| Author | Message | ||
| Edward T McGehee (Bluesman)
Registered Member Username: Bluesman Post Number: 9 Registered: 11-2008 Posted From: 216.220.216.205 Rating: N/A |
Hello to all. I changed my fuel filters and was going to head to Seattle for Thanksgiving. I then went to start her up and only got a click. I then held the starter button down for 6 seconds and watched my dash voltmeter it holds at 12 volts for 1 second and then I can hear a relay or somthing back at the engine compartment drop out ,possibly some sort of overcurrent protection? It also lasts for 1 second then allows attempted starter engagement again. So I hooked up my remote start switch pulled the trigger and the current draw melted the trigger.I then started my generator and used my charger/200A to juice up the batterys.which are 1 year old. I then used a screw driver to jump across the solinoid Battery and start. Nothing just sparking. I have a 1966 TDH 4519 fishbowl. There is a small access panel at the rear bulkhead between the beds. The solinoid looks new. The starter is not greasy. I have banged on both a futile attempt , but has worked on cars for me before. It won't work for me on this one. I attemted to remove the soliniod from the starter but could not get it disconnected. So I read on wiki that to replace the starter on a 6v71 that the engine needs to be pulled.HMMM.... I didn't believe that. Well after 4 hours getting the wiring,3- 15/16" nuts off,the ground cable removed from the end of the starter all thru this access hole, I am now a believer. WOW. If the crossover exhaust pipe from the top manifold was not in front of the starter It would indeed be possible to remove. I think that access is only to remove the solinoid. So there we have it. Any one been down this road with this before? Thanx to all of you Guru bus nuts. Ed | ||
| David Guglielmetti (Daveg)
Registered Member Username: Daveg Post Number: 122 Registered: 2-2009 Posted From: 63.198.18.180  Rating: |
Cut a bigger access hole? Not a bus expert, just thinking outta the box | ||
| Dale Waller (Happycampersrus)
Registered Member Username: Happycampersrus Post Number: 341 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 166.225.43.50 Rating: N/A |
Kind of a pain, but the short piece of the crossover pipe will have to come off. I tied a small piece of rope to help raise and lower the starter on the ones I've done before. | ||
| Edward T McGehee (Bluesman)
Registered Member Username: Bluesman Post Number: 10 Registered: 11-2008 Posted From: 216.220.216.175 Rating: N/A |
Daveg, we are thinking the same on this.The access hole is tolerable, its the darn cross over header pipe. Dale I will bring my land compressor tommorrow to air the bags then block the axles. I can tell from the NEW condition of solinoid and cleanliness of the starter and bolts that is most likely what has to be done. Remove the upper header pipe. The nuts on the U bolt at the header pipe ex manifold junction are NEW. I could not look underneath due to my bags with no air. I only had tie wire to hold the HEAVY starter up. The whole proscess will be fun here. She is stored at the Eagles. 15 degrees and expecting snow. YEHAWWW. | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1009 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.211.242.106 Rating: N/A |
Chihuahua....man, I thought I had problems!!!!!. Boy oh BOY>>>>>>!; am I glad I have a Crown! (amidships) Praying for you,ED!!!!!!! RCB | ||
| Jim Wallin (Powderseeker01)
Registered Member Username: Powderseeker01 Post Number: 48 Registered: 10-2008 Posted From: 208.68.48.77  Rating: N/A |
Did you check to make sure that the bus is in neutral? | ||
| Jim Wallin (Powderseeker01)
Registered Member Username: Powderseeker01 Post Number: 49 Registered: 10-2008 Posted From: 208.68.48.77 Rating: N/A |
Did you check to make sure that the bus is in neutral? | ||
| Jim Wallin (Powderseeker01)
Registered Member Username: Powderseeker01 Post Number: 50 Registered: 10-2008 Posted From: 208.68.48.77 Rating: N/A |
Sorry for the duplication, but I got an Ian error stating that one of the files necessary for the posting process was in use and to try again in 5 seconds... | ||
| Gary Pasternak (Cessna5354)
Registered Member Username: Cessna5354 Post Number: 76 Registered: 2-2007 Posted From: 72.75.140.226 Rating: N/A |
I yours is like the Delco starter I have, you might only need to pull the solenoid, and rotate the contact disk within. It is a copper disk which gets use at say 3 & 9 o'clock. Rotating the disk 90* gets longer life. Depending upon the PITA degree of difficulty vs cost, you may decide for a new replacement. Good Luck Gary | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1792 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.71.157  Rating: N/A |
good time to go to dual exhaust and eliminate the crossover pipe. | ||
| Edward T McGehee (Bluesman)
Registered Member Username: Bluesman Post Number: 11 Registered: 11-2008 Posted From: 216.220.216.156 Rating: N/A |
