| Author | Message | ||
| Jim Gibson (River_rat)
Registered Member Username: River_rat Post Number: 67 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 75.95.96.192 Rating: N/A |
Hi All. Im about to re-do my rear full size bed in my 04 to change the base, and also wanting to add about 100 gallons of extra "temporary" water storage. It occured to me I might kill 2 birds... I was looking for water tanks to do a normal in bay 2nd tank (I have 96 now) and saw a water bed ad. Has anyone ever built a 2x6 or 2x8 base under a rear bed, put in a liner and water bed matress, plumbed it, and then covered the "box" with a 3/4" plywood base to put a normal matress base/ storage on? It would be like a bladder tank, and the cover would keep the thing from sloshing too bad, especially if it only had a hundred gallons or so. At 54x75, a full size bed, 6" deep is 105 gallons. Keep in mind, this is just for occasional use when dry camping for extended periods and not the normal tank. Just a thought. Jim | ||
| Dave (Virtual)
Registered Member Username: Virtual Post Number: 20 Registered: 5-2009 Posted From: 67.186.253.131 Rating: N/A |
This was hashed out on one of the boards a month or two ago. The gist of it was, not a good idea. Points cited: Mattress is not drinking water safe. Bubbles inside are a nuisance. Mattress will eject during/after an impact (collision). Nowhere to sleep when the water is gone. With that said, somewhere there must be some portable water "bags" that are drinking water safe. With enough reinforcement they could be the trick. I don't think you'd want to sleep right on the bag. From my days with a waterbed, I can assure you they are cold and uncomfortable when first filled. Until you get all the dissolved air out of the mattress, the water sort of slaps the surface every time one moves. FWIW, HTH, AFAIK, YMMV, etc | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 1628 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 76.69.141.52  Rating: N/A |
Under the bed water tanks are a great way to freeze proof your coach. I'd be inclined to either find a suitable tank of the right dimensions, or build in your own to act as the bed base. Who has the links to the made at home plywood tanks? Build them that way, you maximize the capacity of the space. happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| Dave (Virtual)
Registered Member Username: Virtual Post Number: 22 Registered: 5-2009 Posted From: 67.186.253.131 Rating: N/A |
http://www.busnut.com/bbs/messages/12262/15918.html?1165275306 You might find a tank on Craigslist. Sometimes there are some real deals to be had. It might take some waiting, but you don't seem to be in a rush for it. | ||
| Keith Wood (Ft6)
Registered Member Username: Ft6 Post Number: 121 Registered: 8-2008 Posted From: 70.210.156.137 Rating: N/A |
The military uses "portable reservoirs," which are essentially a rubber bag that they fill with water. You could do the same thing with a waterbed AND a good purification system. The bad news is that if you want to use it as a bed, you need to heat the water, so you can't do both with a single bag. There are two major advantages of the "portable reservoir" over a "box" tank. First, you have greater resistance to damage from movement or impact. Second, if you leave the tank partially or wholly empty, you can use that space for other things. | ||
| Jim Gibson (River_rat)
Registered Member Username: River_rat Post Number: 68 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 75.95.96.192 Rating: N/A |
Dave - I was not planning on using it as a bed, but actually building it as a bed-base with 2x6's, well bolted sides, and a 3/4" plywood top with the bag in it, also well attached with lots of screws. After the box-with-bag is installed, I was thinking of building another storage compartment on top of it, with the bed matress on top. I am thinking this would keep the bag well captive on all 6 sides, and a simple water alarm between the bag and liner would tell if it ever leaked, which is unlikley if I protect it properly. Never thought about the drinking water safe thing, but I do know they make them as it is a common way for boats going offshore to use because they fit anywhere. They use them mostly for extra deisel capacity, but they are pretty custom I'm sure. I will look into the compatabliliy, but it might not be unreasonable to use that water just for showers - this is just a temp thing in case I find myself dry camping for a couple weeks. Buswarrier - what I am doing is not far from building a tank like you suggest, it just uses