| Author | Message | ||
| Nellie Wilson (Vivianellie)
Registered Member Username: Vivianellie Post Number: 325 Registered: 11-2008 Posted From: 75.178.92.43  Rating: N/A |
Seems I’ve learned just enough to realize how little I know. I’d planned on keeping the coach A/C. (Then again, I’d once planned on keeping the original lavatory). My question: Is it worth re-conditioning and keeping? The compressor and hoses are good and I’ve installed new belts. But now it’s out of Freon (or whatever the newest ‘green’ equivalent is) and the aluminum fins in the condenser (?) are badly corroded… and the hardware inside the door needs to be refreshed. But the copper tubing looks fine. I can get another door (with all plumbing), and clean everything up, but is it worth it? From the posts, looks like almost everybody ditched this system… too expensive to maintain or they needed the room (or both). And I sure do NOT want to invest a lot of time & $$ on something I’ll end up tossing. I’m just looking for opinions, either pro or con. My main concern: I don’t want to lose my OEM coach heat – it’s great and I use it a lot. One last thing (a real dumb blonde kind of question): Could the existing A/C compressor be modified to serve as an auxiliary air compressor? I’ve developed an almost obsessive concern with air… the majority of my problems have been air related (correction: LACK of air related). I’d like to build in some redundancy – the easiest way possible. Many thanks. Nellie Wilson | ||
| hojji firemaker (Hojjifiremaker)
Registered Member Username: Hojjifiremaker Post Number: 54 Registered: 4-2008 Posted From: 67.142.162.34  Rating: N/A |
dumb blondes don't work on and drive 40' busses, so you are out of that category... I would say fix it if you can do it for cheaper than purchasing, installing and powering over head a/c units.... It is a great spot for a generator if not. i personally like things to function stock, then add my custom flair... I removed a lot of the duct work in my coach and rerouted the floor vents to where i wanted them. | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 974 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 76.202.165.190  Rating: N/A |
Hound used to spend over 50% of the coach maint time on air cond repair. That was when freon was 35c a pound. Many Mexican coaches simply use more efficient propane / butane than the really poor freon replacements , as the same hoses can be used . I would toss it and out use all the room freed up to far better use. Keep the dash defroster and all the rest of the HVAC is scrap. FF | ||
| Rob Norgren (Robsedona)
Registered Member Username: Robsedona Post Number: 132 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 75.210.245.71  Rating: N/A |
I would toss it also and but in other AC/Heat Winter is on the way so A great time to do this. and the coach AC is really only good for down the road. As I remember you are in her full time now need something for the parked times. Their is a lot of different choices out their and allot of them do both heating and cooling in one unit. I only have the dash Defroster left of the heating system and she has 2 roof Aires but only need the one up front. to cool the whole coach even in 114 AZ weather and not on full blast ether so if you look at design design and plan the AC good think of air flow and where to but the unit or units you get! This summer I would have to ruin the bus every day for 8to 18 hrs a day at $10 - $?? to stay cool or all month $80. in elec. Just the savings in money over time is worth it. But thats my way I like the space I save with the roof AC living full time need the Basement LOL. A 40ft coach has 5 more feet at 35ft 2 people we need all the space for stuff we can get :-) Its great to have it your Way! Rob | ||
| hojji firemaker (Hojjifiremaker)
Registered Member Username: Hojjifiremaker Post Number: 58 Registered: 4-2008 Posted From: 67.142.162.35 Rating: N/A |
rob, what brand/model a/c units are you using? btu's? | ||
| Rob Norgren (Robsedona)
Registered Member Username: Robsedona Post Number: 135 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 75.210.245.71 Rating: N/A |
