| Author | Message | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 987 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.209.163.136 Rating: |
As one gets more mature (older  )one begins to contemplate the possibilities of more "user friendly" methods in life..... ...in my case one big possibility is the change from the present 10 speed Fuller to an automatic transmission of some type. Ours may be somewhat of a unique situation because in our Crown coach the engine is mounted amidships, pancake style. Don't know if it is even possible, much less feasible. I hate to give up the fuel mileage we have "enjoyed" over the years, but the trade off might be worth it. At the end of a long driving day, my clutch knee lets me know it is ready for other consideration; particularly in heavy stop and go traffic. Any ideas, thoughts, suggestions would be welcome and appreciated. We're just at the beginning stage of this thought process, so time is not a critical factor....I hope. Trust everyone had (is having)a great Thanksgiving weekend! Thanx RCB | ||
| ned sanders (Uncle_ned)
Registered Member Username: Uncle_ned Post Number: 76 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 74.162.29.195 Rating: N/A |
There is a crown with a 6/71 detroit and auto sitting across the road from me. Will look at it and give you more info. The auto in my one 04 is the only one i drive. The one with the old 4speed sets. uncle ned | ||
| Tom Christman (Tchristman)
Registered Member Username: Tchristman Post Number: 150 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.218.33.156 Rating: |
If you have a 6-71 natural or turbocharged up to 300hp, then you can install a MT644 Allison 4spd. If you have a bigger engine like a Cummins NTC 400, then the HT740 is the one you need-you can also install the bigger transmission with the 6-71-the HT740 is just about bullet proof. The only thing is, the Allisons are direct drive final gear, compared to your 10spd that has overdrive (I assume). Take your bus out now and drive on the freeway in 9th gear and see if you can live with that speed. Otherwise when you change the transmission, you'll also have to change the rear end ratio. If you have 3.70's now, you'd have to change the rear end to 2.75 or so to duplicate the overdrive on the 10spd. You could go with a World Transmission that in its' 5 spd programmed mode, has about the same overdrive as the 10spd. The thing is, the World transmission is electronic, will cost alot more and the older 4spd Allisons are mechanical. I had the 13spd transmission taken out of my truck and a HT740 intalled by Pedco in Santa Fe Springs, Ca. While they did an excellent job, it is expensive-about $17,000.00. My truck has 3.55 gears with 11R-24.5 rubber, so my speeds will be 55mph @ 1550rpm, 65mph @ 1830rpm, and 75rpm @ 2112rpm. At 55, I'll get great mileage from the Caterpillar 3406B mechanical 400hp. Good Luck, TomC | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 988 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.209.163.136 Rating: N/A |
Neglected to say this is a Cummins 220 turbo... Thanx. RCB | ||
| Don Evans (Doninwa)
Registered Member Username: Doninwa Post Number: 243 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 208.81.157.234  Rating: N/A |
What about an air clutch? Don 4107 | ||
| Len Silva (Lsilva)
Registered Member Username: Lsilva Post Number: 326 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 72.187.35.208  Rating: N/A |
An air assist can be a big help but somewhat complicated to engineer. A simpler solution might just be an air "hold down". One where you can flip a switch, perhaps on the shift lever, to operate an air cylinder to depress the clutch and hold it down when stopped in traffic. You would then flip the switch to release the air pressure and let the clutch up manually as usual. The clutch would act normally if the air cylinder was not used. While not the same as an automatic, it would take a lot of stress off your knee. An even simpler system is just an electric or air solenoid that locks the clutch down after you have depressed it normally. | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1774 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.71.157  Rating: N/A |
Get an auto shift Roadranger. You can get one that only requires to use the clutch starting out or they have one that takes care of the clutch action also.Check out their web site. Then find a truck salvage place for a used one. This way you'll still have all the gears plus overdrive without the hassles of shifting. I wish they made an angle drive one. | ||
| Don Evans (Doninwa)
Registered Member Username: Doninwa Post Number: 244 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 208.81.157.234 Rating: N/A |
Here is a complete kit to bolt on. http://www.hbindustries.us/air.htm Good luck Don 4107 | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 989 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.209.163.136 Rating: N/A |
Geeeeee Whizzzzzz!!!!....Keep this stuff coming, fellas. Lotsa' possibilities, huh?...I know (knew) absolutely nothing about "air clutches- air assist, etc".Knew they existed, but thought just an assist thing. I have one question...with an air clutch...air assist, whatever. But first a bit diatribe, if I would be allowed: One of the biggest problems with a manual, from my experience, is when one is in stop and go traffic...as in a Freeway accident,(Dallas, 2001), a crowded city street,(Flagstaff, AZ-2009- street after street after mile after mile, last weekend in September), or any given situation that goes on for hours....stop, move 5 feet...stop move 3 feet...stop move 75 feet, etc etc. What is best? I replaced the clutch two years ago (have no idea when it had been replaced previously) but could say that if I experienced much of what I described, it would not be long before I replaced it again....or a knee. (the question) How does what has been suggested above apply to what I have described?.....now then..."sell me"///// Thanx much, guys!!! RCB | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Registered Member Username: Rjlong Post Number: 1650 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 69.62.165.115  Rating: N/A |
