| Author | Message | ||
| john degemis (Degemis)
Registered Member Username: Degemis Post Number: 68 Registered: 3-2008 Posted From: 68.113.38.62  Rating: N/A |
What is the best battery for the house side? | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 904 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.21  Rating: N/A |
That's like asking "what's the best car to buy?" or "where's the best place in the U.S. to live?" -- it's a highly subjective matter and there is no single "this one is the best" answer. A lot depends on how you will use your bus, how much battery capacity you intend to have, how much space you will dedicate to batteries and how that space is shaped, whether or not you want to check and water batteries weekly, how fast you need or want to be able to charge them, and a host of other factors. If you give us a little more information, I am sure you will get some recommendations. That said, we've also discussed this here many times, in great detail, so the archives are also full of information on this topic. For example, I did an extensive write-up in this thread: http://www.busnut.com/bbs/messages/11/27942.html just a few months ago. See also: http://www.busnut.com/bbs/messages/233/13139.html HTH, -Sean | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 850 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 76.216.70.120 Rating: N/A |
The cheapos from Sams Club are great to learn with , as Sam will replace them a few times , till the computer catches on and they wont. Surettes are the best ,for long term endurance, but ONLY after you go thru the learning and spend the bucks to properly monitor the set (about $150-$200) for the meter AND you have beefed up the charging setup to actually recharge properly. For the traveling folks all that is needed is tossing the coach V regulator and installing a good 3 or 4 stage V regulator from a marine source. For the boondockers that don't live in He**, (no 24/7 noisemaker) a noisemaker can frequently be fitted with a large bus alt and 3 stage regulator Trojans seem to be the choice of folks who only go camping a few months a year , and don't boondock for the entire time. FF | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 890 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 64.55.111.6 Rating: N/A |
"For the traveling folks all that is needed is tossing the coach V regulator and installing a good 3 or 4 stage V regulator from a marine source..." So if I've got that right, we start out on our coach with a diode seperator, or a solenoid, and the lights are NICE and BRIGHT, and as we drive and charge up, they DIM DOWN in FOUR STAGES? First stage is actually going to be hard on bulbs, and fourth is going to be in the low 13s, which is pretty dim. ? "...after you go thru the learning..." ? What SHOULD have been explained was the learning, in other words, keep them charged, and don't discharge them too deeply. That does mean buying more batteries than you want to, and giving up a little more space, but having them last, and having power while boondocking is priceless. "...noisemakers can be fitted with big alternators..." in the same post as four stage regulators??? Well, the charging problems that arise when two conventional regulators try to charge the same battery bank have been discussed here before, think what will happen when the inverter multi-stage reg is trying to charge the bank, along with an engine driven system! G | ||
| Tom Christman (Tchristman)
Registered Member Username: Tchristman Post Number: 101 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.218.33.156 Rating: N/A |
I personally like the Lifeline AGM (absorbed glass mat) batteries since they do not require watering, can be operated in any position (except upside down), don't gas so you can mount them inside, and you can charge them with as many amps as you can push in but not over volt them. Install them, check the tightness of the terminals once a year (you don't even have to clean them since the batteries don't gas), and that's it. They are about twice as expensive as standard wet batteries, but well worth it in my book. I have 2-8D's and hate the 156lbs ea they weigh. Next time, I'll switch to 6v batteries. Lifeline makes a 300amp 6v, if you have the 16" height available (or you can lay them down). Good Luck, TomC | ||
| Luvrbus (Luvrbus)
Registered Member Username: Luvrbus Post Number: 714 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 74.33.54.207 Rating: N/A |
I would not even condsider buying the 300 amp Lifeline.I went through 2 sets of 6 in less than 6 months because of faluty workmanship if you want to see a mess wait till one vents I am still cleaning my battery compartment from one.Back to the flooded Trojans now for me.According to most of the solar sites the flooded lead batteries are a better buy per amp hr price with Agm's costing 2.00 per amp hr and the flooded around .80 cents per amp hr. good luck | ||
| Roger Baughman (Roger)
Registered Member Username: Roger Post Number: 117 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 71.140.123.90  Rating: N/A |
This is a request for a Sean and/or anyone else who feels that they are qualified to come up with what I would call a BATTERY SELECTION CHART. For me and I think for maney others here, to determine the right battery is just beyound my abilities to understand all of the different aspects of doing this with any degree of accuracy. The ideal will probably not be as accurate as it should be, but I think could be a great help to a lot of us. It could elimiate a lot of questions on this subject. | ||
| john degemis (Degemis)
Registered Member Username: Degemis Post Number: 69 Registered: 3-2008 Posted From: 68.113.38.62 Rating: N/A |
Sean, I missed the April 14 post I did look for a battery post befor asking.I guese the old eyes are not what they once were. Any way I am reading things in todays post that ad to that thanks. I have a Xantrex RV 2512 GS Inverter Charger I know its a bit small but so is my budjet these days. It is hard to say how many amps I will need when this thing is done. I do want to start with a few good batteries and add as need grows. | ||