I have a 1987 Domstic-Aire Model CAS-135 13500Btu this model also has the heat Option. I keep it cleaned and I have been happy with this unit. When its 106 outside and AC on half its 80 inside at the wall! and I turn on the AC early in the AM before the heat comes in If I'm gone and come home to a Hot Bus It takes forever and I have to turn it up to full to cool all that wall heat down again so I learned to leave it on when I leave for a Day or Come home real late at night! The bus is well Insulated and the unit is mounted so the rear vent is blowing strait down the hallway Also I block off the Windows to keep the heat out and cool in in the Winter. The windows are a great heat source in the winter with the sun on them. and the weakest point of Insulation! Oh the floor is Insulated also with insulated board from the 80s it does make a difference! The other AC is a Coleman unit in the back also from 1987 Don't know the model Its a Mach something I used to run both until the Colman broke 2 years ago You could not go to the back in the day in the summer LOL It was only ever run at its lowest sitting> It Needs only the fan motor and I think almost $200 is way to much! I think if you want to Be cool or Warm in these buses Insulate Insulate and plug the Holes in them Just like a House! Or over power them with hot or cold Air! | ||
| Bill Gerrie (Bill_gerrie)
Registered Member Username: Bill_gerrie Post Number: 290 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 166.90.247.59 Rating: N/A |
Nellie Like FF said. Too expensive to maintain. Freon is very expensive so I would remove it. The orginal A/C system was only for over the road and you would make a lot of enemys running the DD to produce A/C when parked. The compressor isn't designed to produce air. You could buy a small 120 volt air compressor to have in case you ever needed air and run it off the generator or invertor. Put a quick disconnect fitting in the air system so you could connect to it in an emergency. Bill | ||
| Bill Gerrie (Bill_gerrie)
Registered Member Username: Bill_gerrie Post Number: 291 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 166.90.247.59 Rating: N/A |
Nellie I forgot to mention that if you go for roof mounted A/C units place one of them as close as possible to the front so you get the benefit of it when travelling. Close the rear vents and direct the front outlets on the unit towards you and it will keep you cool on a real hot day. I also have a small 12 volt fan mounted at the top of the windshield that blows the cool air on me. Make sure it is a variable speed type so you can slow it down. | ||
| Ron Walker (Prevost82)
Registered Member Username: Prevost82 Post Number: 401 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 208.181.210.47  Rating: N/A |
I also removed mine ... looked way to expensive to fix and maintain | ||
| Rob Norgren (Robsedona)
Registered Member Username: Robsedona Post Number: 137 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 75.210.245.71 Rating: N/A |
The fans mounted in the front also help move the air when you are parked! I have two one on each side> Mine are from the 80s and only high speed you just gave me an Idea I could but a dimmer switch on the dash instead of the toggle to control the speed! Rob | ||
| Chuck Newman (Chuck_newman)
Registered Member Username: Chuck_newman Post Number: 400 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 99.170.65.116  Rating: N/A |
Nellie, I dumped my OTR A/C for all the reasons mentioned above. Bought two Carrier units from the folks below. Came via UPS. Mounted them in the two escape hatches. Work great. The best prices I could find. Last year in December, they had a sale on same unit with electric heat for $450. each. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NEW-CARRIER-15Kbtu-RV-BOAT-AC-AIR-CONDITIONER-SYSTEM_W0QQcm dZViewItemQQ_trksidZp4634Q2ec0Q2em14Q2el1262QQhashZitem25567ba36fQQitemZ160364733295QQptZM otorsQ5fRVQ5fTrailerQ5fCamperQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories I got a small two tank air compressor that will fit where the original OTR freon compressor used to sit. It can air the bus and run my pneumatic tools and jacks. It needs a dedicated 15 amp 120 vac circuit, but works great. And it is pricey. Higher CFM for it's size than most. If you don't want to run tools, you could get by with a $99.00 Harbor Freight compressor the same size. Lower air flow ratings. http://www.amazon.com/Thomas-Compressors-T-2820ST-2-Horsepower-Compressor/dp/B0000ANEIL/re f=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1254500625&sr=8-2 | ||
| Rob Norgren (Robsedona)
Registered Member Username: Robsedona Post Number: 138 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 75.210.245.71 Rating: N/A |
