| Author | Message | ||
| Josh McElhiney (Zcommanager)
Registered Member Username: Zcommanager Post Number: 40 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 75.187.41.177 Rating: N/A |
Hey Everyone! I have been away from the forum for several months, but I am back now and trying to catch-up with what has been happening!! Does anyone have any suggestions as to where I can find a replacement muffler for my '61 GMC 4501? It's powered by a 6-71N. Unfortunately, the pavement won in a duel with the muffler when being towed by a careless tow-truck operator. I had to have it moved by two different towing companies, and I wasn't able to be there, so I'm not sure which company caused the damage. Any suggestions will be most appreciated!!! Thx!!! Josh | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1674 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.71.157  Rating: N/A |
NAPA, plus many trucking parts outfits, have listings for heavy duty mufflers by inlet-outlet location and diameter, muffler shell length, oval or round, and some list certain diesel engine muffler flow rating requirements. | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 1002 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 208.54.200.122  Rating: N/A |
Ian, What does this mean?? "Sorry, but the message you were attempting to delete was posted more than 0 minutes ago. You are not permitted to delete messages more than 0 minutes old. If the message needs to be deleted, contact a moderator, who can delete the message for you through the administration program." (Message edited by gusc on October 06, 2009) | ||
| ED Hackenbruch (Shadowman)
Registered Member Username: Shadowman Post Number: 173 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 70.192.178.104 Rating: N/A |
You can also google the Donaldson muffler website for info, that is where i figured out what would work for me. | ||
| Ednj (Ednj)
Registered Member Username: Ednj Post Number: 263 Registered: 3-2003 Posted From: 68.197.93.126  Rating: N/A |
'61 GMC 4501? It's powered by a 6-71N. ?? 1001 of these buses were made between 1954 to 1956. ?? | ||
| J.L.Vickers (Roadrunnertex)
Registered Member Username: Roadrunnertex Post Number: 59 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 67.77.76.19 Rating: N/A |
'61 GMC 4501? It's powered by a 6-71N. Even though the 4501 in most folks mind think it's a Greyhound Scenicruiser. In this case it's a GMC Transit Coach. jlv | ||
| Josh McElhiney (Zcommanager)
Registered Member Username: Zcommanager Post Number: 41 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 75.187.41.177 Rating: N/A |
Thx for the tips everybody! I will definitely check out the Donaldson website, and with some of the local heavy-duty truck shops in the area. Most folks around Columbus are surprised to even see a near 50 year old coach still on the road, let alone know where to find parts for one. And RoadRunner you know your coach models!!! Yes mine is in fact a former Suburban Transit Coach (SDM 4501) from Alemeda Contra-Costa. From what history I have been able to uncover, it spent its time running across The Bay between San Fran and Oakland. | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Registered Member Username: Rjlong Post Number: 1616 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 67.182.53.218  Rating: N/A |
Josh - You've got an ex-A/C Transit Suburban "Muzzle Loader" (front door only)? Manual gearbox or automatic? A/C takes good care of their equipment, for a transit agency. . . Is your muffler the big can sitting on the LH side of the engine compartment between the radiator & engine block? Or is it down underneath the coach between the rear axle & engine bulkhead? As JLV partially pointed out, three different 4501s were built by GM - PD4501 (Scenicruiser), SDM4501 (Surburban Transit body) and TDH4501, Transit Coach. Since you're new to the hobby, including the SDM when you ask questions will help get you the right answers. Oh, and you might call Luke regarding your muffler - he's probably forgotten more about GMCs than everyone on this board combined! 1-888-262-2434, 9-5 M-F Eastern. FWIW & HTH. . .  | ||
| Ian Giffin (Admin)
Board Administrator Username: Admin Post Number: 1292 Registered: 7-1997 Posted From: 24.239.12.139  Rating: N/A |