Gary thanx for that bit of info. I had the solinoid unbolted from the starter,but I coud not get to the plug at the fly wheel side to remove it. I figure there is some kind of linkage for the engagement arm. I now only have 1 nut holding the starter, so I could unbolt the starter to move it and possibly get to that plug on the solinoid. My question is: what is inside the solinoid housing that needs to be disconnected to remove it so as to have a look at those contacts? And how is it acomplished? I am headed out this AM to do battle with it. Thanx again Ed | ||
| Len Silva (Lsilva)
Registered Member Username: Lsilva Post Number: 332 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 72.187.35.208  Rating: N/A |
I would double check all the electrical before going to the big job of pulling the starter. I say that because it happened after you did something (the fuel filters). Some buses use a fuel pressure switch for starter protection. Could something have happened there? | ||
| David Guglielmetti (Daveg)
Registered Member Username: Daveg Post Number: 123 Registered: 2-2009 Posted From: 63.198.18.180 Rating: |
You should not have to disconnect anything inside, it should just slide out of the solenoid...just the wires on the end and the four little bolts that attach it to the starter housing/body | ||
| Frank Allen (Frank66)
Registered Member Username: Frank66 Post Number: 117 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 64.12.116.203 Rating: N/A |
clean alle batt conections especially grounds from batt to starter before taking anything apart Frank Allen | ||
| Patrick levenson (Zubzub)
Registered Member Username: Zubzub Post Number: 135 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 70.52.28.2  Rating: N/A |
from his posts it sounds like it's too late, he's already spent 4 hrs getting the bolts off | ||
| Edward T McGehee (Bluesman)
Registered Member Username: Bluesman Post Number: 12 Registered: 11-2008 Posted From: 216.220.216.199 Rating: N/A |
Thank you all. I may start another thread for the next step, ENGINE CRADDLE REMOVAL. Because 1) there is not enough clearance below the top header pipe to remove it out of the way while the cradle is still in the coach. Bulkhead clearance is the issue. There is 1/2" between the bottom of the pipe where it 90º into the muffler and the bulkhead. 2) I was able to remove the plug at the flywheel side of the solinoid. There is a nylock 1/2" nut holding the plunger to the starter arm which spins that rod when I try to get the nut off. I cleaned ALL connections. I had my son operate the start button while I metered. I had 13 volts prior to engagement. It dropped to 8 volts during engagement.the solinnoid was trying to work. It was clunking with my hand on it. Soooo... it indeed looks like a engine pull to change the starter. It seems that DD would have put a flex style exhaust piece in there to accomodate the starter replacement? ARRGG! How hard is this craddle pull going to be? Will I need to rent a forklift? How long will it take? I am pretty good at wrenching and figuring things out. Looks to me air the bags. Block the bus up at airbag level. Dissconnect 4 air lines,electrical, the heater hoses, 2 header pipes from the muffler, unbolt the driveline.While the craddle is being supported with the forklift, unbolt the 2 lower bulkhead craddle mounts underneath. Unbolt the 2 upper corner craddle bolts from upper bulkhead.Then then back out slowly and level. Any way that's my theory. HA HA.How much is this 6v71 with VS2-8 and radiator going to weigh? Am I missing some or a lot in the process? | ||
| Bill Gerrie (Bill_gerrie)
Registered Member Username: Bill_gerrie Post Number: 317 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 216.198.139.38 Rating: N/A |
Ed I looked in the 4519 book and it looks like you have to remove the one exhaust pipe to the muffler from the manifold then remove the manifold. Not much room but doable. I have a 5303 and I can remove the starter by lifting it straight up. It is very heavy but you can lift it with a rope around your shoulders. I had an 8V71 which has the exhaust pipe further over where the 6V71 has the exhaust pipe in the way. It is tight but should be possible without removing the motor. Bill | ||
| Patrick levenson (Zubzub)
Registered Member Username: Zubzub Post Number: 136 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 70.52.28.2 Rating: N/A |
Just FYI on my bus 6-71 no V the starter can be engaged manually by pusshing the shift lever that connects the solenoide movement to the starter. This means the starter can be engaged if the solenoide is bad. I don't about your starter though. I do know that I like to by-pass all the electrics when I have st arter problems and apply current to the starter and solenoide directly thus by passing all possible poor connections and making sure I should go to the trouble of pulling the starter. Have seen a 6v-92 pulled...l looks like a PITA but probably easier than fiddling in the hole. I would be sorely tempted to do some remodeling in order to avoid pulling the engine, but then on my engine the starter is right in front of you and takes maybe 5 mins to pull, if you don't know what you are doing. I'm sure you'll work it out, just giv'er. | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 1044 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 208.54.196.251  Rating: N/A |