RCB - The HT-series will work with your Crown - it was a common option in later production. You may need a shorter driveshaft, minor detail. The 740 is a four-speed and the most common, the 754 is a five speed, available with either a "granny" low or the same 1st gear as the 740. Used a LOT in garbage trucks, btw. The advantage to the five-speed is the extra ratio to play with on those minor grades where "high" gear is too tall to maintain speed. Both are 1:1 in 4th/5th, fyi. A Stone Bennett shifter and you're good to go. Time to start poking around the truck boneyards?? FWIW & HTH. . . | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 931 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 64.55.111.6 Rating: |
Chuck, Lets sift this whole thread out. 1. Depending on the setup of your 10 speed, it may or may not be overdrive equipped. If the model number starts out RT 710, 1110, 13710, etc, then it is direct drive in 10th. If it starts out RTO and numbers, then it is direct in 9th, and over in 10th. The first number or numbers is the tranny's torque rating in hundreds of foot/pounds. So, a RT 710 is 10 speeds, rated for 700 foot/pounds of engine torque, direct drive in 10th, etc. RTO 13710 is rated for 1300 ft/lbs, direct in 9th, over in 10th. Those Roadranger transmissions are the absolute best for getting every last bit of power (and speed) out of an engine while going uphill, as you can pick the gear that will give you the best engine speed for power and torque. I am puzzled by the comment about the auto-shift, as clutching is not necessary to shift a RR, only when starting. There are "air assist," and "air" clutches out there. An "air assist" clutch is just like power brakes on a car, it helps you push the pedal, while keeping the mechanical connection and feel. An "air assist" clutch is adjustable, you can adjust the amount of assist so that you can push the pedal down with your thumb. That is what my 6 is equipped with, and once auxiliary air pressure is up, I can clutch the V12 with my big toe, AND feel the clutch engage! My Uncle put one in his MC1, and apparently it came from the factory with the adjustment set all the way up. The first time he stepped on the pedal, it went away from his foot, hit the floor hard, and stayed there. After a little adjusting, he loved it, and my Aunt could push it easily. An "air" clutch is just like an air throttle, a pressure regulator (looks like a brake valve)connected to the pedal, an air line run to it from the front auxiliary supply, another line run to a cylinder connected to the clutch fork. Works alright, absolutely effortless, a little slow to react, and no "feel." The MT644 Allison is strong enough for your engine, and needless to say, does away with all issues related to the left knee. If length is not an issue, get a 654, as the 5 speeds will help in acceleration, and in the mountains. Cooling the trans is a BIG issue, especially in light of your present fan predicament. It can be done with an air-to-air cooler, electrically fan-cooled, mounted somewhere else on the side behind another grille. In the Allisons, the first number is the size of the trans, the second is the number of speeds, and the third is the series made, with a higher number usually meaning it is electronically controlled, which you want to avoid. Don's advice is dirt cheap, quick, and simple. The only problem with it is nothing exists to take the wear off the clutch disk from stop and go traffic... An auto also makes it at least somewhat driveable by others! G | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 932 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 64.55.111.6 Rating: N/A |
RC, I started this just before RJ, and got diverted. As you can see, we both agree on the 5 speed auto. The 754 has 5 speeds, with less space between them, which is why we both recommend it. The 750 has the granny low, with 2 3 4 and 5 being the same ratios as a 740, and most people never use the really low 1st in a bus, FWTW. G | ||
| Don Evans (Doninwa)
Registered Member Username: Doninwa Post Number: 245 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 208.81.157.234 Rating: N/A |
Some time ago a nut posted a pix of a clutch hold down latch. You stepped on the clutch and then engaged the latch taking all pressure off your leg. I think it was spring loaded so that all you had to do to release was push the pedal down and then away you go. It was mounted under the floor and was a simple hook that held the pedal down. Don't remember how it was activated, a simple pull rod, or something more complicated. No sure which BB it was on. Tried searching without success. | ||
| L James Jones Jr (Jamo)
Registered Member Username: Jamo Post Number: 111 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 24.59.114.207  Rating: N/A |
On the old hand shift, foot clutch Harleys, we had a rocker clutch that you could push beyond "center", so to speak. There was a spring to hold it in the down position, and all you had to do was rock the clutch pedal back to get moving again. Especially good for hill starts, unless you had three feet. One on the brake, one on the clutch, & one on the ground. Funny part...the spring was (still is) called the "Jesus Spring". Every once in a while the spring would either break or fail to hold at an intersection, and that would be the last word you'd hear (scream) as you rocket through the traffic. | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1775 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.71.157 Rating: N/A |
