| Author | Message | ||
| Mike Stabler (64.255.99.191)
Rating: N/A |
OK I have been spying on you guys for years? I have the new house with 30'X60' "study" with 14'door finished! You could damn near convert a bus in there t-hee t-hee! Have been watching the past 5 years the seated/converted bus market go right down the tubes. Something about the 1988 disabilitys act? And the converted bus market because they need "QUADE" slides and 500 to 1000 H.P. to be "saleable"???? SSSOOO..... MY QUESTIONS ARE; I think I want a MCI 102A2,6V92,auto (wife drives great) I self medicate and entertain!! Who has the "black book" (monthly vehicle prices) Who is the "man" with market knowledge? How do you get "someone" to check it out and appraise $$$$$$$ ? Who is the trusted/honerable dealer,fleet,broker? Thanks aka "55" | ||
| RJ Long (24.127.74.29) Rating: N/A |
Mike - An MCI 102A2 is a great coach, but: be very careful, it is extremely easy to overload the rear axle on that forty-foot widebody. Most states say 12K on the front, 20K on the drivers, 32K total for a two-axle coach. They're also pretty rare, lots easier to find a 102A3 three-axle unit, of which there are quite a few running the 8V92TA - just about a hundred horsepower more than the 6V. Also look for a later production vehicle with the powered front door. Early models of the "A" series had terrible problems with the manual door opening mechanism - cost MCI a BUNCH of warranty money! "Black Book" is available from a couple of sources: National Bus Trader mag publishes it's "Roundup" feature every other month, with average selling prices of various models. www.busmag.com will get you a subscription. The other source is an outfit in OR, they call it "The Bus Book", and it's only available by subscription, like the Kelly Blue Book used to be. They are also offering the service online. www.busbook.com is their website URL. "The Man"? Well, there's lots out there. Larry Plachno, the publisher of National Bus Trader for the last 25 years has a wealth of industry knowledge. (Also suggest you pick up a copy of his "Beginner's Guide to Converted Coaches" for a comprehensive thought process regarding buying, converting and operating one of these toys. May be the best twenty bucks you'll spend on your coach!) Luke at US Coach in NJ has been turning wrenches on these things for 30 years, and is another good "live" source. 1-888-262-2434 will get you thru to him - be sure to let him know you were referred by someone on the BNO BBS. Garry Dean, at Dean's Coach in Durham, NC, is another source, also has reprints of all the service manuals: www.coachinfo.com is his website. Getting it checked out and appraised is a little more of a challenge. Ask the three guys listed above for their advice. And dealers? Well, you've got MCI with four locations, ABC with five, Prevost with three or four (can't remember), and then several independents. All sell used as well as new. Depends on where you are as to who's in your neighborhood. You're smart to be doing your homework before shelling out the cash. Too many wannabes do just the opposite, and later regret their decision. It's easy to buy a bus, much, much harder to sell a mistake. . . HTH, RJ PD4106-2784 Fresno CA | ||
| Geoff (Geoff) (64.1.0.85)
Rating: N/A |
If you are looking for 102", 6V92TA, auto transmission in a 2 axle don't overlook an RTS-- 36,900 GVW (for transit operation, but who weighs RV's?). Plus you'll save about $30,000 on a shell over an MCI 102A2-A3 --Geoff '82 RTS CA | ||
| Ian Giffin (Admin) (64.228.43.47)
Rating: N/A |
Hi Mike, NBT's "Round Up" lists 3 MCI 102A2 models. Prices are $55,000. for an '85, $40,000. for an '86 and $135,000. to $145,000. for an '87. NBT magazine states a number of caveats, so none of the above prices are etched in stone. For example, the first question I would be hunting down the answer to is what was so different in the '87 model to separate it from previous years. Although you don't state where you are in the world, you may consider looking at GO Transit in Toronto (www.gotransit.com) to see how they dispose of their fleet which currently contains a number of in-service 102A2s (which I also have my eye on!). Regards, Ian Giffin www.busnut.com | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy) (66.190.119.82)
Rating: N/A |
Suggest you also explore completed or partially completed coaches. They are many on the market now at extremely good prices. Many times competitive with coaches that have had no work on them. They are an especially good bargain if the mechanical work, roof raise or partial interior has been completed. Although some people may say that it is not fair or nice to take advantage of other peoples misfortunes, such as finances, illness or death, my feeling is that if the coach is for sale, then somebody is going to buy it, and it may as well be me. For example, my wife and I looked at conversions for several years but finally found one that met both our requirements, other than asking price. It had been on the lot at Marathon for several months with no offers at the asking price. Since it was priced way above my budget, I made an offer $100,000 less than the asking price, expecting the owners to be insulted. To my shock and surprise, it was immediately accepted. Since there were no price negotiations at all, I could probably have offered several thousand less and it would have been accepted. I ended up with a fully converted coach for the price I had expected to pay if I did all the conversion from scratch myself, and had the use of it immediately. In conclusion, do not be afraid to make a significantly lower offer if you find something that you like. You may be pleasantly surprised! | ||
