| Author | Message | ||
| Austin Scott Davis (Zimtok)
Registered Member Username: Zimtok Post Number: 375 Registered: 9-2006 Posted From: 216.37.73.226  Rating: N/A |
In looking for air leaks I found one small one on the drivers side air beam where the vertical airbag tube meets the horizontal box beam. Air is leaking out where the weld is at. I don't want to have it welded only to find more leaks in the future so I just want to go ahead and install the block-off plate kits. I e-mailed Luke for pricing/availability on the block off plate kits. If any of you have done this how much time can I expect it to take for each side? Two plates on the left and two plates on the right. . (Message edited by zimtok on October 14, 2009) | ||
| Austin Scott Davis (Zimtok)
Registered Member Username: Zimtok Post Number: 376 Registered: 9-2006 Posted From: 216.37.73.226 Rating: N/A |
Well Luke is the man.... He called me back quickly and set me up with everything I will need to install the plates. Plates, Bolts, Nuts, Washers, Ari fittings, and air lines to the leveling valves. Shipping from him tomorrow to my house UPS ground. I'll probably see them come in next week sometime. Now I just have to find the time to install them. . | ||
| Jim Wilke (Jim Bob) (Pd41044039)
Registered Member Username: Pd41044039 Post Number: 410 Registered: 2-2001 Posted From: 69.77.144.102 Rating: N/A |
Austin, tell us if you notice any difference in ride quality. Some folks say no, some say yes. Engineering & logic would say that the ride would get harsher when the air chamber is removed. You drive enough miles to notice. | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 1010 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 209.142.172.198  Rating: N/A |
Austin, If you have the proper tools for jacking, wheel removal and body blocking you are way ahead. I've only done the front, but didn't install the plates. I have them just in case now. It wasn't too bad except for the rusted bolts in the bag flange and the numbers of them, around 8-10 at each end as I remember. I just twisted most of them off, the bolts were so rusty they broke easily. I think the first side took me a couple of days but the second goes much faster, lessons learned! I think the rear may be easier because access is better but not sure of that. The new type bolt heads are not easy to get into the grooves properly so check very carefully. The bolts are a bear to get into place and get the nuts on. Jack the axle and raise the body as far as the bag will lift it, then use wood blocks to keep it there. It is best to avoid blocking or supporting the body itself, try to block only the beams. If you must block the body directly do it at the bulkheads only. I don't trust them because of the possibility of hidden Al corrosion although I blocked them also as added security. The front isn't too bad but, understandably, the rear is very heavy. Mine had the original type air bags, the new ones are quite different and easier to work with. They also don't have the steel belt on the bag center like the originals. Drop me an email if you have any other questions. | ||
| Tim Hoskinson (Tdh37514151)
Registered Member Username: Tdh37514151 Post Number: 252 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 65.25.139.50  Rating: N/A |
Hi I had a air beam leak on the driver's side rear two years ago. I looked for the leak for several days finally Concluding the leak was in the top of the air beam against the floor where I was unable to bubble test. I ordered a set of two block off plates from Luke with all the hardware. I had ask Luke about blocking one side and not the other as I was short on time getting ready to leave on a trip. He told me that others had block one side with no noticeable effect on ride. I figured I would try it for now and go back latter to install the other side. Its been two years and I have really noticed no difference in the way the bus rides or handles. My experience is only with the rear and may differ with the front as there is less weight as well as the factor of the steering axle causing more load shift in the front. The plates work well and Luke is very good at getting you the wright parts quickly. Best of luck. Tim | ||
| Austin Scott Davis (Zimtok)
Registered Member Username: Zimtok Post Number: 377 Registered: 9-2006 Posted From: 216.37.73.226 Rating: N/A |
Jim, I will try to take notice of the ride quality and report back. But keep in mind that I'm only doing the rear, as the driver up front I may not notice much. I would think one benefit to having a stiffer ride would be less body roll when making a turn. There are a few locations that I drive several times a week where the combination of the road angle and me making a turn that the bus body rolls allot. (things in the bus not contained tend to shift) Gus, Do you install the wood blocks between the axle and air-beam to sort of take the place of the airbag? I'm not sure if the airbags are original or not. I'm hoping too take photos and document this if I think I have time. I really need to get at least the one side done that is starting to leak. Once the parts get in next week I'll have the next Sunday and Monday to get it installed. between the Saturday and Tuesday gigs. Wish me luck... | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1706 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.71.157  Rating: N/A |
If you want to eliminate most of the body roll, install a 4905 rear bar with it's attachments. There are a couple of small attachments that you will have to make, but most is direct bolt on. | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 1015 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 209.142.172.138 Rating: N/A |