Hi Gus, As the "Archives" byline says, "Everything that was ever said lives forever, right here..." I have the settings on the board set so that an author can edit their own remarks. If you find that you've said something in error, such as posting to the wrong thread, you can edit your message with simply "..." and the following message appears in the thread "(Message edited by username on date of change)". You can't delete your own message. If you want your message removed, please email me and I will, depending, but the "..." should pretty much do it for everyone. And you have a whole day to do so. If someone says something that someone else corrects or offers more or better details, for continuity it's better to leave the original thought on the board. Nothing more frustrating than answering someone then not seeing what they originally wrote. If what was originally written contains an error, I look at those errors not as errors but an opportunity to learn or, in some cases, an opportunity to teach, interactively. Not like just sitting reading a manual or watching a video; but interactivity I think is very healthy in determining whether an item contains enough info to carry out a task correctly. There's nothing worse than having incorrect information on a particular subject because of an "urban myth" propagated by several or many people without the opportunity to have the information updated or corrected by someone having more experience on the subject matter. A recent thread that comes to mind is the one at BCM about replacements for DD3's with something that "fits" rather than with something that "works". Interesting thread, and I realize this can actually turn out to be a heated discussion, but I think the objective is served by letting the thread take that turn. Just my humble thoughts, Gus. I hope that answers your question. Ian www.busnut.com | ||
| Josh McElhiney (Zcommanager)
Registered Member Username: Zcommanager Post Number: 50 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 75.187.41.177 Rating: N/A |
Thx for the tips RJ! After I went back through and re-read my post, I realized I forgot to include the "SDM" with the model number. I know..kind of a key part to leave off. My apologies for the confusion. I am pretty pleased with the condition of the coach...A/C definitely maintained it very well - mechanically and cosmetically!! Even all of the old reading lamps under the luggage racks still work, as does the bell system. Yes it is a "Muzzle Loader" with a 4 speed Spicer. And the muffler is the "large can" style sitting in between the engine block and radiator. I will try contacting Luke and see if he can help with the muffler. Thx again everyone!! Josh | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1682 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.71.157 Rating: N/A |
Hopefully that bus has a standard design muffler; Some of these babies are insanely priced, such as the out of sight between bulkheads 4905 muffler. | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Registered Member Username: Rjlong Post Number: 1619 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 67.182.53.218 Rating: N/A |
Josh - FYI, you've got the same muffler that's used on the PD4106s, should be available thru the bus warehouses. When you get a minute, can you share the model number of your Spicer 4-spd? IIRC, the Suburban sticks used a different box than the highway coaches. OTOH, manual gearbox Suburbans are pretty rare, far more with automatics out there. FWIW & HTH. . . | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 1005 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 208.54.200.116 Rating: N/A |
Ian, Thanks, I'm not sure yet I understand but it sounds OK!! Because he had a 671 I had originally presumed it was a 4104 and, since I had been through the 4104 muffler adventure, I thought I could help. Then I noticed it was a 4501 and my story didn't apply at all. I actually did delete my post but in a round-about way! | ||
| Arthur N. Gaudet (Runcutter)
Registered Member Username: Runcutter Post Number: 21 Registered: 9-2006 Posted From: 76.185.252.180 Rating: N/A |
Russ, back when I was driving, we had an SDM 4501 that, supposedly, had a 4104 transmission. The company I drove for would occasionally buy an accident bus and rebuild it... this one had hit a house in New Hampshire. So, I wouldn't be surprised if the transmission had been swapped out. I do know that she ran like a coach - quick off the blocks by being so light. It was needed because we often used it on a run that had 30 minutes each way, but needed 35. We had to hit one traffic signal, each way, on red - half stand up in the seat to crank the destination sign (obviously, before seat belts.) Arthur | ||
| Jim Wilke (Jim Bob) (Pd41044039)
Registered Member Username: Pd41044039 Post Number: 403 Registered: 2-2001 Posted From: 69.77.144.102 Rating: N/A |
I think that must be a 6V71 if the muffler is between the engine and the radiator. If it is a 6-71 (inline) I'm pretty sure there's no room between the engine & rad for a muffler. | ||