| Johnny (67.242.221.167)
Rating: N/A |
Have you considered a manual gearbox? Just a thought.  | ||
| Henry Draper (12.82.131.114)
Rating: N/A |
I'll (briefly!) get on my soapbox. I agree totally with Richard. SERIOUSLY consider something done or close to done. You'll be years and tens of thousands of dollars ahead. I bought something partially completed, immediately got on the road and have been enjoying the task of "completing" it, project by project. Unless your dream is to BUILD a conversion--"your way"--rather than USE one, consider Richard's and my "way." Buy something already ready for the "highway." (That just popped out, I couldn't help it. An Ali moment, I guess!) Henry Draper '64 Eagle Edmonds, WA | ||
| RJ Long (24.127.74.29) Rating: N/A |
Mike - Some additional thoughts: Much as I respect Geoff's talent and knowledge, I have to add a couple of caveats to his suggestions. First, the RTS is a transit bus, so it doesn't have the underbay storage, unless you want to construct them, and even so, they're quite small, comparatively. In addition, you have the protruding wheelwells inside to work around, which adds further challenges to the project, as well as closing off the rear door and rebuilding the front from a bi-fold to sedan type. With the V-drive powertrain layout, you are also limited to the set-up he has for power - the 350 hp 6V92TA with a three-speed Allison V-730. In the T-drive MCI, you can get the 450-500 hp 8V92TA and either four or five speed Allison automatics, or even plug in a Cat. Don't misunderstand me, Geoff's got a GORGEOUS RTS, and he's right to be proud of it. Just filling in a few blanks for you. Another point I'd like to share here is the axle weight thing. Yes, the two axle RTS is rated at 36,900 for transit use. But the Federal regs are 32K max on the highways, except for transit use within city limits. God forbid, but if you ever had an accident, a liar-for-hire insisted on having your coach weighed, and you were found to be over the 32K limit, things could get real nasty real quick. Err on the side of caution. . . Richard and Henry's remarks are right on, something to really consider. Most wives who drive prefer the automatic, so even if you're like Johnny and love to drive a manual, keeping Mama happy comes first. HTH, RJ PD4106-2784 Fresno CA | ||
| Mike Eades (Mike4905) (206.148.164.183)
Rating: N/A |
I bought four years ago. Almost completed. I have been working on it from day and I love it. I did repower and I think I am still ahead of the game. I ahd a 34' motorhome that was great but would not stand up to the work I wanted to do. Now a 4905 with a new engine and the tender loving care of U.S. Coach and Luke and Bill. I have very few problems. I have changed somethings that were in it, House ref, washer,dryer,some new furniture, new kitchen and eating area. Next will be a new bath. Still easier than starting from scratch. Mike | ||
| Peter (Sdibaja) (67.115.10.62)
Rating: N/A |
We bought our 4905 exactly 1 year ago for $20,050. She had been completely converted for 10 years and in operation for about 2. The owner who converted her fell ill, the next owner only put about 7,000 miles on her in 2 years. The conversion was done professionally in the very early 90’s at a cost (just the conversion) of over $65,000 (I have the receipts for that much). The engine and trans (8v71 & Allison 730 automatic) were totally rebuilt about 3 years ago (I have receipts for that too, about $18k if I remember right). So far: she was my primary residence for 7 months, now she is in a RV storage lot when not in use. We have made 7 significant trips, average 2500 miles each (18000 miles total) and have spent less than $600 on repairs. The conversion was not quite how I would do it if I were to start from scratch, rather close, so I am making minor changes between trips. We still have less than $26,000 TOTAL in her… purchase, tax, license, insurance, repairs, service, fuel… Everything! I suggest you keep looking and find a complete conversion that is near to your liking and go from there… you are in a buyer’s market. Peter | ||
| Geoff (Geoff) (64.1.1.24)
Rating: N/A |