http://www.roadranger.com/Roadranger/productssolutions/transmissions/UltraShiftLST/index.h tm You also can use an air assist clutch; have one on my 4104- car like pedal pressure..or install a brake pedal foot treadle and use a Roto chamber air cylinder attached to clutch release arm; had this setup on the ACF Brill I use to have. It worked nice also, although the air assist has lower pedal pressure and is adjustable, just more expensive. With the Roadranger option, you wouldn't lose any fuel mileage like you most definately will with an automatic. | ||
| Paul Lawry (Dreamscape)
Registered Member Username: Dreamscape Post Number: 599 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 64.40.216.26  Rating: N/A |
I have an air assist clutch in our Eagle, it really does take the strain off the leg. At first I thought it was broken it worked so easily. It's located under the first tunnel hatch, after the linkage from the pedal, down and under then up. | ||
| Tom Christman (Tchristman)
Registered Member Username: Tchristman Post Number: 151 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.218.33.156 Rating: N/A |
Fuller Ultrashift (without clutch pedal) or Autoshift (with clutch pedal) can only be used with electronically controlled engines. The Autoselect can be used with mechanical engines-but that entails lifting the gas pedal everytime you want to shift-it is very hard to master smooth shifts. Personally- the Allison MT or HT is still the best solution for mechanically controlled engines. Good Luck, TomC | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 990 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.209.86.0 Rating: N/A |
Man...what a plethora (abundance...not excessive ) of information! Thanx Ian...and all who have participated...I'm now really ready to "spend the money"!!!...when it becomes available  ; good things come to those who wait, right? But now to further dissect this thread...sort it out, as it were; First, as for the HT MT... which several have mentioned...what is the difference (better or lesser choice?) Not sure if there is disagreement between RJL and George,... or? I think I have "ruled out" any thought of a 4 speed. And have not completely ruled out an air assist or other method as mentioned, but I have to say, the remembrance of the latest trip to the Grand Canyon, (thru Flagstaff and it's unbelievable traffic...honestly have NEVER seen worse-didn't matter what street one was on) I believe at this point, assuming affordability, it will eventually be an automatic. Anybody got any guesses, SWAG or otherwise, what any of these systems might run....complete? (I most probably would "send it out" to be done...to sophisticated for me to do a complete change out). Really appreciate all the input. What a bunch!! Thanx, RCB | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 1748 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 76.69.142.182  Rating: N/A |
oh boy, Autoselect is only for masochists now! Just about all of those that were installed in coaches were retrofitted to automatics. Stuck in the intersection, blew the shift on the hill, rolled backwards... You have to manipulate the throttle pedal same as if you were doing all the shifting...trouble is, the computer won't just ram the gear in like you do when you are a little off. Now, can you upgrade to electronic controls on your Cummins, like a dedicated DD owner could? Then, it's all the way to the latest version Ultrashift for me! happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 933 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 64.55.111.6 Rating: N/A |
RC, There's NO disagreement between me and RJ! To further clarify, the earlier Allison autos were made in 5, 6, and 7 hundred series. The larger first numbers handle more horsepower and torque, and are physically larger, and longer. As mentioned by another, your engine can be handled by a 6 hundred series, while a 7 hundred would be bullet proof. If you have room between the engine and the differential, I would install the 5 speed, (654 or 754) if length will allow a 654, and not a 754, do it. My only point in the previous discussion was that while 750s and 754s are both 5 speeds, the 750 is a 740 with a compound low that is rarely if ever used in a big truck, and in my opinion, wasted in a bus. The 754 has a totally different set of ratios, with 1st being a little lower than a 740, while all the rest of the ratios are a little closer together, and 5th is direct. HTH, G | ||
| Ian Giffin (Admin)
Board Administrator Username: Admin Post Number: 1308 Registered: 7-1997 Posted From: 24.239.12.139  Rating: N/A |
Chuckles... you're welcome. I had to read your message a couple of times... I thought you wanted to spend all your money here. But, as you said, good things come to those who wait. And I am still waiting! Still. Waiting. *sigh* Ian www.busnut.com | ||
| Larry Baird (Airhog)
Registered Member Username: Airhog Post Number: 175 Registered: 1-2001 Posted From: 12.144.222.19  Rating: N/A |
I still have a rebuilt 740 I want to sell. You can also get a two speed converter (slips then locks after each shift) feels like an 8 speed. I also have the air foot conversion parts if your interested, I didn't care for that setup. I have a RTO and use the clutch very little after starting out. | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 991 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.210.19.242 Rating: N/A |