| Josh McElhiney (Zcommanager)
Registered Member Username: Zcommanager Post Number: 54 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 75.187.41.177 Rating: N/A |
Jim Bob, RJ, Arthur, John & Gus – Yes it is a 6V-71 with the muffler located between the block and radiator. I’ll try to get you the model number off of the tranny, RJ. I’m pretty sure it’s a Spicer, but I could be mistaken…wouldn’t be the first time I’ve had to admit fault or lack of knowledge!!! LOL Arthur, it surely drives like a highway coach…were the SDM chassis’s the same as those of the PD’s? And John, that’s what I’m afraid of, that this muffler will be, as you said, insanely priced! Oh well, I guess that’s what I get for choosing a 50 year old motor coach as a hobby!!! Haha Josh | ||
| Josh McElhiney (Zcommanager)
Registered Member Username: Zcommanager Post Number: 56 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 75.187.41.177 Rating: |
RJ - Quick question, not to sound too ignorant, but with what bus warehouses should I check? Josh | ||
| Arthur N. Gaudet (Runcutter)
Registered Member Username: Runcutter Post Number: 22 Registered: 9-2006 Posted From: 76.185.252.180 Rating: N/A |
Josh, they're fishbowls, not much different from the first generation transit fishbowls (TDH-4517.) There were 95 SDH's, and 116 SDM's built. Single door (muzzle loaders), raised floor with depressed center aisle, and baggage bays. Typically outfitted with high-back, all forward facing seats and luggage racks. Aluminum monocoque construction, so a good horsepower to weight ratio. Monocoque construction means that there's no frame, as such - even the skin is part of the structure. Think commercial airplane, or maybe the "unibody" cars. So, the only thing fishbowls could have in common with coaches might be some drivetrain and suspension components - and certainly the concept. What would make a difference is the rear end ratio, and the stick shift. With a stick, you don't have the lag associated with the torque converter of an automatic. If you can find SteveGGT (Golden Gate Transit) - he may have more information on your coach. He was active here and/or on the other board, but I haven't seen him post in quite a while. The only SDM-4501 that we had would step right out, but she was also a hauler. We served Phillips Academy (think high class prep school), on the Lawrence Mass to Boston line. One Saturday, I was cushioning into Boston, and we pulled up to Phillips. I counted 74 total passengers, (remember, the 41 in the model number indicates seating capacity)-including some of the kids laying in the overhead luggage racks. That wouldn't be out of line for a transit, but for a suburban, you have to be grateful for the invention of deodorant. There's a guy in Perris, California (southeast of Los Angeles) that has a small fleet of suburbans, including some movie buses. Someone here probably has his contact information. If I recall, he also may have some parts available. If not, I'm sure he has the knowledge of what you need for a muffler. If this works, here's a photo - looks like in her later days. http://mnebuspage.fotopic.net/p53219442.html You might want to get a copy of the book "Welcome Aboard the GM New Look Bus" - by John McKane & Gerry Squier. Go to the Iconografix (publisher) website. The ISBN-13 is 978-1-58388-167-5, the ISBN-10 is 1-58388-167-0, if you want to try to order it at a local bookstore. Arthur (Message edited by runcutter on October 09, 2009) | ||
| Josh McElhiney (Zcommanager)
Registered Member Username: Zcommanager Post Number: 58 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 75.187.41.177 Rating: N/A |
Arthur – Thanks for sharing your knowledge, and your experiences with the Fishbowl’s! I wasn’t aware of their monocoque construction. Did they build these as such to help with countering the weight of all the passengers, or what was the reasoning for having no frame per say?? As far as the rear end, I’m very happy with mine being a stick. It pulls out quickly, and when out on the highway, it pulls hills pretty well too! Most of the time, I can pull them in 4th gear with minimal drop in speed (for a bus); occasionally, so as not to lug the engine, I have to drop to 3rd, but that’s only on long steep hills. I drove an SDM which had the original 4 speed replaced with a 2 speed auto, I believe it was a VS – please correct me if I am wrong, and I didn’t really care for it. There seemed to be a tremendous amount of lag from the time you stepped on the Accelerator until the bus actually moved. Perris, California…you wouldn’t by chance be referring to Loren Joplin of Dreamliner Bus Leasing & Service would you?? If you are, that is actually where she came from, via the guy I bought her from. I’ll check with him as well. He does have some parts, but I’m not sure to what extent. My only concern is having to have them shipped from SoCal to Ohio, but if that’s what I have to do, then so be it. Great picture of the Trembley Coach, by the way!! Just like mine with a few minor exceptions. 