I always enjoy someone "filling in the blanks" (thanks, RJ!)-- this allows me to dispell the objections to converting a stainless steel RTS. First of all, the storage bays are not that small-- 20"x60"x90" (app) and you can get two of them in a 40' bus. PLUS those are just for storage-- there are two more "bays" available for tanks, generator, extra batteries or whatever. The rear door can be covered with panels and the front door changed to a one-piece door with parts from R&M, along with bay doors and window inserts. The inside wheel wells are easily covered with furniture, and you have a FLAT floor with two entry steps and a 6'8' ceiling so the roof doesn't have to be raised. The RTS has great sliding windows that put intercity buses to shame, and the 6V92TA/V730 commonly found in these buses has plenty of power when pumped up to 350HP. If you want an 8V92TA it would even be possible to install one. I am always amazed by the people who dismiss the RTS as a "transit" and can't see past that for the great bus it is to convert (and drive)-- even if there weren't over 20,000 of them made and flooding the market with low prices, they would still be a great bargain at any price. So do you want to spend $45,000+ for an MCI102? or even $15,000 for an MCI 9 when you can get an RTS? A lot of people besides me are saying NO! Geoff (getting off his Delo 100 40 wt box) | ||
| RJ Long (24.127.74.29) Rating: N/A |
Mike - Just so you know, Geoff and I frequently "tease" each other on these message boards. All in good fun, because we both respect each other's perspective. He's also a fine Detroit technician, and has provided bookshelves full of valuable "inside" information on the two-strokes. He knows that I like the RTS, and consider it the best choice for a conversion if one is going to use a transit shell. They're a great coach to drive, and, like most GM-engineered coaches, are relatively simple to work on. He also knows that my preference is for the highway models, and teases me appropriately about it. Like I said before, he's got a GORGEOUS coach that he's rightfully proud of - even if it does look like a giant, first generation Toyota mini-van pumped full of steroids. . . (J/K, Geoff, J/K!!) 8^) RJ (Slippin' some slick silicone under Geoff's Delo box. . .) | ||
| Don KS/TX (67.210.125.70)
Rating: N/A |
Nobody even pointed out that them there RTS critters can turn so sharp, I think they pivot on one rear wheel! Sure made my 4905 seem like an elephant with some sort of disease. A real handy trait to have for sure. Did you know that a 40 ft RTS will turn in a less circle than a 35 ft 4106? | ||
| Johnny (67.242.221.226)
Rating: N/A |
"Most wives who drive prefer the automatic, so even if you're like Johnny and love to drive a manual, keeping Mama happy comes first." The wife won't drive the bus.........and the downside is what........? | ||
| FAST FRED (209.26.115.228) Rating: N/A |
"Did you know that a 40 ft RTS will turn in a less circle than a 35 ft 4106?" If you chose wisely the front goodies from a scrap RTS will fit on your 4905. It should help U turns a great deal. IF only they were a Quick fit with air disc brakes , life would be grand!!! FAST FRED | ||
| RJ Long (24.127.74.29) Rating: N/A |
And the 45-foot Setras turn even sharper - 39'9", according to their spec sheets. Johnny - the downside is if you're at a campsite somewhere, and something happens to you, Mama can't get behind the wheel and get you home. RJ | ||
| Stephen Fessenden (Sffess) (65.130.8.236)
Rating: N/A |
I thought the 4905 already had the tight turning front end. | ||
| Don KS/TX (67.210.125.249)
Rating: N/A |
Never. As I recall, the 4905 offered the largest turning circle, the longest wheelbase, and the biggest cargo space of any bus, and is also the sweetest one out there. Anyone got some challenges to that? | ||
| RJ Long (24.127.74.29) Rating: N/A |
No challenges at all, Don, and here's the specs being talked about, everyone, regarding the forty-foot 4905, MC-9, Eagle, RTS, and Setra 215HDH, and, for laughs, my "little" 4106. So, this gives you a bunch of comparison specs to mull over and use for telling war stories around the campfire, ok? (All the turning circle numbers, btw, are measured over the outside body corner, not the front wheel.) 4905: Turning Circle: 49' Wheelbase: 318.54" Baggage Space: 403 cu.ft. MC-9: Turning Circle: 50'7" Wheelbase: 285" Baggage Space: 300 cu.ft Eagle (10): Turning Circle: 42'6" Wheelbase: 285.5" Baggage Space: 330 cu.ft. RTS (102"): Turning Circle: 44' Wheelbase: 298.7" Baggage Space: Build your own Setra: Turning Circle: 34'1.5" Wheelbase: 216" Baggage Space: 370 cu.ft. 4106: Turning Circle: 42' Wheelbase: 261" Baggage Space: 205 cu.ft. Hmmmm. . . Maybe I'll put together a spreadsheet with all this spec stuff. . . RJ PD4106-2784 Fresno CA | ||
| Johnny (67.241.166.117)
Rating: N/A |
RJ: That's why we have a toad. She can drive that (she should be able to, since it's her car). | ||
| Sam Sperbeck (206.230.105.250) Rating: N/A |
RJ Long, Would you check the wheelbase comparison of the MC-9 to the Eagle-10 again please? I don't know where the wheelbase is measured on a bus with a tag or pusher axle but, if they are measured at the drive axle it seems to me there would be quite a difference between an MC-9 and an Eagle-10. I am guessing you are getting your information from spec. sheets so the numbers are most likely right. But, maybe you would tell me where wheelbase is measured on the rear. Thanks for all the great information you provide to these discussions, Sam | ||
| RJ Long (24.127.74.29) Rating: N/A |