Boss nut.....Money???...Money....what money? OK, OK....HOW did I go amiss...where, OH Nut, did I go WRONG!? Woe is me...?? !!! I'm all done in because of....? Oh, WOE!. (Thanx folks, for all the good adivce...I have other questions, but, alas don't know whether to ask them or not ???!!! ....woe... RCB | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 992 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.210.19.242 Rating: N/A |
Larry....all due respect....5 speed is my choice, hands down, IF I go that direction. Also I am in NM.. a whole LOOOOOng way from CA.... But, thanx for the thought! RCB | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 993 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.210.19.242 Rating: N/A |
Thanx, G for the fineite.. ... the more I "know" the more I am (would you believe it?)....confused. Perhaps I've over stepped my prerogatives here...according to the BossNut?? Lotsa' Great advice...and choices are absolutely a wonderful thing! Thanx, everyone (and Ian) RCB | ||
| David Evans (Dmd)
Registered Member Username: Dmd Post Number: 397 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 173.77.211.93  Rating: N/A |
there are some really good posts here. road rangers are a great "automatic" but it is the stop and go stuff that kills you and nowadays its hard to avoid it. i think wise uncle ned sez it all. He has 2 04's and drives the auto. We now have an MT 644 and love it. It is no comparison. Pay attention to the final drive as many have noted. Start saving the greenstamps! | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Registered Member Username: Rjlong Post Number: 1651 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 67.182.48.162 Rating: N/A |
RCB - Since you've got one of the big, heavy tandem Crowns, I'd really recommend sticking to the HT-740 or 754, not the smaller MT units. (Side note: MT = Medium Truck, HT = Heavy Truck, per an Allison Service Bulletin I've got somewhere. . .) Are there any school districts around you that are still running Crown skoolies? If so, check w/ their maintenance dept., you might find a technician willing to help you with the conversion after hours, and, as an added bonus, will know what's involved! Big Plus, eh? As was said earlier - time to start poking around the truck boneyards! FWIW & HTH. . . | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 994 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.210.120.178 Rating: N/A |
Thanx for that RJ....I think I knew the difference in M and H...just did not really connect it to this application. Our local very large school bus facility did have one guy that had much experience on Crowns...don't know if he is still around...I'll check, tho... From my understanding in this thread, we're looking at the transmission itself, a possible drive shaft change, and electronic controls. I think the rear end this coach has is fine as is....I can for sure "live " with the 9th gear as the top end, as some one suggested. What do you folks suppose it'll take...ball park ($$$$)...to accomplish this? C'mon, guys...a well educated stab at it, huh?... I have hesitated to ask the original question for some time, but now that it is "out"....well,...it's exciting...as a possibility. Thanx again everyone, for all the input. Very helpful....oh, and thanx to the BIG BUS NUT, as well. RCB | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Registered Member Username: Rjlong Post Number: 1653 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 67.182.48.162 Rating: N/A |
RCB - No electronics needed with the HT slushboxes! Either a Morse cable to the driver's cockpit or a Stone Bennet air shift to get it into gear, and a cable from the modulator to the engine's throttle linkage and you're good to go. As for $$, I found a rebuilt HT-754CR (the one you want) just up the road from me in Stockton, CA, for less than $5K. That's just for the gearbox, of course. (http://www.acmeequip.com/) FWIW & HTH. . . | ||
| Ralph Peters (Ralph7)
Registered Member Username: Ralph7 Post Number: 84 Registered: 3-2004 Posted From: 75.211.124.255 Rating: N/A |
I bought a used running take out $500.00, my old used unit needs torn down, cause it was towed, if does not need hard parts, clutches an gasket kit. Labor & parts $1200.00-$1800.00 But thats in a small shop in Md. Some yards $800.00-$2500 for used. MT 644-645 are in old Yard horse (switcher tractors). | ||
| larry currier (Larryc)
Registered Member Username: Larryc Post Number: 288 Registered: 2-2007 Posted From: 64.12.116.203 Rating: N/A |
Hi RC. Hey, the 220 with a turbo becomes a 262. It's a pretty good horse, should be great in a bus. I would never give up the Fuller personally. You only need a clutch to start out, you can roll all the rest of the gears easily without a clutch. I would jump on the air assist deal if the leg is an issue long before I bought an Allison. I think the assist would make you happy and keep alot of money in your pocket, both for parts and fuel... | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 697 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 71.53.153.91  Rating: N/A |
RCB, Have you thought about conin,I should say persuading someone, to go on a cruise and do the driving?? Like greyhound said leave the driving to us. Just a thought, It may be less expensive too???? LOL Maybe Ian will take you up on the offer. I mean all expenses,room and board,stopping everwhere Gheee what more could you ask for??? Oh BTW no none of that?? LOL Gomer | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 995 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.211.48.253 Rating: N/A |