Austin, Yes, the blocks go between the beams and the lower suspension next to the air bags to keep the bag space opened up. This is the safest way, I don't trust the Al body even at the bulkheads even though I block them too just in case. Sorry, I wasn't very clear on that. | ||
| John and Barb Tesser (Bigrigger)
Registered Member Username: Bigrigger Post Number: 267 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 96.42.4.250  Rating: N/A |
I will be interested to hear how it affects the ride Austin. I plan to do all mine next year as a couple of the front air bags looked checked and ready to blow and I would like to put a leveling system on at the same time. | ||
| Jim Rink (Fakeguy)
Registered Member Username: Fakeguy Post Number: 153 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 96.11.208.166  Rating: N/A |
OK. I GIVE UP and admit to being a complete dummy. Maybe after everyone gets done laughing, a kind soul with feel sorry for me and explain. I am unclear as to what it is you guys are blocking off to fix air leak. I do not understand which air beam you are talking about and how you can block off a part of the air system. I have a 4106 and am interested in learning about this issue. I would appreciate any enlightenment (pix would be great) (Message edited by fakeguy on October 15, 2009) | ||
| Bob MacIsaac (Wildbob24)
Registered Member Username: Wildbob24 Post Number: 47 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 67.34.62.81  Rating: |
Jim, The 4104 uses a beam on top of the air springs that is hollow and holds pressurized air as part of the suspension system. These beams are bad about rusting through on top where they are difficult to access for repair. The fix is a different style bag with a plate on top that blocks off the air beam. Your 4106 does not have this type of suspension under it. The air springs for the two models are not interchangeable. | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 986 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 75.60.109.64  Rating: N/A |
The air in the beam "concept" was that a higher volume of air might create a smoother ride. Not proven , as many later coaches simply use an air bag , with out the extra volume of the beam. URMV, FF | ||
| Austin Scott Davis (Zimtok)
Registered Member Username: Zimtok Post Number: 379 Registered: 9-2006 Posted From: 216.37.73.226 Rating: N/A |
Bob, You said: "The fix is a different style bag with a plate on top that blocks off the air beam" I am not planning on replacing the airbags, I am only installing the block off plates. . | ||
| Tim Hoskinson (Tdh37514151)
Registered Member Username: Tdh37514151 Post Number: 253 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 65.25.139.50 Rating: |
Austin you can use the same bags you have as the plates will fit. When I did mine I only unbolted the tops of the bags slid in the plates bolted them back up. Then rerouted the air lines. While I was in there I routed a line from between the valve and plates through the rear bulkhead to a air seat valve in the rear bays to release the bag air as a low cost leveling system. Works very well though it takes a little time to let it down and you must kneel down at the bay while releasing the air. To me its still easier messing with blocks. Tim | ||
| Bob MacIsaac (Wildbob24)
Registered Member Username: Wildbob24 Post Number: 48 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 67.34.62.81 Rating: N/A |
Austin, You're right, that certainly is an option. | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 1017 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 209.142.172.252 Rating: N/A |
Austin, As Tim says, there is no difference in the air bags. All you do is unbolt the air bag at the top, make a gap of about 1/2" for the plate and slip it into the gap. This requires slightly longer bolts to allow for the plate thickness but the bottom of the bag is undisturbed unless your bags are in bad shape and you need new ones(A good idea considering all the work involved). Then the air line is rerouted to the edge of the plate so it goes directly into the bag via the plate instead of into the air beam as original. It appears to me that this either lifts the bus by the thickness of the plate or decreases the max height of the bag depending on if you readjust the height control valves. I don't see how that little difference could affect it much but it might. Causing the bags to be shorter might help stop some of the "ocean liner" effect, which is a good thing! | ||
| L James Jones Jr (Jamo)
Registered Member Username: Jamo Post Number: 98 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 24.59.114.207  Rating: N/A |
Is there any way to tell if the bags are still OK? When I bought my 4104, it came with a bunch of extra bags, and not all are the same size or brand. I haven't looked, but it there a date of mfg on them? Is it bad to use "old bags" (I know, lots of jokes to be had here). When buying tires for my Harley, those cheap internet sites sell older (but new) stuff that you wound not want to mount. Same with an old bag? OK, would any of you mount an old bag?? Ha... Also, should te plates be coated with anything where they join the bag? Sure seems like a prime potential leak spot. Thanks.....Jamo | ||
| Jim Rink (Fakeguy)
Registered Member Username: Fakeguy Post Number: 154 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 96.11.208.166 Rating: N/A |
Bob...Thank you very much. Due to the other many similarities between the 04 and 06, I just assumed that I was missing something. I appreciate your response and accompanying info. I am glad to know that this is not an issue that I need to address on my coach. There are plenty of others. Thanks again.  | ||
| Nellie Wilson (Vivianellie)
Registered Member Username: Vivianellie Post Number: 361 Registered: 11-2008 Posted From: 75.178.92.43  Rating: N/A |