Sam - The wheelbase is measured from the centerline of the front axle to the centerline of the drive axle. The specs I posted are directly off the respective manufacturer's sales brochures for the models indicated. I double-checked, as you requested, and the figures posted previously are correct. HTH, RJ PD4106-2784 Fresno CA | ||
| Henry R. Bergman, Jr. (Henryofcj) (65.194.145.49)
Rating: N/A |
Well, I will have ALL you know that my 1974 Crown Super Coach 40-foot 3-axle 10-wheeler ex-schoolie stripped shell bus motorhome project (wew!!)..... ....has to have the GREATEST turning circle than ANY of your coaches, soosssss there! I mean, I just don't make wide left hand turns...I yell out, "hard left rudder!" and just prey I make the turn! He he he. And tight right hand turns in town are simply out of the question. Gots to make 3 left hand turns instead of one right hand one, just like J. Egar Hoover did. Has something to do with the 16,000 front axle.... ....with the limited 33% front wheel turning cut. Am going to have a heavy duty front end specialist look at it so see if something can not be done. May be $money$ well spent. Thanks. Henry of CJ. | ||
| Don KS/TX (67.210.125.211)
Rating: N/A |
Great info RJ, boy did I ever get shot down. Well, I still got the longest wheelbase and cargo space right.. I have no books with me here on vacation, but as I recall the bus specs liked to measure several distances for radius, ft bumper, front tire, etc, are you sure on the MC9? I have a friend with a 4106 and his son has an RTS. I was quoting them, their particular buses allow the RTS to beat the 4106. Wonder if different years make a difference, or just adjustments on steering stops on their buses. One other one that blows me away is the Eagle 01. Have the specs for that short turner champion? | ||
| Geoff (Geoff) (64.1.2.72)
Rating: N/A |
When you look at the turning specs you should look at the wheel base at the same time-- the Setra has the lowest turn radius AND the shortest wheel base. I am not that familiar with Setras-- how do they have such a short wheel base-- is it a 35' bus, a lot of rear overhang or what? BTW, I've "flipped a U" on a 4 lane street with my RTS (the best bus to convert, period--hee hee), and you feel like you are pivoting a wall! --Geoff '82 RTS CA | ||
| Stephen Fessenden (Sffess) (65.130.17.60)
Rating: N/A |
Don, the 4905 may have a fairly large tuning radius but I believe it already has the same front end steering angles as any of the later GMs. I don't think you can put another front end in it and make the turning radius smaller. We discussed that at Bussin' 2001 when we were looking at the 4104 with the Flxible transit front end. Was told it was not possible to improve the 4905 turning radius. This is from memory. I could be wrong. | ||
| RJ Long (24.127.74.29) Rating: N/A |
Geoff - The Setra specs quoted above are for their forty-foot S215HDH model tour coach. Here's a link to Setra's webpage: http://www.setrausa.com where you can view both the 215 and the 217 models. They come stock with IFS and steerable tags, and yes, quite a bit of both front and rear overhang. (Side note: Aesthetically speaking, the forty-five foot Setra seems to have the one of the best "looks" among the first generation 45s.) Henry - The only info I have on the Crowns is the wheelbase on your coach, which they published as 258" - that's front axle to first drive axle, btw. No turning circle data, at least in the literature I have. And yes, me thinks you should have a good HD front-end shop look at that front suspension. . . Don - Nah, you didn't get shot down. . . just "winged"! LOL All the turning circle spec data I posted earlier was for the outside body corner, to be as consistent as possible. Don't know why the difference with your friend's two coaches, but you probably hit on it - steering adjustments. Especially since there's not that much difference in the published specs to begin with. Unfortunately, I don't have any specs in my library for the Model 01 Belgian Eagles, but my WAG would be somewhere between the Model 10 and the Setra, especially since the 01 was built by Kassbohrer, Setra's parent. (I know, I know, it's now part of Daimler/Chrysler. But that's "now", and I'm talking "then". . .) Like I said, campground fire discussion material, right, guys? Oh, and Geoff - did your "forget" to tell us about the double left-turn lane in the middle of the four-lane street where you made your U-turn??? (LOL!!!) 8^) RJ | ||
| Phil Pellowski (Viater) (164.58.86.161)
Rating: N/A |
Very interesting reading and it's almost a shame to digres back to the original post My $0.02 Mike is, as mentioned a lot of value can be had in a partially converted coach but, one of the things that seriously need to be considered is Insulation! I purchased my coach already converted mostly because I needed a place to live right away. I later found out I had the stock fiberglass insulation and to change it to something more efficient in a fully converted coach seems to be a major nightmare. For now I'll just live with it until I can figure out how to best fix the situation. Just another somthing to think about. Phil PD4106-1726 |