| Author | Message | ||
| clint hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 582 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.238.127  Rating: N/A |
-kind of over-heard on the TV news, over BC Transit, at only 3 million for each hydrogen bus , the 30 new Olympic buses are hydrogen fuel powered , which is trucked in from Quebec, the power is generated with a Ballard cell converting hydrogen & oxygen into electric power. 400 km range on a ten minuet refill at the expesive refill station. Although is this lavish expenditure account for all the carbon tax we have been paying the last couple of years or the portion that wasn't spent on pre-election propaganda. ODD it couldn't be spent on something modest and test drive this design were it is really needed, not at whistler, as some wing-ding olympic show with more of my tax dollar. Perhaps wiser I think in a smaller scale than the 90 million on 30 buses , until really proven feasable. | ||
| Ken Barnett (Dieselbusparts)
Registered Member Username: Dieselbusparts Post Number: 20 Registered: 7-2009 Posted From: 71.228.110.80 Rating: N/A |
Wow, I use a hydrogen (HHO/Brown's gas) generator on my RTS ex-transit bus that costs me the price of the potassium hydrochloride (KOH) electrolyte and distilled water! It doubles my fuel mileage, seems to me that reducing the amount of fossil fuels and demonstrating to the population how easily they could do the same would be more valuable than wasting 90 million dollars on a very dangerous and unfeasible form of transportation. They tried the same thing with CNG and found that HP is drastically reduced. HHO is used as an additive to the air intake that literally injects oxygen and hydrogen into the combustion! Sorry about the rant, but municipalities owe it to the public to use fuel sources that are readily available to everyone in order to demonstrate the simplicity of conserving fossil fuels and migrating to alternative fuel sources instead of showing how rich and elite that one must be in order to use them! | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 1049 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 69.19.14.26  Rating: N/A |
It doubles my fuel mileage, Really ? How many miles did you go without it and what mileage is now driven with the system to compare. Why is this not used on every OTR truck in the world ,if it works? Many RTS will get 9 or 10 mpg IF they were set up as Suburbans with a highway rear end. Are you actually claiming 18 to 20mpg on the highway? FF | ||
| Jim Wallin (Powderseeker01)
Registered Member Username: Powderseeker01 Post Number: 61 Registered: 10-2008 Posted From: 208.68.48.77  Rating: N/A |
Ballard Power Systems (of Vancouver) has been producing high performance hydrogen fuel cells for years. The issue that is slowing this technology's ability to replace conventional carbon based approaches is the safe distribution of the fuel. As early as 1998 I saw a prototype 8Kw generator utilizing a Ballard cell that was intended to enter the commercial market for around $800.00. Once this issue is resolved, expect to see a whole range of opportunities to consider for repowering. One has to wonder about the effects of alternative "additive" techniques on engine wear. Recall that even turbo's can cause DD's problems and lifetime issues. | ||
| clint hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 584 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.238.127 Rating: N/A |
not going to comment on brown gas as a fuel catalyst (under ideal conditions) in reciprocal combustion engines , but as long as were being critical on wondrous claims - I find it "unbelievable" that a Balard hydrogen cell of 8 kw potential could be built for $8,000 , lest the whole generator for $800, (sound like a salesman of stocks claim); unless some new breakthrough was created; as the ulta-rare metals used in the plates is so expensive, and would only get more expensive if there was ever a modest demand for this niece technology, and a energy efficient method to liberate hydrogen from water, perhaps one day if we keep trying ? The truth is , well the olymbics are a fine place to show case this impractical expenditure , as that is all the olymbics are about, create unrealistic examples with olympian cascades of squandered tax bucks. IF ONLY they would have sanctioned the official "olympic torch flame snuffing" event, I would have trained day & night for that event not settling for less than halogenated the "burning pot" at the pagan game temple. | ||
| Jim Wallin (Powderseeker01)
Registered Member Username: Powderseeker01 Post Number: 62 Registered: 10-2008 Posted From: 173.14.23.49 Rating: N/A |
