| Author | Message | ||
| Quest (198.29.191.148) Rating: |
Well I have listened to Fast Fred and I beleive he is one that likes the use of "Boat Wire" in the wiring of a conversion. Do to a recent, and LAST MINUTE, trip I had to undertake recently, I am now fully in agreement that boat cable should be used in the conversion. I had to tow a vehicle and had very short notice but when I tried to connect the tow lights, they didnt work (I might mention that all the wiring had been restored a year or so ago and I took extra efforts to make them weather resistant). That problem was traced to poor ground. jumpering that problem, I had no tail lights, this was traced to the plug socket, that was recently replaced a few years ago, for one that had corroded from weather. I ended up cutting off the plug socket and wiring to the wires. Soldering was impossible as the wires had turned dark from weather also. These wires were under the original wire plastic. After testing the power on the wires good from the truck I then connected to my tow dolly. I had partially rewired this unit in the summer and all had worked at time, no reason to suspect a problem, right? WRONG!! The wiring joints from the factory used splices and as the wire aquired its surface layer of oxidation and stoped the flow of little electrics to the lights, of which was corrected. The boat wiring is coated to fend off these demons and keep those little electrics flowing, in spite of the arguments of solid over stranded. (A friend of mine told me that Stranded wire just by it construction, carries more electron flow (load) than solid based on surface area alone). The coating would/should let you solder wire that has been used for years where normal wire will oxidize and cannot be soldered, so what now, you gonna trust your pride and joy to compression connections? So if Fast F is raving the pluses of boat wire, I am now standing there raving with him. Any wire that can oxidize does not belong in a conversion, unless you want to cause yourself a lot of extra work. Learn from one who just learned a lesson in copper and its natural process of oxidation. Quest | ||
| FAST FRED (65.59.74.99) Rating: N/A |
My recomendation is to use ANCHOR brand wire , as its the best of the easily avilable marine stuff. IEEE45 has marine choices that are better but Really !! expensive. Although the crappy "RV code" will alow you to just wrap the wire end under a screw terminal, a correctly installed terminlal fitting is far better. Heck the "RV Crap Code " will let you put SLOID wire under a screw , something no vehicle has one for 100 years! MY way is to crimp the correct terminal on the wire with the Good ($45-$60)tool. I then use a large heavy roofing iron and just touch the terminal for a part of a second. The art is to get the solder in the terminal & wire to bond electrically , but NOT melt (and therefore stiffen ) the multi stranded wire that cost the big bucks. ONLY a big 4#ROOFING iron , (not a solder gun or iron )has the heat transfer to solder this quickly. I then use a bit of goo from the telephone guys ( the phone is a very fine wire , so corrosion is a BIG no no )who have the splice seal goo uninventoried . Final step is a wrap of 3X shrink tubing , with the internal glue. Georgey M. won't certify that I would be an approved moving house car mfg , BUT I do sleep well at night. To me cheap house crap should go in a stationary house, and stuff designed and manufactured for the severest vehicle service should go in a vehicle. The time , skill, material cost and effort required to do a good (for me) job will preclude this from EVER being RVIA or house trailer aproved. But any nuke submarine will salute as your RV goes by!! Do it Your Way!!So YOU can sleep easy. One other trick I used is to ONLY use #10 wiring,ac or dc ,reduces the cost as the dc wire can be bought in a bid spool and the Boat Cable for the AC side still uses all the same fittings. Of course the major entry wiring is #6 to the 240V AC pannel. Wrangler , sells uninsulated terminal ends . FAST FRED | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy) (66.190.119.82)
Rating: N/A |
A proper crimping tool, ($100 or more), proper sized, tinned, stranded, copper wire and a high quality terminal lug, all UL listed, (not Pep Boys crap) will eliminate corrosion in the connection regardless of whether on a boat or on an RV. The crimper actually causes the copper in the wire and the copper in the lug to "flow" into a solid mass of copper which is impossible to corrode within the connection. Tinned wire prevents corrosion of the conductor itself. Do not use the Pep Boys style crimper, wire or lugs. Plug in connectors for connecting the two cables together should always be coated with a anti-corrosive compound. Available in either spray can or a substance in a tube resembling Vaseline. Cheap bare copper automotive wire or bare copper solid wire is a no-no. Make sure the wire is UL listed. Some boat wire is not. I have built thousands of machines over the years, for both marine, industrial and automotive applications, using the above guidelines, and have never, to my knowledge, had a failed crimped connection. Richard | ||