a bag IN the tank for saftey. I like the idea of glassing the box, although if I do a liner, and install a water alarm between the bag and liner, it might not even be necessary. Keep in mind, this is just for a temporary "extra" 100 gallons or so for rare occasion (Burning Man) and the normal 100 gallons is enough for most activities. As for a crash - if the bag were to be in a solid box as I described, it would likley stay in tact in all but in a pretty good size crash, and if the crash were to be severe enough to rip it loose, I have bigger problems than worrying about water in my coach! That is interesting though - having this or even a ridgid tank IN the coach is questionable anyway. In the bag scnerio it might acutally be safer because the bag would probably tear and release the water, whereas a rigid tank could come out as one, very large and heavy object. Food for thought! I'm still looking for a good deal on a standard issue water tank, but the idea of not using all that bay space is interesting. Here is a thought. If I were to use this just for a showers, it will not go through the water heater, but, if I were to install a water bed heater, fill the tank about a week before I need it, heat the water, it would probably stay "warm" for a week or more if I am in warm weather. I would not think about plugging it into the genny as they take days to heat as I recall from my water bed days. Good water bed story - when I was about 19 water beds first came out and were the rage. A bunch of us drove 2 hours, stood in line for hours, and bought one of the very first water beds. Get this - back then we were really dumb - we (I)set this bag on the floor with NO FRAME whatsoever, and filled it with 350 gallons of water. I actually slept on it, ice cold, no heat, and since it was the first one in town, dozens of people come to jump and play on this new contraption! This bed was left unsupported on the floor for 6 months before I realized that if you put a frame around it, the thing would not streached as tight as a drum on top! Really dumb! It never broke - amazing! Im not deterred yet... Thanks, Jim | ||
| Grant Thiessen (Busshawg)
Registered Member Username: Busshawg Post Number: 182 Registered: 10-2007 Posted From: 206.45.93.160  Rating: N/A |
I made my own back/grey tank for the rear cargo compartment. Plywood/fibreglass construction as mentioned above. If the tank had sealed the first time I would have been content with it. However after testing the tank it had a small leak. It took several trys and more and more resin. I would not recomend this procedure as water does funny things. Sanding the fibreglass to accomidate another layer of resin or cloth is quite a job. These tanks are quite heavy when done as well. | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 506 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 71.55.197.237  Rating: N/A |
Don't drink the water!!! who know who or what may be in there!!! Gomer | ||
| Tim Brandt (Timb)
Registered Member Username: Timb Post Number: 353 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.165.176.62  Rating: N/A |
Remember if you don't heat a waterbed you risk hypothermia....and conversly if you do heat it then it's going to grow things you don't want to drink. | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 858 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 64.55.111.6 Rating: N/A |
I'm going to side with the people who say "don't drink it," for two reasons. 1. Room temp water will grow lots of invisible little critters, who will delight in causing you distress in the lower tract, especially if you fill it from a well with no chlorine in it. 2. A water bed isn't made to be a potable water storage tank, so who knows what chemicals will leach out of the plastic? As long as you only shower with it, and flush it out of the rest of your system afterwards, with a little bleach, it ought to be ok. Montezuma | ||
| Cullen Newsom (Cullennewsom)
Registered Member Username: Cullennewsom Post Number: 63 Registered: 2-2009 Posted From: 98.201.161.214 Rating: N/A |
I have six 50 gallon military surplus water bags. I used these before I had a bus for camping. They aren't perfect. They leak a tiny amount. They were about $50 each when I bought them. But they made good water storage in the back of my pickup truck. I use them for extra capacity now. Install them first, fill them, then tie them down. Be careful, they could easily be used to hydraulic your compartment into bits of broken compartment.  | ||
| Wec4104 (Wec4104)
