| Author | Message | ||
| Peter River (Whitebus)
Registered Member Username: Whitebus Post Number: 192 Registered: 4-2009 Posted From: 24.234.175.26  Rating: N/A |
I have a bus based on spartan bus chassis. so this morning I went to the place where I store my bus. Looking at it it looked really low in the front. usually I need to air it up every week to keep the air doors closed, but apparently it doesn't air up the air bags, unless I put it in gear and release the parking brake lever. as I crawled under the bus, I see that the lower steering link arms (at least that's what I think it is, a long cylinderical arm connected to each front wheels by a ball joint) is pushed down by a metal attachment on a chassis frame! The whole weight of the bus is resting on a bar that's connected to the wheel by tiny little ball joint! the metal bar is bent, and it looks like it's rusted in that area, so it's not the first time this happened. I will be returning to take some photos, but now I am thinking that the whole front axle is compromised. and I think it has something to do with the uneven tire wear I have seen previously too. what kind of stupid design is this that just by airing down the air bags it pushes the steering axle out of wack? I guess it's more of an RV chassis, so it's a long shot but has anyone had anything like this happen? | ||
| Bruce Henderson (Oonrahnjay)
Registered Member Username: Oonrahnjay Post Number: 515 Registered: 8-2004 Posted From: 69.143.41.152  Rating: N/A |
You must have never seen a British design. I've got suspension that doesn't suspend, outdoor electrical stuff with no insulation, and lots of aluminum on steel! | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 1765 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 76.66.17.142  Rating: N/A |
Somebody figured out how to kneel the bus in a hurry for ADA, without the rest of the engineering? Those were heady times as everyone tried to accessorize for compliance, both retrofits by well meaning fleets as well as under funded manufacturers. happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| John & Barb Tesser (Bigrigger)
Registered Member Username: Bigrigger Post Number: 321 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 24.183.21.246  Rating: N/A |
Peter, I can't help you with the specifics of your steering, but I can tell you I drove a Spartan chassis for awhile and the engineering was not too good. All the electrical connections were out in the front where all the weather and road slop corroded them in no time. We had to rewire the whole mess. Give us a picture of the steering, someone on this board should be able to help. John | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 1038 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.235.211.83  Rating: N/A |
I hope the stix & staples guys don't read this stuff. | ||
| clint hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 557 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.234.224  Rating: N/A |
...then again , when do we hide any truth from anyone??? | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 1039 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.235.211.83 Rating: N/A |
When, or why? | ||
| clint hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 559 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.234.224 Rating: N/A |
...when I am a becomeing just a little confused about societys reliance on plausable deniablity and how it fits into our technical world of busnuting. | ||
| Peter River (Whitebus)
Registered Member Username: Whitebus Post Number: 195 Registered: 4-2009 Posted From: 65.160.214.168 Rating: N/A |
okay, a day after the discovery, I went back to see the bags depleted, and the bus sitting on the steering crossmembers again. I did put some wooden blocks to prevent it, and it was 23F last night according to my temp meter, so it must have had something to do with it. once the air compressor started pumping, the whole thing rose up. curiously, something changed in the air system because this is the first time (that I can recall) that the bus sank down overnight, in the two years I had it. I am guessing some type of leak somewhere, due to the cold and my inability to move the bus since I became sick a while back. anyway, take a look at these photos, and give me your opinion, whether there might have been some damage. I guess the bar needs replacing, but I am wondering about the ball joint or any other parts associated with it. http://www.tensionsheet.com/pix/axle/DSCI1082.JPG http://www.tensionsheet.com/pix/axle/DSCI1084.JPG http://www.tensionsheet.com/pix/axle/DSCI1085.JPG http://www.tensionsheet.com/pix/axle/DSCI1088.JPG http://www.tensionsheet.com/pix/axle/DSCI1090.JPG http://www.tensionsheet.com/pix/axle/DSCI1093.JPG http://www.tensionsheet.com/pix/axle/DSCI1094.JPG http://www.tensionsheet.com/pix/axle/DSCI1103.JPG http://www.tensionsheet.com/pix/axle/DSCI1108.JPG http://www.tensionsheet.com/pix/axle/DSCI1110.JPG http://www.tensionsheet.com/pix/axle/DSCI1116.JPG | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 1768 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 76.71.103.82 Rating: N/A |