| Peter River (Whitebus)
Registered Member Username: Whitebus Post Number: 112 Registered: 4-2009 Posted From: 208.54.14.115  Rating: N/A |
I think for people on budget, you can't beat dumb walmart batteries strung together, trickle charged with some solar panels. I take mine out once a week, and for 5 days it gets topped up by the sun, and low usage during weekend takes it down to 11v, than I repeat. I don't even bother to connect it to the alternator anymore. I have heard from another group that Checkers Auto Parts have a policy that if a battery sits on shelf for more than 6 months, they are automatically considered "refurbished" in their system and then they sell them for $15, no matter what type. few people confirmed it, but I never tried. | ||
| Peter River (Whitebus)
Registered Member Username: Whitebus Post Number: 113 Registered: 4-2009 Posted From: 208.54.14.115 Rating: N/A |
oops, repeat post... (Message edited by WhiteBus on June 21, 2009) | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 929 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 208.54.200.112  Rating: N/A |
I doubt that WM batteries are any worse or better than any others at near the same cost. Batteries are like gasoline brands, they are all pretty much the same and most are made by a few companies. I like WM for simple reasons, they are reasonably priced, the replacement policy is second to none and they are available most of the places we travel. I've had good WM batteries and bad, just like any other brand. | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 830 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 70.210.221.197 Rating: N/A |
Gus I agrees with youse.....same goes for Sams. I find that most of them are made by Exide (from what I am told at the point of purchase) and there has, over the years, been quite a discussion on the boards about that company. My point of view has "evolved" since I have been in this hobby...from Interstate HD's down to el cheapo...just my way... and so far, I have no complaints. Main thing is..again my HO...take good care of them. I have 2 solar units...one for starts, one for house..each on a separate controller, desulfators for both sets, both hooked to the alternator and both charged by the genset. No problems so far. Redundancy has been just fine ...far as I know. No disagreement here with the "experts"....just my way. Some will chastise me here, but meantime, very few problems, if any...service them every couple of months, watching charge rates and voltage weekly or better. I am on SS...no other income, so $$ is important to me. My "degrees" in life have been mostly from Hardknocks U (a couple on paper from recognized Institutions, but none as valuable as HKU!) My advice...keep it all in perspective, BUT listen to those "in the know"....then Do it your way.  RCB | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 905 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.26 Rating: N/A |
Roger, that's a pretty tall order. The subject is really just too complex to try to distill it down to a chart, and there are too many variables. As I said in my first post, it's a highly subjective matter and depends on many factors, some of which I listed, to make blanket definitive statements without all the parameters (some folks did anyway, though...). In my April post, which I linked above, I did mention two web sites that are chock-full of helpful information that might assist someone in selecting batteries, and I will repeat them here: http://www.phrannie.org/battery.html http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm I also wrote up, "on the other board," some additional information that speaks to these comments: and
which might be of interest to all. I am reproducing that write-up here:
My apologies if some of that sounds out of context -- it's lifted from another thread, of course, whose originating question also involved what size and type of batteries would be best for house use. But most of the information is relevant. Also, in the two-day coach electrical systems seminar I sometimes deliver at bus rallies, I have 11 slides dedicated to batteries alone. We talked about that seminar here: http://www.busnut.com/bbs/messages/11/25517.html and there is a link in that thread to a downloadable copy of the slides in PDF format (although they will not make complete sense by themselves outside of the seminar). HTH, -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (Message edited by Sean on June 22, 2009) | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 906 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.26 Rating: N/A |
John, I would actually advise against that strategy. In order to maximize the life of your batteries, you want to have a "matched set" of batteries in the bank. That means all the same make, model, and size, but also age. In fact, it's best if all the batteries come from the same lot number, or at least close-together manufacture dates, when they are installed. So if you want to start out small, and increase capacity later, I would suggest instead that you start out with a cheap set -- you might even find working take-outs from a telecom installation or someone else's RV upgrade. Alternatively, many vendors such as Interstate sell "blems" for pennies on the dollar, with little or no warranty but in perfect working condition. Then when you are ready to increase to a larger capacity, get rid of the cheap ones and get a full matched set in the capacity you need. You will be money ahead in the long run, because otherwise your new batteries will die an early death from trying to prop up the older batteries in the bank. FWIW. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 854 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 76.216.70.120 Rating: N/A |