Registered Member Username: Wec4104 Post Number: 41 Registered: 7-2008 Posted From: 68.80.242.72 Rating: N/A |
I owned and slept on a water bed for about 6 years. I never had a heater. I just fully unzipped a cloth sleeping bag and put it on top of the bladder before putting on the lower sheet. It worked great and I never felt the cold from the water temp. (I did cut the zipper off entirely to prevent problems it might cause) Before a waterbed could be used for a bus application, you would probably have to install a bottom mounted drain. Normally these beds are filled from a top mounted opening and drained by siphoning. Not the most convenient approach for your bus. If you look on line, there are discussions on emergency preparedness sites that give further info about the use of waterbed water as potable water. (Message edited by wec4104 on June 05, 2009) | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 782 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.211.66.144 Rating: N/A |
We have three tanks under the bed, all FW. They do not support the Mattress/Springs, however are right up next to the bottom of the "springs. Access is easy by lifting foot of the bed frame, or the sides. either direction. (prop with a board which is carried with the tanks. AIRC, 95 gallons in that place...additional small tanks elswhere strategically placed. A rear heater is also in the same "cavity". All tanks are above floor, including black and gray...This all thanx to Fast Fred and his insight on this particular matter...years ago. Never problem one in that time (8 years). Would recommend to anyone. and near zero loss of space. As BW stated, no worry about freezeups..all FW plumbing goes to a manifold at the head end of the bed and under the floor to a heated bay...sort of...  Considered flex tanks, but for lots of reasons did not go with them. RCB | ||
| Wec4104 (Wec4104)
Registered Member Username: Wec4104 Post Number: 42 Registered: 7-2008 Posted From: 68.80.242.72 Rating: N/A |
One of the posts above cautioned about invisible little critters growing in a waterbed kept at room temperature. I guess I don't understand why a waterbed would be different from the normal fresh water tanks in this regard. Depending on the time of year, the bus holding tank temperature could higher, lower, or the same. The one difference I can think of is waterbed's ability to let in light. The waterbed I owned years ago was fairly translucent and would expose the water to light. This opens up the possibility that a UV light could be mounted in the bed compartment which would be highly effective in keeping the nasties from growing. (Message edited by wec4104 on June 05, 2009) | ||
| Tim Brandt (Timb)
Registered Member Username: Timb Post Number: 357 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.165.176.62 Rating: N/A |
Wec, I guess if we get to the point of adding UV to keep kritters from growing we have gotten past the point of just using a more economical inside the box solution For anybody not familiar with marine products there are many flexible bladder tanks available that can be used in odd locations. | ||
| Dave (Virtual)
Registered Member Username: Virtual Post Number: 23 Registered: 5-2009 Posted From: 67.186.253.131 Rating: N/A |
I think I'd look into the flexible bags myself. Please post a source if you find one that is reasonable (cheap). I'd like to be able to add a couple hundred gallons at times. http://www.fresnoalliance.com/wheelchairproject/ Check out this site for another idea. | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 859 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 64.55.111.6 Rating: N/A |
Wec, It isn't light that is the problem. A waterbed bladder isn't very strong or wrinkle resistant, and doesn't have a drain right at the low point, as mentioned above. So a little of the water from the first fill is left to mix with the second fill, etc. The waterbed stores sell small bottles of stuff to prevent growth in bladders, because they would get nasty over time. Unfortunately, UV lights destroy plastic, duct liner, motor wires, and other non-metallic things they shine on in Air Conditioning systems, and wouldn't work on a bladder. G | ||
| Wec4104 (Wec4104)
Registered Member Username: Wec4104 Post Number: 43 Registered: 7-2008 Posted From: 68.80.242.72 Rating: N/A |