On coach heat their are units that burn fuel and you could vent into the vent already in place and at the same time keep the engine warm I have heard only good things about these as a whole from many sources this site also I don't know what the cost is but I'm considering it and do away with my Propane heater! and do 2 jobs at the same time. But alas money is My Issue! and already just spent my wad and have so much more to catch up on Before getting ready for the next plan!!!!!!!! Rob | ||
| Nellie Wilson (Vivianellie)
Registered Member Username: Vivianellie Post Number: 327 Registered: 11-2008 Posted From: 75.178.92.43 Rating: N/A |
Thanks to all you guys - Seems to be (almost) unanimous. Though I share Hojji's philosophy (liking "things to function stock") there's a limit, isn't there? I finally bought a portable A/C - this NC heat gets pretty tough, especially being parked in direct sunlight. Works okay - keeps me maybe 15 degrees cooler than outside. If I ever get my own 120AC, should work on the road too. So my one remaining (but major) concern: Can I remove the entire A/C apparatus but retain my coach heat? Fred's post would indicate otherwise (Keep the dash defroster and all the rest of the HVAC is scrap"). But is that a choice or a necessity? I mean, could I remove just the big compressor and the condensor stuff and keep the coach heat? Or are the two systems completely integrated? I'm probably suffering from frostbite syndrome (don't worry, it's a strictly Northern affliction) but that coach heat has been my salvation... many, many times. And this perverse little voice keeps whispering, "Someday Nellie, you're going to need me again." Seems I read in a prior post - months ago now - that someone had removed their A/C but kept the coach heat intact. If that someone happens to come across this thread, could you give me a shout? And thanks again. Nellie- | ||
| Nellie Wilson (Vivianellie)
Registered Member Username: Vivianellie Post Number: 328 Registered: 11-2008 Posted From: 75.178.92.43 Rating: N/A |
A PS to Chuck and Rob - our posts crossed in the night. I was pecking away and didn't see yours until too late. Thanks for the links and info. And, Rob, I've seen those fuel driven units, even took a tour in a bus that had one. VERY neat installation and they work really well. I know a guy has some, and will even install. Price is extremely reasonable, (though still too much for me right now.) But I'll definitely go get one when I have the bucks. If you want more info, let me know. Nellie | ||
| Ralph Peters (Ralph7)
Registered Member Username: Ralph7 Post Number: 63 Registered: 3-2004 Posted From: 206.251.5.175 Rating: N/A |
You can keep the heat, it's ok to keep the old evaporayor. Remember you will loose the weight of the compressor and condensor(it is on that door) plus removing the motor in back of the condensor. Look at all the new room to put STUFF. | ||
| Chuck Newman (Chuck_newman)
Registered Member Username: Chuck_newman Post Number: 401 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 99.170.65.116 Rating: N/A |
Rob, Nellie, Please, more info on the "units that burn fuel". Are we talking Webasto? Espar? What? Name? Site with specs? Thanks. | ||
| Rob Norgren (Robsedona)
Registered Member Username: Robsedona Post Number: 139 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 75.210.245.71 Rating: N/A |
Chuck all the above. Yes Dear you can keep the coach heat when you get that far I or someone can send you the pages from the Book and you will see the parts that are for one or the other. And some parts are for both :-) ;- Rob | ||
| Nellie Wilson (Vivianellie)
Registered Member Username: Vivianellie Post Number: 329 Registered: 11-2008 Posted From: 75.178.92.43 Rating: N/A |
Wow! Ralph and Rob: That is SUCH a relief... based on that, I'm definitely going to remove all that space consuming A/C hardware. I've got an Onan lined up (only 4.0, but plenty for me) which I'm thinking to install in the compressor compartment (since it's already vented and has an opening in the floor for the exhaust). Then add a belt driven (backup) air compressor where the A/C compressor now sits. Or maybe an electric one, as Chuck suggests. If I go the elecric route, I could add a backup alternator (like you did, Ralph). But first I gotta decide between 12V or 24V house system. Guess that's a whole different thread, isn't it? Yup... Cadillac plans on a Cavalier (used) budget, but gotta keep moving forward (if only in my dreams). Chuck: I'll get that info in the next few days. 'Webasto' sounds right but it's been awhile. This guy picked some up at a surplus sale (in Elkhart I think) and isn't asking a fortune. Send me an email to jog my memory, okay? (Easy to forget once this thread peters out). Nellie Wilson | ||
