| Author | Message | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 1047 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 69.19.14.28  Rating: N/A |
Have been sourcing parts for the FLX and to get the rear axle ratio needed the rear will need to be from a "newer" truck , in other words a 102 inches wide truck. I see the latest in CA mandates is "super singles" for their heavy trucks and am wondering if I could roll my own? The trucks need to carry BIG weight , but the back of the VL will only be in the 15,000lb range. A single Goodyear 315x80R 22.5 L is fine for 10,200 lbs on a nine inch wide rim. IF the center part of the wheel was in the center , not on one side as on duals it should work. Anyone have a source either for off the shelf wheels or a custom supplier that might make this work? I could simply bolt ONE 9 inch wide (inner) wheel on either side , but worry the rear bearing loads might get weird. Skinney 7.5 wide rims and 10R22.5 or simply wide rubber fender flairs is another concept. Any other suggestions to this strange hassle? Someone must have done it before. FF | ||
| Tom Christman (Tchristman)
Registered Member Username: Tchristman Post Number: 167 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.218.33.156 Rating: N/A |
FF- even though big rigs are pulling 102 trailers, they are still being made at 96 wide. When using the Michelin X-Ones (445/50R-22.5 or 455/55R-22.5) the same axle is used (this is one of the selling points that you can switch between the X-ones and normal duals as desired) but with a 2" offset wheel. For lighter axles, like you're doing, the 315/80R-22.5 is a good choice. There are two versions of this tire. The normal 9,000lb load that is usually rated to 75mph, and the high load that is 10,000lbs per tire, but restricted to 65mph or lower. There are a bunch of 9" wheels that have various offsets that will get your 315 to the desired width. Even on the big rigs, the offset wheels for super singles have not been a problem (every so often you hear of a bearing going out prematurely, but as long as you're not over loading it shouldn't be a problem). If the truck is doing construction work or is a concrete mixer, then they use the wide base axles. So don't worry about bearing loading-it just isn't happening. Good Luck, TomC | ||
| Peter River (Whitebus)
Registered Member Username: Whitebus Post Number: 202 Registered: 4-2009 Posted From: 24.234.146.50  Rating: N/A |
I get a warm fuzzy feeling knowing that there are redundancy built into my dually rear wheels. If one pops on your single, you can probably kiss that nice pretty rim goodbye. | ||
| clint hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 583 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.238.127  Rating: N/A |
MR.FAST, how about trying the bigger size (front engine)school bus axles , rated at 19,000 lbs or higher are common (not sure if your flex is a rear engine or mid as we don't seem to have those up hear much yet , ehy! ), 96" school bus axles are common and all have low miles as a rule, you could look hard and find a 2 speed school axle, or even a thelma magnetic brake equiped model . International school bus chassis had 2 speed axles as a option as far back as 25 years and whole working school buses can be found so cheap, when your done selling off parts you have a storage shed if you have a big back yard. ~ If you did decide to run on the inner dual wheel only and was only running a lightweight/duty at 15,000 lbs on a 23,000 lb truck axle it would handle it fine with only a shortened bearing life from the weight offset, common setup with the rail road on many sized trucks, extra wear isn't something you couldn't live with ; perhaps best if you don't do too many rough roads at excessive speeds (what's in a name, ehy?). | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 1048 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 69.19.14.26 Rating: N/A |
Noodeling on the Alcoa site I found a variety of wheels with different "outset" . It looks like 2 inch, 3,88 and 5.84 is standard. From Alcoa "Outset (positive)/inset (negative) – The distance from the rim centerline to the mounting face of the wheel. Inset (negative) places the rim centerline inboard of the wheel mounting face and outset (positive) places the rim centerline outboard of the wheel mounting face (½ dual spacing = offset)." So it looks like there is an on the shelf solution with a wider single. It will need to wait to see what the test ride shows , as the tire selection will be used to "tune" the rear ratio. The "dream" is to go up a 3% grade in OD , bigger hills and towing will be back to 4th. 1300rpm at 65 or so. The rolling diameters can vary from 38 to 42 , enough to change cruise 100rpm. Thanks guys OF course its only mental masterbation but working with the calc on the Daris's great site , WOW at 2100 its over 110mph , HMMMMM! FF | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1828 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.71.157  Rating: |
Fred, go outside and get some oxygen! I have thought about super singles and the inconvenience if one goes bad out on the road just isn't worth the slight mileage gain. I would think that any near current axle should also be available from the mfg in 96". I don't know what the bare housing might be used. You might have to check several truck salvage places. Do a Google. | ||
| Debbie and Joe Cannarozzi (Joe_camper)
Registered Member Username: Joe_camper Post Number: 196 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 98.212.104.155 Rating: N/A |
Unless you are getting a 365 or LARGER you are not talking about a super single, you are talking about singling out a regular tire. I ran super singles, not on the drives, on a semi trlr for a decade and they are fine in that application. I ran 385s. Prevost is using 365's on the steer out of nessessity, and on the tag for the wow factor on new buses. Very impressive, very cool. not on the drives. Local excavators run 365's on the steers on many straight trucks and cement trucks often have 385's thru 425's. If I were going to use super singles these are the sizes the decent tire guy WILL usually be stocking. There are "new" very wide and lowprofile singles that look very custom, VERY expensive. I used to get 385's for 400bucks, good deal. Sidewalls are VERY STRONG,great tires but still would not leave town without a spare. | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 949 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 99.172.183.72 Rating: N/A |