A waterbed isn't very strong ... I dunno, I once found my friend's kids jumping on mine like a trampoline, and these kids weighed like 80 pounds. I also owned mine back when I was single and in my 20's and well.... I guess I won't go there. I'm not implying a waterbed would survive a bus crash, but my recollection says it would hold up to the jostle of my bus. Yes, I pointed out earlier the lack of the bottom drain. But I have to figure it would be possible to modify the bladder to add one. Also, while UV light does attack some materials, it is pretty much a prolonged process which requires extended exposure. I was thinking that you fill the tank, turn the UV light on for an hour or so, and turn it off. Once the tank nasties have been killed off, you are good until you refill, unless you are on an extended trip. Certainly not the amount of UV exposure that is going to destroy a bunch of stuff. Some backpackers use a product called a Steripen. It is a battery powered UV light that you drop into a water bottle if you are unsure of the water quality. A minute in a 16 oz bottle is all you need. I have to believe that putting a UV light next to a waterbed bladder would be a pretty minimal expense. I'm not saying using a waterbed for potable water storage is the greatest idea in the world. I'm just thinking that some of the obstacles mentioned are not insurmountable. | ||
| Jim Gibson (River_rat)
Registered Member Username: River_rat Post Number: 71 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 75.95.96.192 Rating: N/A |
I would certainly add a water treatment to any water tank, be it a bag or ridgid tank. It just helps keep the growth down. As for a drain, being a bladder, I dont know why you couldn't just put ont on top. The pump is self priming so it would pull out any initial air, they just move as the bag empties. I'm not sure I would want a fitting on the bottom as it would be more likley to leak. Fitting are another issue - it would need to have something other than the normal water bed fitting, I think? Maybe not - it might be possible to screw a hos end into it and put a little sealer on it. Cullen - those look like they are about the size of a normal 55 gal drum when filled - is that right? I have 2 55 poly drums now that are clean and for water, but I was hoping to not take the bay space, or drive my dually as a chase vehicle. Lots of really good points here, but I am still not sure why the bag would grow more than my poly water tank, especially if it never sees light. Seems that if they are both treated, they would be about the same. I do agree, don't drink the water! Jim | ||
| Cullen Newsom (Cullennewsom)
Registered Member Username: Cullennewsom Post Number: 65 Registered: 2-2009 Posted From: 98.201.161.214 Rating: N/A |
I've drawn water from the tops of my water bladders with a pump, it works fine, since they collapse. | ||
| Jim Wallin (Powderseeker01)
Registered Member Username: Powderseeker01 Post Number: 22 Registered: 10-2008 Posted From: 68.200.39.126  Rating: N/A |
Take a look at TankDepot.com Their tanks are inexpensive, they will locate the fittings wherever you like, and planning installation is easy. | ||
| Jim Gibson (River_rat)
Registered Member Username: River_rat Post Number: 75 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 75.95.96.192 Rating: N/A |
FDA drinking water safe bed bags - I went to one of the emergency drinking water sites and they said that "some" plastics are safe for storage, some not. I called one of the water bed super stores and the guy knew exactly what I was talking about and had a drinking water "safe" matress, super-single size (4'x7') with a liner and fill kit (the adapter) for $80.00 total. The materss will fill to 8" so will easily give me my 100 gallons. The safe water storage people say to use chlorine, not algesides or other treatments, and that the water is safe for 1 year. Not bad, although it is still going to be a shower water supply. My "box" for the bag will be less than 4' wide, I think there is 43" between the wheel wells, but that should be no problem. For $80.00, I figured I'd give it a try! Jim | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1503 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.110.9  Rating: N/A |
Make sure that the chlorine doesn't cause the vinyl to deteriorate over time. | ||
| Jim Gibson (River_rat)
Registered Member Username: River_rat Post Number: 80 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 75.95.96.192 Rating: N/A |
John, It's in pretty small quantities, like maybe a 1/2 or 1/4 cup, and the reason they recommend it is it is easy on the plastic. Thanks! Jim | ||
| Kasse Weikel (More_s_than_as)
Registered Member Username: More_s_than_as Post Number: 50 Registered: 4-2009 Posted From: 24.205.97.163 Rating: N/A |
