| Author | Message | ||
| L James Jones Jr (Jamo)
Registered Member Username: Jamo Post Number: 102 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 24.59.114.207  Rating: N/A |
Tomorrow AM I'm gonna yank my starter solenoid to see if that's the no start problem I'm having. It clicks only, from either start switch (front or rear). I have no pics to go by, so I'm wondering if I'm going to have any surprises in there? I hate seeing springs and small bits fly out of sight. It's a Delco-Remy too, if that matters. Any pointers??? Thanks mucho.... Jamo Oh yeah...it's in the 4104 to your left. My local Bus Wrench has a new one for $80 if need be, but he told me to clean up and/or flip the copper washer, check for terminal voltage, etc. | ||
| Jack Conrad (Jackconrad)
Registered Member Username: Jackconrad Post Number: 1168 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 68.26.89.176  Rating: N/A |
"he told me to clean up and/or flip the copper washer, check for terminal voltage, etc." When you flip the washer, rotate the bolt it contacts. I don't remember any small springs, just one big spring, but it has been awhile since I took one apart. Jack | ||
| thomas flocks (Taflocks)
Registered Member Username: Taflocks Post Number: 52 Registered: 9-2009 Posted From: 69.205.11.117 Rating: N/A |
if it is anything like a 4106 it is a bitch to get to.apperantaly terry shenks my p/o paid 2600 to have a starter replaced. the only way to get to it is to remove some plywood under where the lavatory was and do it from the inside/ i could be wrong????? | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Registered Member Username: Rjlong Post Number: 1636 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 67.182.48.162  Rating: N/A |
Thomas - Jamo's got a 4104 with the inline six Detroit, not the V-8 like the '06s. The starter on an '04 sits alongside the block just inside the rear bumper. 10 minute job to remove the solenoid. The 4106 starter can be removed either thru the transmission access door, the engine access hatch inside the passenger compartment against the back wall, or from underneath with the coach either over a pit or up on blocks. More work than an '04, but $2600? Wow. FWIW & HTH. . .  (Message edited by rjlong on November 02, 2009) | ||
| thomas flocks (Taflocks)
Registered Member Username: Taflocks Post Number: 53 Registered: 9-2009 Posted From: 69.205.11.117 Rating: N/A |
i have the bill..... i was shocked to see how expensive it was.but it seems my wonderful p/o was never worried about cost and took care of every little problem he found large or small...glad to find out i dont have to tear the bed out if i need starter work. now the question is,is the starter full electric or is it air assist? | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1731 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.71.157  Rating: N/A |
Make sure the problem isn't that small relay in your voltage regulator compartment. Unless it is new, replace it, as the points can burn and stick together over time and not allow the starter to stop cranking.Usually burns up the starter before you can disconnect the cables. Also, check the through the bulkhead battery cable connection. They can be corroded or dirty. | ||
| Patrick levenson (Zubzub)
Registered Member Username: Zubzub Post Number: 116 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 174.91.230.30  Rating: N/A |
fwiw you can just pull the solenoide "pall"? to the left and the starter will turn over the engine if the contacts are still good in the soelnoide...then you will know if it's the solenoide contacts....btw someone removed my rear controls so that's how I start my bus. Oh yeah last year on the road, I pulled the starter, cut back and dressed the commuter surface, cleaned up the solenoide contacts, and re installed the startert, all in less than 2 hours and that was my first time pulling a bus starter. Love my '04 | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 1030 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 209.142.172.171  Rating: N/A |
As John says, check the small start relay in the RR elect box, that thing is a constant problem and is not rugged like the solenoid. It can fail if some of the small terminals are corroded. Jump the relay with a small wire and if it turns over normally you know the relay is bad. Or, you can jump the solenoid directly to the battery with a heavy cable and get the same results. | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Registered Member Username: Rjlong Post Number: 1638 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 67.182.48.162 Rating: N/A |
Thomas - Air starters were not available on the 4106. FWIW & HTH. . . | ||
| thomas flocks (Taflocks)
Registered Member Username: Taflocks Post Number: 55 Registered: 9-2009 Posted From: 69.205.11.117 Rating: N/A |
good to know, we were told it was an air starter? i will have to snake down there and have a look. | ||
| John (John_t)
Registered Member Username: John_t Post Number: 8 Registered: 10-2009 Posted From: 66.244.97.31 Rating: N/A |
Im not very bus experienced but am in cases where a solenoid clicks but she dont crank, AND SOOOOO MANY TIMES the fault IS NOT the solenoid but a bad cable connection or ground (assuming the batteries are good). BEFORE I pulled the soleniod (very easy on that 4104 with a 671) Id remove, clean n wire brush shiny, check n re attach each n every battery cable end and connection and termination and all grounds PERIOD. | ||
| L James Jones Jr (Jamo)
Registered Member Username: Jamo Post Number: 103 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 24.59.114.207 Rating: N/A |