1) Windshield wipers…mine has “single arm” wipers; 2) I have standee windows, where the aluminum is on this coach; 3) my passenger side mirror is mounted higher. Mine hangs down closer to the top of the door frame. I’ll definitely check out “Welcome Aboard the GM New Look Bus.” Thanks again for your advice and knowledge!!! Josh | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Registered Member Username: Rjlong Post Number: 1622 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 67.182.53.218 Rating: N/A |
Josh - The monocoque construction gives you an extremely strong vehicle with minimum weight. The comparable Gillig Phantoms w/ two huge full-length frame rails weigh approximately 2,000 lbs more empty than the GMCs, and aren't nearly as torsionally ridged. Be interested to know also, besides the transmission model number (located on the side of the tranny facing the curb), what your top speed is in each of the four gears. That could also help determine the rear axle ratio. Yes, a VS would be the appropriate automatic for that vintage SD. From the factory with the auto, it would have an SDH designation in the model number. NIMCO in NJ is a lot closer to you than Loren's place in Perris. Nick's the fellow you want to talk to: 1-800-526-8055. Luke at US Coach in NJ has probably forgotten more about GMs than every GM owner on this bbs. Great supporter of us in this crazy hobby, too. 1-888-262-2434 is his number. What's the full VIN on your coach? SDM4501-XXXX? Could it be this one:  FWIW & HTH. . . | ||
| Josh McElhiney (Zcommanager)
Registered Member Username: Zcommanager Post Number: 59 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 75.187.41.177 Rating: N/A |
RJ - Nice Work!!! That's our bus...Nellie!!!!!! Good Ol' # 175!!! The only modification that was made to her at somepoint was the removal of the aluminum above the windows, and it was replaced with standee windows. But that's her!!! All the way down to the flag holders mounted on either side of the windshield at the very top!!! Also, she no longer wears A/C's colors. She still has the same color patterning, but the orange and green are now blue, and the wheels are painted white. Where the paint is peeling slightly on the nose you can still see the original orange color though. As soon as I can get out to the storage facility, I will check for the tranny model #. As far as the max gear speed goes, I'm not positive, as the speedo doesn't work, but I think it is close to the following: 1st 10-12 mph, 2nd 22-25 mph, 3rd 45-50 mph, 4th 72 mph. I will also try to get some current pictures of her to post here as well. Her full vin # is SDM 4501-070. Josh | ||
| Arthur N. Gaudet (Runcutter)
Registered Member Username: Runcutter Post Number: 23 Registered: 9-2006 Posted From: 76.185.252.180 Rating: N/A |
Josh, right--- Loren's the name that I couldn't remember. If you don't already have a set of maintenance manuals (bus, engine, & parts book), they're a good investment. Given that the SDM-4501 is a "first generation" Fishbowl (something I didn't know about before the Fishbowl book I mentioned), manuals covering the TDH 4517 (96 inch wide coach), and TDH 4518 (102 inch wide coach) would be right. I don't think there was a 4516, but that could be the 102" version of the 4517. I may have my even numbers reversed (odd numbers are 96 inchers, even numbers are 102 inchers. We were trimming trees at church all morning and part of the afternoon, so my legs hurt too much to go get the book. In the end, this is kind of arcane information on the later generations, anyway. The TDH 4519 was the next in the fishbowls, and I think that would be classed as a "second generation - so the associated SDM/H would be the 4502. The followups in the 35 foot category were the 4521, and lastly the 4523. According to the book, there were 3 "generations", so I don't know whether the 4521 had more in common with the 4519 or the 4523 (the associated 3rd generation suburban was the SDM/H 4503). (The TDH/TDM 4515 was an old-look transit). The 4517 was the more popular, so that's what you'd probably see listed. The main problem with the 4517 was a weak engine bulkhead, so yours is probably reinforced. You might also want to follow up with the Ohio Museum of Transportation. Mike Ondecker is the contact. For $25.00 (contribution to or membership in OMOT), he can supply a copy of the final vehicle record for your coach --- essentially, its birth certificate with specifications and options. Here's the OMOT delivery list, your coach is mentioned specifically. http://www.omot.org/roster/GMList/sdh4501.html Arthur (Message edited by runcutter on October 10, 2009) (Message edited by runcutter on October 10, 2009) | ||