| JackInKC (65.28.19.120) Rating: N/A |
OK Fred, so you recommend as follows: Use #10 solid copper for AC Use #10 stranded boat wire for DC, Anchor brand recommended. Can you describe the lugs and crimper in a little more detail? Thanks, Jack In KC | ||
| Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat) (68.7.217.217)
Rating: N/A |
I started to add my two cents' worth to this thread, and it turned into a whole webpage about crimps, complete with photos. So I started a brand new thread (at top of board) with the URL to the page, to use up my morning's time... (here's the URL anyway ) http://www.heartmagic.com/crimps.html Cheers Gary Stadler | ||
| Stephen Fessenden (Sffess) (65.130.18.152)
Rating: N/A |
For you guys in Florida, Skycraft Surplus in Orlando has MIL SPEC aircraft type wire in many colors and stripes much of it is tined or nickle plated. They have the charts to tell you which is which. (You cannot solder nickle plated wire.) They sell by the foot with better pricing for 100 ft, 500 ft etc. | ||
| Doug Dickinson (Dougd470) (206.71.103.89)
Rating: N/A |
I have to agree with the folks here that there IS a better way than what we are accustomed to seeing in the RV world. Some of it is actually covered in the National Electrical Code (NEC), which also covers marine applications, boat houses, and most anything else that uses a wire. I like using the code. it is a good Guide in an RV, but is not all-answering, all-knowing, or -always-correct, no matter how well thought out it usually is. One could write a large book about wiring techniques! Fred's methods, which I have to admit, EXCEED the code in several ways, require knowledge of the technique to execute properly. Proper soldering is an art form. You have to KNOW the differences in wire and connectors. Do yourself a favor and make sure you know and understand what you are doing in this regard before you get started. Some of the "old salts" here can help you. My $0.02 worth. | ||
| Scott Whitney (66.82.9.22) Rating: N/A |
Jack in KC, I don't think Fast Fred (or anybody on this thread, for that matter) recommends using #10 solid copper wire for anything in a vehicle. Personally, I am using #10 THHN stranded wire for both AC and DC. (Black, White, Green for AC, and Red & Black for DC) Scott | ||
| Tom Connolly (148.78.248.10)
Rating: N/A |
Although THHN stranded is better than solid it is still to brittle for applications that subject the wire to vibration and flexing. My personal preference is / has been SO cable / for 10 & 12ga just cut up Contractor extension cords. Tom C | ||
| Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat) (68.7.217.217)
Rating: N/A |
Tom, I got in a fairly nasty argument over this on the Mak board, and I am very happy to see that someone finally agrees!! THHN in any form (solid or stranded) was manufactured for buildings, not for mobile applications. It is made of extremely hardened copper, purposely hard-drawn and made that way, and side-by-side it will break a lot sooner than finely stranded annealed wire in a vibrating environment. You NEVER see THHN on an airplane or a Detroit-made vehicle for a good reason- it fails! And I agree that code or not, contractors' extension cords make fine wire for conversion purposes, as long as the gauge is properly suited for the job, because that stuff was purposely made to be bent a lot. Myself, I use wire from the electronics industry which is also many strands of fine, soft wire, UL listed (UL-1015, 105 degree C, 600 volts) It's perhaps a bit better than extension cord stuff, but not by much. The PVC jacket is a bit tougher too. I also put all of my wire inside that corrugated black plastic conduit/jacket tubing stuff that you see everywhere in automobiles these days, as a second line of defense against cuts and nicks. Bottom line is that probably none of us will see failures with either type of wire in our lifetimes, but 40-50 years later the THHN stuff is sure to cause it's owner some grief.... even with "proper" type wire that was OEM in my '62 Crown, I've had more than one circuit that didn't work due to wire broken at the crimp entrance from vibration fatigue. OK, that said, "foot in mouth" I'll admit, the main power cables from my genset to my breaker panel are 8ga stranded THHN...  Gary | ||
| Quest (198.29.191.148) Rating: N/A |
I've said it before and especially now, Contractors extension cord of any size does not belong in the walls of anything, especially an RV. It wasnt made for that, its not designed for that, and its not safe for that. It is used for a temporary extension of a wall outlet, ran across a floor and when the job is done in an hour or so, it is unpluggged and rolled up. Not left in a wall for 10-20 years to fail and burn the conversion down. Its bad Karma to tell people that something is good to use when it is not designed for it and shame on you for even suggesting it. Quest | ||
| Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat) (68.7.217.217)
Rating: N/A |
Quest, (do you have a real name?) Please find some hard data on how many conversion fires have been *caused* by use of contractors' cord for the wiring, and share it with us. Remember, I agreed with Tom only "as long as the gauge is properly suited for the job"... this means the the wire gauge must be heavy enough for the circuit that it does NOT get hot, even when enclosed within the walls of an RV. Granted, contractor's SO type cord is made for open air use. If enclosed it will get hotter than it normally would if carrying the same maximun current that it was designed for. But if properly derated, unless you can give me a specific (and good) reason (not that "It is used for a temporary...") that it will fail, I'll stick with Tom. The stuff is tough, it's insulation system is as good as any (perhaps better), and it won't fail as easily with vibration which COULD cause a fire given the right circumstances. That said, I still maintain that something like Fast Fred's boat wire, UL 1015 wire or better is the best choice, because it's rated at very high temerature, it's flexible, and it's intended for this "type" of service....Tom and I have been suggesting all along that THHN is not a good CHOICE, not because "it was not designed for RV conversions" but because it's physical characteristics make it tend to be a poorer CHOICE for RV conversions than other easily availible types of wire.. To date I have not seen even one roll of wire whose tag specifically says "designed for RV conversions" so we're left with CHOICES to make based on what works for us and others, and what doesn't. No shame here... Karma not withstanding, it's just my OPINION. No one HAS to follow it. You're welcome to yours too!!...Many conversions have contractor's cord within their walls. Many have THHN. Mine has UL1015, Fred's has boat wire. Until we see a report showing us that any of these routinely burn down RV's and the cause was the wiring TYPE, I guess we'll all stick with our OPINIONS.... Cheers Gary | ||
| Scott Whitney (66.82.9.19) Rating: N/A |
It's funny - in the couple years of following bus boards, I've noticed that nothing seems to get people more excited than wire type discussions. Maybe religion, politics and wire types have something in common? : ^ ) Scott P.S. Anyone want to discuss 3pt leveling vs. 4pt leveling? JK | ||
| Chuck Harris - PD4104 (207.172.11.147) Rating: N/A |
The person who originally converted my 4104 used industrial extension cord for the cable that went from a bulkhead connector to a marine "shore-off-gen" switch, and then to the breaker panel. This stuff is meant to be a semipermanent drop cable to milling machines, lathes, etc. It failed in a most miserable way. The rubber insulation that was around each of the very finely stranded conductors turned into a rock hard brittle substance that cracked and shorted. When I tore it out, I found 18 inch long sections of the cable that had been subject to very high heat from the short. If you put any kind of cable meant for extension cords into your walls, you are asking for BIG, BIG trouble! There is a second reason. The extension cord cable has 60C insulation. Wiring codes use 90C insulation for all their "ampacity" tables. You would need to derate #12 60C wire to 15A to be compliant. Now, on another note, all of the house wiring, in my bus, was done with #14 Romex. There have been no failures in that area. All the 12V wiring was done with #10 THHN stranded. Again, no failures. My 4104 was converted in March 1970. It has a lot of time, and miles on the Romex wire. If I were going to go the cheap route, I would again use Romex. The vibration in a bus is so small as to be insignificant. Do a good job and properly support all wires. If I were going to do the job over, (and it is time for rennovation) I would use marine cable... Just because... The cost of the wire isn't enough to make me try and skrimp there. -Chuck | ||
| Mike in GA (199.250.136.5)
Rating: N/A |
Just for the record GMC motorhomes, the neat looking ones manufactured between 1973-78, used Romex solid wire for a.c. I've owned one for five years and have been active with GMC groups and discussions. I have never heard of this solid wire becoming brittle and breaking. FWIW. | ||
| steve souza (Stevebnut) (24.91.90.28)
Rating: N/A |
I had a 1982 wiggle wall winnabagel. It had 14 gauge romex from the factory and had no problems. I have to agree with Mike and chuck that romex will not fail in bus conditions but i would recomend boat cable for over kill perposes. do it your way and have fun! Steve | ||
| George (12.85.2.154)
Rating: N/A |