Did you think about checking the starter relay? Not the solenoid, the relay - a small, cheap little thing that is always causing problems like this. sometimes it is only poor connections at the small relay wiring. This is always the first place I check when having starter problems. If this relay is bad neither the starter nor solenoid will work. | ||
| Bill Gerrie (Bill_gerrie)
Registered Member Username: Bill_gerrie Post Number: 318 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 216.198.139.38 Rating: N/A |
Ed Put a 1 1/2" socket on the camshft nut and try to turn over the engine a bit to eliminate any possible problem with the engine. When the voltage drops to 8 volts it almost indicates a bad ground or bad connection somewhere. If you try it a few times to heat up any possible bad connection then go around and feel all connections for heat. A hot connection is a bad one. There should be a ground strap from the engine to frame, a ground wire from starter to frame and a ground from the batteries to the frame. These are in addition to the positive connections. There is a feed through positive connection near the starter through the bulkhead. Bill | ||
| L James Jones Jr (Jamo)
Registered Member Username: Jamo Post Number: 116 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 24.59.114.207  Rating: N/A |
Wow... You guys are making me real happy to have a 4104 w/6-71. The hardest part of getting my solenoid off was the reach from sitting on the stool at the back bumper to get at the lower bolts. No cuts or bruises, & minor greasy fingers. My solenoid was an easy fix...3 little wires to be disconnected once inside, knock out the roll pin (don't lose the spring & washer!!) and pull the washer. I flipped my washer over, as that side was perfect. I did clean it up first, as well as the 2 big copper contacts. Those contacts were no longet the same height, so I filed 'em until they were. Whole job took less than an hour, and that was with my wife helping me remove and replace the roll pin! The ol' girl (the bus) starts like it's back to June of '53. Did I mention how lucky I am to have an '04/6-71? | ||
| Patrick levenson (Zubzub)
Registered Member Username: Zubzub Post Number: 138 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 70.52.28.2 Rating: N/A |
After "refurbishing" my starter in a parking lot, it works so well I can start the bus with 1 refurbished and abused group 31 battery. I cut back the mica on the commuter and sanded it smooth. Total time to pull, refurbish, reinstall, maybe 2 hrs but probably less. | ||
| Dale Waller (Happycampersrus)
Registered Member Username: Happycampersrus Post Number: 342 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 166.229.84.147 Rating: N/A |
1 band clamp on the short pipe to the muffler, 1 clamp on the short pipe to the cross over pipe, 1 clamp on the pipe to the manifold, and 4 nuts that hold the manifold on the head. Then you should have plenty of room to lift the starter right out of the access hole. (Message edited by happycampersrus on December 06, 2009) | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1794 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.71.157 Rating: N/A |
That's right Jamo, sprinkle a little salt on Edward's starter removal wound!  | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 1047 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 208.54.196.163 Rating: N/A |
Jamo, Amen to all that even if we have to make leisurely uphill climbs and cruise slowly!! However, replacing the mufflers is another story altogether!! | ||
| Dale Waller (Happycampersrus)
Registered Member Username: Happycampersrus Post Number: 343 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 166.223.54.2 Rating: N/A |
It's kind of a pain, but not impossible to pull the starter. You should not have to pull the cradle. This is my 6v92 Fishbowl that I'm currently changing the exhaust manifold on due to a crack and no turbo boost. Notice the black carbon on the airbox cover.  | ||
| Edward T McGehee (Bluesman)
Registered Member Username: Bluesman Post Number: 13 Registered: 11-2008 Posted From: 216.220.216.164 Rating: N/A |
Thanx to all on this thread. Dale your picture tells the story. It looks like the starter access on your fishbowl has been enlarged. I looked with a mirror and I have a top access panel that is covered with the bedroom conversion.so I am going to deconstruct and get to that top panel, this will give me the top clearance to remove the exhaust manifold and take the pipe out working from the top down. My header pipe is 1 piece with a u bolt clamp at the manifold and 1 single nut style clamp at the muffler. Johns post describes 3 clamps so there are variations out there. Thank you Ed | ||
| Dale Waller (Happycampersrus)
Registered Member Username: Happycampersrus Post Number: 346 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 166.233.43.135 Rating: N/A |
