written for giving clarity to the subject. I very much hope that neither Sean or George loses his patience and quits posting. Thanks for the work you guys put into the board. Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576 Suncatcher Ketchikan, Alaska | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 808 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 76.216.69.160 Rating: N/A |
""If you thoroughly understand the reasoning behind a code, and know for sure that your proposed "violation" will still be safe, it's probably OK to do in your own conversion."" With the knowledge that there is NO VEHICLE (from motor bike to space shuttle)in the world built with solid copper wire , or bent ends under a screw , I feel very justified with a good grade of multistrand tinned Boat wire and proper terminal ends under a screw. The Origonal coach wiring is for VEHICLES , and on many coaches is 5 decades old. Would not following the RVIA house code to the letter , require the vehicle be rewired with house wiring? DO it YOUR WAY ,(If you have a better/safer way) is the best method of keeping your family alive , not simple blind obedience. Do what lets you sleep at night,if RVIA is your way , great , if following the lead of the high end converters , and the rest of the planets vehicles , also great. FF | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 867 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 70.58.64.85 Rating: N/A |
Fred, it's not the "RVIA code," it's the National Electric Code. The RVIA is a trade association, not a code-making body. Nowhere in there does it say you need to use solid wire. Nor does anything we are talking about apply to chassis wiring. Where do you come up with these things? Have you even read the code? Lastly, none of the discussion above concerned the use of properly rated boat cable instead of NM, which is a whole different debate. It concerns using 15-amp wire and fixtures on 30-amp circuits, which is also prohibited by ABYC, Lloyds, and all the European standards bodies -- even on boats, where "boat cable" is legal. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| Len Silva (Lsilva)
Registered Member Username: Lsilva Post Number: 247 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 24.164.20.23 Rating: N/A |
The argument that we had years ago about "Boat cable" is now moot. I don't remember the type but I have seen boat cable with the UL label. Fred, Let's say that you put a duplex outlet on the end of a 10 gauge cable connected to a 30 amp breaker and put it in the bus. Now you connect a 25 foot, 18 gauge extension cord to the outlet and run it to the back of the bus where you plug in two electric heaters. Now let them run overnight so that the bus is nice and warm in the morning. What do you think is going to happen? Do you think that situation is unlikely with someone who knows nothing about electricity? You might also suppose that the bus is under construction and various flammable boxes, rags, rugs etc. are laying on top of the extension cord. You can only hope that the extension cord will "self fuse" and go open or short out and trip the breaker before the bus burns to the ground. (Message edited by lsilva on May 31, 2009) | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 909 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.162.76.54 Rating: N/A |
Pete - I wish I had my laptop, typing on this cellphone is a big PIA... To make it short.... The engine-ear guys are on-target, but get a bit too heady about this stuff. The NEC provides the information culminated from many "experts" in the field, and can usually provide the safest way to safely manage electrical wiring. The topic got a bit off-track, when it got involved with the possible electrical appliances you might be connecting, and their power draw..... You could follow code, and use 20 amp wire from the 20 amp fused box, to a 20 amp outlet...... But the mini-amp wall-wart that's feeding that mini-amp radio won't trip that 20 amp breaker when it shorts out, and it's power supply cord turns any nearby items into flames... So...... The notion (however well intentioned), that following code will prevent that from happening, is heady, at best. The NEC codes were designed to help electrical installers use the safest methods for their project. It did not include devices that the consumer would use..... That is... The wire from the service panel, the fusing and the outlet, should conform to the specifications provided, but it does not (for obvious reasons), include the devices plugged into said circuit OK... All that said (on a cellphone yet?), here's another viable suggestion that will meet "code", without having to rewire everything.... If you use a 110/120vac converter to power your inverter, you can use any power-pole extension cord! The converters will convert 110/120 to either 12 or 24 vdc. The converters are fused, so you'll be well protected! And..... You can wire it into your existing setup. You'll be feeding your present inverter with the same isolated dc voltage, without the hassles of all that you've read thus far... Howzatt? Bur please.... Buy a decent voltage presence tester? It will let you see if anything (like the power-pole or bus body) is energized. I found a KOA, and a few other "Good Sam's" and "FMC" camp-sites, with improperly wired pedestals. A few bucks spent for something as simple as that, can save a priceless life. Stay well; be safe. | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 809 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 76.216.69.160 Rating: N/A |
18 gauge extension cord to the outlet and run it to the back of the bus where you plug in two electric heaters. Now let them run overnight so that the bus is nice and warm in the morning. What do you think is going to happen? IT will probably melt as its turned on. 18G? Why not phone wire? Who uses 18G??? Most folks prefer a 12G or 10G extension cord for a power tool. Still trying to get why we would chose a house code in a vehicle , rather than use what works world wide in vehicles? FF | ||
| David Dulmage (Daved)
Registered Member Username: Daved Post Number: 250 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 142.46.199.30 Rating: N/A |
A converted coach is essentially an appliance that is connected to the power distribution grid. Circuit breakers at the campground power panel or at the campsite pedestal are intended to protect the wiring to that point. The coach, as the appliance, needs to meet the requirements for bonding, grounding, electrical isolation and for overcurrent protection in order to maintain protection against fire and electrical shock. Overall protection is the result of each of these components (i.e the campground power distribution arrangment, the individual devices within the coach and the coach itself) being part of a coordinated protection system. FWIW Dave Dulmage | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 868 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.27 Rating: N/A |
We don't get to choose, Fred -- it's the law. It is also not a "house code" -- the NEC is an enormous volume, and it covers almost everything on land. There is an entire chapter dedicated exclusively to RVs. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (Message edited by Sean on June 01, 2009) | ||
| Len Silva (Lsilva)
Registered Member Username: Lsilva Post Number: 249 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 24.164.20.23 Rating: N/A |
Fred, Perhaps I exaggerated a bit with 18 gauge, most folks might guess that that may be too small. 16 gauge however would still burn up and we are talking to an audience who says he knows nothing about electricity. I have seen a lot of orange extension cords as big around as your little finger that were only 16 gauge and the markings had long since worn off. Not so hard to imagine. | ||
| Peter River (Whitebus)
Registered Member Username: Whitebus Post Number: 89 Registered: 4-2009 Posted From: 204.62.111.51 Rating: N/A |