HOLY MOLY JIM YOU DID IT!!!!! thats what im talking bout baby! you found your way to do what u want....and i actually think its a fabulous idea, i would prolly do the same but i already promised the rampps they could sleep under the bed when not in use for im hurting for storage. if you have a matress larger than 4x7 over that than structural integrity in the middle wont be an in issue i imagine, maybe a little sagging over time, perhaps use something thicker than the stanard 5/8 OSB for the top sheet of your box. or jsut put a piece of wood across the middle (at the 3 1/2 foot mark) when building your frame before you tack down the top sheet, couldnt hurt planning for the test of time eh? as u might know already jim but most ppl dont...tahoe is the number 1 regulated body of water in the WORLD. EVERY month they run chlorine through the system because lotsa houses in tahoe are old and have old pipes. i can certainly taste it for about a week after they do it but there is apparently no health defects that are caused by it that modern science can prove at this point. my brother matt used to work for alpha analytical in reno that got the contract to test the ground and water for the fallon lukimia case, remember that jim? my brother says ther small amounts of chlorine are fine, the city state and federal commissions say its fine, so i would not worry about using chlorine at all in SMALL amounts...i do believe its actually what is recommended. john - lol i love your picture. good point with chlorine/vinyl wear. maybe you should call that shop back jim and ask em about that real quick too eh? whgen i get back from NY jim we gotta hanng out, maybe i can putt my bike down there someday soon when u need an extra set of hands for some bus work. | ||
| Jim Gibson (River_rat)
Registered Member Username: River_rat Post Number: 83 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 75.95.96.192 Rating: N/A |
Dave - I love that pic of Patrick and his bus with the water on top! Guess the DOT rules in Mexico and south are a tad bit easier - I'd hate to be in front of that bus during a panic stop!! | ||
| Dave (Virtual)
Registered Member Username: Virtual Post Number: 29 Registered: 5-2009 Posted From: 67.186.253.131 Rating: N/A |
I'm not a burner so I don't pretend to know, but... I know I appreciate a shower every day. Probably two a day in the dust. I've thought about building some "tanks" one could put on the roof and take gravity showers. Here's my simple idea. Use a piece of 5 or 6" black pipe with plugs in the ends. Kind of like how you see plumbers use these pipes on the side of their trucks. When you arrive at camp, pump water up to the black pipe. Later, take a warm shower. For an outdoor shower some sort of pull valve would be simple and cheap. The water would be warm and the only time you'd need electricity is when you were refilling the pipe. I'd like to have a deck on my bus so I've thought about having one of these pipes on each side of the roof- between the curve of the roof and the deck. I guess you could have one on each side and full length if you needed it. Of course you wouldn't have any water in it while under way. If I was using it for "social favors" like you, I might put an additional small tank with a valve. Each user gets one small tank of water for his/her/its shower. Similar to a day tank on a boat. If I was going to have that use long term, I'd look into a water trailer. You could manage about 1000 gallons and keep a trailer under 10K total. If not, I guess I'd do whatever is necessary to get lots of water. I wonder about a solar still to semi-purify the gray water. Can you provide a brand and model for the "drinking-water safe" mattress? I'd like to do some research that direction. Perhaps you can snap a pic when you go see. | ||
| Wec4104 (Wec4104)
Registered Member Username: Wec4104 Post Number: 44 Registered: 7-2008 Posted From: 68.80.242.72 Rating: N/A |
Dave: I find your roof mounted pipe idea pretty interesting. I have been playing around with this in my head a bit. You mentioned using "black pipe" and wasn't sure if you were referring to the heavy iron pipe people call black pipe, or whether this was simply a refference to the color. I was wondering about black PVC pipe cause the stuff is cheaper, weighs less, and is easy to fabricate. Playing with some numbers, a pipe 6 inches in diameter is going to hold almost 1.5 gallons per linear foot. I think you were describing pipes that were somewhat permanently affixed to the roof. I was starting to wonder about a design that could be put in place at the destination. I'm picturing two 7 foot sections of PVC that can be stowed in the bays. They are made to thread together with a leak proof seal, making a 14 foot torpedo. (Almost 20 gallons). Using the curved roof of my 4104, it would be pretty easy to use some straps to configure a saddlebag approach to mount the tank. On the opposite side of the bus would be either a second torpedo, or a counterweight/anchor. Setting this up for an extended event like "the burn" wouldn't seem out of the question. | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Registered Member Username: Niles500 Post Number: 927 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 173.78.29.189 Rating: N/A |
