| Author | Message | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 583 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 71.53.155.14  Rating: N/A |
I, along with countless others have had problems with NEW fuel, not only with diesel,but car engines and even lawn mowers. Question is, where do you buy non-ethanol gas and good burning diesel fuel. | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1608 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.110.9  Rating: N/A |
nationwide name brand Truck stops carry good fuel. Also do a search for good quality fuel locations for otr trucks. Check with any truckers at a local truck stop. | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 934 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 76.200.209.136  Rating: N/A |
By law the gas is all poisoned with alcohol , as an air police "solution" for a non problem. But also as the first primaries are in the mid west as a payoff to our politically protected farmers . We used to laugh at the Soviets , 75 years if starvation due to "bad weather" Our Farmers have 75+ years of billion dollar handouts , without even the pretense of "bad weather". US farmers "Farm the Code" , not their land. The only solutions I can come up with are to purchase fuel at the local airport where there is 100LL which has no fuel killing alcohol. OR to switch to propane , what we intend to do for the gas genset (Honda RV) in out project VL. The boating industry , actually the boat owners, have suffered many millions of dollars of losses from the Ethanol gas. The ethanol EATS GRP (fiberglass) fuel tanks , as well as requiring new fuel lines , pumps and carb kits. This disaster was completely preventable as the results of adding alcohol to fuel has been known for 7 to 9 decades. Folks with outboards simply dump any left over fuel into their cars , as on the water the , fuel and oil mix is dead (has absorbed water) in a week. One fellow I know is experimenting with ADDING water to the Gov mandated trash fuel , to cause all the alcohol to absorb water and fall to the bottom. The top fuel is syphoned off and may (he hopes) have a service shelf life of over 3weeks or a month. The modern boat technique is to store built in tanks as empty as can be done (used too be FULL) and gas up before ant trip with the minimum amount of fuel to get back. A car that doesn't see much use should only be fueled when begining use and left as empty as you dare. UGH!!! FF | ||
| Bruce Henderson (Oonrahnjay)
Registered Member Username: Oonrahnjay Post Number: 446 Registered: 8-2004 Posted From: 70.60.107.113  Rating: N/A |
the gummints (I think Canada too) also mandated that sulfur be removed from diesel, starting in about 2006, I think. It cut down the lubricating properties of diesel fuel (injectors and many fuel pumps are lubricated -- or should be -- by the fuel). It also has fewer BTU's meaning the you get fewer MPG's. OK, it a poorer fuel and it damages your vehicle, but it's "Better"???? Guess you gotta be a bureacrat to understand that. The one thing that the move to ULSD did do was to make the fuel a bit cleaner. But it sure is a big drop in the usefulness of the fuel, AFAIAC. | ||
| doug yes (Dougg)
Registered Member Username: Dougg Post Number: 97 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 174.131.122.226 Rating: N/A |
I read a actual study of the relative lubricity of various diesel additives on the market. It turned out the best one is biodiesel. | ||
| Debbie and Joe Cannarozzi (Joe_camper)
Registered Member Username: Joe_camper Post Number: 187 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 98.212.104.155 Rating: N/A |
So now is it sensable to start putting some form of additive in fuel year round to compensate for the new blend to improve lubricating value? If so, what? Lot of it is snake oil. | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 960 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 72.171.0.147  Rating: |
We have already beat the ULSD subject to death here. Lots in the archives. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| clint hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 434 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.232.232  Rating: N/A |
biodiesel is said to lubricate, but also said to shrink older style seals , like on you fuel pump and loosen a lot of crud, just like ethanol gasoline blends , for the first few uses. Change filters often at first. >Seems that the higher octane gasoline has a longer shelf life in these parts. All fuel is not equal in all regions. <There are fuel stabilizer additives that claim to keep fuel "fresh" for one year, but I have no proof to offer or real knowledge on the chemical make-up & break down process. Always have a clean & safe storage vessle for starters when storeing, idealy in a cool location. -It would be better to read some real science on the shelf life of ULSD when intended for use in MIU jimmies & the various electronic control injection systems such as the piezo injectors on cat & mecedes diesel. | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 937 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 76.200.209.136 Rating: N/A |