okay, my takeaway from all the post is that I have to do it right, follow the code, read, I get it. As soon as I get to a library, I will attempt to read and comprehend them. I also understand the desire to use a simple, off shelf components to achieve a "campable" RV ASAP, albeit may not be entirely "code compliant". Here is a more straightforward question. Please don't take this as a desire to skirt the law, or take the easy way out etc. So far, I see no post objecting to my installation of number of 12v batteries connected in parallel, to an inverter, which is plugged into an extension cord, to simple household appliances (toaster oven, fan, freezer, etc) Amperage is low, all heavy duty wires, I observed no wires getting excessively hot, and inverter's amp gauge never reached its maximum. Now, suppose I go to an RV park. taking the "shore power cord" from the RV park AC outlet, and connect it to a UL listed, safety fused, 3 stage BATTERY CHARGER, which is then connected to my series of batteries, which then happily provides power to the inverter, which then powers my AC appliances. would this be a legitimate, legal way to use the power from the RV park? just asking. ----- one additional point. it seems to me that many of you seem to be a professional electricians or equivalent. There may be more of me around, who are working from the view of common sense, such as : use a thick enough wires that doesn't heat up, make sure not one wire would shake loose in transit, be aware of faulty circuits when plugging into plugs you are not familiar with, insulate everything so there is no chance of shorting. I never even knew there were electrical codes covering RV's, so please understand that it's not a stubborn disrespect for the law/codes, but a process of understanding it and the reason why it's there. Thanks for all the advice, I am slowly learning (Message edited by WhiteBus on June 01, 2009) | ||
| Dave (Virtual)
Registered Member Username: Virtual Post Number: 7 Registered: 5-2009 Posted From: 67.186.253.131 Rating: N/A |
"I never even knew there were electrical codes covering RV's..." I hear you brother. It is nice to have good quality advice and the price is right. There is a lot to learn about coaches. | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 870 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.27 Rating: N/A |
Well, if the inverter is not permanently installed, and your appliances are not permanently installed, then, yes, what you suggest would work -- I'm not sure how safe this is, since I can't see it. However, if all those things are true, then there is also no reason why you could not simply run a 15-amp cord out the window and plug it into a 15 amp receptacle -- almost every pedestal for RV hookups has one. But where the problem comes in here is that if this is really a permanent arrangement, it really should be done with permanent wiring. So if even one of those items is fastened in place (including the inverter), or if you are not rolling up and storing those cords every time you move the bus, you ought to be doing it right. This is just as much a matter of your safety as it is a matter of codes, which is really what the codes are about anyway.
First, I'm not a professional electrician. Nor am I a plumber, a carpenter, or a motor vehicle designer. But just as I would never dream of putting, for example, an addition on a house, or adding a kitchen or bathroom, without first researching what, if any, laws and codes there are that cover such work (and just try putting an addition on most houses without getting a permit and following the codes, and see what happens), I also could not imagine building an RV from scratch or even changing all the tail lights to LEDs without first researching the laws and codes. Now, I happen to have a fair amount of experience with building fixed facilities, and that has caused me to have to become familiar with the more traditional building codes over the years, so perhaps I knew more about where to start. But the bottom line is that if you have the skills and know-how to build your own RV, then you have the skills to follow the codes that are already in place which govern that process. You will hear a lot of counter-arguments to this notion here and on other forums. Most run along the lines of what has already been said above, namely that if you use some common sense and try to be safe, that's sufficient. Many folks go further, and say that it's your own coach, and you should be able to do it however you want, without interference from government or anyone else. I will hasten to point out that each and every one of those arguments can be made about building almost anything, including your own house or your own nuclear power plant. But the reality is that our society determined long ago that some safety issues were so important that they could not be left to each and every person to decide for himself on an individual basis, and this is why we have codes. Really, the only difference is that if you started to build your own house someplace, without first having filed a permit with the local authorities (and the permit process is where they first get involved in code enforcement), eventually someone who cares will notice, and an inspector will show up and shut your job down until you comply. Whereas in the vast majority of jurisdictions, no one will pay any attention to what you are doing inside your bus. There is a similar problem with inside re-models done by homeowners. If it can't be seen from the outside, the code enforcement jurisdiction may never know, and more than one kitchen or bathroom has been botched by homeowners unwilling to learn how to do it right. Often these go undetected until either something goes horribly wrong, or the owner tries to sell the house and it fails the homeowner's inspection. With respect to any fixed and permanent structure, a code jurisdiction, should it discover such a violation, has the power to condemn the structure until the violations have been corrected. More than one home or business owner has been forced to rip out tens of thousands of dollars of work in this manner. Here again, enforcement in the RV community is lax to non-existent. The vast majority of RVs on the road are built to code by legitimate manufacturers. The number of custom conversions, either self-completed or done professionally, is such a tiny percentage of the total, that there is really no impetus for governments to step in and try to ramp up enforcement. Lots more people have to die before that becomes a priority for society. The bottom line is that, in a bus conversion, you can get away without following the codes. Just as you probably can get away with driving without a license, or stealing music on the Internet. But, in this case, you are only shortchanging yourself, because all of these codes are to enhance safety -- yours. Based on your own personal situation as you've described it, I stand behind my original recommendation, which is to get the Myers book and follow it. My first concern is your safety, and I believe that the way you have things set up right now is a step towards an accident waiting to happen. Do not be intimidated by the amount of debate we've had in this thread, much of which has little to do with your original question and which has come pretty far afield at times. I think you will find the book easy to follow and the required skills to be easy to acquire. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot. | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 768 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.211.184.66 Rating: N/A |
George Myers...where are U??? ? Very helpful book...sold mine,otherwise I would offer it to you. I think (well, my wife might argue the point) his book formerly was on the Articles of Interest on this site...could be mistaken (maturity, I suppose). ...and someone out there (on this board) has one he or she might just let you adopt. FWIW RCB | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 910 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.162.80.15 Rating: N/A |