Boat Cable, the Masochist's Choice Using boat cable or extension cords for the permanent wiring in a coach can give the masochist many opportunities to suffer and to be a pitiful object for others to see. Because of the soft insulation and flexibility of or these cables, they bend easily due the vibration of the coach and the insulation easily wares through to cause a fire or electrocution. Imagine the attention one can get after having all his work go up in flames. He then gets to be the victim of the horrid greedy uncaring insurance company that will declare "That since the cause of the fire was a result of not following the code, the fire was his fault and they do not pay for losses due to negligence." He can then be exploited by an attorney when he tries to sue the insurance company. Who would not agree with him that the reason for losing the case was a conspiracy between the attorney and the insurance company. For the true masochist, boat cable or cut down extension cords are the only way to go. | ||
| Geoff (64.1.1.144)
Rating: N/A |
That's a good one-- Romex "will fail" because the solid copper wire will/might break due to vibration, now George argues that if you use boat wire, the insulation will wear out BECAUSE of it's flexibility (flxiblity?). I used Anchor boat cable and I love it because it is so easy to string along bends, I can't foretell where it could possibly rub against something-- that is all in the manner of installation, and it had better be a sharp piece of metal to be able to wear through. The insurance argument is another topic, my experience with insurance companies is that they pay based on the incident, and don't try to weasel on technicalities. --Geoff '82 RTS CA | ||
| Will (12.162.39.146) Rating: N/A |
My, my we do have some very lively discussions on this board. Well, here is another log for the fire. My 1975 MH has romex cable and never a failure. I went to a comercial conversion place in Calif. where they make conversions for people who carry race cars etc and also convert the rigs for living. I watched them run wiring and asked questions about the cable they used. They told me it was just contractor extension cord cable. Well, not being otherwise enligtened, I used the same thing on my conversion many years ago. I have never had a problem. I think many are missing the point; your short circuit or breakdown will not burn your coach down if you have the proper fuse/circuit breaker for ever cable run. If you must err on the side of caution do it with too many circuit breakers. If a cable fails 20 years down the line, replace it. If you have proper support any cable will last a long time. I have all of my cable layed out on runners and surface wired like the traditional ships use. Everything is easy to get to. OBTW if you choose to use extension cord type cable, it it much cheaper to buy the 10 gauge as an extesion cord and cut off the ends than by the foot, go figure. Will. | ||
| Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat) (68.7.217.217)
Rating: N/A |
Hee hee... guess it's down to this- if you make it good enuff so the smoke don't get out, no matter what the hose is made of it'll be ok.... Gary | ||
| Ian Giffin (Admin) (64.228.55.85)
Rating: N/A |
Hi Will, It is a mistake to believe that "your short circuit or breakdown will not burn your coach down if you have the proper fuse/circuit breaker for every cable run". Trust me. Regards, Ian Giffin www.busnut.com | ||
| Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat) (68.7.217.217)
Rating: N/A |
Tru 'nuff, Ian !... For example: A tale of two systems... (1) I was changing out my entire dash and gauges last month for a nice newer one that I'd custom built, starting with a cluster chassis from a 15 year newer Crown (with a better viewing angle and lots more room for extra gauges). During the process I accidentally dropped the not-yet-bolted-down chassis an inch (while I was testing the lighting circuit thus battery= connected). The ignition keyswitch (+) terminal hit ground, and it let the smoke out VERY quickly. Now in this system (the old original bus wiring), everything IS protected, twice. Right at the battery there's a 100 amp "klixon" type self resetting breaker, and at the other end, a few feet from the dash, is a series of those little "shortstop" thermal self resetting breakers. The one for ignition is rated 20 amps. At the moment the short happened, my 100amp ammeter pegged itself so badly that I had to remove it and whack it to get it's needle unstuck and back around to zero. Fortunately it wasn't damaged. Luckily for me, I'd necked the ignition circuit down from the old 12 ga to 16ga wire a few inches from the switch. That few inches of wire fried so quickly that it burnt itself out and stopped the short. Smoke was thick and it caught on fire just for a moment until I blew it out (it was very small, like a candle) None of the breakers never tripped. So much for dual **thermal** breakers protecting things during shorts.... (2) My House batt system is totally separate. It starts with a FUSE rated 90 amps mounted directly at the battery bank. #4 wire runs from there, in a protected sheath, up to the 12 volt distribution panel (no, I don't have or want an inverter...) where it hits a bank of ever-so-expensive 