| Arthur N. Gaudet (Runcutter)
Registered Member Username: Runcutter Post Number: 24 Registered: 9-2006 Posted From: 76.185.252.180 Rating: N/A |
Looks like I was wrong, There's a 4517 manual on Ebay, that doesn't list any associated SDM for application, and another parts manual for the 4519 that lists the 4518 as also applicable. So, the 4516 must be the 102 inch version of the 4517. Maybe someone else here knows definitely if the 4517 manual also applies to the SDM 4501. I'd be surprised if there was a separate SDM/SDH manual since there were so few built. If there was, I'd suspect it would be a very hard to find item. I think Coach Info has many manuals available on CD - they might be a source. Arthur | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Registered Member Username: Rjlong Post Number: 1623 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 67.182.53.218 Rating: N/A |
Josh & Arthur - The link to OMOT's roster is wrong for your coach - it's the SDH list (automatic trans models). The VIN you posted (SDM4501-070) is listed here on OMOT's site: http://www.omot.org/roster/GMList/sdm4501.html Now, on this list, it shows that the original fleet number for your coach was 300 when it was first delivered to ACT in May of 1961. Don't know if it's fleet number was changed at a later date. After a little poking around, tho, I found this photo of #300 in revenue service for you:  Also, take a look at the note's associated with 70-74 - looks like a sister coach is also being preserved. And the previous photo I shared is of fleet number 176, not 175. No immediate rush on the tranny info, when you get a chance. Since speedo doesn't work, do you have a GPS unit you can use? FWIW & HTH. . . | ||
| Paso One (Paso_1)
Registered Member Username: Paso_1 Post Number: 139 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 142.165.246.239  Rating: N/A |
Hi Josh nice having another fishbowl owner on the board. Great bus I just love the look. Mine was the last 5303 built in Canada | ||
| Josh McElhiney (Zcommanager)
Registered Member Username: Zcommanager Post Number: 63 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 75.187.41.177  Rating: N/A |
RJ, Arthur & Paso - Ok, so 176 wasn't my coach!! LOL But the one you posted about RJ, 300 is!!! That's my girl. When she was first put into service, she was run as coach 300. Then at some point ACT changed her over to 175, which is what is marked above the driver's window, door and roof. Now when you look on the roof, you can still see the imprint left behind from the former 300 marking. Thanks for digging up info on "Nellie" for me!!! I did actually try contacting Mike Ondecker as the Museum is only about 2 hours from our home in Columbus. Thanks Paso for the welcoming! I think fishbowls are just too cool! I remember seeing them and riding on them in the town were I grew up, and even back then, I thought they were cool looking buses!! As my other half always says, "she's a happy bus!" Our cross-country trip home with her was too much fun! Everywhere we visited along the way, we got stopped constantly by people wanting to check her out and reminise of the "good ol' days." Who would have thought that a 50 year old bus would bring about so many smiles and nods as we drove home from Arizona!? | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 1013 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 209.142.172.198 Rating: N/A |
Josh, You can fabricate almost any reasonably sized straight through muffler which has the right size in and out pipes. A smaller straight through will not increase the back pressure and are not noisy at all. I used much smaller ones for my 4104 w/671 and fabricated the connections. Made for much easier installation as the originals were huge and heavy. | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1703 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.71.157 Rating: N/A |
How about this one or they have a 12 inch version. I have a short one for another project. It IS well made. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/WORLDS-SMALLEST-4-INCH-DIESEL-MUFFLER-GM-GMC-FORD-DODGE_W0Q QcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem45eead2193QQitemZ300357067155QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fA ccessories |