Unbelieveable perhaps, but as a participant in the project the facts are as I reported. The design targets were met save for the distribution hurdles I mentioned. Maybe the economy of 12 years ago was more forgiving than present day. But I like your approach. Perhaps in the future, instead of trying to share a tidbit of information from my past, I'll just hold back and play arm chair quarterback too. I am wondering how you will ever find the truth while doubting everything. | ||
| Ken Barnett (Dieselbusparts)
Registered Member Username: Dieselbusparts Post Number: 21 Registered: 7-2009 Posted From: 71.228.110.80 Rating: N/A |
I'm not exactly sure, driving from Albuquerque to Denver w/o HHO I averaged about 7-8 mpg and from Denver to Cheyenne, Wy, with HHO I averaged about 15 mpg. My readings may be off, but I don't think so, I did not use the HHO on my trip back to Albuquerque do to in climate weather. My HHO generator runs directly off of a second 12volt generator with no batts or regulator in the way. (Message edited by DieselBusParts on January 09, 2010) | ||
| Ken Barnett (Dieselbusparts)
Registered Member Username: Dieselbusparts Post Number: 22 Registered: 7-2009 Posted From: 71.228.110.80 Rating: N/A |
PowderSeeker wrote: One has to wonder about the effects of alternative "additive" techniques on engine wear. Recall that even turbo's can cause DD's problems and lifetime issues. Honestly HHO helps the turbo and blower to work more efficiently by adding more combustive fuel into the return gases thus allowing for less carbon to be emitted from the stack, cleaner burning, less pollutants, better fuel mileage. As far as engine damage, the only part of the engine that could be effected would be the cylinder liners, piston domes and liner seals, on a v71 that could be an issue, on my v92 I have a water jacket surrounding the liners and on close inspection I can't find any bluing of the liners and my temp gauge stayed in the same range it always has. I have been looking into adding temp sensors into the air box covers, my biggest concern is over heating the liner seals causing the water jackets to leak. | ||
| Ken Barnett (Dieselbusparts)
Registered Member Username: Dieselbusparts Post Number: 23 Registered: 7-2009 Posted From: 71.228.110.80 Rating: N/A |
I can't help but wonder, what changes were made to the 3 million dollar Hydrogen engine other than the injectors? I don't think that the cylinders or liners are any different than the diesel version of the same engine and I seriously doubt that the hydrogen engine is a one of a kind, built for hydrogen use only, my guess is the big money has been spent on fire suppression due to the highly explosive nature of hydrogen. | ||
| clint hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 586 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.238.127 Rating: N/A |
Yes "Powderone" it is from seeking the truth that I came to not believe anything without information to go on . I guess it is time to update knowledge of hydrogen powercells from balard if the price has fallen to $73 per kilowatt of generator, that is fantastic , I assume they found cheaper common materials for the cathode & anode; do tell if you can "Powderone". ~The link to the BC transit hydrogen bus program is http://www.bctransit.com/fuelcell/ and has a few pages now, nothing to indepth, but a lead back to the manufactures sites for more detail. | ||
| clint hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 587 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.238.127 Rating: N/A |
...no there "KB" there are no combustion engine in these Electric drive transits, the fuel cells generate electricity by joining hydrogen & oxygen into water, not unlike the process that goes on in your battery. ~The flammability of hydrogen is less of a danger than propane vehicles as it goes strait up , being hydrogen and does not spread out like heavy "propane" gas does until they find a ignition source, then the heavy combustible gases blow up & the fire ball begin to rise out of "harms way". -I don't now if these buses employ the hydrogen absorbing low pressure metal storage technology or are old school high pressure gas bottles, there are hydrogen tanks on the roof , much like natural gas buses and refill is claimed at 10 minuets for 400 km range. | ||
| Ken Barnett (Dieselbusparts)
Registered Member Username: Dieselbusparts Post Number: 24 Registered: 7-2009 Posted From: 71.228.110.80 Rating: N/A |