"So if I've got that right, we start out on our coach with a diode seperator, or a solenoid, and the lights are NICE and BRIGHT, and as we drive and charge up, they DIM DOWN in FOUR STAGES? First stage is actually going to be hard on bulbs, and fourth is going to be in the low 13s, which is pretty dim. ?" You don't have it right, You need to bone up on Marine aftermarket 3 or 4 stage V regulator basics. The 3 stage regulators are for deep cycle batt sets and are capable of increasing the AMPERAGE , during the initial stage of charging, the Max volts will be about 14.2 to 14.4 .IF the alternator is large enough. With a temperature sensor they are capable of recharging at the fastest RATE the batt set can accept.This heavy charge rate (at the same Voltage as a std crap auto/bus reg) is maintained till about 80% SOC , where most wet batt's start to charge slowly , no matter whose regulator is installed . An auto regulator is designed for replacing the 1% or 2% that is used in starting and to keep the electrics running , usually at 13.8 -14.2V.. Its brain allows the unit to charge at only about 50% of the amps needed in an hour . Works great in auto road service , but a 50% discharged RV battset will get half of what it needs in the first hour , half of the remaining need the next hour and so on . It takes 3 or 4 hours of operation to recharge a RV battset to the 80% full point where the charge rate slows. The marine units can cut the recharge tine by half or more , to get to that 80% full. The 4th stage regulators are for Equalizing , which is done at 15V, 1%soc with lights off. Most 4 stage have a sensor line to NOT equalize with lights on. The fancy projection style bulbs in a good Marine running light , or spotlight are $12.00 to well over $100, not 60c at NAPA , so this is part of the marine V regulator design. "low 13s, which is pretty dim." If you will troll the pages of any Granger catalog you will find the DC bulbs that fit in our campers are rated as 12V or 14V . The usual knowing camper uses the 14V in the running gear , as does most every vehicle , and the 12V units for reading lamps or galley lights , where they provide good lighting on battery power. Yes, running the bunk reading 12V lamps at 14V will shorten their lives. So folks that boondock will probably have a different internal bulb choice from the power cord campers with 120V chargers . Do it your way, FF | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 855 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 76.216.70.120 Rating: N/A |
"So if I've got that right, we start out on our coach with a diode seperator, or a solenoid, and the lights are NICE and BRIGHT, and as we drive and charge up, they DIM DOWN in FOUR STAGES? First stage is actually going to be hard on bulbs, and fourth is going to be in the low 13s, which is pretty dim. ?" You don't have it right, You need to bone up on Marine aftermarket 3 or 4 stage V regulator basics. The 3 stage regulators are for deep cycle batt sets and are capable of increasing the AMPERAGE , during the initial stage of charging, the Max volts will be about 14.2 to 14.4 .IF the alternator is large enough. With a temperature sensor they are capable of recharging at the fastest RATE the batt set can accept.This heavy charge rate (at the same Voltage as a std crap auto/bus reg) is maintained till about 80% SOC , where most wet batt's start to charge slowly , no matter whose regulator is installed . An auto regulator is designed for replacing the 1% or 2% that is used in starting and to keep the electrics running , usually at 13.8 -14.2V.. Its brain allows the unit to charge at only about 50% of the amps needed in an hour . Works great in auto road service , but a 50% discharged RV battset will get half of what it needs in the first hour , half of the remaining need the next hour and so on . It takes 3 or 4 hours of operation to recharge a RV battset to the 80% full point where the charge rate slows. The marine units can cut the recharge tine by half or more , to get to that 80% full. The 4th stage regulators are for Equalizing , which is done at 15V, 1%soc with lights off. Most 4 stage have a sensor line to NOT equalize with lights on. The fancy projection style bulbs in a good Marine running light , or spotlight are $12.00 to well over $100, not 60c at NAPA , so this is part of the marine V regulator design. "low 13s, which is pretty dim." If you will troll the pages of any Granger catalog you will find the DC bulbs that fit in our campers are rated as 12V or 14V . The usual knowing camper uses the 14V in the running lamps , as does most every vehicle , and the 12V rated units for reading lamps or galley lights , where they provide good lighting on battery power. Yes, running the bunk reading 12V lamps at 14V will shorten their lives. So folks that boondock will probably have a different internal bulb choice from the power cord campers with 120V chargers . Do it your way, FF | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 930 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 208.54.200.12 Rating: N/A |
John, Back to your original question. I think you now know the answer is - "it all depends"! There is no answer until you know your power requirement. You also probably now know what information overload is, or rather, what data overload is!! | ||
| Chuck Newman (Chuck_newman)
Registered Member Username: Chuck_newman Post Number: 373 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 99.0.41.3  Rating: N/A |
Gus, please email me. I have a couple mattress questions for you. Thanks, Chuck | ||
| Roger Baughman (Roger)
Registered Member Username: Roger Post Number: 118 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 69.232.70.176 Rating: N/A |
Sean, I was not thinking of a chart that would take in to account everyting that you would consider important. Just something that the average bus nut could use to get him in the ball park. This subject is so complex and varaiible, that is extreemly difficult to wade through all of the information and make some good decissions from the information. If you still think this is not a good idea, that's fine, I JUST THOUGHT IT WOULD HELP A LOT OF US. Roger | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 907 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 69.19.14.12 Rating: N/A |