My pool/jacuzzi is heated by my home built passive solar system, on the cheap - 20 - 20 ft. lengths of 1.25" ABS pipe with double 90's at each end going back and forth across white porch roof held down with plumbers strap. I have 12 jets so I used a Hayward 3.5 HP super pump - 3 way valve, 1 way for jets, 1 way for pool filter, 1 way for emptying pool - The valve is left on pool filter and a timer that runs the filters at times the sun is directly overhead - I also ran 1.5" PVC pipe up to the roof and 2" down - In the summer keeps it at about 99 degrees running 6 hours - FWIW | ||
| Dave (Virtual)
Registered Member Username: Virtual Post Number: 30 Registered: 5-2009 Posted From: 67.186.253.131 Rating: N/A |
"Dave: I find your roof mounted pipe idea pretty interesting." I meant plastic pipe. Black color for more heat gain but I don't know if any black plastic pipe is drinking-water safe. I suppose white PVC painted black would be an option. "almost 1.5 gallons per linear foot" I haven't worked it out but that sounds about right. "describing pipes that were somewhat permanently affixed to the roof" That's how I'd do it but there are many ways. I'd have them in the wedge between the bus roof and a rack. Perhaps a waterbed mattress would be the right combination. That's why I added to this thread. "made to thread together" I'd think about just running a hose out of each piece. I don't know if it is worth the hassle of threading together and fixing leaks, etc. According to your numbers that would be about 10 gal each 7' section. Maybe just right for one shower. One would want to run a test and see how long it takes one of those to heat up. It wouldn't cost all that much money. If the heat cycle time was too long, one could rig up something like Niles is using. I guess you'd use whatever most of the solar folks are using. Of course just building some solar panels would be another option. My offhand thoughts are to do it the simplest way possible, whatever that is. I think the "killer app" is the solar heat combined with gravity flow. My thought is it would take only a minute or two to fill with a power pump and then gravity flow water as long as it lasts. I may be over thinking this and I'm sure someone here must have already tried this. | ||
| Wec4104 (Wec4104)
Registered Member Username: Wec4104 Post Number: 45 Registered: 7-2008 Posted From: 68.80.242.72 Rating: N/A |
If you are just showering with it, and not drinking it, I would think the black PVC stuff should be fine. But I guess somewhere down the road there might be a reason you would want to use the preheated water for cooking or something, so if you want to keep it a potable water system it might be worth exploring more. It would be interesting to run a heating time test. I have also wondered about the possibility that the water could become too hot to shower with. The design should also include a means to let a little air into/out of the tank. If it is completely sealed, the gravity draining won't work as well. | ||
| Jim Gibson (River_rat)
Registered Member Username: River_rat Post Number: 93 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 75.95.96.192 Rating: N/A |
Black plastic pipe is a great idea - really simple. If I were to feed that system with my water bed, in a sealed system, once the tube were filled with a pump and an anti-siphon valve, one could use a button switch, 12V, outside by the shower to turn the water on. If it were a momentary switch someone would have to hold the button to get water which would prevent excessively long showers, and the tube would constantly be filled by the pump and waterbed supply. Interesting idea! Harbour freight has nice little 12VDC pumps for about $35 and they do not have integrated pressure-demand switches, perfect! I would think 6 feet of black pipe would be plenty, and might even get too hot sitting all day in the 100 heat. Should be fairly easy, and if I plan it right, I might be able to plumb it into my inside shower as well! It will make for some happy burners! Jim | ||