I don't know anything about the "Olympic buses" or the technology they use in fact this forum is the first I've heard of it, but hydrogen under pressure is highly explosive, here in Albuquerque they developed the "H bomb" and the "A bomb" I don't recall a "P bomb" ever being developed for military use only as an "IED" by terrorists. My point is that their are many alternative fuels that municipalities should be using as a demonstration to the public, the fact that we are debating whether a fuel that was developed and in production use before gasoline was even considered a useful fuel just emphasizes how clouded public perception is towards, any alternative fuel. I believe that projects like a 3 million dollar bus is just another way the petroleum industry is playing slight of hand with the public, I'm not a conspirorist, but I would bet that one of the oil companies has a stake in this bus and is demonstrating just how rich and elite you must be to own such a vehicle! | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 1060 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 208.54.196.230  Rating: N/A |
This scam pops up about every six months or so and is no more feasible now than perpetual motion. There never is something for nothing in science, never. | ||
| Ken Barnett (Dieselbusparts)
Registered Member Username: Dieselbusparts Post Number: 25 Registered: 7-2009 Posted From: 71.228.110.80 Rating: N/A |
The pages @ http://www.bctransit.com/fuelcell/ are dated 2006 & 2007 this link is more accurate: http://green.autoblog.com/2009/10/12/h2-olympics-power-bc-transit-gets-first-fuel-cell-b/ It appears they already have the buses, the article says that the h6 cells work between -4 and 20 degrees is that Celsius or Fahrenheit? I've never had the good fortune to ski Whistler, but I believe it gets a little colder than -4 c or f in the winter! | ||
| Ken Barnett (Dieselbusparts)
Registered Member Username: Dieselbusparts Post Number: 26 Registered: 7-2009 Posted From: 71.228.110.80 Rating: N/A |
Something for nothing? You mean like air or water? | ||
| clint hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 589 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.238.127 Rating: N/A |
- - -actually hydrogen (PEM membrane)fuel cells used for electricity generators have been around since the days of the Apollo mission & in many manned space craft, as they use hydrogen & oxygen for rocket fuel too. There is even a stealthy electric submarine that uses this method for propulsion. The ones in the buses just pull oxygen from the air, so you only pack the hydrogen. ~ so it is not much wounder that you have heard about it every six months or so in this perpetual motion or manner. + The ballard hydrogen fuel cell has been around for years, Ballard started out in Winnipeg when I was last living there. That was a good application for the fuel cells. Not saying I would invest a dime if I had one, just saying these hydrogen fuel cells are real and do there thing well. - Ballard has a web site if you wish to update your knowledge since the 60's when it was first used for a power supply. | ||
| Ken Barnett (Dieselbusparts)
Registered Member Username: Dieselbusparts Post Number: 27 Registered: 7-2009 Posted From: 71.228.110.80 Rating: N/A |
Truthhunter, the fuel cells you are talking about are way beyond anything that I have any knowledge of. My blinders are set for: HHO, WVO, aluminium-air batteries and bio-diesel, anything beyond that makes my head spin! | ||
| clint hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 590 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.238.127 Rating: N/A |
hydrogen fuel cells are so common , they even used them in that last james bond movie ( the only interesting thing in the entire film, not a single bus, most boring 007 ever yet ), real & working hydrogen fuel cells, been in many Japanese homes as co-generators & UPS backup. -you have to squeeze that hydrogen with a atomic fission explosion before it becomes a H bomb, so these bus haul asses to the Olympics at Whistler aren't as dangerous as you fear KB ! ~You'll have to keep us informed on those aluminum-air batteries, if it doesn't undully twist your head to much. | ||
| Ken Barnett (Dieselbusparts)
Registered Member Username: Dieselbusparts Post Number: 28 Registered: 7-2009 Posted From: 71.228.110.80 Rating: N/A |
LOL, I know, I just hate to see municipalities waste money on things that are so far out of reach of the general public, when they could promote the low tech DIY method of HHO and do something that everyone can benefit from. Here's a link you may enjoy wrapping your head around: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_battery (Message edited by DieselBusParts on January 09, 2010) | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 1051 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 66.82.9.81 Rating: N/A |
I just hate to see municipalities waste money on things that are so far out They are NOT using their OWN money , they blow "gov" (printed ) money for these boondoggles. Nobody likes the Second Law of Thermodynamics , but seas of credit cash keep up the assault on physics. Your grandkids will be paying this off. FF | ||
| clint hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 591 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.238.127 Rating: N/A |