As I read all the posts on this thread, and follow them up on "Google", methinks I'm getting more confused.. . For instance. I have looked up the Allison HT754, RJ, and from the pics I see, there is almost "no way", that I see, that it would fit in the amidships configuration with the pan being so much lower than the rest of the housing...or? Much has also been said about using air assist..but ... since one needs to use the clutch when starting (under all circumstance that I am aware of) how, will that eliminate or solve the problem of "shifting knee"? My wife can drive this coach...and does, on the road; but when it comes to traffic and constant shifting, she is off the roster. I get the duty. And while I can still do it, I think of days ahead when such activity may do me in, as it were. Also, I hate the thought of giving up that great fuel mileage we get with the RR....and I don't read much that assures "good" mileage with automatic.. (AND I do not have the resources as "boogiethcat"-on another board a year ago- to have the option of changing out each time I am dis-enthralled...if there is such a word). Once again...thanx for all the input folks! (It really is helpful) One thing I am SURE of....I'm glad I have a CROWN!!!!!!!! (Sigh) RCB | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1780 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.71.157 Rating: N/A |
The only way you will keep the great fuel mileage is to stay with the manual transmission; Is your knee that bad that you couldn't use an air assist? If you use the Roadranger auto shift and add the required electronics to your engine...what is required? speed sensor, throttle position sensor, etc.? these aren't that hard to retrofit and since you already have a Roadranger, it should fit in the same place. The only thing may be the cost. Have no idea what one of those trannies would run used with computer and harness Otherwise, find a used Crown doaner that had that engine with an automatic. OR find a conversion that already has an automatic in it. There are some great bargains out there. With a full automatic trans, you'll have to add a trans cooler, change drive shaft, fabricate a rear mount, get a Morse or similar cable and a shifter assembly and lose about two to four mpg unless you get one with overdrive. Check the Crown site and see what they are using for an automatic. Who knows, maybe they have a setup that really works nice. This may be off the wall, but how about some kind of hand lever operated type of air assist clutch? | ||
| Patrick levenson (Zubzub)
Registered Member Username: Zubzub Post Number: 131 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 174.91.226.239  Rating: N/A |
kind of off topic but not. you would be amazed at what alittle resistance (weight trainning) will do. I was a long distance runner in my teens, couldn't walk up the stairs without using both of my arms by 20. Didn't realize 'til I was thirty that doing heavy squats and presses were what i needed (thanks chris) Since then I have paid attention to strength trainning for all age groups. They have introduced resistance training to wheel chair bound old folks and have had amazing results (some get up and start walking after only a couple of sessions). So don't give up on that ol knee yet and maybe give me ten good ones while your at it (Message edited by zubzub on December 01, 2009) | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 998 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 70.210.214.60 Rating: N/A |
Well well...thanx for the "empathy", guys. First, remember...(see top of post)...."one contemplates"... yes I'm "weighing the options". Patric- Physically, 'Im in "great shape", according to the Dr at the VA...my primary Dr. But then we all know, that could change in a heartbeat! Exercise daily...have done so for many years, have no real problems with any part of my anatomy..(now now, smart alecs..) ...but, at the end of many hours on the road...and when one gets into a very heavy and long traffic situation, stop and go, stop and go,.....well, that is where contemplation begins. As far as I know, under such circumstances one MUST start out with the Clutch..sometimes many times a minute.....therein lies my contemplation. BTW, Charles Atlas introduced resistance training in the 1930's. Ever read the original Superman, Batman et al comics?... Patrick, I'm not chiding you; in fact, I really appreciate your concern for your "elders"... . JWR...thanx for your added remarks.I use the RR (whether it has auto shift or not..I do not know as suggested in other posts) ---Start with the clutch, then, shift thru the gears...up and down....GENERALLY...without using the clutch. No problem. And GENERALLY, no problem anyway. But a two hour stop on the freeway...stop and go...stop and go becomes very wearisome. My wife will not even attempt it. If and when that happens, it's "here Chuck"....know what I mean? Would like to seek out a Bus Nut with an air assist clutch to give it a try.. Your candor about 2-4 miles less per gallon is very impressive...think of it 4 miles off 10/12MPG...that is a BUNCH. And thanx for being "frank" about it. Your reference to the "Crown Site"...huh? Which one...where? Far as I know, they haven't existed since 1993+- Keep me informed...I may be missing something!! Thanx, Guys, RCB | ||
| ED Hackenbruch (Shadowman)
Registered Member Username: Shadowman Post Number: 194 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 75.211.189.60 Rating: N/A |
Yup, stuck on a hill in traffic or in a many miles long traffic jam......btdt enough times, that when i bought a bus i wanted an auto. Been in one or two since then with the bus and am really glad i got the auto. I can live with 7-8 miles to the gallon because i am not driving all day every day. At 5-6 thousand miles a year it only amounts to a couple of hundred bucks difference, so the trade off is well worth it to me. How much is a knee replacement these days? not to mention the rehab and down time and pain. So RCB, how many miles do you drive a year and how much do you save at 10-12 miles per gallon? Might be something else to think about. | ||