"Seems that the higher octane gasoline has a longer shelf life in these parts. All fuel is not equal in all regions." Truer words were never spoken , there are some 20+ blends mandated by Zip code by the air police , you can get a different blend of gas across a street! And folks wonder why distribution costs are high! <There are fuel stabilizer additives that claim to keep fuel "fresh" for one year, but I have no proof to offer or real knowledge on the chemical make-up & break down process. The fuel just absorbes water it doesnt "break down". Always have a clean & safe storage vessle for starters when storeing, idealy in a cool location. The ONLY way to store gasoline is in an AIR TIGHT container , so it cant absorb water. Once its in a fuel tank with a vent , the end is weeks at best away. And they wonder why we call them BuroRATS? FF | ||
| clint hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 439 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.232.232 Rating: N/A |
air tight but only to a pressure below the vessel's rupture pressure. On plastic gas cans I make the vent loosely close when in stationary vented storage, so as to vent well before swelling up & bursting during a fire event, a few p.s.i. at most. You will lose a we bit of the most volatile components of your gas as a safety trade off, which ages the fuel more quickly. Not likely any atmospheric/moisture incursion on cooling at night if the vent is just snugged up, as gasoline out-gasses easily on slight pressure drop or tempature rise, so there will not be much sucking in upon cooling, (not unlike that can of beer before you open it) more vapor sensitive than heavy fuel oils like No.2 diesel. - Safety first & last- Traveling fuel cans must be properly tightened and stowed safely with all liquid/gaseous fuels. | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 1677 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 76.71.103.4  Rating: N/A |
My small engine buddy recommends fuel stabilizer in all the small engines fuel systems all the time. Eliminates the fuel gumming up. Cleaning and re-setting carbs full of gum is pretty much what a small engine guy does all day. Your chainsaw/lawn mower/generator is hard to start or won't run right due to gummed fuel almost every time. Gumming won't change with the addition of some food fuel. happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| Stephen Fessenden (Sffess)
Registered Member Username: Sffess Post Number: 761 Registered: 1-2002 Posted From: 66.38.120.219 Rating: |
Tecumeh Sabil is a dry granular fuel stabilizer available in small canisters that will treat 90 gallons. No messy leaking bottles. Because it is in granular form and can be shipped and carried on airlines etc. it is also the ideal solution for generators in remote locations and missions. Most Caribbean countries only have drigas which causes gum instead of preventing it. You will probably have to have your local small engine shop order the jar for you. They usually only stock the 2 1/2 gallon pouch. The larger container is much cheaper by the gallon. I used this for 8 years in Florida on all my small engines and never had gum again. (Florida has more gum than the North because less gum production is slower in cold weather, so 8 years of success in Florida is the acid test.) | ||
| Debbie and Joe Cannarozzi (Joe_camper)
Registered Member Username: Joe_camper Post Number: 188 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 98.212.104.155 Rating: N/A |
You are all commenting on stabilizers that is not what I was curious about. i want an addative that replaces the LUBRICATING properties we have lost. Lucas and all the rest of the snake oil products do not mention that on their lables I have looked. Does this product exzist? What about good old motor oil in small measured amounts???????????????? | ||
| clint hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 445 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.232.219 Rating: N/A |
odd last time I was purchasing lots of diesel in BC with its ULSD a few years back had many brands of additives with claims to lubricate the injectors & seal; does this mean there claims were challenged & did survive the tide of sewage ? .-or was there some class action lawsuit against one product that made the others recoil from such ambiguous claim ??? >M.I.B. shall look further into this Mrs'n'MrCamper and hopefully others on board shall seek the facts too ( seems we rarely get what we pay for, and almost never get what we merely asked for) | ||
| Rob Allen (Rob_allen)
Registered Member Username: Rob_allen Post Number: 13 Registered: 6-2009 Posted From: 194.69.148.1  Rating: N/A |