Roger, I don't disagree. I'm just saying it's a huge undertaking -- not something that I am up to (at least for now). I've tried, instead, to put some good pointers to information out there supplied by others, and also some stuff that I have written up in the past. I'm certainly willing to help anyone with battery selection on a case-by-case basis -- it is definitely a complex problem space. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 859 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 76.216.70.120  Rating: N/A |
"Just something that the average bus nut could use to get him in the ball park. This subject is so complex and varaiible, that is extreemly difficult to wade through all of the information and make some good decissions from the information". Mostly because folks Desirements vary so much. The problem is for most folks it takes a bunch of dead batteries and the hassle of carting hundred pounds of old lead to make them open their wallets for INFORMATION. The information REQUIRED is how your house set is actually doing at all times.. An E-meter , a Trace Link or a Bogardengineering.com style SOC meter is required for on board instant monitoring. Putting out $150 to $200 for most folks is not the first camping expense they think of , tho it should be if more than campsite to campsite is required. FF | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 933 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 208.54.200.89 Rating: N/A |
Determining proper house batteries is not a complex problem but it can be made into one. It is, however, not possible to do properly unless one knows the power requirements first. | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 860 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 76.216.70.120 Rating: N/A |
It is, however, not possible to do properly unless one knows the power requirements first. For Sure!! But many folks are doing converting with out a good idea of WHAT the coach will be required to do. Only after they actually use the camper do they find a lifestyle that suits them best. A never ending problem , FF | ||
| Peter E (Sdibaja)
Registered Member Username: Sdibaja Post Number: 299 Registered: 5-2002 Posted From: 201.171.245.34  Rating: N/A |
There is no need to re invent the wheel Sean. FF said it well. The boating world has been in tune since the very beginning. I suggest that you review the west marine "west advisor" site. most anything you may wish to know about electrical and other off grid power sources and management is there. these are people who actually do it and have been since before we were born. http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/WestAdvisorListView?storeId=10001&langId=-1&catalogId=10001 oops, forgot the link (Message edited by sdibaja on June 24, 2009) | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 908 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.15 Rating: N/A |
Peter, Not sure I understand why you are directing this comment at me -- I'm not the one asking questions here. I will also point out, in the vein of "not reinventing the wheel," that I have clearly cited several resources that are available to folks to help them with these issues. BTW, I disagree with your contention that the West Advisor is the best place to find this information -- even in a marine context. I am no stranger to the boating world, and I can assure you that confusion reigns in that community regarding electrical systems as well, and there remains considerable disagreement even among established authors about "best practice." (On a separate but related note, West Marine itself has little respect in the marine community, and they are decidedly a small-boat chandlery. I tend to buy from Defender or Fisheries Supply.) I will also mention that not all marine-oriented advice is relevant, applicable, or appropriate in a non-marine environment. For example, electrical safety standards are quite different between the marine environment and the land environment, for many good reasons which are not really relevant in this thread. So I would caution you about suggesting the West Advisor (or any other marine source, such as Nigel Calder's excellent books) to bus converters as a reliable resource -- some of the guidance therein would be dangerous and illegal in a bus. FWIW. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| David Dulmage (Daved)
Registered Member Username: Daved Post Number: 255 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 142.46.199.30  Rating: N/A |
I know this may not be the best solution in terms of performance and longevity of batteries, but it has worked well for me over the years. I have 4 12V "Deep Cycle" Marine batteries connected in parallel. I have had to replace only one of them which failed prematurely, but the others have served me well for more than 8 seasons. I use these batteries because: - They are relatively cheap - I am able to get them just about anywhere from a national retail store - They seem to last well with little maintenance I do keep a check on the electolyte levels and I try to avoid repeated deep discharges. My main concern is to have something that is reliable and is easy to get a replacement for if they fail while travelling. Works well for me. DaveD | ||
| Jerry Liebler (Jerry_liebler)
Registered Member Username: Jerry_liebler Post Number: 340 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 98.19.232.150 Rating: N/A |