yep gentlemen, it's call perpetual slavery,this tax trough governing, at least up until we reach our extinction point and haven't developed the common sense ability to deal with it as we were too occupied swimming in a sea of cheat & gain. Thanks for the link on the "Aluminum Air battery" dieselbusparts, I will see if I can get this old clunker computer to surf that site. Wasn't even able to read the pdf. files on the BC Transit site. ~Always interested in the assumption that internal combustion processes might be practically improved with a modest addition of a catalizing agent , such the hydrogen injection "brown gas" efforts. Though I have yet to find a claim that pans out as practical, I value the ongoing hunt. ~some way , some how, there is always a few tidbits of creativity involved these "premature inventions" that often get sidetrack by the less creative "marketeers" that have only the goal of marketing and not the refinement of technology in mind. It is up to those that know better to feed the right end of the horse & set a example to those that don't wish to know any better, then we shall all go further. FWITWTY {as the late social re-engineer bill hicks often said about "adverterrorists & marketeers", "just go shot yourselves, if that is the best contribution possible from ya's"},a joke which I don't condone but sadly can not condemn. | ||
| Bruce Henderson (Oonrahnjay)
Registered Member Username: Oonrahnjay Post Number: 517 Registered: 8-2004 Posted From: 68.84.6.83  Rating: N/A |
Gus Causbie wrote: "This scam pops up about every six months or so and is no more feasible now than perpetual motion. There never is something for nothing in science, never." But I keep running into people who have just discovered that HHO works (after all, the nice man who sold them the plans to put two wires in a bottle of water under the hood for $250 on the Internet told them so). I've offered to set up a measurement program with a spreadsheet to quantify the actual improvement. None of them have a "baseline" to compare it to; invariably, the results that they get after 3 tanks are about 80% of the EPA numbers (which are a joke in themselves) and then "they're going to tinker with it a little more to get it working better, because it really works". Next I hear, they have forgotten to record fuel use and "I need set it up again, but I'm getting really good mileage with it". There will be one born every minute. | ||
| clint hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 593 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.238.127 Rating: N/A |
yep, it's all about " how much will be paid for a blief " "but what ya to do about it" besides reason ? | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 1061 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 208.54.196.193 Rating: N/A |
Ask the people in drought or desert areas and CA if water is free. Clean air always comes at a cost. Polluted air is free. Some of these scams may actually work but success hasn't been credibly recorded yet! Fuel cells are another matter altogether, they work well but are VERY costly. It only takes a little reading and research to uncover all this. | ||
| Ken Barnett (Dieselbusparts)
Registered Member Username: Dieselbusparts Post Number: 29 Registered: 7-2009 Posted From: 71.228.110.80 Rating: N/A |
Well Gus if your saying HHO is fake or some sort of scam, you need to look to history: Limelight is a type of stage lighting once used in theatres and music halls. An intense illumination is created when an oxyhydrogen flame is directed at a cylinder of quick lime (calcium oxide),[1] which can be raised to 2572°C before melting. The light is produced by a combination of incandescence and candoluminescence. Although it has long since been replaced by electric lighting, the term has nonetheless survived, as someone in the public eye is still said to be "in the limelight." (Oxyhydrogen is HHO) Or read it for yourself: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limelight You can also cut and weld with HHO, though I've never tried it. | ||
| Ken Barnett (Dieselbusparts)
Registered Member Username: Dieselbusparts Post Number: 30 Registered: 7-2009 Posted From: 71.228.110.80 Rating: N/A |
Mr. Henderson if you are not interested in HHO that is ok by me, if you are calling me a liar, we do have an issue and that is not OK, I don't know you from Adam, I don't sell HHO generators I do sell buses and bus parts, I have been tinkering with these things for about a year, I don't have a scientific background, but I do like to save money, I have been working on a WVO system too, I plan on having an area on my site that would discuss and perhaps sell parts to build alternative fuel devices. A mind is a terrible thing to waste, look into these things for yourself instead of calling someone a scam artist! | ||
