| Author | Message | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 927 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 76.200.209.136  Rating: N/A |
We have finally removed the CAT 1100 and 6 speed Allison and are looking at the frame rust.WOW !! There will be a bunch of rebuilding anyway to stick in the new setup as the engine space narrows by the tranny , and the new tranny retarder cooler makes it fairly wide. Finally got a good look at the stock rear axle and compared to other coaches it looks lots smaller than what I see in a 06Sportscar or under a MCI. Looks can be deceiving , so perhaps it can handle the extra HP and torque, but??? The real power test will be the combination of retarder and Jake on big western hills.Perhaps with a 10,000 trailer. Does anyone know the axle brand and model for a '56VL 100? Had 6-71 at birth.There is no info tag. I will check if its strong enough I can after I find out what it is. The ratio is probably (guess 3,78 ) way too deep for the new slow turning 4 stroke ,so will probably need a 3.25 to 3,07 to get the fuel mileage I'm hoping. The latest European majic box for ZF attempts to keep the RPM at 1100 to 1200 for economy. That would end a two stroke rapidly!! Using Darise's great computer I really enjoy reading the listed TOP speed computer generated TOP speed at 2100, with a 1200@65mph rear axle selection. Pete may have to add a Salt Flats section to his bus conversion drag races!! Any recommendation for an axle transplant? A locker might be nice , but we seldom go that far off semi paved road. Would a 2 speed have a high enough ratio for 1100-1200 interstate cruising? Would a 2 speed mess up the mind of a DDEC 3 and the ZF majic shift box? FF | ||
| clint hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 414 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.232.232  Rating: N/A |
might find a tag on the actual carrier or a stamped-in on the housing, as them were the old days... I do know that there use to be a face hardened "on the backside" differential option , it was designed to deal with "backlash wear" in frequent engine braking applications. Neoplan offered this option on their double deckers in 69 along with the 8V92, but it also had planetary drive at the wheel end , I understand. Still worth asking as you seek a better gear set, might even go with a locker style, they tend to be matched to strengthen gears sets, if you can find a good set. The local MC6 put a locker in when he had to renew, and reported no performance issues inherent in short wheel base applications (no axle skip/lock on tight turns). Next best thing to ATC in the new coaches, great to have if your spec.ing for heavy tow in the hills. ... go for it , all the way F.f., tis this not your way ??? p.s. Seems to me a good "magic in a bottle" patch up for excess backlash is Teflon and frequent diff oil changes. I had used the old slick 50 formula for standard transmissions in the past with success in this application, but not so sure they use ptfe Teflon any more, thy don't use it in there "less than recommended" engine formula that I can't get them to describe beyond "it's a secret formula". | ||
| Luvrbus (Luvrbus)
Registered Member Username: Luvrbus Post Number: 754 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 74.33.54.207 Rating: N/A |
Clint I don't think Neoplan offered the 8v92 in 69 they came on the market in 74 good luck | ||
| clint hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 415 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.232.219 Rating: N/A |
there was some sort of import thing going on, I only became aware of this while investigating a conversion sleeping near port Richie,FL on a pre-purchase investigation I was doing, never did buy here though, but maybe next time it comes looking for a new human servant... +I actual have a copy of the original brochure on this model and the factory service manual (in German only, which I do not read; neoplan sent it to me, thanks muchly neoplan). But you may be right it may be a 1970 creation date on this bus. The engine options were the 400 hp Mercedes or the 8V92 TA if I recall, will confirm when I return to base for a look, after the days work is done (I am at the shop now). ~IF ONLYL I "new" how to share the print , I certainly would or link to facebus , or something within archives protocol ...must have data, need more imputttttttttttttttttt, bus inputtttttttttttttttttt... | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1603 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.110.9  Rating: N/A |
Didn't the small injectored 2 valve 8-71's with the vs2-8 run at that low an rpm a lot? Why not get a rear axle out of a common MCI? That would allow to add bigger rear brakes, and I think you can get ratios into the high two's. Check Spicer or Rockwell axle specs online. | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 928 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 76.200.209.136 Rating: N/A |
Didn't the small injectored 2 valve 8-71's with the vs2-8 run at that low an rpm a lot? Hound ran 59 at 1600, and on the 4 speed stick shifts the shift pulls from about 1000rpm . But I dont know of 1100rpm DD 2 strokes. In gen sets the engines ran 1200 rpm for "prime " gensets (24/7 "forever"). My guesstimate shows a 3.07 would do great.More like a truck rear than bus. "That would allow to add bigger rear brakes" Big breaks are GOOD! although with retarder and Jakes might only be worth it if they come with the rear takeout. ????? FF | ||