Hey Pete? Re: "There may be more of me around, who are working from the view of common sense" Yes, there are. We know that, from the thousands of RVs and RV parks that burn to the ground daily. </sarcasm> I think you gathered exactly what you needed a few hundred posts back. By the way, they make real nice 30 and 50 amp extension cords for RV usage. I always had a 50 amp one, with adapters for any power pole connection. You'll find many parks with power poles so far away, that the average shoreline is too short to reach. With that in mind, using a short stubby (10' or less) shoreline (eventually wired to your breaker box), and an extension of the length needed, is the way many others have gone. When you can get close enough to the power pole, you don't need a big pile of cord wound up in a coil heating up, and wasting energy..... Again.... Check the RV forums for ideas, and compare notes with the "experts" here, for safety concerns. I always liked "George's" way of explaining "codes", since he dwells more on the technical aspects, and doesn't keep telling you "it's the LAW; break it and they're gonna' hang you after they cut off your testicles". I find that kinda' stuff silly, for lack of a more tasteless word. Re-read George's comments regarding wire size, etc, and how to determine the load you want to place and the wire/outlet capacity needed. That should give you a workable idea...... For your temporary intentions? I think you already knew what to do. But do yourself a favor, and get some electrical test equipment. You don't have to have a degree to use them, just common sense..... And you already proved that you have plenty of good common sense, because you're here, asking questions. Be safe; stay well. . | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 871 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.41 Rating: N/A |
If you have a detachable style shore cord (bulkhead connector on the coach, and a separate cord) and you want to carry a short cord like this, it's not a problem, as long as you also carry the required cord (25' or 30'). If you have it hard-wired, it must be a minimum of 25' in length if attached at the side, 30' if attached at the rear. If the point of attachment is more than 3' above ground, you must increase the cord length by any such amount (NEC 551.46-B). Since my good friend John apparently will argue any such code requirement if the safety reasoning is not presented, in this case it is precisely so that "extension cords" are not required to reach the vast majority of campground receptacles. Notwithstanding his claim that "a big pile of cord wound up in a coil [would be] heating up, and wasting energy," (which is true), adding an extension cord to a 10' shore cable just to reach a receptacle 20' away would actually heat up more, and would also present the possibility that a plug-to-receptacle connection would be lying on the ground unprotected from the weather, a much riskier situation. And, John, yes, RVs, and even RV parks, have indeed burned to the ground due to improper wiring. It doesn't need to be "thousands every day" -- it only needs to be one to make your life miserable: yours. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| Len Silva (Lsilva)
Registered Member Username: Lsilva Post Number: 250 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 24.164.20.23 Rating: N/A |
The same section that Sean quoted for the location and length of the supply cable also dictates the location of the pedestal in the campground. (NEC 551-76(a)) and if they are in compliance, there is no need for an extension cord. That's not to say that I haven't been in a lot of places that did not comply with the worst offenders being government owned parks. They sometimes try to share a pedestal between adjacent sites, requiring one used to drag hoses and cables under the coach and across the patio. | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 850 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 64.55.111.6 Rating: |
Pete, A couple of thoughts on your latest idea: Six or eight months ago, someone proposed a battery charger and inverters as a way of powering a whole coach, and eliminating what he called "crappy campground power." This suggestion included two rooftop airs, each run off of a seperate MSW inverter, and two other small inverters to run "computers, and other sensitive stuff" that won't run on a MSW inverter. I still haven't figured out how we're going to properly ground four inverters, and connect them to four panels? I won't even mention synchronizing the frequency... This idea had several problems with it, including but not limited to requiring a 400 AMP 12 Volt charger to put enough into the batteries for the four inverters to immediately take back out. Look in the archives under "What everybodys missing..." I'm sure you have noticed that your inverter gives off heat while it is working. The formula to calculate all types of electric resistance heat is 3.412 BTU/Watt. So, a 2000 Watt inverter will give off 6,824 BTU when fully loaded. A battery charger making enough 12VDC from 120VAC to run the inverter at full load will give off another 6,824 BTU. Now you see why none of us do that, AND you STILL need a proper 120VAC distribution panel, and a way to get your 120 in the bus... If inverters were perfect, you would need 150 Amps of 12VDC to make 15 Amps of 120VAC. In reality, you would need about 175 Amps of 12 Volt to make 15 Amps of 120 Volt. Equipment just doesn't run as well on Modified Sine Wave (MSW) inverters as it does on pure sine wave inverters, which cost more. And, you still need a way to get power into your bus. What's the simple safe solution? Buy a 25 foot 30 Amp shore cord,(#10/3) with a raw end where the female end would be, and connect it to a small sub-panel from a home store. You may have to purchase a seperate GROUND bar, and make certain the NEUTRAL BAR is NOT grounded! (Probably remove a green screw?)Properly connect your loads to the breakers in the panel, Black on the hot bar, white on the neutral, and green on the ground. Purchase a female 30 amp receptacle, box and cover. Connect this receptacle to the inverter output, same color connections, and locate it where it is convenient to the male end of your new shore cord when stored. Needless to say, plug the shore cord into the inverter socket while inverting, and plug it into the park pedestal when shoring. (Sean suggested this a couple of feet above!) Back to the drubbing... "Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection" is required in "...all branch circuits that supply 125 Volt single phase 15 and 20 ampere outlets installed in dwelling unit bedrooms..." This is section 210.12(B) of the 2002 edition of the National Electric Code, Fred. It is also section 550.25 (B) of the NEC, which pertains to "Bedrooms of Mobile Homes and Manufactured Homes," Fred. AFCIs are in the 1999 Code, Fred, the wording is slightly different. Section "551.1 Scope" reads "The provision of this article cover the electrical conductors installed within or on recreational vehicles, the conductors that connect recreational vehicles to a supply of electricity..." Fred. "Section 210.19 (2) Multioutlet Branch Circuits. Conductors of branch circuits supplying more than one receptacle for cord-and-plug connected portable loads shall have an ampacity of not less than the rating of the branch circuit," Fred. What this means is that the park circuit is 30 Amps, and 15 Amp receptacles and wire can't be legally (or safely) connected to it without 15 Amp circuit breakers being installed in a properly connected small panel in the bus. Skip's problem was caused by his electrician's failure to follow section 220.10, which says "The computed load of a feeder or service shall not be less than the sum of the loads on the branch circuit supplied." It goes on to describe "permanently connected" loads, but enough. The electrician actually violated the Code by not doing any load calculations, and then sizing accordingly, but guess what? Yep, when the circuit was over-loaded, the breaker tripped, and NOTHING BURNED. Kyle described a fire when a 15 amp plug was connected to a 20 Amp circuit, with [supposedly] more than 15 Amps load, but less