| doug yes (Dougg)
Registered Member Username: Dougg Post Number: 106 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 67.142.161.29 Rating: N/A |
We have the stock A/C's on our commercial coaches and school buses in for repair EVERY YEAR. Someone told me the stock Setrack roof ac on the Van Hools is better than the Carrier undermount OEM on MCI. Anyone had any experience with the Van Hool OEM A/C? | ||
| Ednj (Ednj)
Registered Member Username: Ednj Post Number: 262 Registered: 3-2003 Posted From: 68.197.93.126  Rating: N/A |
Nellie, Are you thinking "PRO HEAT"? Bruce still has some for sale. Used take outs 12 & 24 volt units. Ed | ||
| david anderson (Davidanderson)
Registered Member Username: Davidanderson Post Number: 247 Registered: 2-2004 Posted From: 69.153.48.67 Rating: N/A |
This "poll" kind of surprises me. This question comes up about twice a year and in the past it has alway been close to 50/50 split to keep or remove. Looks like as our coaches age and those old units get more pricey to keep going, the consensus is leaning more to remove the units and go with some other means for cooling our coaches. Shoot, next year my 1985 Eagle will qualify as an antique vehicle according to the Texas DMV. Our rigs are getting old. BTW, I yanked all my OEM stuff out and run the genny for power to rooftops while underway. Good Luck, David | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 609 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 71.53.155.14  Rating: N/A |
there was a thread concerning fuel consumption,OEM verses genset. It was observed the genset was preferred because, Less wear and better fuel consumption on main engine. It, genset, will use less fuel than the main engine and will be available 24/7.. Fire up the big boy in a campground at 2 bell and see who gets their bell rung??? LOL So the answer to all is,Get rid of the OEM set-up when it is feasible for you and then get set up for converting to use the generator. YEAH I made it Gomer | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1673 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.71.157  Rating: N/A |
that 50-50 usually goes to 99-1 when the system finally needs costly repairs, including freon recharging. | ||
| Jim Wilke (Jim Bob) (Pd41044039)
Registered Member Username: Pd41044039 Post Number: 399 Registered: 2-2001 Posted From: 69.77.144.102 Rating: N/A |
The bus air was designed for a passenger bus that carried 35-45 people and drove more than it parked. That's not the use you need. You need air conditioning that works efficiently when parked for weeks or months and also works when traveling occasionally. This is just about opposite from the original design requirements. Many older church and charter buses are using 4-5 roof airs and a 20kw genset to cool a bus full of people. Less cost & maintenance. | ||
| Laryn Christley (Barn_owl)
Registered Member Username: Barn_owl Post Number: 625 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 151.199.118.239  Rating: N/A |
This is how the OTR air works. Get a wheel barrel and fill it full of money, then wheel it down to your mechanic and give it to him. Come back the next week and do it again, and again, and……… There is a reason my OTR a/c has been thrown into the woods. BTW, I am able to do my own a/c work and I still wouldn’t touch it. My bus quit being original when the seats where taken out. | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 1004 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 208.54.200.122  Rating: N/A |
Pay close attention to what Bill says about placing any roof air as close to the front as possible, it can't be too close to the driver. I hate to think what it would cost to evacuate and refill a bus AC system today and with those long hoses/lines a leak is a sure thing!! | ||
| clint hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 534 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.237.52  Rating: N/A |