| Bob Baldwin (Bob4106)
Registered Member Username: Bob4106 Post Number: 175 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 24.74.180.20  Rating: N/A |
Fred Any way we could see some picture of the bus your working on. Sounds really interesting,would like to know more about it as you make you changes. | ||
| clint hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 417 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.232.232 Rating: N/A |
-back to that Neoplan 1970 N/122/3 I was trying to remember: =yes the broceher does list two versions of 8V92/ TA the 404 hp federal & the 365 hp california engine, and the 400 hp mercedes however it does not have a print date. Rather suspect , as loveBUS mentioned as did they even make the 8V92 series jimmie back in 69 ??? +Getting slightly back on "rear end" topic, I notice reading over the letter that was sent with this information from Judi Wood sent, there is/was a parts bus... and that sure is a tiny compact little axle in these monsters ( Daimier Benz HO 4/01 DL-10 ) , employing planetary gear sets at the wheel end as a final drive, if one wished to upgrade from what they had , only with limited room. Just a little more than four bolts worth I would guess, and would such a effort give one with the desired final drive, well I doubt it as it was for a 8V92 with a HT 747; but then if there is room for larger tires (this N122/3 came with 11/R22.5 low profile). >of course the planetary dive at wheels would likely cause a significant drop in fuel mileage, so beyond the increased capacity in a small differential package and bigger brakes , there would likely be little reason to do such a transplant and well dare we even consider the parts logistics, but then that is all-parts+parcels to what a true bus nuts accepts as duty to these immortalizing these old coaches.(KTBF) <Well not sure if any of this is worth thinking about freddy, but there you be fellow busnut. The selling was back in Dec. 04, but I do have there email address if any wish to do a follow-up/ possible rescue operation, I could ask for you. Most willing to share this photo copy of the operator manual for anyones archives too, it is in German though, sure would be nice to have a translated copy sent back in kind... | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1606 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.110.9 Rating: |
Fred; check this out: http://www.vibratesoftware.com/html_help/html/Meritor_Rockwell/Meritor_Axles/Meritor_hyp_1 r_sin_axle.htm May be able to find a used one at a heavy duty truck salvage yard. I also believe that someone on here a couple of years ago was putting a 336 axle in their MCI. Someone should be able to come up with the axle model. Maybe they have a 3:07 version also. Don't forget to get a 96 inch version if you go that way. | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 929 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 76.200.209.136 Rating: N/A |
Thanks John, with that list I can decipher the axle numbers a recycler may have. FF | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 930 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 76.200.209.136 Rating: N/A |
Getting closer ,(finally) the rear end , sez Da Book is B-399-587 and the junk yard gurus believe that was a Dayton number. No luck so far on Google , did someone purchase Dayton during the last 50 years? What are they called now?? TIA FF | ||
| clint hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 423 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.232.219 Rating: N/A |
DAYTON TIMING BELTS ? just can not recall who though become the new corporate host; if we be speaking of the same scallywags... Clark also sold those "narrow pumkin" planetary final drive axles , if I recall (had them on a old skidder I use to try and log with). Not the ratio's you need, but still might be a way to go if space in part of the transplant equation. | ||
| Tim Brandt (Timb)
Registered Member Username: Timb Post Number: 414 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 74.244.14.221  Rating: N/A |
Fred, Not sure if this will help but the rear axle model in a Flxliner is a R163PX-1 or R163PX4 (I think Timken)if you need another option | ||
| Tom Christman (Tchristman)
Registered Member Username: Tchristman Post Number: 111 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.218.33.156 Rating: N/A |
If you're using the Allison World transmission with all 6 spds used, remember that 5th gear is .75 and 6th gear is .65 overdrive. Which gearing for 75 mph at 1600rpm would give you a rear end ratio of around 4.11. Even now with the slow running 4 stroke engines in trucks, the engine manufacturers are recommending a cruise speed rpm of 13-1500rpm for best fuel economy. If you're trying for a 11-1200rpm cruise rpm out of the transmission, Allison programs their 6 spd World transmissions not to run to low in rpm in 6th gear since it is such a tall gear. When the transmission gets down to about 1400rpm, it will down shift to 5th. 5th down to 2nd can and will lug to around 1000rpm with partial gas pedal. Gearing for 1600rpm at 75 will allow the transmission to get into 6th gear. Any faster gearing, you might not even get into 6th. Good Luck, TomC | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 932 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 76.200.209.136 Rating: N/A |