John, Before you get to choosing your house battery you'll need to pick the house DC voltage. Since you have a relatively new Prevost, the bus itself has a 24 volt system. Since you have a 24 volt bus you have the option of choosing a 24 volt house system. A 24 volt house system allows you to use larger inverters and quite likely run air conditioners off of the inverter while driving, taking advantage of the 7000+ watts the bus alternator can produce. But some things. like fantastic fans are only available in 12 volt so a 24 volt house system often also needs some 12 volts which may be provided by an "equaliser" or a 120 volt to 12 volt "converter" as in many stick and staples. Or you can go with a 12 volt house system which severely limits the DC power you can use while driving. I strongly prefer the 24 volt option. The next decision regards the maintainence you are willing to commit to. The choice is between sealed (AGM) batterys and "flooded" lead acid batterys. AGMs will cost 2 1/2+ times what flooded will cost. But AGMs require essentially no maintenance and no provision for access while flooded must be checked for water level about monthly and must be mounted to provide access for these checks. The you'll need to choose the capacity of your house bank and go shopping. Some things I've observed include that in "flooded" batteries the T105 offers the best cost for a given level of performance and the L16 uses the least floor space per amp hour. In AGM deep cycle battery the best value is obtained by using 12 volt 100 amp hour units, larger or smaller units cost more per amp hour. Regards Jerry 4107 1120 | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 832 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.210.175.45 Rating: N/A |
Good post, Jerry...good to see you "back". RCB | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 861 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 76.216.70.120 Rating: N/A |
"The next decision regards the maintainence you are willing to commit to. The choice is between sealed (AGM) batterys and "flooded" lead acid batterys. AGMs will cost 2 1/2+ times what flooded will cost. But AGMs require essentially no maintenance and no provision for access while flooded must be checked for water level about monthly and must be mounted to provide access for these checks. " All this is true , BUT it misses the real downfall for using AGM's in a bus camper. The AGM must be fully recharged to 100% each and every time or they too will sulphate and loose capacity even more rapidly than cheap old wet batts. 100% recharged might work with shore power or huge solar , but is not a realistic requirement for boat or bus campers. Who mostly cycle between 50%and 80% soc. FF | ||
| Jerry Liebler (Jerry_liebler)
Registered Member Username: Jerry_liebler Post Number: 341 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 98.19.232.150 Rating: N/A |
Regardless of the type of battery or size of the battery bank, keeping them fully charged whenever possible is most important to obtain greatest life from the battery. As Fast Fred points out all lead acid batterys sulfate and loose capacity whenever they are not fully charged. I disagree with Fast Fred's assertion that AGMs tolerate partial charge less well than flooded batterys, in fact my research suggests quite he opposite. While sulfate build up occurs at any discarge level it is very slow near full charge and becomes faster as depth of discharge increases. Many authorities say the sulfate build up in cells over 80% charged is negligible and most agree that the sulfation that occurs in cells subject to no more than a 50% depth of discharge is reversible with equalizing charges. A top notch, correctly sized, charging system is required to achieve decent life from your house battery. The easy way to get a top notch charging system is to use a top notch inverter/charger. Typical High quality lead acid deep cycle batterys both AGM and flooded will have life ratings of 1000+ cycles where depth of discharge is 50% or less. To achieve the greatest life periodic equalization charges as the maker suggests will be needed. Regards Jerry 4107 1120 | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 910 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 209.63.47.60 Rating: N/A |
Please cite the source for this claim. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| Mike Eades (Mike4905)
Registered Member Username: Mike4905 Post Number: 192 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 12.179.75.131 Rating: N/A |
John, I won't pretend to say what is best. I know what has worked for me over the last ten years of full timing eight months of the year. I run three 8D's and a 2500 zantrex 12 volt. I added the float charging system and monitor. it works great. My batteries last fust about five years and then off to Sam's for replacements.I run one roof ac and a house frig with ice maker and water. I run our washer all at the same time along with the normal things like tv, computer, printer, microwave. I will say that wieght is something to think about, but I figured that two or three hundred pounds was not going to make much difference. I between 5 to 5.5 mpg period. I pull 24 ft trailer so it won't make a difference. Mike | ||
| Randy Davidson (Rdavidson)
Registered Member Username: Rdavidson Post Number: 21 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 166.217.95.182 Rating: N/A |
For Tom C. re AGM batteries "upside down". I have 4 on the floor and 4 directly above them upside down so all the terminals are within inches of each other. AGM's can be mounted in ANY position and they work just fine. Confirmed by the company; in this case Lifeline. FYI Randy | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 939 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 208.54.200.78 Rating: N/A |
John, You now have an encyclopedia on batteries! Aren't you glad you asked this question?? | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 865 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 76.216.70.120 Rating: N/A |