than 20 Amps on it. Think what will happen when the 15 amp receptacle is connected to a 30 Amp breaker! The whole reason for this thread being so long is that one person apparently just doesn't understand what he suggested, which results in a couple of 15 Amp receptacles in a bus being protected only by the 30 Amp park pedestal breaker! Personally, I don't care if the shore cord is run in the bedroom window, or the front door, as long as it is properly connected to a properly installed distribution panel, with properly sized breakers, and a properly installed and grounded inverter! Needless to say, I would rather see it installed properly, but tripping over it isn't anywhere near as dangerous as having a fire start in the #14 wire! Catch 22 applies here too, I guess. (If you don't know you're not electrically qualified, you don't know not to post advice?) The original reply was dangerous then, it still is now, and I will admit that several of us were hoping for an acknowledgement, but it obviously just isn't going to happen..... I would like to thank several people for their COPIOUS support and research on this, AND thanks for the phone call of encouragement from an MC5 owner, who is more qualified than me. George | ||
| Peter River (Whitebus)
Registered Member Username: Whitebus Post Number: 94 Registered: 4-2009 Posted From: 208.54.14.50 Rating: N/A |
thanks George, that's simple enough for me to understand. I guess my conversion is the micro-mini version of what the traditional conversions look like. my 2kw inverter's load has never been "fully" used. Aside from the spike when the fridge motors start up, or when I am using power tools or heating water, my power usage is way below 10% of my inverter's capacity. I understand what is being said. if anything, you guys put the fear of god in me that I am not even going to try anything before I read everything I need to read, and even then I am going to do it with a help of an electrician. That being said, I think based on the number of people who are interested in bus conversion, along with the skoolies crowd and others, there certainly is a market for a "all-in-one doohickey" here (with plenty of instruction and warnings of course) | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 912 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.162.79.17 Rating: N/A |
George - Very, very good; excellent, actually! Even a loser like me understood all of it! That was exactly what I had been trying to get any one of you "experts" to do: explain things without the "law" aspect. Now..... regarding the following: "That being said, I think based on the number of people who are interested in bus conversion, along with the skoolies crowd and others, there certainly is a market for a "all-in-one doohickey" here (with plenty of instruction and warnings of course)" Why not set specific "code" issues aside, and explain how temporary arrangements can be used in the safest manner? There are enough "doohickies" made for on-site heavy-duty electrical power for contractors equipment. Why not offer input regarding the safe usage of any of the many that are offered? Sure, it's not what should be used for a permanent installation in a recreational vehicle, but if it's a "work in progress", it's not much different than a house under construction. I can clearly imagine a contractor's words, when he's told his extension cord does not conform to the standards set by the NEC, for permanent household wiring. That aside..... Sean - When you said that you "wouldn't care if the shoreline ran out of an open window" (as long as it was properly terminated), I fell off my chair. That's essentially what I (and others) would prefer to hear; realistic substance. If a guy's looking for a quick, temporary fix, tell him how to do it safely. We've got three miles of pixilated data; probably three times more than the NEC's explanation of "the rules". Pete still sounds confused, and remains without enough information to -safely- connect to a campground power pole as a temporary measure. I don't know how Pete will safely resolve the immediate problem! Do you? If a guy's hanging onto a rain gutter and asks me for his ladder..... I'm not going to start telling him about the OSHA laws regarding hard hats, and how he oughta' be wearing boots with heels, if he's going to use a ladder... Aside from that? Good show guys! Entertaining, if not educational as all hell. . | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 778 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.208.33.174 Rating: N/A |
....Hang on Snoopy, hang on!!!!! Thanx guys for a great evening of reading and....entertainment. RCB | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 500 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 71.55.197.237  Rating: N/A |
My Gosh guys,that be sounding complicated but even I understand that. Good work to you George and Sean. gomer | ||
| Cullen Newsom (Cullennewsom)
Registered Member Username: Cullennewsom Post Number: 52 Registered: 2-2009 Posted From: 98.201.161.214 Rating: N/A |
Quick question George, why would it be necessary to synchronize the 4 inverters? And why would there be any problem grounding them? Note that I am not endorsing the Rube Goldberg scheme you describe in its entirety. But rather in principle, I don't see any problem with having 4 independent inverters, unsynchronized so long as you aren't trying to parallel them for more current or voltage, or otherwise share loads across them. | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 878 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 72.171.0.138 Rating: N/A |
Cullen, FWIW, I don't see any reason to synchronize independent inverters. Nor do I see a problem grounding them. However, in order for this to be safe, each inverter must have a completely separate and independent distribution panel and its own, separate ground-to-neutral bond. Trying to tie independent inverter outputs together (say, by supplying separate bus bars in a single panel) is bound to lead to several problems, including multiply-bonded neutrals and possible neutral overload. The exception, of course, are inverters designed to be "stacked" and with control and synchronization circuitry to handle this. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 854 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 64.55.111.6 Rating: N/A |
Cullen, As usual, Sean has it, and IF done as he says, it WOULD work. But the poster of the original suggestion didn't think it out at all before he posted it in the first place, from either a cost or practicality point of view. The original suggestion was to "...use cheap inverters to improve power quality..." Cheap inverters has to mean Modified Sine Wave Type, which just by definition means less power quality than the Pure Sine Wave provided by the utility companies. Lets PLEASE stay out of utility power quality here, its just not the point. I personally don't feel that a MSW inverter can come close to POOR utility power. The original post proposed "several cheap inverters," and a battery charger and "house batteries you have to buy anyway," Objections surfaced, and it ended up with "...if you have a lightning strike nearby, the batteries will protect the 120VAC equipment." (The 400 Amp charger becomes the sacrifical lamb.) {Goat?} Now, another suggestion, instead of saying, "Gee, I never thought of it that way..." was to use a small inverter to power the TV, (no mention of gronding or overcurrent protection,) another to power the computer, and two others to run the two rooftops. So, we buy a FOUR HUNDRED AMP 12 VOLT charger, cabling to handle 400 Amps, some kind of changeover for the incoming 120VAC from shore to gen, and four inverters (at least two of them cheap=MSW) with four sets of distribution and fusing, all to initally "improve power quality."