I would first ask myself if I was planing to do a lot of traveling, then how much to keep it going. The cost to patched up (would not likely modify for R 134A as that is more than it is worth, unless you do a lot of driving) , perhaps recharge with one of those cheap drop-in replacement refrigerants that will work in the existing system, along with a new drier,NO leak stopper though, fix the leak . Not sure if you have big generator yet, so that and the cost of roof airs installation is also part of the answer as to where on the list this repair would belong. -No you can not use you A/C compressor for your air brakes system, you just have to fix, refurbish and maintain those pesky brakes parts , it if you plan to drive your plan should include stopping. | ||
| Josh McElhiney (Zcommanager)
Registered Member Username: Zcommanager Post Number: 44 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 75.187.41.177 Rating: N/A |
Hi Nellie! I can atest to the high-cost factor of having to recharge the OTR a/c unit. I spent nearly $1700 last summer in AZ while bringing the bus home to Ohio. I was ready to rip the system out when I was writting that check!!! LOL Happy Traveles, Josh | ||
| Josh McElhiney (Zcommanager)
Registered Member Username: Zcommanager Post Number: 45 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 75.187.41.177 Rating: N/A |
Nellie, I second your notion of having learned just enough to realize just how much I still don't know!! ;-) Josh | ||
| Nellie Wilson (Vivianellie)
Registered Member Username: Vivianellie Post Number: 335 Registered: 11-2008 Posted From: 75.178.92.43 Rating: N/A |
Gosh, Josh, ain't it grand? Think how much fun we're gonna have learning all this stuff. And I must say if I had an lingering doubts, your AZ experience put them to rest. $1700 to stay cool? Not including any actual repairs? Heck, I'd have to hole up at an air conditioned Flying J and drive at night! That A/C is definitely coming out... consider it toast. Is there any market for these things? Maybe no good to folks like us but commercial operators need them, right? And I'd think pretty pricey to buy new. I'd be happy just to get enough for a full tank of fuel (and to fix my dashboard fan).  Nellie Wilson | ||
| Nellie Wilson (Vivianellie)
Registered Member Username: Vivianellie Post Number: 336 Registered: 11-2008 Posted From: 75.178.92.43 Rating: N/A |
Gosh, Ed, just reviewing this thread and noticed I hadn’t posted my response to you. Doesn’t do much good to write it, than not POST it! (I write most everything in Word now, then copy and paste. Saves me a lot of, “How’d I delete that?” or “Opps, wish I hadn’t hit the ‘post’ button just yet” frustration). Anyway, thank you, buddy. That (Pro Heat) was exactly what I was trying to come up with. The name was floating around in my noggin, just couldn't pluck it out. I expect Chuck will check back and see your post? If he's interested I (or you?) can give him Bruce's contact info. (I sure hope Bruce has one left when I get some $$ together). Hope you’re doing great… be sending you an email soon, just to catch up. Nellie | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Registered Member Username: Rjlong Post Number: 1618 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 67.182.53.218  Rating: N/A |
Nellie - From monitoring these boards for over 10 years, the vast majority of busnuts remove the big HVAC unit downstairs, as well as the compressor back in the engine compartment. Everybody, however, leaves in the defroster, just reconnecting the water lines. Now, IIRC, you've got a 5C, which means you've also got a driver's A/C unit. You might seriously consider installing a small compressor driven off the engine's idler pulley, along with a condensor mounted on the curbside transmission access door. That way you'd have some A/C while running down the road - not enough to cool the whole bus, but enough to keep you comfortable. Just thinking at the keyboard. . . FWIW & HTH. . . | ||
| Ralph Peters (Ralph7)
Registered Member Username: Ralph7 Post Number: 65 Registered: 3-2004 Posted From: 206.251.5.175 Rating: N/A |
My TMC MC-8 had the drivers AC plus a overhead unit next to the restroom bolted through the roof as well as the evaporator in the heator/AC area. The system was empty of freon cause of a broken line, so out with all AC an the large heator core, just plugged the big heator in/out lines, kept defroster heat. | ||
| Nellie Wilson (Vivianellie)
Registered Member Username: Vivianellie Post Number: 338 Registered: 11-2008 Posted From: 75.178.92.43 Rating: N/A |