| clint hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 550 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.237.52  Rating: N/A |
...pace yourself more leisurely, travel less in a day ? ~ seems to me chucky , you own your self that much. But if you must bus far, perhaps install a air assist on the clutch. Kind of nice having a 10 speed in a bus, wouldn't want to change that. | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1006 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.210.46.24 Rating: N/A |
Well, Clint...when one has "goals" in life, one pursues them....at least I do. (in the case we're talking about, drive till one reaches one's goal for the day...no matter how long or how short). In between, on occasion, come very "trying circumstances", no matter ones age or physical prowess; on a recent trip to Northern NM, we were on a hill in a construction zone...one lane closed, close to the flagman....(several trucks behind me backed down to wait at the bottom, perhaps a half mile down). Fortunately, the Flag man came to my window and said..."I can feel for you"...and escorted me to the top...a couple of hundred yards perhaps, to wait it out...about half an hour. At that point we were not very long into the trip, moving several feet at a time....when I moved (not often, BTW). IF some one has a reasonable solution for this type thing,other than changing to an automatic please speak up. I'll forget the entire consideration!! I love this RR 10 Speed...but to a point...know what I mean? RCB | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 703 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 71.53.153.91 Rating: N/A |
RC I done went and told you about getting a driver! How much simpler can that be?? Besides you can spend more time with the wife LOL Be nice now!!! LOL LOL You can always block off the drivers compartment if you need to LOL. Be sure to lock the door tho. Gomer | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1008 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.210.97.165 Rating: N/A |
I knew there was an answer.... Problem is, my wife WAS the driver, till she turned the entire thing over to me! ...actually, now that the power steering is rebuilt I'll probably want to spend so much time behind the wheel that all other considerations (issues)will be forgotten... (sure)! RCB | ||
| Ralph Peters (Ralph7)
Registered Member Username: Ralph7 Post Number: 86 Registered: 3-2004 Posted From: 75.209.70.197 Rating: N/A |
RCB, I share your pain, in traffic, even with my auto I set the brakes an put in N. on long waits, hill or not. I tried your phone but it did not work, we are staying here in Alamorgdo till Jan.5. | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1010 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.211.242.106 Rating: N/A |
Ralph...thanx for the re-connect. Chances are, now that things are somewhat back to "normal", we'll be over to see you. I'll try to keep you apprised. Not this weekend...possibly next. Re my phone, not sure the number you have,'could have been my former land line. Thanx for your comments. RCB | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1012 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.209.153.187 Rating: N/A |
As I re-read the posts on this thread, further thought poses even more questions; Len Silva....please elaborate a bit on your suggestion.....is this "hold down" a reality..., or your imagination? Sounds reasonable and helpful, but how is such a thing doable? If it is conceptual, there are probably enough engineers on this board to come up with how it might be done. Lotsa' folks could benefit from a such a doable "conversion". I'm crafty...(ask my wife)...but just don't know enough about air to visualize it. (albeit, I do have the "switch" part of it down pat...know exactly where I would mount it!) You got my attention...finally Food for thought... RCB | ||
| Ralph Peters (Ralph7)
Registered Member Username: Ralph7 Post Number: 87 Registered: 3-2004 Posted From: 75.209.115.194 Rating: N/A |
In our machine shop we had air operated/controlled cutters, on a clutch you can have a hold down, by airing the cylinder. There needs to be a clevis or cable that works similar to cruise control. Now when you release the air from the cylinder, you can regulate the air flow out of the cylinder by adjusting the size of the orfice (hole) in a quick release valve. Simple air supply to a elec over air to air cylinder with a QR valve in line to cylinder. Switch to on air goes to cylinder, holds till you turn off switch, air goes out QR valve. QR valve same as used on front brakes. My MCI-7 had an electric switch on the clutch linkage up front to controll the air assist clutch, you can vary the size of the cylinder,leverage, air pressure etc. | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 934 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 99.39.13.151 Rating: N/A |
Didn't really want to knock the other suggestions, but the "hold down" is still going to require effort to put the clutch down, release it from under the latch, and release the clutch to get going.... An air assist was factory stock on the MC6s, and LOTS of others, so finding one to drive should be easy. Remember that the air assist mechanism can be adjusted to provide any amount of assist, to the point of operating the clutch easliy with one finger. This is up, down, and holding. An air clutch works just as easily, it works with air only, isn't mechanically connected, and in my opinion, is a little slow, and lacks "feeling." Look at the comment above: "Mine works so easily I thought it was broken." G | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1014 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.209.153.187 Rating: N/A |