I'm wondering if there is an offset length of rod that has been conveniently replaced with parts on hand, or otherwise been changed out. That steering rod looks like it would be fine just a little further past that vertical. happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| Bill Gerrie (Bill_gerrie)
Registered Member Username: Bill_gerrie Post Number: 330 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 216.198.139.38  Rating: |
Peter Looking at picture 1090 it looks like the heavy rod that joins the two front wheels together might be bent so when the bus settles down the large square piece contacts it. If the rod was straightened would it clear the large square part if only by a hair? Are you missing any rubber snub blocks that the body would settle onto whan the air goes out? | ||
| Ken Barnett (Dieselbusparts)
Registered Member Username: Dieselbusparts Post Number: 18 Registered: 7-2009 Posted From: 71.228.110.80 Rating: N/A |
Have you had problems with your steering? Your front end looks just fine the pitman arm could use some fresh grease, but other than that if it's not broke don't fix it! The rod connecting to the frame is a radius rod, and some are strategically bent, I assure you your coach has been thoroughly engineered to be stored, driven and abused by the roughest roads and drivers known to man, if you put a block under it you may bend the frame, it was never meant for that sort of abuse. (Message edited by DieselBusParts on December 27, 2009) | ||
| Tom Christman (Tchristman)
Registered Member Username: Tchristman Post Number: 164 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.218.33.156 Rating: N/A |
To me, it looks like that bracket holding the side control strut was mounted about a half inch to close. It also looks like the air bag is very close to the bracket (or maybe just the camera angle). Which ever way, you cannot bend the tie rod between the wheels-that would cause it to loose its' strength. But perhaps the side control strut frame bracket could be moved for better clearance. It looks to me to be a custom suspension system that Spartan put together themselves. Good Luck, TomC | ||
| Ken Barnett (Dieselbusparts)
Registered Member Username: Dieselbusparts Post Number: 19 Registered: 7-2009 Posted From: 71.228.110.80 Rating: N/A |
Even if the drag link or tie rod are bent, all it will do is cause a "toe in" situation that is easily corrected by bending it back and adjusting the the drag link (tie rod is the longer rod and the drag link is the adjustable rod connected to the pitman arm and steering gear) Tom's idea is worth looking into, I'd also look at the height control valve and have it tested or at least squirt it down with soap and eliminate it as the problem. | ||
| Peter River (Whitebus)
Registered Member Username: Whitebus Post Number: 196 Registered: 4-2009 Posted From: 65.160.214.168 Rating: N/A |
buswarrior, all parts look original. it's the angle of the photograph, but the rod under the square metal bracket on the frame does sit right on that round metal bar. bill_gerrie, it's the photo angle, but I don't think there's a way to make it clear the large metal bracket on the frame. I don't know where snub blocks would be, it's possible because this bus was one of the last one they made before they went bankrupt. dieselbusparts, strange enough, I haven't really had problem with steering. going down the freeway the steering wheel is maybe 15 degrees to the right. I always attributed to misalignment or air pressure difference, but now I know why. if you look carefully, it's not the rod connecting the frame that's the problem, it's the tie rod connecting the front wheels, right under that rod. tchristman, it probably is the camera angle, or at least there's no interference as far as the air bags. the tie rod is definitely slightly bent, and yes, I am planning to fix it. what I am concerned is that if the ball joints at the end would be compromised by this tremendous pressure which it was never designed for. and additionally dieselbusparts, i do see some weird tire wear, so it might have that toe in condition. I am 99% sure the bar was bent before I ever drove this thing across country. I will check for the source of the leak in the system, but there isn't any way to test the integrity of the ball joints, is there? thanks for all the opinions and advice. (Message edited by whitebus on December 28, 2009) | ||
| Tony Gojenola (Akbusnut)
Registered Member Username: Akbusnut Post Number: 45 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 208.98.151.220 Rating: N/A |