| Bruce Henderson (Oonrahnjay)
Registered Member Username: Oonrahnjay Post Number: 518 Registered: 8-2004 Posted From: 69.143.56.202 Rating: N/A |
Ken, I'm not calling you a scam artist -- someone who sells this "technology" to gullible people is a scam artist. I'm sure that you think you're seeing it "work" in your situation but look at scientific work on it. It takes more energy than it gives -- it just doesn't work. Every scientific theoretical study says it doesn't work and every scientific practical study says that it doesn't work. It just doesn't work (unless your electricity to power it is "free") and we know nothing is science is "free". It just doesn't work. I spent scores of hours trying to find info on a setup that would work on my VW diesel. Everybody who said that it worked either said "I don't have a scientific background" or they wanted $250 for a set of "secret plans". Every person who had looked at the theory or practice from a scientific or technical background had data to show that it doesn't work. And I've seen friends (good solid mechanically-experienced types) try it; invariably, a tank or two might look good but then when it was averaged over a little more experience, same thing, it didn't work. Google is your friend. Science is about getting data that tells you something for real. The real, scientific story on HHO is that it doesn't work. | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 1062 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 208.54.196.227 Rating: N/A |
Bruce pretty well sums up the whole issue. The Brown gas system, or whatever other name it goes by, is a scam in that people are selling stuff for over-inflated prices for something that has little or no practical value. It is not free power. You can find this out by searching these archives. You believe what you believe and none of us can change that, it's your money. | ||
| Ken Barnett (Dieselbusparts)
Registered Member Username: Dieselbusparts Post Number: 31 Registered: 7-2009 Posted From: 71.228.110.80 Rating: N/A |
My bus has a 6v92TTA DDEC2, the engine is a 2007. This bus was designed to carry a very large payload (people) it had a monster A/C compressor which I have removed. This bus and any commercial diesel bus that has been converted to a motor home is so over powered that a puny little extra 12 volt alternator makes about as much of a difference as spitting in the ocean. You can say "it'll never work", but I know better and if after a year of testing, it costs more than it's worth, I'll use it as a welder, after all water welders are pretty handy and expensive this HHO generator puts out four very strong and consistent streams of HHO gas, and yes it uses voltage/amperage, but who cares, I drive a bus! Who said anything about free? I pay $55.00 for one bag of KOH and .88 per gallon for distilled water, the stainless steel cost me money and time, I'm sure your bus must cost you something to operate as well, with diesel going back up, and high oil prices. You may want to just keep your bus in storage this year. We need to put this debate to rest and agree to disagree. | ||
| clint hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 596 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.234.172 Rating: N/A |
... so , to quote Kodos the alien Squid, " a valueless scam for some (the ones that are paying for it) and a stupendous winfall of a deal that works for others (those selling it, for sure)" -seems those Missourians got it right with their "show me, I'm from Missouri" ways. ~well at least one thing in life is free, my advice, just hope you enjoy hearing it more than I do ! | ||
| Nellie Wilson (Vivianellie)
Registered Member Username: Vivianellie Post Number: 424 Registered: 11-2008 Posted From: 74.4.48.228  Rating: N/A |
What a bunch of crap! There's been not one thing developed that - bottom line - improves on a well tuned engine in the hands of a conservative driver. All the hydrogen, hybrid, hackneyed and gimmicky alternatives solve zip. The individual vehicle may pencil out great, but factor in the cost to get there plus maintain the creature and it's one huge negative. Old laws of physics still apply, new age idiots notwithstanding. My less than unbiased opinion. Nellie | ||
| clint hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 608 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.238.13 Rating: N/A |
http://www.transitbc.com/fuelcell/download/MOTSheet_FCB_BCMediaCentre_1209.pdf and a U-tube video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvP1nSEB-po tell a little more of the tail. ~they claim double the efficiency over diesels buses using the ballard hydrogen fuel cells to generate electricity. -Were there is water and electricity there can be hydrogen - |