The easy way to get a top notch charging system is to use a top notch inverter/charger. BUT , always but , the big very effective chargers have a hard time creating their superb output on a small noisemaker. Nice 10KW , or power cord , fine but a 4KW or 6KW may not have the power in its output. There is more than just voltage (the power area under the sine wave needs to be large enough.) This reduced output hassle is covered in many issues of Home Power , on line for free. FF | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 866 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 76.216.70.120 Rating: N/A |
. " The AGM must be fully recharged to 100% each and every time or they too will sulphate and loose capacity even more rapidly than cheap old wet batts." Please cite the source for this claim "What AGM retailers don't tell you is that an AGM must be recharged to 100% after any discharge in order for them to maintain their life expectancy. So you need the ability to do this either with alternator or battery charger. You need a good monitoring system, I prefer the units from Victron, avoid Xantrex, and use the unit to monitor usage and charging. At this point you need to do a good equalizing charge if you have the equipment that is capable of equalization. If you can't do this it is probably time for new batteries. If you can equalize, than once it is done, install a monitor and see how it goes." This was found on a trawler board , and visiting NOT BATTERY mfg sites , but the makers of the better V regulators backs it up. FF | ||
| Jerry Liebler (Jerry_liebler)
Registered Member Username: Jerry_liebler Post Number: 343 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 98.19.232.150 Rating: N/A |
FACT 100 amps at 24 volts is 2400 watts, FACT 200 amps at 12 volts is 2400 watts. Even a small generator can supply decent charging power if the charger is a "power factor corrected" type as most sine wave inverters are. FACT no RELIABLE authority that has done ANY research will support the statement: " The AGM must be fully recharged to 100% each and every time or they too will sulphate and loose capacity even more rapidly than cheap old wet batts.". Even if it were true a pulse desulfator can extend the life and reverse any sulfation. http://leadacidbatterydesulfation.yuku.com/ AGM's are a fine choice if the cost can be tolerated. Regards Jerry 4107 1120 | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 913 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 70.90.213.222 Rating: N/A |
Fred, quoting some anonymous poster on a trawler board does not constitute "citing a source." These statements are purely anecdotal -- I see no claims or evidence of any testing, research, or even theory to support them. All lead-acid batteries suffer from this problem. There is wide variance in performance even among different brands of batteries of the same type. But I have seen no broad studies that suggest that AGM batteries in general are any worse in this regard than flooded batteries, and, in fact, all the data I have seen as well as my own extensive experience support exactly the opposite conclusion. I ask again, please cite a credible source for your claim. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 868 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 76.216.70.120 Rating: N/A |
From the site if a mgf ,the important part is quited here although I have the entire page below. Enjoy, FF "For maximum battery life, a battery must be recharged to 100% capacity. Recharging less than 100% may result in premature battery failure. Lifeline batteries are not covered under warranty if they are not recharged properly. For more information, please refer to our warranty policy." Charging Procedures for Lifeline AGM Batteries There are a lot of different opinions about battery charging and we hope this will help clear up any confusion that our customers have. AGM batteries are still technically a lead acid battery and they charge very similar to a wet cell. Regardless of what some rumors portray, AGM batteries are not as sensitive as once believed. They often get confused with Gel Batteries, which are very sensitive to voltage and they need a special charger. Lifeline AGM batteries can also be equalized to regain capacity if need be (instructions for equalizing is listed below). We also offer very personal service if you would like to reach us by telephone should you have any further questions regarding our batteries. Battery Charging: Charge 1 with voltage-regulated (constant potential) charger. The following charging voltages are recommended for maximum battery life. 3 Stage Chargers Bulk 14.2-14.4 volts Acceptance 14.2-14.4 volts Float 13.2-13.3 volts 2 Stage Charger Bulk 14.2-14.4 volts Float 13.2-13.3 volts Single Stage Charger Bulk 14.2-14.4 volts Once the battery is fully charged, remove it from charger. Battery Equalizing and Deep Discharge Conditioning Charge: Charge with voltage-regulated (Constant voltage) charger. Charge1 @ 15.5 volts for 8 hours. ¹ Avoid overcharging. All batteries must be adequately vented during charging to avoid accumulations of explosive hydrogen gases. Never install or charge in a sealed container or sealed room. Equalizing should only be done when the battery is showing symptoms of capacity loss or from inadvertent deep discharges. In the event equalization is necessary, make sure to go through the normal charge cycle. Once the battery is fully charged, begin equalizing. Note: For 24 volt battery banks, simply take the charge voltages as provided above and multiply by 2. For maximum battery life, a battery must be recharged to 100% capacity. Recharging less than 100% may result in premature battery failure. Lifeline batteries are not covered under warranty if they are not recharged properly. For more information, please refer to our warranty policy. | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 914 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 70.90.213.222 Rating: N/A |