I can appreciate the clean the cable comments. I have been through every connection within 35 feet of the front bumper. Had lots of bad, not too many good. Now they're all worthy of showing them off. Cables themselves all looked good too, and I did replace some of the ends. So...if the starter relay was bad, would I still get the clicking at the solenoid? Which terminals are the correct terminals for jumping (relay and solenoid)? I don't want to screw something else up by zapping volts to the wrong stuff. Thank you for the help... Jamo | ||
| John (John_t)
Registered Member Username: John_t Post Number: 9 Registered: 10-2009 Posted From: 66.244.97.31 Rating: N/A |
Hey, dont forget Im NOT a Bus man (retired electrical engineer and antique tractor and electrical related "stuff") but I can still tell you IF the Solenoid clicks loud n hard and pulls in and its NOT a cable or battery or ground problem, the solenoid start and relay system (like youre asking about) DOES NOT sound like the problem to me, but EITHER a bad solenoid (washer/contactors) or a bad starter. In cases where the lights dont dim much and/or the battery voltage dont drop much, I suspect a solenoid problem orrrrrrrr still the starter like bad/worn short brushes.....HOWEVER if the lights dim wayyyyy down and the batetry voltage drops drastically, then the solenoid is okay and doing its job and I more suspect a starter problem such as a dragging or shorted armature maybe from bad bushings. On my buddys 4104 with a 671 (0nly bus experience I have) its a 12 volt system where a single small terminal on the solenoid receives hot 12 volts (with respect to case/frame/ground) to engage butttttttt if its 24 volts "Im Out to Lunch", however, still if it clicks loud n hard and is pulling in I dont see any smaller sub start relays as the no cranking problem. Ol John T in Indiana | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 1032 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 209.142.172.238 Rating: N/A |
Jamo, This is electricity basics and a good place to dive in if you have no prior experience. A relay is a just remote switch so jump across the switch/relay from the power side to the load side. Same for the starter solenoid. If either jump results in normal starter operation then that part is the problem. If neither makes the starter work properly then the starter is probably bad. All of this, of course, depends on good connections from good batteries. Weak batteries and/or poor connections will give the same symptoms you have. Any or all the above can cause a clicking solenoid. I don't know of anything you could mess up with jumpers except if you should happen to go from hot to ground directly in which case the worst thing would be lots of sparks and a tripped circuit breaker. The 4104 has mostly circuit breakers, very few fuses. I had the same problem caused by a faulty front start switch but, since both front and rear switches give the same results, it is probably neither of them. | ||
| Patrick levenson (Zubzub)
Registered Member Username: Zubzub Post Number: 117 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 174.91.230.30 Rating: N/A |
the way the 04 is set up you can jump the solenoide with cables or whatever . But like Gus says this is auto electrics 101, use the net to look at a bunch of simple circuit diagrams for starters, relays etc.. and use the knowledge to troubleshoot your system. I did a little overhaul on my starter after doing all the checks and it has been a powerhouse ever since....duct tape and all. | ||
| John (John_t)
Registered Member Username: John_t Post Number: 10 Registered: 10-2009 Posted From: 66.244.97.31 Rating: N/A |
This is a good point in the discusion to explain to the original, perhaps not electrical experienced original poster, the difference in a CLICKING CHATTERING solenoid versus the SINGLE CLICK PULL IN ENGAGE sound........ When a solenoid clicks/chatters thats so often caused by a weak battery or else poor cables or connections or grounds......... HOWEVER if it makes a SINGLE loud sharp snap pull in AND JUST SITS THERE STAYS ENGAGED (NOT chattering in and out) but she dont crank over, the problem may be EITHER a bad starter (like worn brushes) ORRRRRR a bad solenoid (likes its washer/contactor is burned) EITHER OF WHICH dont make the battery voltage drop drastically because if that happens then the solenoid is doing its job and its more likely the starter armaturer is bad or shorted and/or bushings are bad allowing armature to drag the field poles grrrrrrrrrrrrr Again if it pulls in and engages loud n sharp (IM NOT talking about chattering here) and stays in, but no cranking, Ima thinking the start relay system (smaller relays n switches etc) and associated wiring is all okay and its EITHER a starter motor or a solenoid problem...... Ol John T in Indiana way to long retired EE | ||
| David Dulmage (Daved)
Registered Member Username: Daved Post Number: 264 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 142.46.199.30  Rating: N/A |
If it is like the Delco starter on an MCI, it will essentially be the same as a car starter, only larger, not that hard to work on. FWIW DaveD | ||
| L James Jones Jr (Jamo)
Registered Member Username: Jamo Post Number: 106 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 24.59.114.207 Rating: N/A |
Results are in... I finally got the time to mess with the solenoid this afternoon. Once I had it off and apart, the problem was an easy one. Lots of pitting. I flopped the washer, cleaned the copper contacts (and all the terminals) and all is good. Best part about working on these old Detroits is you dont need no stinkin' PB Blaster. No rusty bolts back there, eh? Anyway, all is good. Went for a 20 mile ride and she ran like a clock. Grandfather clock. Thanks for the help. I love this place... Jamo |