| Jim Gibson (River_rat)
Registered Member Username: River_rat Post Number: 94 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 75.95.96.192 Rating: N/A |
Dave, The matress is the "free-flow" type, just a bag with none of the fancy baffels etc. http://www.my-waterbed-shop.com/ Jim | ||
| Dave (Virtual)
Registered Member Username: Virtual Post Number: 36 Registered: 5-2009 Posted From: 67.186.253.131 Rating: N/A |
I'm a bit uncomfortable suggesting someone hold an electric switch while they shower. Someone else will tell us for sure, but I'm fairly 12V can kill you. I'm not sure how many amps it would take. I was thinking one of those pull shower valves like you see on beach showers. Pull the chain and water flows. I'll bet that's how FF would do it. I'm thinking put the pump between the mattress bladder and the roof tank. Have some sort of clear overflow hose out the top of the roof tank and back to the siphon on the mattress. When you see flow you're done. Six feet is apparently about 10 gallons. That's enough for one shower, maybe a couple. The question is how long it will take to reheat for all your friends. If its going to be too hot, you'll need a mixing valve and perhaps a cold tank up there too. I guess that makes sense anyway. Seems like it is getting more complicated but with testing I'm sure a simple system can be good enough. -- I don't see anything on those mattresses proposing to be "drinking-water safe." | ||
| Dave (Virtual)
Registered Member Username: Virtual Post Number: 37 Registered: 5-2009 Posted From: 67.186.253.131 Rating: N/A |
It would be possible to put an air charge on the tank for pressure showers. Say 30 psi. I'd be sure I knew what was a safe pressure for the pipe before I got crazy with it. Another thought on the pump switch- I'm sure there would be no shortage of people willing to watch and press the button at the right time. Somewhere someone mentioned standing in a pool for your shower and how it got a bit nasty by the time the last person got in. How about a simple shipping pallet in the wading pool. Stand on it and the gooey stuff would fall through. I'm thinking one with the slats about an inch apart. I'm not sure if fire is allowed, but you could burn it when you are done. Another option would be steel punch plate as long as it wasn't too slick. Maybe rubber coated. | ||
| Jim Gibson (River_rat)
Registered Member Username: River_rat Post Number: 97 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 75.95.96.192 Rating: N/A |
I like the idea of being the button pusher! I can sit im my bus and watch the shower activity, and when commanded, puch the button! Tough job, but somebody got to do it! Hell, I might end up on the "Dirty Jobs" show! Didn't realize 12V was dangerous - I will bot do it that way. Always error on the safe side. Having the water reheat is brobably not a big deal, and I am thinking a mixing valve will be necessary - it is getting a bit complicated. As for the 10 gallons per shower, it would need to be less - I only have 100 gallons allocated and will be there for 2 weeks. Maybe I just plumb it into my inside shower so it can be watched, I mean monitored... It would not be all that hard for me to put a 3-way valve just below the floor where the water feeds the shower fo I can switch back to normal when needed. I'm having a great time building my bus - what a great hobby! Jim | ||
| David Evans (Dmd)
Registered Member Username: Dmd Post Number: 327 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 173.68.141.145  Rating: N/A |
You could also just use a couple of 75' black 3/4 dia. garden hoses, altho they arent cheep, you could deploy and stow at will with no drag while driving. Have them plumbed into the hot water side with a ball valve and you could mix up a couple of good showers. | ||
| Wec4104 (Wec4104)
Registered Member Username: Wec4104 Post Number: 46 Registered: 7-2008 Posted From: 68.80.242.72 Rating: N/A |
Somebody check my math here, but I think we are looking at 43.6 feet of 3/4" (I.D.) hose to hold just a gallon of water. So we are looking at 436 feet of hose to match capacities with the 7' section of 6" pipe, or a std 10 gallon RV water heater. One question is "Where do you put the hose?" If you just lay the hose on the ground, the water pump has to fight 400+ feet of hose and lift it to the height of the shower valve. Plus the pump needs to run the whole time the shower is on. If the hose is roof mounted, gravity could be used to empty the hose, but there has to be some provision to allow air (or water) into the infeed side of the hose. | ||