Fred, as I said, ALL lead acid batteries have this problem. The part of your statement I am questioning, which the above post does not deal with at all, is the part where you said that AGM would "loose capacity even more rapidly than cheap old wet batts." Even the quote you just posted says "AGM batteries ... charge very similar to a wet cell. Regardless of what some rumors portray, AGM batteries are not as sensitive as once believed." So again, please cite an authoritative source for this part of your claim. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 836 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 70.210.164.132 Rating: N/A |
OH myyyy... ....perhaps we should ease up a bit...it's hot and we all seem to be cranky... is that still a word??? Sean, where are you "parked"? hopefully in the high "cool country. RCB | ||
| Jerry Liebler (Jerry_liebler)
Registered Member Username: Jerry_liebler Post Number: 345 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 98.19.232.150 Rating: N/A |
Fred, Here is a statement from http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm "AGM's have a very low self-discharge - from 1% to 3% per month is usual. This means that they can sit in storage for much longer periods without charging than standard batteries. The Concorde batteries can be almost fully recharged (95% or better) even after 30 days of being totally discharged." That is completely opposite to your assestion. Go ahead. completely discharge your flooded battery, let it sit for 30 days and try charging it. Regards Jerry 4107 1120 | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 869 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 76.216.70.120 Rating: N/A |
The Concorde batteries can be almost fully recharged (95% or better) even after 30 days of being totally discharged." If you read that statement it admits to the perminant loss of capacity from total discharge. Why would you not expect a similar loss of capacity from not following the Mfg requirements and not recharging fully every time? No one in their right mind would cycle wet batts to DEAD , but the real question is what happens to batt sets that folks live off of? These will be cycled from hopefully 50% or higher up to 80% or so , frequently for weeks or months (boats) on end.There the ability to take this level of service is the question. A good quality wet deep cycle bat has features to allow this use. Heavy plates , thick insulators between plates (resists sulfation holes) and space at the bottom of the cell case for lead to slough off and collect with out shorting the plates. A Start batt , will have far thinner plates , thin insulation to allow more plates and therefore surface area and no place for lead particles as the discharge is usually 2% before going back to 100% . The AGM are far more similar in construction to starts , than Deep Cycle batts . Their huge advantage , for the few folks that are able to use it , is the ability to be rapidly recharged , cutting the time to go from 50%SOC to 80%SOC or slightly better in less noisemaker time. Should someone be storing a coach with no electric power there might be a use for AGM , but for the same buck$ a 75W solar panel or two and DC charger might have better long term use. FF | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 915 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 70.90.213.222 Rating: N/A |
Fred, AGM batteries are made in both starting and deep cycle configurations. This statement is simply incorrect. Within deep cycle types, there are AGM traction batteries as well as AE, house service, and backup styles. It is true that a flooded battery can be made that will outlast an AGM battery (in other words, support a larger overall number of cycles) for any given size. Note that such flooded batteries are expensive -- they are not a mere fraction the price of AGM batteries as has often been stated here, but about half to two thirds the cost. But these other claims you have made about AGM technology are simply not supported by the facts. I am technology-agnostic. I am not an AGM apologist, and I don't think they are the right answer for everyone in every circumstance. However, the analysis must be made for each case -- you can't simply dismiss an entire category out of hand.
Anyone can use AGM batteries -- I can't understand why you would say "few folks able." AGM batteries are available in all price points and sizes, so there are AGMs to fit every budget. In most cases, for a given dollar amount, you would be able to buy more "amp hours" in flooded batteries than AGM. However, it is important to remember that most flooded batteries should never be drawn down below 50%, while AGM can routinely be drawn down to 10%-20%. So you need less total capacity, in amp-hours, with AGM batteries, to do the same work. AGM batteries are also cheaper in the long run in almost every circumstance IF you account for the time-value of battery maintenance. In other words, if you had to pay someone a living wage, say $18 per hour, to check, clean, and water flooded batteries, then their lifetime cost will almost always exceed the lifetime cost of maintenance-free AGMs (assuming, of course, that all other guidance for proper use and longevity is followed equally). AGM batteries also have less demanding installation requirements -- for many people, additional expense would be incurred to add proper battery compartments for flooded cells, or heavier cabling to connect to batteries that are not ideally located with respect to chargers or loads. So there are many factors that go into the equation for lifetime cost of battery technologies. As I have written here before, the telecommunications and technology industries -- the world's largest consumers of lead-acid batteries -- switched entirely to VRLA technologies over a decade ago, because they are cheaper in the long run.
AGM deep cycle house batteries have been designed for exactly this type of service. All batteries, whether AGM or flooded, must be periodically charged to 100% to maximize longevity, and most flooded batteries also must undergo an equalizing charge on a periodic basis.
Please show me where it says, in the "Mfg requirements," that Concorde batteries must be "recharged fully every time."