? What about wallet quality? Needless to say, the cost of doing that would be tremendous, and the mostly MSW power quality would be less than that provided by the campground. The solution, and kind of the "all in one doohickey," is a trace SW4024, or its equivalent in another brand, or voltage, and one distribution panel. NOW, WHY WON'T MULTIPLE INVERTERS WORK WELL AS SUGGESTED IN THE ORIGINAL POST? 1. Data is transmitted thru cables by varying voltage. High=yes, low=no, in simple terms. Proper data transmission needs clean voltage differential. 2. Coax cables do have the ground connected to the frame of the appliance they are connected to, right? 3. Read Sean's second paragraph again, then consider what is going to happen when the front cheap inverter which is powering the satellite dish converter box and the front TV, is out of phase with the back cheap inverter running the bedroom TV? (Remember the Coax Cables!) Well, the way I see it, with two cheap inverters which have NO frequency control, or synchronization, the input voltage difference between the two TVs will go from ZERO to 240 VOLTS, and all voltages inbetween, probably several times a minute! 3600 cycles in a minute, the difference between 120V+ and 120V- is 240V. I know, thats how we get 240V out of a 50 Amp shore service, the hots are always 180 Degrees out of phase, but there IS a neutral... Two TVs MIGHT work, I'm not going to try it with mine, but no way a computer in the rear will work with a printer, scanner, and router in the front, that won't even work on a MSW inverter. Depending upon how everything was built, there might be a little smoke, and then something quits working? Electronics that use the incoming 60Hz for timing? ? George | ||
| Skip N (Skip)
Registered Member Username: Skip Post Number: 50 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 67.142.165.30 Rating: N/A |
George 120V- and the hots are 180 out of phase at the pedistal ????????????????? Please explain since on a single phase to the transformer then inductive to get L2. Where does the negative get created. There is no chopping effect in induction. if there was I could get a negative on the meter between L2 and common. Laws of physics wave theory would have me believe that 2 sin waves 180 out would have the product of 0 amplitude not double the amplitude. thanks Skip (Message edited by skip on June 05, 2009) | ||
| Cullen Newsom (Cullennewsom)
Registered Member Username: Cullennewsom Post Number: 56 Registered: 2-2009 Posted From: 98.201.161.214 Rating: N/A |
George, Like I said, I wasn't endorsing his scheme. Sounds like what he wants is a Live UPS. Though I bet he doesn't want to pay for it. I don't see where you are coming from with the data transmission angle though. Both Ethernet and CAN, the two physical layers you are likely to see on a bus, use differential signaling. Both, therefore have very good noise rejection. Even RS232 at low baud rates and short cable lengths works well enough in noisy environs. Coax, also works very well when terminations are correct (keeps reflection low). That's what that braided shield is for. I still don't see how it matters. I understand just fine how to make two opposing phases of voltage into more voltage, and how to make a Theremin. And as far as MSW vs SW on computers and stuff goes. Most every electronic device is powered by a switching power supply. And switchers are quite good at tolerating weird power. It's big motors and transformers (inductive loads) that are less tolerant. CRT's maybe not, but I only own two CRT's and both are in Oscilloscopes. I don't use them to watch video (much). | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 856 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 64.55.111.6 Rating: N/A |
Cullen, We both understand what goes on, when it all works well. Also, we are looking at stuff powered out of one source. Its all in sync, and there's no difference of potential to ground between anything. You're exactly right about the UPS, and it sure would work that way, but the original post was supposed to be a cure for park power problems, including a comment about "you sure should see the strip of campground power." I just don't think the poster had ever seen a MSW strip... Now we take the satellite box and plug it into the receptacle on a non-frequency controlled cheap inverter, and connect the satellite box to the rear TV thats plugged into another inverter. Both units are connected by the shield on the cable. IF the power supplies on all connected things start out with an isolated primary transformer winding, and the shield isn't connected to anything chassis grounded, and the secondary isn't common to anything else either, it will work. Data over Ethernet cable would probably work OK, my concern is connecting multiple things together by inadvertently using the coax shield, when said things are powered by differing frequency and polarity. Many of the satellite receivers get their power from DC impressed on the coax, and it works well, but what happens when a VCR and 2 TVs are hooked up to the same coax, and they have an input voltage difference of up to 240? I will be the first to admit I haven't studied all of the connection schemes on all of this stuff. Also, if the center conductor is capacitor coupled into the electronics, it will block the DC, but a lot of AC by accident will be hard on it. I wouldn't have thought about this until the problem arose in my Internet Provider's building, which is over 100 years old. The wiring had been Mickey Moused by many, and a couple of receptacles had reversed polarity. They had data transmission problems they couldn't figure out, and had put a 3/2 prong adapter on the bottled water cooler to avoid getting shocked, because the ground wasn't grounded, and a hot wire was touching the plugmold. They cleared their data problem by filing off the tangs on the polarized plugs, and reversing them! Skip, You're reading too much into this, and lets stop and think about ALL 120/240 Volt 3 wire AC services. 120 Volts, line to neutral, from either hot leg. 240 Volts between the hot legs, right? How does it happen? Draw 3 dots in a vertical line, each one inch apart. Label the top one (L1), the middle Neutral, and the bottom (L2). Write 120V between L1 and Neutral, and 120V between Neutral and L2. When you add the two 120s, you get 240. The two hot legs, L1 & L2 are 180 degrees out of phase with each other. L1 is 120V positive at the same time that L2 is 120V negative. Although it has NOTHING to do with this discussion, the three legs in 3 phase are 120 degrees apart. The primary winding on a 120/240 transformer is indeed one winding, with only the ends connected. However, the secondary winding has a center tap. So, when you connect one end to the center tap, (halfway down the winding) you get half the secondary voltage, 120. Same thing when you connect the center tap to the other end, you get 120. When you connect the ends together, you get 240. Neutral current between the panel and the transformer is the difference between the current in L1 & L2. HTH, George (Message edited by george_mc6 on June 05, 2009) | ||
| Skip N (Skip)
Registered Member Username: Skip Post Number: 51 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 161.7.80.9 Rating: N/A |
Thanks George, I'll be the first to admit I am not a qualified narrow back But I also know that I can't put in a RV hook up on the house service until I get my common issues solved. 23 volts on common, amps= enough to blow a hole in my favorite clines Originally I thought no big deal as long as th RV was in compliance. I thought better to hold off until I find the real problem and fix it. Last weekend we did fix one of the underground legs that was bad. We traced it down and were within a foot. When we dug it up we found more wires (dead) from a prior system. I did put 2 30amp hook ups off the shop service. Long and short One must look at the whole not just the parts that make it up. Skip | ||
| Cullen Newsom (Cullennewsom)
Registered Member Username: Cullennewsom Post Number: 61 Registered: 2-2009 Posted From: 98.201.161.214 Rating: N/A |
George, you're right, we're in danger of derailing this thread. With regards to video equipment, it should have a blocking capacitor, but I will admit that I have seen some older sets that don't, well, didn't. Good riddance to them, I said at the time.