I use a bit of both Lucas diesel additive, and Power Service diesel additive in all my vehicles, which are all diesels. I have no data or numbers but I do believe they help. I know they are working in my truck which is a 83' F250 with the 6.9 NA International diesel. I bought the truck in december 08 and only used it sparingly during the beginning of the year. Right around easter it began acting up real bad, the fuel governor was sticking inside my injection pump causing it to run full throttle off and on without warning. After a little research I found this has happened to numerous people since the fuel switch so I drained my tank and refilled it with a additive mix, I haven't had a problem since. I should also note that the truck was run off road before I bought it so it had a regular diet of high sulfur off road diesel which it was used to, may have made the change that much more dramatic. I also ran B100 and veg oil/ diesel mixtures in my car, a mercedes 300D for over two years with real good success while i was living in vermont. For me though biodiesel isn't a viable option with my bus because of the amount of fuel it uses/I would have to make. I really liked the ease of mixing straight veg oil and diesel, and how well it ran in my car, the engine loved how lubricative it is, but you have to be ready for fairly significant annual maintenace when doing that because it will coke up injectors over a year or two of heavy use, and it isn't anything you want to leave sitting in a tank during storage. | ||
| David Guglielmetti (Daveg)
Registered Member Username: Daveg Post Number: 105 Registered: 2-2009 Posted From: 71.139.244.152  Rating: N/A |
FWIW, Lucas makes quality products and seems to be a good company. Maybe a call to Lucas and ask them? | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 961 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.24 Rating: |
ULSD you buy at the pump already has lubricity additives to make up for the lost aromatic hydrocarbons. As I wrote earlier, there are dozens and dozens of posts in the archives on ULSD and lubricity, so you might paw through them -- pretty much every aftermarket additive has already been discussed. FWIW, you do not need to add anything to today's ULSD fuels, period. In fact, as always, Detroit recommends against any aftermarket fuel additive with the lone exception being if you are experiencing gelling in sub-freezing temperatures. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 904 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.210.196.39 Rating: N/A |
Amen...and Amen... Thanx, Sean.  RCB | ||
| Debbie and Joe Cannarozzi (Joe_camper)
Registered Member Username: Joe_camper Post Number: 189 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 98.212.104.155 Rating: |
Before I ask for comment on other topics I will first check all the archived to be sure if they have been discused in great length previously. In the future I will try to only to ask questions on less frequented topics. | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 1678 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 76.71.104.110 Rating: N/A |
In my next life, I'm coming back as a snake oil salesman... Use your fuel, fill your fuel, keep your filters fresh, spend your cash on beverages, not additives. Those in the frozen north know the exception to the rule. happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| clint hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 448 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.232.232 Rating: N/A |
and how much for a glass of that snake oil ? ...IF the wheels are frozen and fuel gelling it is time to bus down warmer roads... | ||
| larry currier (Larryc)
Registered Member Username: Larryc Post Number: 269 Registered: 2-2007 Posted From: 205.188.116.203 Rating: N/A |
Hi Joe, I use several of the additives on the market, depending on what I'm doing and where I'm running around the country. I can justify Power Service pretty much all the time because it adds MPG that pays for itself. My bulk fuel supplier also uses tank additives that stop several things from growing in their tanks that I also use in my bus if it sits for several months without being used. When I have had information from the local injector rebuilders and shops that they are doing alot of stuck injector work, I have added motor oil, like Joe, (1 gallon to 100) to the fuel tank as well as ATF and other fuel stop available additives. Those issues have turned up in the past during gov't forced change overs. Seems like once they get things rolling the issues seem to go away. The bus is more of a toy. When the family uses it I don't want to be down somewhere for a day to change out a hung injector, so I have no problem using something like Power Service. I agree with Sean that todays fuel has everything it needs, but I also believe that additives can get you 400,000 miles out of a set of 300,000 mile injectors. I have a good ear for how my engines