20 and 30 amp Heinemann industrial-grade **magnetic** circuit breakers (like $50 each kinda stuff that I had leftover from a business project). From those, circuits run out to everywhere on the bus. Mostly #10 wire but a few #12's here and there. Just for grins, when I was installing some lighting at the rear of the bus, I deliberately held the (+) wire, *12 gauge* of the lighting circuit to ground. Before I even saw the tiniest of sparks, I heard a distinct "whack" up in the front of the bus, 45 feet of wiring away... the breaker had tripped. Perfect! So here are my thoughts on the outcome of these two stories: (1) As Ian says, no matter how well you think it might be fused, shorts can still occur that are capable of causing fires (2) If I had the choice, I'd go with MAGNETIC breakers everywhere possible, because they react almost instantly as opposed to thermal breakers that must take a while to heat up in order to open the circuit... and that "while" just might be too long... Oh yeah, while I'm on the subject of FIRES, someone on the MAK board recently posted the URL of a VERY GOOD PDF file from the Finnish Government, dealing with the bus fires they'd had during the year, the causes, and recommendations. It is such a good article that I've posted that file on my server, and here's the URL. I'd recommend that everyone read it. http://www.heartmagic.com/00BusFires.pdf I especially like their idea of putting little tiny doors on the engine compartment and other potentially dangerous fire areas, spring loaded that open IN, so you can just stick a fire extinguisher's snout thru the door, (and because of the door's position you're already pre-aimed at the danger zone without requiring too much thinking...) and blow the fire away without having to open the whole compartment up (thus letting in AIR and making things worse...) Good reading.... Cheers Gary | ||
| Fred H (216.128.136.177)
Rating: N/A |
Just another though. Look around you home. There are very few thing in your home that does not run of an extension cord. Most tosters and other electric thing don't have as good a cord as you get when you buy a good 100 foot #10 extension cord.If what soom are saying then no insurance co. would pay if your house burns down. Extension cords are the only cords that are osha. and u.l. approved, Boat wire is only Cost Guard approved. Fred H | ||
| Will (12.162.39.110) Rating: N/A |
Hello Gary S. Interesting story "A tale of two systems" I can understand why you had so much smoke and melting insulation. You have "a 100 amp "klixon" type self resetting breaker"; this is good only to protect 4 gauge or heavier battery cable. "The one [circuit breaker] for ignition is rated 20 amps."; this is good only to protect 14 gauge or heavier wire, so your original ignition wire was protected. However you said, "Luckily for me, I'd necked the ignition circuit down from the old 12 ga to 16ga wire a few inches from the switch." Maybe not so lucky, 16 gauge wire needs a 10 amp circuit breaker to protect it. Since your c.b. was 20 amp the wire had no protection and melted. If you had kept the 12 gauge wire the breaker would have tripped and no burn. "Necking down" is a sound practice if you use special wire called "fusible link", it has silicon insulation so that it will not burn anything while the wire melts. Use a wire 2 sizes smaller than the wire you want to protect; e.g. for a 10 ga. circuit use a 14 ga. fusible link. Hence my point: properly fused wire will not melt. If you decrease the size of the wire anywhere or install an appliance with small wire, it's considered a branch circuit and a proper size fuse must be installed to protect it. If you have a critical circuit you can use two (2) circuit breakers/fuses, one at each end; when overloaded one or both c.b.'s will trip depending on their delay characteristics curve. I like your idea of magnetic vs. thermal c.b.'s and thanks for url for the bus fires. Will | ||
| Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat) (68.7.217.217)
Rating: N/A |
Will, you're right about the fusible link style wire. Good idea. Do you have a source for the stuff? BTW, It's only conjecture at this point, but I'd guess that if my wire had been #12 all the way, I'd have had a nasty harness fire on my hands instead of a short hunk o' #16, because those thermal breakers take so darned long to operate, even under heavy overload conditions. A piece of 16 gauge wire that's only 6 inches long can easily take 30 amps continuously for at least 10-15 seconds and not burn...I've done this for years on my laser test bench... the point is that even my 20 amp thermal breakers were not blowing "quickly" enough when presented with a massive overload. Scary. Come to think about it, maybe the problem is that they (the original bus breakers) are now 40 years old and are no longer capable of properly doing their job.... hmmmm, I think I'll remove a few and test them on the bench supply. Maybe it's simply time for new ones! It'd take a lot of effort to convert the bus's origional wiring to magnetic breakers, but I'm thinking about it.... Cheers Gary | ||