Ralph....YOU SWAMPED ME!!! I have NO idea what you are talking about... Sorry!. I am quite sure to you it is a "piece of cake"...mull it over and draw me a diagram...or better yet. make one and I'll try it out!. I'll endorse it (or not) and you can reap all the benefits..... Sell it on BNO. ,I@n will be pleased!! George: -according to the fellow in El Cajon, (HB Industries)- see post above with link to their site, there is no adjustment that can be made to their "system".....don't know anything but what I am told . At this point, even chasing it down on the web, I am really not clear on the difference of an "air assist" and an "air clutch" (and most of what I found on air clutches seems to be industrial equipment clutches, not vehicles) other than what has been said on this thread. Actually, the most intriguing (exciting) thing to me is the Fuller Ultra "(no clutch required)" web site. Seems like the answer to retaining my 10 speed....with lotsa' bucks invested...??? STRIKE the bit about the Ultrashift...I just read that one must still use the clutch to start...forward or reverse... Back to basics. BTW...what do you mean "finding one to drive should be easy"? Thanx, both, for the remarks. Hey...I'm slow; paitience, please! RCB (Message edited by Chuckllb on December 05, 2009) | ||
| Ralph Peters (Ralph7)
Registered Member Username: Ralph7 Post Number: 88 Registered: 3-2004 Posted From: 75.211.67.78 Rating: N/A |
OK, the air assist has a switch mounted near the clutch peddle, air pressure regulator to drop from bus operating pressure to what is needed to push clutch. Try to borrow a parts book and a maintance manual for a MCI-5 or MCI-7, take look. NC Bob on this board worked on his air assist system. I have 2 air cylinders at my house, but they need rebuilt. RCB I will try find more info., it is do able, also one may try to change the mechanical advantage (lengthen/shorten) some rods, but you need to make certain the clutch is fully disengaged. | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1796 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.71.157 Rating: N/A |
My Brill used a brake foot treadle for the "clutch pedal". From there an air line ran to the Rotochamber that was connected to the clutch release linkage lever. I imagine that the Rotochamber travel was matched to the same amount of travel the lever made at some po9int along it's length. Of course, most movement would be at the further est end of lever in releasing the clutch and the least at the fulcrum or pivot point of lever. Measure travel and find the correct spot. I did add a restriction to the exhaust port to limit engagement speed to smooth clutch apply a little. Use a foot treadle with more sensitivity though. You will need to read description of the different Bendix air treadles to select the best one. | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1797 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.71.157 Rating: N/A |
Chuckllb, here is what you want to know about the Ultrashift. NO clutch pedal. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrKnEFMSJIQ | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1017 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.210.124.231 Rating: N/A |
Yep...thanx, JWR I had watched one of the Eaton Ultra videos, but had not seen this particular one. Pretty snazzy, huh? One comment: seems like a lot of "things" to remember, but I did not get the feeling that one must "use the clutch" when starting from a dead stop. Also didn't find the use of the service brake (in order to hold the vehicle...as on an incline) troubling or even unusual. I do that even in my truck, which is automatic. My curiosity is high, but I can't find a "used "one advertised, so have no idea if I would be chasing the moon ($$$$). RCB | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1801 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.71.157 Rating: N/A |
There is NO clutch pedal in the ultra shift. If I ever get an MCI or Prevost, it'll get an ultra shift. All the benefits of an automatic and a lot better fuel mileage. | ||
| larry currier (Larryc)
Registered Member Username: Larryc Post Number: 296 Registered: 2-2007 Posted From: 205.188.116.203 Rating: N/A |
The ultra is cool. Call all over the USA though and you can't find one for sale. It also needs a computer engine to talk to. My old 05 Eagle a had an air assist on it that was so touchy that if you put your foot on it it would drop to the floor. 20 years ago, Rockwell bought out Lipe. They promptly closed Lipe down. The Lipe was nice because it was a double disc setup that was very easy to push in the pedal. It was also the strongest clutch made. Today you can still get lucky once in a while and find a rebuilt Lipe. If you can and your linkage is lubed and the angles good on the clutch fork arm, you should have a very soft pedal to work with. Lipes are so strong they are still the primary clutch used in extreme situations like tractor pulling. Damn, now I'm going to have to go dig through the back of the shop again... My father in law is 81 and still driving trucks with Fullers seasonally. Get a trucker to show you how to use the Fuller to work heavy traffic, believe me, we don't use the clutch a whole lot. | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1019 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 70.212.183.182 Rating: N/A |