are running and if an injector is starting to hang I can clear it up with some Power Service and keep rolling. I really believe that injectors love all the lubrication they can get. They may not need it, but they like it.. I use Lucas products too. They invented their products to keep engines and gears togather in extreme desert heat and they are proven to work. If its 120 out and the tranny is smoking, it will smoke alot longer without dieing if its got some Lucas in it. They also make a great product for worn power steering boxes that takes alot of the wander out of over sensitive steering gears. Mine drives like new since I used their product. I don't know about Ocala, but my local 76 distributor sells several ratings of racing fuel that do not have anything but gasoline in them. One is 110 octane and may still be leaded. So if you need good fuel for small engines and wanted a few gallons around that will not turn to goop over time you could go that way. | ||
| clint hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 451 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.232.219 Rating: N/A |
on old gasoline, what does the small aircraft mechanics do with the aging fuel in the tanks, there must be some sort of FAA regulation and approved storage procedures ? ... I am guessing there are no old blimp mechanics on board , so I won't even ask what those diesel powered dirigibles did to store their fuel in the windy season ; perhaps some JP advice for turbine aircraft would fit in this thread... | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 938 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 76.202.164.194 Rating: N/A |
on old gasoline, what does the small aircraft mechanics do with the aging fuel in the tanks, BY FAA laws the aircraft fuel is not poisoned with ethanol,so it lasts if treated for bugs. Tiny aircraft have fuel tank low point drains that help remove condensation and dirt. WE plan on using 100LL for the Honda noisemaker in our VL, till its converted to propane. Propane may make a welcome comeback in RV,s as the fuel does not die in the tank. FF | ||
| clint hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 453 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.232.219 Rating: N/A |
you likely right on the comeback of propane F.f. much less running & storage problems and less toxic exhaust -So on this ethanol problem, am I to take it that all of the U.S. domestic gasoline is mandated to be a blend or will be ? ? ? | ||
| Debbie and Joe Cannarozzi (Joe_camper)
Registered Member Username: Joe_camper Post Number: 190 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 98.212.104.155 Rating: N/A |
Thanks for that reply Larry. A quart on a tankfull. How big a tank we talkin about. I have never heard of tranny fluid. Any greater noticable black smoke under load using that? Not that I care, just curious. I recently went through a spell with my Kabota powered generator. Missing real bad cold and taking very long to warm up. Went away after some additive. Old old stuff I had around the garage. Wasn't completly convinced it was the fuel. I also found a loose end terminal to the power source to the solonoid that shuts down the fuel rail. Haven't had any issues with the 8-V I will let time tell and see if these new engines on this new fuel hold up as well. Pardon my cynisysim. Pardon my spelling too. | ||
| clint hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 461 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.237.52 Rating: N/A |
uhm... so what happens if one re-asked an old question & someone mentions new information on the topic, perhaps a new technology to address the issue with ? ? ? ( I'm never gonna get a ticket to climb onboard the cyclops now ) | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 963 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 72.171.0.147 Rating: N/A |
Joe, I will pardon your cynicism, if you will pardon mine. Detroit Diesel explicitly prohibits motor oil, particularly used motor oil, and transmission fluid from being added to the fuel. Now a "prohibition" really only applies to an engine that is under warranty (and, yes, you can still get a 2-stroke with a warranty). So you can put molasses in the tank, if that's what you want to do. After-market additive companies are very, very good at marketing their products, up to and including sending out many official-sounding "press releases" that get picked up by trade magazines and presented as fact. They even go so far as to hire their own testing laboratories to conduct extremely controlled tests to spin the results to make the product look effective. All in the name of parting you from your money. Virtually every independent, scientific, double-blind, controlled study ever conducted has shown that most of these additives produce NO measurable improvement of any kind, whether that's fuel mileage, injector life, or horsepower. If you have a gelling problem (extreme cold) or a bacterial growth problem (storing fuel for long periods in humid conditions) you can benefit from specific treatments that deal with those two problems. When ULSD was first developed, and triboligists started discussing the fact that additives would have to be introduced to replace the lubricity lost when some of the aromatic hydrocarbons (NOT sulfur, which is actually bad for engines anyway) are lost in the removal process, every Tom, Dick, and Harry that sells additives immediately jumped on this information to induce fear and panic in the market. As I wrote earlier, ALL diesel you buy at retail has already been treated with the proper lubricity additives to meet the specifications for all modern injectors. And, trust me, if it is good enough for modern, high-pressure, small-tolerance injectors that are found in tier-III 4-strokes, it is absolutely fine in the sloppy injectors in a DD 2-stroke, which will run on almost anything (possibly including molasses). You will be better off taking the money you would spend on aftermarket fuel additives and putting it in the bank for a rainy day; most of us will end up rebuilding our engines due to any of a dozen other issues (just ask me -- I've dusted mine twice, or Jim Shepherd, who lost his to cavitation or some other coolant-related issue, or any of maybe half a dozen others on this board who've lost engines to various causes) before you will ever see an injector problem due to fuel lubricity issues. FWIW, HTH, and, of course, YMMV. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (Message edited by Sean on September 06, 2009) | ||
| clint hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 466 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.237.52 Rating: N/A |
I understood the lubrication concern with 2 stroke jimmies was related to the fuel pump seal shrinkage, just like when bio-diesel was blended in to diesel. That was in the BC market with a shift to ULSD a few years back. Sorry don't have the research available to share today. ...when the fuel pump seals shrink the pump may allow air to blead into the injector rail (fuel seeps out and the air flows in to replace fill the void) which may lead to difficult/ long starts until the injectors are fueled again and spraying more than air into the cylinder, likely showing up sooner (days after shutdown) on a low fuel tank or parked downhill... +modern jimmie fuel pump seals are not affected , being made of a different material, apparently. Your old pump may care , but they are cheap and easy to change. | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 964 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.32 Rating: N/A |
Clint, I think you may be remembering the original change to "Low Sulfur" (as opposed to "Ultra Low Sulfur") back in 1993. The change then was from 5,000 ppm down to 500 ppm, and, indeed, there were problems with fuel pump seals. Note, though, this is unrelated to "lubricity," which is what Joe asked about. What was learned back then is that aromatic hydrocarbons (which, indeed, are the same ingredients responsible for the lubricity problem) were responsible for swelling the seals. Removing them meant the seals did not swell as much, and leaks were the result. It might be noted that a new seal, even made of the same material, would not have the problem, since it would not have "taken a set" at a higher swell level. Ultimately, the problem was resolved. And, yes, this happens every time, which is why I have always advised that, if possible, you hold off on new fuel formulations until there has been some track record in the field, and the suppliers have had a chance to iron out the kinks. ULSD today has appropriate additives to deal with the lubricity and seal swelling issues. It's possible that fuel sold in 2006 might have had some issues with either of these. But adding anything to the fuel today is not going to help with any accelerated wear you may have incurred three years ago. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| clint hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 467 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.237.52 Rating: N/A |
-but the snake oil salesperson promised it would restore the original metals ...to better than factory new condition... were they referring to what they might do with the profits to there test engines in a good rebuild shop??? yes I was mainly referring to the B.C. supply and what they were trying here in 05/06. Seems they settled on adding a carbon tax (now at 10% and scheduled to rise twice more) to all energy and sticking the cash in there buddies pockets; as thought that was the real problem that need address, with the theory that carbon cuts would be achieved by making it to expensive for the poor to purchase, thereby reducing what is combusted. Those bureaucrats sure are clever folk when it comes to problem resolution (there problems not those that employ them). |