To Jamo - If the bags are different sizes, that could be a worry - but, probably, some are 'front' and some are 'rear' (rears being the larger). If they're not badly checked, they're fine. Install them and count your blessings. If you're older than 15 they'll outlast you. Nellie Wilson | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 1019 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 209.142.172.140 Rating: N/A |
Jamo, My bus still had the original Firestone bags with center steel rings and L head bolts. These rings and bolts won't work with the new Goodyear bags. If any of your bags are Firestone it is probably a good idea to not use them unless they are in excellent condition. Even then I wouldn't use them if you have Goodyear bags. The Goodyear bag mouth is slightly thicker and 1/4" larger diameter? The bag mouth is just large enough to push the bolts into a slight angle so they won't go straight into the base holes-frustrating. They have to be pushed into the base holes one at a time. But the hardest part is getting the nuts started, slightly longer bolts would have helped. Another problem is that the upper and lower bases are not parallel, just a slight angle between them makes getting all the bolts into the holes even more difficult. On the rear (Still on the front axle) bag I bolted the top first but couldn't get the bottom bolts in. The second attempt I bolted the bottom first, the top bolts are easier to reach, and I inserted all sixteen bolts into the rings before placing them onto the base plates. One bolt head was twisted and was a real pain to turn but all the others went right in Those new type bolt heads are a real pain keeping properly oriented when trying to get the bolts into the holes. It is very easy to get one misaligned. I recommend marking the bolt head and shoulder with a felt tip marker so you can make sure the bolt head is properly oriented once the bolts are in the base holes. The old L head bolts were much easier, they stay in place. Hit a bolt head with a hammer into every ring hole before installing the rings on the bags, the heads do not fit flush unless you do this and that makes getting the nuts on even harder. It is tough getting the two mounting rings over the bags. I used lots of soapy water and four motorcycle tire irons. The bag bases don't need any sealant unless the metal base is corroded then it might be wise to add a small amount of silicone seal or similar. However, the rubber bag base does a good sealing job if you make sure to clean the metal of all corrosion and rubber from the old bags. Feel free to email me with any other questions. | ||
| L James Jones Jr (Jamo)
Registered Member Username: Jamo Post Number: 99 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 24.59.114.207 Rating: N/A |
Thank you Nellie & Gus... Gus, that's just the read I was hoping for. My bags seem to be getting worse & I'll have to tackle that job for sure next year (or over the winter if it's a mild one). My right side bags, all four of 'em, seems to go flat within 24 hours. The left side stays up for a few days longer, even close to a week. We'd fall outta bed the first night out! Since this seems to be so labor intensive, should I just bite the bullet and order all new bags, plates, bolts, whatever from Luke?? As Nellie pointed out about outlasting the bags, there are times when I'm happy to outlast my fuel. Thanks again...what a great place this is... Jamo | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 1020 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 209.142.172.212 Rating: N/A |
Jamo, I recommend you get at least a full set of bags, bolts and nuts for one side front and back as long as there is no obvious failure now. I haven't replaced my rears yet but carry all the stuff with me, including plates, to do both sides. I also have plates for the front but those bags are all new so the plates are there if/when the beams rust through. I also advise getting plates so if a beam ever rusts through it won't matter. It is far easier to do the bag replacement and plate installation at the same time. Bolts used with the plates are longer than the ones without. At least that will have you ready if one fails. I haven't had a bag fail (Leak air) yet but I found one with delaminated plies during a trip and it lasted a few hundred miles till I got home. They are really tough. If you develop a beam leak it will probably be slow so it hopefully won't become an emergency. However, a blown out bag is an immediate emergency - you don't want to drive very far bottomed out. My bags don't stay up more than a day or two as the weather gets cooler. Someone on the board said that is common and is caused by the air valves trying to keep the bus level until the air is finally all used up. Just because your bags go down doesn't necessarily mean the bags are bad, it can be air leveling valves or check valves. I don't assume the bags are bad unless I see something failing or a soap bubble test says so. Theoretically all the air can leak from the main tanks and the bags still stay up but that was for a new bus. Many things can happen in 55 years. | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Registered Member Username: Rjlong Post Number: 1630 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 67.182.53.218  Rating: N/A |
"Theoretically all the air can leak from the main tanks and the bags still stay up but that was for a new bus." Gus - Heck, I've seen brand new Gillig Phantoms, just hours after they were driven the 150 miles from the factory to our transit property's lot, sitting cattywampus from the air leaking out of the suspension system! Nature of the beasts! FWIW & HTH. . . | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 1022 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 209.142.172.129 Rating: N/A |
RJ, Well, that makes one thing less to worry about anymore! I guess I can't complain about 55 year old ones if they are as good as a new Gillig!! |