| Bruce Henderson (Oonrahnjay)
Registered Member Username: Oonrahnjay Post Number: 430 Registered: 8-2004 Posted From: 69.143.57.28  Rating: N/A |
A few years ago, a friend of mine was rehabbing a house out in the country. All he had was light bulbs and water. After working all day, we'd want a shower. I laid first one and later two hoses (connected end-to-end) out in the sun. The hoses had water and a "squirter pistol" sprayer. You'd wet your head, shampoo up, and rinse that off. By then, you were pretty wet all over, so you'd soap up and scrub, then a final rinse. I never felt like I ran out of warm water (and, yes, it was often close to uncomfortably warm - or would have if there was more of it) -- it was a very "minimalist" adventure and you had to watch every drop you used but it was clear that it *did* work. I felt like I got clean and refreshed. Never checked on how soon it "re-warmed" but two or three people would use it over an evening and were happy. Probably wouldn't work for people who weren't really in touch with the idea, though. BH, NC USA | ||
| Dave (Virtual)
Registered Member Username: Virtual Post Number: 40 Registered: 5-2009 Posted From: 67.186.253.131 Rating: N/A |
Assuming 5.5" ID on the pipe, I get 1.23376 gal/ft. Assuming .75" ID on the hose, I get .022943 gal/ft. If my numbers are right, you would need 54' of hose to offset one foot of 5.5" ID pipe. Further, I get 8.64 gallons in 7' of 5.5" pipe. I think either compressed air or pressurized water is right for me. I don't think I want my system open on top. It seems quite a few folks are interested in this. When I get time I'll find a pipe and try to do some tests. I think that will be a few weeks away. | ||
| Tim Brandt (Timb)
Registered Member Username: Timb Post Number: 363 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.165.176.62 Rating: N/A |
Dave you might need 54 feet to equal a foot of 5.5 pipe but don't forget the increased surface area that hose would provide so faster heating | ||
| Jim Gibson (River_rat)
Registered Member Username: River_rat Post Number: 105 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 75.95.96.192 Rating: N/A |
Wec / Dave - I don't really think it is necessary to have all the water in a heated tank at one time. A small hose has a lot more surfave area than a 5"tube, so gathers more heat, more quickly. I agree with Bruce - a 50 foot gardne hose left in the sun will get plenty hot and would likley need a mixing valve to cool it off - especially if it is black. Most DIY pool solar heaters use about 1" tubing as I recall, not a large tube. Another large camp I was with last year had a 20 trailer fed by a water truck and had about a 50 foot loose coil on the roof for each of the 3 shower heads. No complaints from anybody, and since it had no sides, it was (sometimes) great entertainment! Sometime, you just did not want to be near it! I had my own shower in my trailer - much nicer! Jim | ||
| Dave (Virtual)
Registered Member Username: Virtual Post Number: 42 Registered: 5-2009 Posted From: 67.186.253.131 Rating: N/A |
I get the picture.  ~ Test the hose and decide how long you need to do what you want to do. Instead of running hoses end-to-end, I'd but those cheap 2- or 4-way splitters at HF and run them in parallel. Part of the reason I thought of the larger roof tank is to allow me to camp a couple of days without running an electric motor to pressurize the water. As we arrive at camp, a couple of minutes of pumping gets some water onto the roof. Super simple. Different strokes and all that. | ||
| Jim Gibson (River_rat)
Registered Member Username: River_rat Post Number: 114 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 75.95.96.192 Rating: N/A |
Dave, If you are talking BM, you need to be a bit carefull with an outside shower unless you have an extra 500 gallons, or more, of water as many people just don't understand how to conserve water and will go through a 100 gallons really fast! As this post moved along, I personally decided to just plumb it into my inside shower where I have a bit more control over the usage. Last year I was there 7 days and made it with 70 gallons, but that was really keeping an eye on it! Thats 10 gal day, and that includes washing dishes etc., always watching usage. This year I will have 200 gallons (with my water bed) and will be there 12-14 days. Drinking water comes from adding a bag or two of ice to one of those big 5 gallon water coolers - always fresh and cold! Jim |