These devices shouldn't have made it past UL, or CE or even CCC certification. That's unsafe, probably illegal. That's not to say that it couldn't happen (anything can happen), just that it shouldn't. Good riddance to those devices, as well.
We shouldn't be surprised that those folks had problems, we should be surprised that they didn't burn their building down. | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 857 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 64.55.111.6 Rating: N/A |
Cullen, I'm surprised it didn't burn also, or that somebody didn't die of an apparent heart attack. 30-40 years ago, a "handyman" apparently installed wiremold on the high baseboard in seven offices in this old building. He ran Romex in the wall between the rooms, and up the wall to a properly installed subpanel in three of the offices. Three different tennants using the seven rooms on three different meters. The problems arose because he never connected a ground wire anywhere, just pushwired the hots & neutrals in the backs of the receptacles. And he wasn't careful of which wires went where, either! As there was no ground bond anywhere, when a hot wire chafed into contact with the wiremold, all of that room's grounds became hot, including the water cooler thru its grounding plug. They stopped the shocking water cooler by installing a 3/2 prong adapter, and not connecting the ground wire. When a second sharp edged piece of wiremold got into another wire and tripped a breaker, the landlord called me. The burned spot in the wiremold was obvious, but wait until you have tested 20 receptacles with a tester, and they're all open ground, and 2 are reversed polarity. It took two of us a day to de-burr all of the cut ends and re-pull new wire in the baseboards, and connect all of the grounds. Then we had to get with the ISP to change back everything they had done to overcome the original problem before we turned it back on. Skip, Current flow in the Neutral is normal, it is the unbalanced current between the hot legs. If you are using 30 Amps on one leg, and 20 Amps on the other, there will be 10 Amps flowing in the Neutral. On a 30 Amp RV service, all the current going out in the hot wire will come back on the neutral. If I read what you say correctly, and there is 23 Volts from the neutral to ground with everything connected, SOMETHING'S WRONG! It sounds like a high resistance connection in the neutral wire between where you are reading it, and the main panel. This is perfect testimony to why we all crab about proper ground/neutral bonding in buses. If its done right, the appliances don't work right after the problem arises, but if its wrong, the bus chassis gets 23 Volts, or more, which becomes exciting! Regards, George | ||
| David Dulmage (Daved)
Registered Member Username: Daved Post Number: 253 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 142.46.199.30 Rating: N/A |
Years ago my father in-law had a converted bus and he ran into problems with tripping the breakers in some campgrounds. His solution was to disconnect the ground on the input connector to the bus. There were a number of instances of people getting a shock when they were getting into the bus. I eventually took a look at the problem and found that the neutral had been connected to the frame of the bus. What had origianlly caused the problem was campground outlets where the neutral and hot conections had been incorrectly installed (reversed). My father in-law's simple solution stopped the breakers from tripping in the campground but could have been fatal. Once I isolated the neutral and reconnected the ground, there were no more problems. | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 860 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 64.55.111.6 Rating: N/A |
Dave, Thanks for the reinforcement! I don't know what it is about father-in-laws, but several years ago, mine wanted me to put in a new GFI in the bathroom in his 5th wheel, because it tripped with nothing plugged in it. "Had to be bad." Yeah, right! More like a melted element in the water heater, from being on with no water in it... Regards, George | ||
| Kasse Weikel (More_s_than_as)
Registered Member Username: More_s_than_as Post Number: 48 Registered: 4-2009 Posted From: 24.205.97.163 Rating: N/A |
i think EVERYONE missed the part about power STRIPS (previously known TO ME solely by the name of SURGE PROTECTORS about a decade ago). all power strips have a breaker/gfi rigged into them that trips at their rating (u know the little switch on them that most people use as an on/off and sometimes the switch glows on some models)...the highest you can find OTS are 15 amp power strips. fred i have always been a fan of your advice but i must agree with todd that if something did caused a ground to get loose on an appliance it could arc out and surge, possibly ruining your aplliance and starting a fire...however rair this may be. BISHOP!!! YAY I AGREE WITH YOU ON EVERYTHING YOU SAID HERE!!! see maybe we do have some common points, however religion isnt one of them (for now however). peter i sent u an email dave - i love real life examples thanks for it helps ppl to realize that those "rare" situations CAN happen to ANYONE...IMO of course | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 863 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 64.55.111.6 Rating: |
No Kasse, "EVERYONE" did not miss "power strips." This everyone certainly didn't, not to mention they were NOT in the original question, OR the unsafe reply! This has been well demonstated and clearly explained by many qualified people here. "all power strips have a breaker/gfi rigged into them..." You should have posted: All that I have seen... From your post, it is obvious that you have not seen very many, or any of those that were made during the first years with neither!!! The other thing which you gave NO thought to before posting, is what WILL happen when TWO 15A power strips are plugged into ONE 15A receptacle, or TWO seperate 15A receptacles, wired with #14 or #12 AWG wire? Well, as has been posted SEVERAL times before, AND WITH TWO 15A POWER STRIPS, you would have the real possibility of drawing 30 AMPS through wiring that can only carry 15. If by chance the two seperate receptacles were wired with #12AWG, then your suggestion would result in drawing 30 Amps through wire that is only capable of 20 before overheating. It was previously suggested to you to buy a conversion book, and unfortunately you chose not to, and then proudly proclaim "and I've done it without a book." I personally wouldn't proclaim my ignorance, and a suggestion is that you not post advice on dangerous subjects, ie propane and electricity, where you are not qualified. George | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 788 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.209.180.152 Rating: N/A |
...I'm prayin' for you Kasse! I'm not much into "religion" either(tapestry, tradition, etc)....but REAL HI on Redemption. RCB (Message edited by chuckllb on June 07, 2009) | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 789 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.209.180.152 Rating: N/A |