Don't I wish I had the 2 OD style. The tranny I have is a hugely over sized ZF 600 that has an OD of .84.(came from a monster Mann.) So I need a pretty low rear 3.07? to get a economic low rpm at cruise. I weighed the coach , with the full Angola conversion, and Cat 3208 with 6 speed Allison it was under 25,000lbs.The series 50 may add a bit. So I hope to shoot for a 60 mph in OD cruise of 1200rpm. Great for the flat lands , and our usual 75 cruise would be about 1500rpm . This might be too ambitious , but she is both light and aerodynamically good ,old style very rounded corners and low frontal area. 4th gear , direct, I hope will handle most hills , even western hills. Too ambitious? FF | ||
| Tim Brandt (Timb)
Registered Member Username: Timb Post Number: 415 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.165.176.62 Rating: N/A |
Fred I forgot to add the Flxliner rear uses a drop box. As for too ambitious maybe not with the power the series 50 makes I know certainly for my 6-71 Nat it would be  | ||
| clint hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 426 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.232.219 Rating: N/A |
ambition = steam/disposable income ... may you always do it your way f.F. ... | ||
| Jim Wilke (Jim Bob) (Pd41044039)
Registered Member Username: Pd41044039 Post Number: 388 Registered: 2-2001 Posted From: 69.77.145.30 Rating: N/A |
Hey Fred, when are you going to change out the picture & insert your new ride? | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 933 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 76.200.209.136 Rating: N/A |
"when are you going to change out the picture & insert your new ride?" I would hope when its drivable , and has the first 1000 test miles under its chasis. Perhaps by Christmas.  However here is what it looked like when new , for folks that have never seen a VL 100 FF | ||
| clint hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 430 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.232.232 Rating: N/A |
nice, thank you kindly for sharing f.F. ...don't recall having seen that model before, look forward to surmising the inner workings as you share in the course of restoring the chassis and operating the coach ( eye be blaming the "canuck goberment" and there ridiculous bus import protection prejudices on anything younger than Jan.1971. I really can not see how such regulations represents the peoples will or major interests in this age of "globalism" which we are being made to choke down... | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 582 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 71.53.155.14  Rating: N/A |
I sang for a few years with a group out of Harrisonburb Va. and we had one of those and at the time, it had an 8V-71 put in. Originally it was a 6-71 and what a fun ride. Torsion system, rode like a dream except for the rough roads. I liked it but caution to you watch for the rust on the coach,as was this coach anyhow, but can be repaired. Good Find tho. Oh this coach was originally owned by the Hopper Brothers. Gomer | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 935 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 76.200.209.136 Rating: N/A |
"I liked it but caution to you watch for the rust on the coach." Its just like an Eagle , even on a clear day one can hear it rust, and rust , and rusta mile away. But 1 inch square steel tube isn't very expensive. And the old saying "Either you got time or money', is still accurate.I'm retired. The biggest difference in the coach is the upper windshield and 3 non opening skylights. Even the best vacation gets some dark dreary days , and lots of light is one medicine. FF | ||
| David Evans (Dmd)
Registered Member Username: Dmd Post Number: 361 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 173.77.211.20  Rating: N/A |
Nice looking model. What was the guy from Ohio Fred who had one? Junior maybe. He use to come to Jacks, maybe still does.Very knowledgeable about engines and rear ends. | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1621 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.110.9 Rating: N/A |
One of the members of Converted Coach chapter of FMCA had one several years ago. I think it had a 6-71 in it. His destination sign said "KNOTABUS" One thing I remember is he had the torsalastics redone and had one H of a time pressing them apart. | ||
| Jack Conrad (Jackconrad)
Registered Member Username: Jackconrad Post Number: 1157 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 173.126.101.189  Rating: N/A |
"What was the guy from Ohio Fred who had one? Junior maybe. He use to come to Jacks, maybe still does.Very knowledgeable about engines and rear ends." That would be Jr. & Bertha Showman, they now live near Jacksonville, FL. Not only do they have a Flex, 3 of their children also have Flexbles. Jack | ||
| David Lower (Dave_l)
Registered Member Username: Dave_l Post Number: 192 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 67.58.201.132  Rating: N/A |
Fred I know this is off topic but I need your help. I read before an article you did on installing a freightliner or a ford locking door latch on a coach door. Would you know where it is? I would like to read how you did it. Dave L |