I disagree. I am in my right mind by all accounts. However, when I ran a major telecommunications carrier, I would have run any batteries we had down to dead to keep that network up if I had to. I suspect every hospital administrator, prison warden, phone company executive, submarine commander, and anyone else who depends on batteries to back up critical functions would say the same thing. While nobody looks forward to having to replace an expensive bank of good batteries due to this kind of abuse, it is far preferable to losing lives on the operating table or in a submarine, or having 911 go unavailable, or having a riot in a prison, or losing millions of dollars in revenue because your network went down. Accidents and other unforeseen events happen, and sometimes it is beyond one's control and the batteries will run to dead. I know people with sailboats who lost their charging mid-ocean and had to squeeze every drop from their batteries to make it safely to port -- it happens. Likewise, telecom carriers don't have enough generators to recharge every set of batteries in the network at once -- after Katrina, every carrier had to replace hundreds of batteries. In those cases, BTW, you'll have wished you had spent the money on the AGMs, which are far more tolerant of overdischarge than flooded batteries, which I think is the point that Jerry was making. Fred, I respect your opinion on the advantages of flooded batteries. However, it is a disservice to readers here to mis-state the facts, offer speculation as factual, and generally malign other types of batteries without reason. The marketplace supports robust sales of all these different types of batteries precisely because there is no one, single, "correct" choice for every situation. Your assertion that AGM is a valid choice for only a "few" situations flies in the face of reality. You and I can (and do) disagree on which of these is "generally" a better choice for bus nuts, and that is strictly a matter of opinion. But only by doing the complete cost-benefit analysis for the specific situation under consideration can any individual know for certain which is the more cost-effective choice for her. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 870 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 76.216.70.120 Rating: N/A |
quote: for the few folks that are able to use it My comment relates to the fact that AGM may be recharged at a far higher rate (about the only advantage worth paying for)than wet cells. For folks that prefer the sounds of silence a 300A-24V bus alt , spun with the noisemaker engine of your choice gas, propane or diesel can be the fastest way to properly recharge a really big bank quickly. Most bus nuts that I know wont have anywhere the ability to create BIG DC amps , with out firing off the coach engine and hitting the road. AS noted tiny 6KW noisemakers need a load of help in feeding a 100A+ DC charger to full output.(tho with an extra transformer (+15) it can be done. When a fellow with little experience asks "which batteries", cheapo, very replaceable Sam's club or Sears golf carts (till they catch on) is still my recomendation. AGM, perhaps, for the fellow with very unusual and specific requirements ,dedicated special equippment and only after the learning curve is finished for years . FF | ||
| Jerry Liebler (Jerry_liebler)
Registered Member Username: Jerry_liebler Post Number: 346 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 98.19.234.233 Rating: N/A |
Fred, As I stated before a 2500 watt genset is fully capable of delivering 100 amps to a 24 volt bank. Your statement "AS noted tiny 6KW noisemakers need a load of help in feeding a 100A+ DC charger to full output.(tho with an extra transformer (+15) it can be done." must refer to something you experienced but is generally false. The key to effective charging is a regulating, power factor correcting charger such as is found in a top of the line sine wave inverter charger. The SW4024 will deliver the 100 amps at 24 volts from a 95 volt sick generator, no transformer needed. Meanwhile I've found that in the case of L16 size deep cycle batteries I can get AGM's or flooded for almost the same price. So when my flooded cells go I'll get AGMs Regards Jerry 4107 1120 | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 871 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 76.216.70.120 Rating: |
"The SW4024 will deliver the 100 amps at 24 volts from a 95 volt sick generator, no transformer needed. " Sure but most campers take a long time to decide that a $4000 inverter battery charger is worth the expen$e. With the usual $100 to $500 charger small noisemakers frequently operate at half or less of the "rating".So charge times get extreme. Folks at www.backwoodssolar.com/ do sell a patch for small gensets to assist them in upping their charge rate. VOLTAGE BOOST FOR BATTERY CHARGING If your generator doesn't give at least 2/3 of the rated charge amps from automotive battery chargers or modified wave UX and DR model inverter battery chargers, it's taking too long to get your battery fully charged. Some generators costing under $2500 lack in peak voltage. These voltage boost transformers can restore the full battery charging amps and reduces charge time. Use a DC ammeter like M-DIG AMP or Trimetric to confirm the need for this cure. 10% VOLTAGE BOOST TRANSFORMER Hard-wires between generator output and charger/inverter input. 5000 watt rated. 1 yr. warranty Their on line catalog (or print version) has lots of info learned from decades of supplying the off grid folks , their primary market. FF (Message edited by FAST FRED on June 30, 2009) | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 916 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 70.90.213.222 Rating: N/A |
Just so nobody gets scared off by this statement -- the SW4024 is today only available remanufactured, where it runs $1,200-$1,400.
I will put in a second vote for this outfit. In addition to the items Fred mentions, they have a great selection of energy-efficient appliances and AE system components. I bought my NovaKool 24-volt fridge from them. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 838 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.211.25.216 Rating: N/A |
Sean..."Today ONLY"...or "today,only $....."??? See what I mean? Most folks can't go for a $4000 unit and that is exactly what they were when I wanted to purchase...Ended up with a much smaller unit, but, "works for me",,,,reason I was "scared off". If you have any special deals in mind, please post!. Thanx, RCB | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 918 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 74.214.234.173 Rating: N/A |
Chuck, What that meant was today (and every day from now on) you can only get a re-manufactured unit -- the SW4024 is now out of production. And re-man units run $1,200-$1,400 when you can find them -- they are out there. When I bought my unit six years ago, I paid $1,900 brand new. These units have not sold for $4k for quite a while -- maybe close to a decade. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com |