George, Sean, et al...this is a bit off thread, but. still on the subject of "electrical dummies"... I have an Isolator which just does not "seem" to work as it should (I understand they are sometimes "funny" that way)...so I am considering a Battery selection switch. Question: for 5 house batteries (marine deep cycle) and three group 31 start....what size (amperage) switch is "safe". I don't care to buy one every so often...prefer to do it right the first time. This has been an interesting thread from the beginning...just wonder if there would be some way to summarize the do's and don'ts....lots of "stuff" and facts throughout..at best easy to get sidetracked thinking about remarks above, etc... RCB | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 881 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 207.87.51.116 Rating: N/A |
Chuck, To properly answer this question, we also need to know the maximum amperage of the charge source. In most cases, that would be your engine alternator. Also, we'd need to know how you intend to wire the switch. To simply cross-connect between house and chassis systems, you could do with a SPST NO solenoid that closes on command or on alternator output; for the 270-amp Delco 50DN I have been recommending a 200-amp continuous, 600-amp inrush model from White-Rodgers. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 790 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.209.180.152 Rating: N/A |
Sean....I THINK I have a 350 amp Alt...can't tell because the ###'s on the plate do not show legibly. I have 4/0wire from/to both batt sets....roughly 8' run for both. Just don't care to "invest" in a 1000, 700,500 or whatever amp switch if it is not necessary. Thanx RCB | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 882 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 207.87.51.116 Rating: N/A |
Chuck, Forgive me, Crowns are not my strong suit -- I assume they are 12 volt coaches. 350 is a pretty big alternator (physically, as well as capacity-wise). Is this an oil-cooled unit? If the alternator is really 350 amps, you will need at least a 300-amp contactor to connect the house batteries. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| Kasse Weikel (More_s_than_as)
Registered Member Username: More_s_than_as Post Number: 52 Registered: 4-2009 Posted From: 32.155.141.217 Rating: N/A |
LOL!! George - you are correct power strips weren't mentioned in peters original post it was his VERY NEXT post that mentioned it. And yes I agree that if one plugged in 30 amps on one 15 amp cord that would be bad. However I do believe peter also said he is only pulling less that 2000 watts (18 amps on 120V). So instead of using the tone of your text to make me feel like an idiot maybe u coulda said "peter - just be sure to have only ONE powerstrip plugged into ONE extension cord each with equal amperage ratings. Considering most single ganger boxes have 2 outlets than if more power than 15 amps us required, for safety reasons, plug in a SECOND cord/strip combo (with a breaker built in) into the SECOND camp designated outlet." - although I'm sure u will find holes in this as well George. And didn't I say " all the ones I've seen"?!? Clearly I havnt seen them all just like you havnt seen all the colors of raw glass available or all the different sized vaulting poles that are made, or even how these products are produced, but I do! It's called CULTURAL RELATIVISM in anthropology...it's impossible fir one to know it all, that's why we ask questions here but the more I post the more I feel unwanted by certain ppl. That's not the intention of your "tone" is it? Cause ima nota go nowhere sucka! And BTW - I clearly stated that I was talking about OTS strips. I usually shop at home depot and even their cheapest ones have breakers. If you insist on implying that I don't know what I'm talking about, I'll take some pics for you because I just recently purchased some strips myself there. - ya know "tone" of text was one thing I was graded on in my english classes. Let's keep it positive eh? | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 867 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 64.55.111.6 Rating: N/A |
Kasse, This thread had over a hundred posts, and was well resolved before you posted. The original poster asked a question about running his appliances on campground power, and stated that he was not electrically qualified. It has been very well explained in this thread what the problems were with the suggestion to use 15 amp receptacles, WITHOUT ADDING PROPER OVERCURRENT PROTECTION AND GROUNDING. What you do not yet understand, is that there is not a power strip in this world that will protect small wiring in a wall that is connected to a large circuit breaker in a campground pedestal. The original dangerous response was to use an octopus to connect his loads, or multiple 15 Amp receptacles. (Actually what they sell is a POWER SQUID, but it doesn't matter.) It has NO circuit breaker. Park power is specifically mentioned in the original question, however, proper over-current protection, and inverter grounding aren't mentioned in the reply. This was explained in this thread over and over again, by several well-qualified people, and I just don't know how to do it in a still different way. There are several reasons why two or more extension cords should not be used to power an RV. These include, but aren't limited to problems with proper grounding, and over-current protection. Using a "dog bone" adapter to power an RV WITH ONE CORD, can be done safely, even though I am not enthusiastic about it. Your suggestion that "I should have told him to run two power bars and extension cords..." would violate several sections of the National Electric Code. As information, the NEC is published by the National Fire Protection Association. "Cultural relativism in anthropology" has NOTHING to do with this thread, neither does raw glass, or vaulting poles. In my opinion, these are nothing more than a smoke screen to draw attention from your original post. You say "Clearly I haven't seen them all..." then you offer "...to go buy new ones and send me a picture..." Then you mention being "graded on in my english class.." I guess they didn't grade you on capitalizing the first letter in a sentence, or spelling? The replies and explanations published here took a lot of research by a lot of people, me included, and we all went to the effort of checking our work for correctness, spelling and typographical errors. A couple of personal suggestions to you, as you mention my name, and then "...but the more I post, the more I feel unwanted by certain ppl." Several months ago, others here recommended you buy a conversion book, as we were just unable to answer all of the questions you posted. As I remember, you posted some un-qualified electrical advice at that time, and those corrections were explained to you by several people. Now you post that "...you have done it all without buying a book...?" Then you post "What everyone's missing..." The way I see it, that's an insult to the intelligence of all of us. Several of us know each other off-board, and are well aware of our qualifications, expertise, and experience. I am 61 years old, purchased my bus in 1986, and had a motorhome and a camper before that. All of that makes me