Larry...thanx for the post... Didn't know that one "needed" a computerized engine for the Ultra!! Guess that put an end (again) to that idea. TELL me...how does one START in ANY traffic situation (after a dead stop) ...without the use of the clutch?... I'm all ears...and eyes...I (and most probably many others) would really like to know)!! Thanx RCB | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1803 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.71.157 Rating: N/A |
Don't need a computerized engine; need to add the computer sensors to yours.Best bet would be to talk to someone at Eaton on what you might be able to do with your coach. Some of their training reps are pretty helpful. My air assist clutch pedal has NEVER dropped to the floor on either coach. Larry's had a problem. Also, if you want to check out automatics, check Adelmans truck salvage web site. They have several models for sale used. | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1021 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.210.2.185 Rating: N/A |
Which Adlemans...there seem to be several of them ...in different areas. Thanx. RCB | ||
| joe padberg (Joemc7ab)
Registered Member Username: Joemc7ab Post Number: 373 Registered: 6-2004 Posted From: 66.38.159.33 Rating: N/A |
Larry How does the Long brand of clutch rate against the Lipe ? The MCI 7 book shows usage of both. Six fingers on the pressure plate verses 3 on the Lipe. Joe. | ||
| larry currier (Larryc)
Registered Member Username: Larryc Post Number: 297 Registered: 2-2007 Posted From: 205.188.116.203 Rating: N/A |
Hi Joe. I don't know. I have not heard of the Long clutches, but I would like to know as well. John, I don't think my 05 had a problem, I bought all the rebuild parts from Jefferson. That is just how well it worked. RC, You are right, you cannot start without a depressed clutch. What you can do is roll slower than traffic in low gear and use some space management to avoid complete stops. The 10 speed is really good for that with the low rolling speed in 1st gear. If traffic is slowing, out slow them and get yourself some space to work with, you don't need alot of space if you use a good technique, and you will rarely need to stop or depress the clutch. Once you are rolling in 1st gear it's rare to find any truckers that use the clutch to shift up or down, you just match the engine RPM to the tire RPM with the throttle and the next thing you know it's 40 years later. | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1804 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.71.157 Rating: N/A |
I think they are same company, however in Ohio is the one I was looking at. http://www.rockanddirt.com/perl/seller.pl?method=show&id=1376 | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1805 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.71.157 Rating: N/A |
You can get a clutch pedal to stick to floor if it is adjusted to go over center, at least in diaphragm jobs. | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1025 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.208.88.154 Rating: N/A |
JWR ...I saw that ad, but did it not mention transmissions so checked a couple of others...same there as well. I am not in a rush and want to "think it all thru",,,know what I mean? Larry...either you have not experienced what I have attempted to convey, or your imagination is not extending itself....try an incline...stop;. go five to 20 feet; stop; 10 to 50 feet; stop go 5 feet stop; etc, etc, etc. The same on the flat, though one can sometimes let the traffic go ahead for a bit prior to moving....unless one is on , say, the Freeway, in which case, if one does as described above, the traffic in the other lane will simply move quickly into you lane...been there too many times. As I previously stated, I really like the Fuller RR...but....... ...thanx for the comments. RCB | ||
| larry currier (Larryc)
Registered Member Username: Larryc Post Number: 298 Registered: 2-2007 Posted From: 205.188.116.203 Rating: N/A |
RC, Imagine having to drive in traffic with a 4 speed with a really high 1st gear...The entire Trailways fleet somehow got thru those days. Looking at your situation with health being an issue, I would immediately install the Allison and be done with it. It is really a cheap fix. Traffic is not going to get any better, you ain't getting any younger and your knee ain't gonna let you enjoy your coach with the setup you now have. I am too used to working with people who all have to have USDOT Health Physicals every 2 years and need to meet certain health standards that would allow driving commercial eguipment more difficult to drive than your health allows. I'm only 61 and still lift weights daily. I sometimes forget that not everyone is a blessed with good health as I have been. The only sure cure for cars cutting in front of you, other than a change in attitude, is more engine, perhaps a Caterpillar 3406 would help solve that problem since it upsets you. I have never let that issue bother me, I just keep creeping along, it's all just part of the job. Everyday before I get behind the wheel I promise myself I will help all the crazys get where they are going without having to exchange any information with the insurance companys. I pretty much yield to everyone all the time, don't have much choice, our area was just reconized for the worst traffic in the nation and it's never going to get any better. My Eagle 20 has the Allison and it is indeed very relaxing to drive when compared to the ancient 1970's 10 speed technology. I tired of the 4 speed and just bought a newer coach. Now I am tired of the little 6V92TA/Allison, "boat anchor", and am looking at 2004 and newer Prevost buses, So far I can't find a nice conversion with a 600 Cummins, but it is a good time to be looking and I'm sure one will come along. If you are going to be at Jacks after Christmas, I would be happy to look at your clutch setup to see if there is anything obvious that might help you with it. |