RJ - Makes a lot of sense to me (keeping the driver's A/C). Doubt I have the skill to set that up, but I'll keep asking questions and try to figure it out... Would a standard automobile compressor be large enough? BTW, what is "IIRC" ?? Ralph - You and Rob said (above) I can dump the A/C and still keep the coach heat. But what parts are for one or the other, or common to both? I'm looking at my parts manual, but it doesn't seem to be much help. And what's the order of removal? Compressor first (I suppose) and go from there? What can I do with those lateral belts... will they fit anywhere else? Or should I just save them (they're brand new) for a different application? Nellie | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 1723 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 76.68.135.71  Rating: N/A |
Yes, Nellie, you may keep the coach heating system if you want, and discard the AC components. As you know, it sure warms up the coach while underway. And, perhaps of some importance that busnuts often overlook, the stock air circulating system feeds lots of fresh air into the coach. Some choose to maintain their coach AC. The knocks against it may originate in the fact that we inherit systems that require complete replacement, as every bit of it is worn out and if not leaking today, leaks tomorrow. That is cost prohibitive, unless you do all your own work. If your use of the coach involves a lot of drive time, then keeping the coach HVAC intact has some benefit. If the coach sits in a sunny parking lot all day, temperature pull down of the stock HVAC at 80 000 BTU is very hard to beat with the usual busnut roof/basement install. Your camping roof/basement A/C with either a big inverter and/or the generator, gives you a lovely redundancy if the stock HVAC is maintained. Either way, there are some busnuts that delete the interior skins and duct work, leaving the holes up out of the floor, or modifying a simpler set of duct work that compliments the new interior. You'll still need some way to stay warm while parked, but the coach heater is an already installed, robust, redundant system. clear as mud.... happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| clint hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 537 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.237.52 Rating: N/A |
for those with the ability to do basic A/C work, pressure test , evacuate , a 20 lb bottle of drop in refrigerants runs around $240 in the low season, plus oil and perhaps a new dryier. Just don't get smart with the leaks & use sealer, if there is any moisture that entered when the system leaked done or air, it will make a horrible mess setting up the leak sealer. Of course you should have gotten all the moisture out when you put the system under deep vacuum for a few hours, after the leak test with CO2 or nitrogen, idealy; but then there is the next time it leaks: so don't use that sealer, always change the oil if the system is contaminated too, as some oils hold water too, once exposed. - The A/C compressors seals seep down in the best of conditions on the old mci carrier compressors, even if the rest of the system is tight. This is why the book suggest pumping down the refrigerant into the dryier receiver and shutting the valves when your not going to be using it for some time, like winter in Canada. burrrrrrrrrrrr... easyer to just drive south~ | ||
| macgyver (91flyer)
Registered Member Username: 91flyer Post Number: 464 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 74.193.175.110  Rating: N/A |
Nellie... "IIRC" means "If I (recall|remember) correctly" -Mac | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Registered Member Username: Rjlong Post Number: 1620 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 67.182.53.218 Rating: N/A |
Nellie - An A/C compressor off a Honda or Toyota would work just fine for a simple dashboard unit. Not sure where you're at right now, but Nick B (on the MAK board) would be a good source of help. Also, Welch Industries, who has been adding custom a/c units to buses for years, is outside Atlanta, GA. Stockbridge, I think. Another possible source for you. Mac explained the "IIRC" correctly. FWIW & HTH. . . | ||
| Nellie Wilson (Vivianellie)
Registered Member Username: Vivianellie Post Number: 340 Registered: 11-2008 Posted From: 75.178.92.43 Rating: N/A |
You guys are too cool! Thanks. Nellie |