nothing more than an AVERAGE BUS NUT. I have held an electrical contractor's license for 18 years, and have an associate degree in electronics. I feel this makes me qualified to speak on electrical issues. So, the first positive suggestion is to think before you post! Secondly, put the same amount of effort into your posts that most of us do, eg. capitalize the first letter in a sentence, use complete sentences, use the spell check, and use the edit function of this board to re-read your post, and correct the typos, before you finally make your post. "Cause ima nota go nowhere sucka!" takes NO talent, ability, or qualification to post, and will NOT increase your percieved popularity. You don't see that from the rest of us, so a positive suggestion is not to do that again! To further avoid negative replies, resist the urge to post where you're not qualified, and keep the thread on track. In other words, don't bring pole vaulting, or cultural relativity into a discussion about electricity. One last thing. We ALL get to read ALL of the posts, and can make up our own minds about what to do with the stuff posted. Poor advice on where to put a shower isn't fatal, neither is advice on Burning Man, except newbies should be aware of the harsh conditions. Poor electrical advice is dangerous, period. George (Message edited by george_mc6 on June 08, 2009) | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 868 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 64.55.111.6 Rating: N/A |
Chuck, Do you have a voltmeter, so we can get readings off your batteries, for a proper diagnosis? By doesn't "seem" to be working properly, do you mean that the house batteries don't charge with the engine running, or that you're having charging issues with the chassis? 3 starting batteries, plus a 350 Amp alternator makes me feel that it is a 12 Volt coach, but please tell us for sure. Then, if you have a meter, we can help you figure it out quickly. It will be MUCH easier to replace a failed isolator than to change over to a solenoid system. I REALLY like your comment on redemption, it puts us on the same page! Regards, George (Message edited by george_mc6 on June 08, 2009) | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 793 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.208.77.217 Rating: N/A |
Sean and George....yes I do have volt meter(s). I purchased the isolator several years ago and have hooked and unhooked it so may times it is a true veteran from over "diagnosis". Let me 'slpain: I have 3 Group 31s in place of two 8MHD which were originally in the coach. Two reasons... 1) weight (I hated moving the 8D's, even for checking cells)... 2) Expense. Three Group 31s give the same or close to..cranking amps...cheaper, lighter. These have always gone thru a 4/0 cable to a fuse and solenoid combination directly from the alternator, Same for the 5 house batteries. In other words, charging all batteries all the time the alternator is functioning, When hooked to the Isolator, the charging meter at the dash seldom registers any amperage while the engine is running....which means psychologically, for me at least, a bummer. I have always attached starts to the left connector, Alt to the middle and house to the right; and have reversed house and start.....same reading at the dash. Matters not how far down the road one goes (several hours of driving, no difference) Consequently, methinks to meself thinks I, why not just do a switch and be done with it? Ergo, the question. I am "servicing" the batteries, all of them, as we correspond, so logic says with everything "unhooked", now would be a good time to deal with it. All batteries are reading 12.65, prior to adding distilled water.. Many of the cells were down to the top of the plates. House batteries are 4+ years old and the Gp 31 are about two years in service. Never had problems with any of them, but clearly the house bats are dragging the starts down..... Two separate 10 amp solar cells with charge controllers. 2 Desulfators...one for each set as recommended by Batteries Plus. 12 volt system. HTH...and thanx RCB | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 869 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 64.55.111.6 Rating: N/A |
Chuck, Here's a couple of quick thoughts. Batteries reading 12.65 are FULLY charged. This means that both diodes in the seperator/isolator are not open. (They will either fail shorted or open.) If the diode in the chassis circuit side of the isolator fails-shorted, the load on the house side will discharge the chassis batts also. Essentially, that is all you will notice. If the chassis diode fails open, the house side will greatly over charge, because the voltage regulator doesn't 'see' any charge, and will send the alternator wide open, with the only place to go being the chassis batts. If the house diode opens, the batts won't charge from the engine, and if it shorts, the chassis batts would draw the house side down. Bottom line? If your chassis batts aren't going down while boondocking, the isolator is still OK. If house loads are draining the chassis batts, you need a new isolator. Replacing the isolator will be much easier than installing a solenoid, {and its control wiring!} Well charged regards, George | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 794 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.208.77.217 Rating: N/A |
Thanx, George...I think, no, I know...the problem is, thus far, psychological....no confidence in what is, or may be since the Isolator is not showing what I thought it should show. Is there a way to check it other than continuity between posts on the Isolator itself? As I stated earlier, never a problem, thus far. Just do not want to be "down the road" and need to replace all 8 at one time. Paranoid... RCB | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 871 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 64.55.111.6 Rating: N/A |
Morning Chuck, An isolator can be checked with a cheap multimeter. Put it on Ohms scale (maybe R X 1, or 200 Ohms?) Remembering there is battery voltage on the isolator, after disconnecting it, put the red meter lead on the middle terminal, the black lead on one side. Move the black to the other side. Then move the red from the middle to one of the sides, and put the black on the middle. A good isolator will read low Ohms with one lead on the middle, and the other on either side. When you change leads to the middle connection, NO reading should show on EITHER side. Pass=low reading from middle to either side, before/after lead swap to middle terminal, + no reading from middle to the sides, after red/black reversal. Another thought, easier, with engine running, and NO disconnect. Meter on a low voltage DC scale. Connect to middle and one side, voltage should read about 0.6 Volts DC, same middle to other side, about 6/10 Volt. Zero reading means a shorted diode, 14 Volts means an open diode. G | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 797 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 70.212.159.102 Rating: N/A |
Thanx again George...done all that any number of times over the years, but don't remember what the readings were along the way...so.. I'll do it again...as you outlined. Thanx RCB |