| Will (12.162.39.110) Rating: N/A |
Hi Gary, Here is a source of fusible link wire of various sizes. http://www.noblewire.com/inventry/invtpg03.htm#p03g09r1687 Sorry, you'll have to copy and paste the url; this input screen is not wide enough. Sometimes you can find it at truck/auto jobbers; where the pros shop. The net is easier though. Will MC-7 Michigan | ||
| Quest (198.29.191.147) Rating: N/A |
Gary Stadler on your comment "Quest, (do you have a real name?)" Yes, I do. Next comment "Please find some hard data on how many conversion fires have been *caused* by use of contractors' cord for the wiring, and share it with us." I don't have to, usage recommendations are proudly printed on the package when you buy them. As In the UL tests, they are used open air, laying freely on the floor able to dissapate heat. I also beleive they mention to check the condition of the cable everytime before every use. That in itself, says it all. As for everyone having an opinion, yes we do, no argument there. Quest | ||
| Quest (198.29.191.148) Rating: N/A |
Thanks to all of you who added their comments to my string above. Through the years I have been an experimenter with wires and harnesses with cars and such so oxidation causing problems has always been "an enemy of the state". Pretty much the reason I have become in favor or tinned boat wire for use in the bus conversion. Hey, as far as flexibility goes, if it can handle the pounding of a boat hull on the waves, something a car or bus would never experience, it has to do well in a conversion. the wire controversy will continue as long as there are conversions, or until someone developes a standard (not likely) for conversionists to follow. I'm sure if a group sat together they could create a list of wire from top rated to least rated types for use on a bus. Personally, I think it would be a helluva idea, but then where would it be saved for future use. But I still don't like extension cord wire for in-wall use. (Don't Park it Next To Me!) LOL Your experiences and knowlege are appreciated, and I will keep the link for crimping and soldering, good job. thanks all Quest | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy) (66.190.119.82)
Rating: N/A |
Quest, be careful. Not all so called boat wire is tinned copper. Some is bare copper, and most is not listed by an internationally recognized testing laboratory such as CSA, UL or ETL or other testing laboratory. Richard. | ||
| '81 RTS (Toolman) (66.153.66.72)
Rating: N/A |
No extension cords here!! Just a few added words to ponder... A few months ago, I had an extension cord plugged into an outlet in my shop with nothing plugged into the end of it. No load, no problem, right? WRONG. The cord showed no signs of wear or fatigue, breaker is OK! The cord arc'd inside of the outer jacket and burned through. The cord continued to arc on the floor until I found it the following day. A hole was burned in the concrete about the size of a silver dollar and the breaker did not trip. This is one of the reasons for the change in the NEC to Arc Fault breakers in areas of the home. Luckily there were nothing burnable close... FWIW... NO EXTENSION CORDS HERE !!! Toolman | ||
| Quest (198.29.191.147) Rating: N/A |
Thanks Richard I am looking at West Marine and the wire I want is tinned copper. Actually I did not see any Bare copper wiring. Thanks for the heads up. 81'RTS, I had the exact same thing happen too. The cord was on the conrete of my garage and when I stepped inside, I smelled something and tracked it down to the extension cord. A real heavy duty one too. burnt clean through and my breaker did not trip either. Amazing what those little electric guys can do when they are bored, eh?? Thanks all Quest | ||
| Tom Connolly (148.78.247.10)
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Well A couple days ago and a number of posts earlier I Voiced My Opinion! "Although THHN stranded is better than solid it is still to brittle for applications that subject the wire to vibration and flexing. My personal preference is / has been SO cable / for 10 & 12ga just cut up Contractor extension cords." Since then I had to get out the handyman's favorite tool DUCT TAPE, I Put some over my mouth to keep me from saying anything here that would lead to additional debate. Now I have wrapped my head with the remainder of the roll to keep it from exploding and killing everyone within a mile of my keyboard! Before I continue let me take a moment to make the following legal statement, "The views expressed herein are only the opinions of the author, they are not intended to represent fact nor are they necessarily considered by most anything more than pure entertainment, these expressed views are not necessarily the views of the readers and are most-likely not those of the moderator." I said "Contractor Extension Cord". Maybe we shop in two different worlds, the cord I endorse and