There probably should be bumper stops to maintain more clearance, but maybe not in the design. However, as a matter of interest, I notice what appears to be a pretty substantial crack in the left brake drum that may need attention. Pic 1093 tg | ||
| Peter River (Whitebus)
Registered Member Username: Whitebus Post Number: 197 Registered: 4-2009 Posted From: 65.160.214.168 Rating: N/A |
1093 is actually a photo of right drum, and I don't see it but I will go look at it more closely next time I am there... | ||
| Bill Gerrie (Bill_gerrie)
Registered Member Username: Bill_gerrie Post Number: 334 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 216.198.139.38 Rating: N/A |
Peter Measure the distance from centre of the front right wheel to the centre of the right rear wheel. Do the same on the left side. Are the measurements the same? Has the front axle shifted forward enough to cause contact with the rod. There has to be a set of rods from the axle to the frame. Adjustment? Bushings worn? If you try to pry on the tie rod ends up and down and there is very little movement then they are okay. There is always a very slight movement if you pry hard enough which gets filled with grease. There is a spring inside most tie rod ends to take up the slack. Look in your maintenance manual as there might be a cut view picture. | ||
| Tim Hoskinson (Tdh37514151)
Registered Member Username: Tdh37514151 Post Number: 254 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 65.25.139.50  Rating: N/A |
For a quick easy way to avoid this in the future. Try turning the wheels all the way one direction. As the spindle knuckles pivot they will draw the tie rod closer to the axle beam. This may be enough to clear the sway bracket. If so new tie rod and always turn the wheels when parking for a while may take care of the problem. Best of luck | ||
| Peter River (Whitebus)
Registered Member Username: Whitebus Post Number: 198 Registered: 4-2009 Posted From: 65.160.214.168 Rating: N/A |
tim, that is actually amazingly good idea. I took the photos while wheels were turned, and it almost cleared the bar. will try it next time. thanks for the idea. | ||
| clint hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 560 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.234.224 Rating: N/A |
I be looking for missing, damaged (like when being towed without air in the bags) or compressed bumper stops (some are inside the bad, though usely only the rolling lobe type). If there internal type, a complete deflation of all front bags , on level ground , might be a substitute for xray eyes. ... as for desing flaws, would the tie rod have cleared that bracket during deflation if it was not bent ? wouldn't want it to be able to interfer in the event of a extreme jolt or bag rupture, that would be dangerous. Times like these it is great to have a similar model to inspect compare with. Perhaps a inquirey to the manufacture will shed some light, they should be very interested in such problems if there not stuck in pluasable deniablity (todays word , apparently) | ||
| Peter River (Whitebus)
Registered Member Username: Whitebus Post Number: 199 Registered: 4-2009 Posted From: 65.160.214.168 Rating: N/A |
bill_gerrie, wouldn't there be a huge drivability issue if there was a measurable difference in wheelbase from left and right? I drove this thing up to 80mph downhill without any significant issues. if there is any tie rod that have a dropdown design this wouldn't be an issue... truthhunter, no, I don't think it would have cleared it. going straight, if there was a bag rupture there definitely would be an issue in steering. unfortunately I have yet to see another model on road, and the company went belly up 10 years ago... I will definitely have to do some reengineering here. maybe shave that pillar down and/or reposition that bar. (Message edited by whitebus on December 28, 2009) | ||
| clint hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 562 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.234.224 Rating: N/A |
try asking spartan, they built the chassi right ? | ||
| Peter River (Whitebus)
Registered Member Username: Whitebus Post Number: 200 Registered: 4-2009 Posted From: 65.160.214.168 Rating: N/A |
oh that's true... I will call them up. why didn't I think of that?  | ||
| clint hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 564 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.234.224 Rating: N/A |
...sometimes pre-repair cost anticipation stresses inhibit our problem resolution process, perhaps. [perhaps it is best to remeber to be diplomatic , avoid infering DEFECTS IN DESIGN , or it will be unlikely they will put you in contact with anyone with actual knowledge on the structure, instead refering you to the nearest authorized & expensive repair shop for inspection.] |