I enlarged the top access panel 4" longer on the left(looking at the starter)because I repowered with a 6v92 and had to have room for the exhaust to the turbo. It goes up to the turbo, not down to the original muffler. The width is still close to the same, so you will have plenty of room to work. Running the rack, adjusting the valves, and changing the water pump all depend on this panel being able to open. Dale | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 709 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 71.53.153.91  Rating: N/A |
You can pull the starter on ALL coaches,without pulling the top inside off. Problem is; Contortion artist is not in my body anymore and it hurts worse sometimes more than others. My wife wanted to know if I was having rice crispies because she heard snap,krackle,pop and I had to tell her it was me. She laughed of course!! Gomer | ||
| Edward T McGehee (Bluesman)
Registered Member Username: Bluesman Post Number: 14 Registered: 11-2008 Posted From: 216.220.216.193 Rating: |
I got the starter OUT. Happy day. I had to demo the bedroom to get to the top access panel. Unbolted the manifold. Unbolted the clamp at the muffler. The pipe with the mannifold then slid over to the side. I roped it out . Starter and solinoid are new/rebuilt.paint on both are still shiney. I will check them out tomorrow.THANK YOU TO ALL. What a great forum with great busnuts. | ||
| Gary Pasternak (Cessna5354)
Registered Member Username: Cessna5354 Post Number: 77 Registered: 2-2007 Posted From: 72.75.140.226 Rating: N/A |
Ed, Good for you, and now I hope you will have many miles of starter problem free miles... PITA, but if the next time presents itself, this will be second nature. Thank you for the update. Gary | ||
| Edward T McGehee (Bluesman)
Registered Member Username: Bluesman Post Number: 15 Registered: 11-2008 Posted From: 216.220.216.193 Rating: |
Update. I had the starter and soliniod tested today. They said the starter was strong. The soliniod was the problem.The copper disc is about 2" in diameter and 1/4" thick. The backsides of the 2 threaded 1/2" bolts that the bonding bus attaches to the starter and the battery and start cables go to, as mentioned in the earlier posts on this thead, are contacts that touch this copper disc to engage the starter drive. When the end of the soliniod was removed, the man who ran the test was blown away at how badly the disc was warped and that the arc from the contacts had almost welded the soliniod closed.He asked to keep it as it is the worst he has ever seen. He wants to show customers to stress the importance of proper connections and cable sizing. My solinoid is the type that cannot be pulled from the starter. The starter has to be removed to mechanically detach it. They had 4 kits to rebuild it which took him 10 minutes. Costs me 75.00. A bargain at this point. I will be getting another kit to have on board just in case. I think that it is possible to kit the solinoid in place. I found a 4/0 cable that looks like it had been resting against the exaust manifold and melted its insulation thus grounding out to go nuclear.This explains all the new componants I did not notice it because the PO/wrench had shrink tubed it. There is only small amount of the 4/0 conductor left at that spot. about the size of a #2 copper wire. I think this was the cause of failure. It should have been fixed.I am going to Oxarc to get a 4/0 x 52" long welding cable to replace it. Now the real fun part of getting it bolted back in. Oh if you are ever in eastern Washington State on I 90 exit 109 and have a starter ,generator,alternator problem call Inland Auto Electric. 509-962-2368. Louaine Magnuson is the owner. She has MS and is a real sweetheart.They work on all name brand and oddball electrics.For example they have in stock 4 ea 40MT starters for 235.00.I googled and only got 3 results and the only price I found for a CCW 40MT was 504.00. O neils diesel here in town price is 348.00. So with that it is a wrap...I hope. | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1026 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.208.88.154 Rating: N/A |
Ed...Ineresting post... But...would be an easier read....if you would brake thing up...in paragraphs. Thanx, RCB | ||
| Dallas Farnworth (Dallas)
Registered Member Username: Dallas Post Number: 18 Registered: 7-2004 Posted From: 75.88.5.155 Rating: N/A |
I think you may find that the largest culprit of the contact/disc burning is caused by low voltage/low batteries. When the voltage is low or when the batteries are discharged, that contact is the weakest link in the circuit and will heat and arc badly. If it ever happens to you or anyone else again, take a look at the end of the starter where the solenoid meets the starter drive. there is usually a large flat threaded disc there with a cross cut X in it. You can pull that disc out with a large flat screw driver and push on the starter drive itself to engage the starter. That will get you started and to the nearest repair facility or place to park where you can fix it yourself. |