used is heavy duty! Comes in #10 and #12 gauges a green wire for ground, white for neutral and a black supply/feed wire, each of the fine twisted strand copper wires are insulated then they are wrapped wit strain relief cord and en cased in a nearly indestructible outer sheath that is able to withstand the suns heat, UV rays the rain & freezing weather, gas, oil, cars driving over it all day and the scrutiny of OSHA. It is not the $9 for 100' stuff that you light your Christmas lights up with! I think OSHA approval means that the extension cord is properly rated to facilitate the raising and lowering of heavy power tools from the roof of tall buildings. My cable ends have solid not split, heavy duty high temp terminal ends properly crimped and properly soldered, then placed under the screws on Hospital grade Devices and MIL SPEC breakers (Skycraft Surplus), If I live a hundred more years the installation is not going to fail or cause me any un-rest. If you choose to use THHN that wire goes is a conduit or raceway, If you like 12/2-WG solid copper Romex house wire you may want to consider UF the sheath is molded around all the wires and it is damp proof, and the rats will have to work harder to cause you a problem. If you are using devices that don't have these words stamped in the metal frame "Spec Grade" or if you are stuffing the wires in the spring loaded hole in the back of a device, you may as well just torch your coach now! Soldered connections Don't cause resistance/heat failures only Improperly Soldered connections do! Insurance Companies Represent their Insured, they may drop you after paying a claim that results from your negligence but they do pay the claim! Thanks Darryl for straitening everyone out! Imagine if everyone charged with negligence (ticketed) in an resulting accident was denied their claim! Chuck, A cold solder joint resulting from a bad solder job mostlikly caused your failures. If a torch was used the solder was cooked. You can relate soldering to welding a bad weld breaks, with a good weld the metal breaks and the weld lives. If your solder does not flow and bond to all the joined components you will have a failure. Soldering as simple as it may seem was a 4 month part of my 4 years of basic electronics training. Gary, Great idea with the Weller on the big lugs, obviously you, as I do, have the ability to achieve the proper temperature to flow the solder, Most think you light the headlamps up till she smokes, and probably don't even know that plumbing solder is for pipes and that electronic / electrical solders come in a smorgasbord of mixes, flux's and diameters. Fred? Coast Guard Approved may even be better than OSHA, Cause it's so good and strong you can use it in and around salt water for shore power and it will double as a tow cable in a pinch. I used it for my shore cable it has all 4 wires, feed/feed/neutral/ground, and it's Yellow so I can find it! Cord Chaffing? sure just take your knife to a CG or OSHA cord and see how hard you have to work to cut through to the wire! And that check your cord daily statement, I think maybe it's so you can find the place you drilled through or cut with your saw the last time the cord was uncoiled? Hey isn't UL the stamp of approval that goes on all those wake-up to the smell of caffeine pots that Consumer Reports about burning down homes? I second Stephen on Skycraft Surplus, East of downtown Orlando exit off I-4 @ fairbanks ave then south 100 yards on the East. Plan on staying awhile cause the have lot of great stuff! Scott, "3pt leveling vs. 4pt leveling?" 3pt has one less point! I'm gona keep the Duct Tape handy just in case! How boring it would be if we all thought alike! Good Night All, Tom C | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy) (66.190.119.82)
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Great post Tom. I am sure it took quite a while to organize your thoughts and present them so well. I have only one small question. What is OSHA approved cable, and have you ever actually seen the coast guard test procedure for testing cable? I have never seen a CG standard for cable and was not aware that it existed. I have built equipment to meeet CG requirements but was not aware that There was a CG standard for cable. Also, I have never heard of an OSHA listed/approved cable. Can you please enlighten us on that. Thanks, Richard | ||
| Doug Dickinson (Dougd470) (65.161.188.11)
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Re OSHA OSHA does NOT approve anything. A cable or any other device can be "OSHA compliant "but that is only as good as the manufacturers word. UL listing is only for a specific purpose which is determined by the manufacturer - not a "good for any use" situation. As such, what you have is NO assurance it is OK in an enclosed installation. While extension cord may work fine forever, we each make our own decisions. I like marine or aircraft parts because they are rated (supposed to be rated) for vibration environments. Lots of other stuff may work, but I want to have a coach that goes one better. Code doesn't cover every option. My $0.02 Doug St Louis '83 MC9 | ||
| Tom Connolly (148.78.247.10)
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You are right OSHA sets safety guidelines, Manufactures build to those guidelines then when sufficiently insulated from legal actions against them, by independent testing results they mark their products OSHA compliant! OSHA then recognizes those products as meeting the OSHA standard! Buy Military Surplus, even though we pay for it twice it's the best our money can buy! Tom | ||
| Doug Dickinson (Dougd470) (206.71.103.89)
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I think Tom has the idea straight! | ||
| Quest (198.29.191.147) Rating: N/A |
I enjoy this, the commaradere of friends "discussing" their favorite hobby. By the way, the extension cord that burnt up on me WAS the HD #10 wire, almost new too. Ain't putting that crap in my bus. But thanks for the thought. quest | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy) (66.190.119.82)
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Quest, are you sure someone did not run over it with a forklift or something like that? Richard | ||
| Quest (198.29.191.147) Rating: N/A |
LOL, I feel the eyes of the community on my back right now. I used this flex ext cord in my garage, I didnt want to have to worry about voltage drop when using it in the garage at home. I can't ever think of a time when the car could have run over it so In my eyes should never have failed. Alas, I no longer consider it safe to keep it plugged in when not in use. I shudder at the thought of this stuff in use (in walls) of a conversion. My gosh if it does the same thing, that bus is ashes. Scarry thought. Guess I sound pretty firm when voicing against it but I had a failure, with no known reason. I might add, when it failed, it had no load, just alive with 110vac. Strange huh? I've worked around electricity most of my career and I've seen those little electric guys do a lot of strange things. Seeing the aftermath of a failure of one type or another makes you think for sure. Usually the failures were much higher voltages, from 480v up, so seeing a 110v failure on my garage floor sends chills up my back. I am all for the "do it your way" concept but I will never be accused of not giving "fair warning" or at least additional information to base a knowledgable decision on. Ok, I started these strings and started a discussion I never expected, though I did enjoy reading it and especially the wire crimp/solder part. Now, I shall sit back and let the waters seek their levels, so to speak. Thank you all for sharing, we all need a hand now and then.(Places hand over big mouth) Quest | ||
| Michael J Ryan (Mjryan) (67.41.226.109)
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Quest, you said you have work around electricity most of your career, right, then why would you live in a house with romex in it. If you have work around electricity that long you must have seen a lot of this stuff fail. I know I have. I have a #10awg power cord (yellow) I have been using for ten plus years for my shore power on my house boat, no problems and the power cord on my home,9 years,(a Revcon motor home) stays out in all kind of weather, been run over kick around, run down the road all over Gods place but still keeps ticking. You can not judge a book because of one bad cover. MJ Soon to have a new home a 4104 yeah!! | ||
| Tom Connolly (148.78.247.10)
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Pondering here I can think of 2 additional reasons that a failure such as Quest's could be caused from, the most common is a rodent Squirrel / Rat or dog chewed through the cord, the 2nd is a rare manufacturing fault where one of the conductors is not at the same tension as the other two wires, at some point the loose wire has excessive slack that is forced through the machine that is braiding the cable, at this point a kink occurs and the forced assembly squeezes the insulation off one or more wires, at this junction a cable short is just waiting to be energized. Tom C | ||
| DaveD (207.236.51.229)
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Romex is a good example of a product which meets a particular application without being over-built. It's low cost, has the required insulation temperature and voltage characteristics,is easy to work with, and when installed and used correctly lasts almost indefinitely. | ||
| Chuck Harris - PD4104 (207.172.11.147) Rating: N/A |
Michael, Romex fail??? In what way? Back in the '40s when the center insulation was cambric, and asbestos, there were failures. But the stuff that has been made from the '60s onward seems to be rock solid. The outer sheath in the '60s stuff is a braided cambric material, but that only serves to keep the cable together, and add some abrasion resistance. I would surely like to know what you have seen, because I haven't encountered any problems.. -Chuck |