Pete, As we haven't heard from JTNG for a while, I guess I will have to stir things up in his place! What happens if a front tire pops on your bus, his bus, or mine? I think its the same scenario you describe for a super-single rear? Sorry, I just couldn't resist... Now, has someone above considered how much HORSEPOWER is produced by a S50 at 1300 RPM? It isn't very much, and I personally doubt that it will be enough to push even a 35' coach 65 MPH, without a headwind???? The way I see it, the combination of 1300 RPM of fan and water pump speed, and "full fuel rack" as a result of full throttle, equals a hot engine. The "Dream" of going up a 3% grade in OD with THAT final drive ratio should either be called wet, or a nightmare. G | ||
| Luvrbus (Luvrbus)
Registered Member Username: Luvrbus Post Number: 832 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 74.32.95.26 Rating: N/A |
I don't think he going to go up many mountians out in the west in OD with a 8.5L engine with a max of 350 hp and 1150# of torque but the bright side his passenger will sleep good with all the shaking and vibaration of the 50 series. good luck | ||
| clint hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 588 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.238.127 Rating: N/A |
-in due fact , mrfast did put "dream" in quotations; which one might do it with low enough gross weight in a slight overdrive with those torqey "coffee can" sized 4 bangers engines , they do have a very usable & wide torque band in some Dietroit Series 50 configurations. -One does need to compensate the mounting to handle the harmonics in any coach , as much as possible, along with the high torque peaks you get at 573 lbs. of torque per cylinder explosion, axle snapping torque that must be mediated. | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1065 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 70.212.171.245 Rating: N/A |
Hey, JTNG...where are ya?....Methinks G has something there. Hope (trust) U R doing well! IPFY!!!!! RCB | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 950 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 99.172.183.72 Rating: N/A |
573 foot pounds of torque per power stroke? As in 2292 ft/lb for a S50? As in 3938 ft/lb for a S60? Hmmmm, almost three times the factory rating. But then we're into giving advice without even knowing which end of the bus the engine is in... I'm with you Chuck, I appreciate the different view, and the humor, and hope JTNG is OK. G | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 1052 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 66.82.9.81 Rating: N/A |
The 50's FLX are all rear engine T drive . Sounds like I will be cruising the 365 wide tires , and see which has the lowest rolling resistance. 50's lack power , perhaps , but the last conversion this fellow dis was a MCI 9 with a 6 speed Allison 700 series with 2 OD. In 6th even with the stock MCI rear (4-1?) he stays in 6th most of the time. And that MCI is 35,000 to 40,000 lbs,(not 25,000) at least 25% worse aerodynamics (harder corners 2+ft higher) and drags a tag axle if I remember right. 10-12mpg reported ,no low pro high efficiency tires. I expect the mileage and hill climbing to be poor when towing a small 28 ft trawler behind , but on the flats , hopefully the mileage will be OUTSTANDING. FF | ||
| Tim Brandt (Timb)
Registered Member Username: Timb Post Number: 480 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 74.244.14.221  Rating: N/A |
Regarding the trawler be careful backing that VL down the boat ramp to launch. My dad tried that once with our VL and nearly lost it when he hit the slime line. | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 1053 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 66.82.9.81 Rating: N/A |
For those who want a Look this is the coach as first converted by Angola , the lady is Bea Robertson , who sent me these photos. Looks very different after almost 40 years of owners with MY WAY in their blood. It will look different once again when we finish "the MY WAY" of our Desirements. FF  | ||
| ED Hackenbruch (Shadowman)
Registered Member Username: Shadowman Post Number: 219 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 75.211.36.90 Rating: N/A |
I for one am curious to see the results of this. Not that i have any plans to change my 5A. Fred, any idea when you will have this on the road? I hope that you make a few test runs over the same route and let us know the results. I hope it lives up to your expectations,.... i think that with the thought and research that you have put into it you have a good chance of getting close to your goal. | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 1054 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 66.82.9.81 Rating: N/A |
I for one am curious to see the results of this. Not as curious as I am!!! The OTR truckers are making an art of better fuel milage. One of their units is a 13 speed without OD , the rear IS what the truck would be geared at if it had OD , savings less gears in hi , straight thru. Single rear axle with tag , cheaper , lighter less rolling resistance and sometimes less tolls. And of course low rolling resistance tires and synthetic oil everywhere. FF | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1829 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.71.157 Rating: N/A |
You'll need to put on a LOT of miles to ever get back any of the investment in this. Trucks benefit from small improvements because of the several hundreds of thousands of miles in payback.And much can be written of as a business. Reminds me of the TV program that guys at work were talking about. Guy went to all solar and wind power to run his house without oil and electric service. Cost him $175,000 dollars. What is the payback period on this if nothing breaks down; if usual components break down, need serviced etc.???? At least Fred's project is interesting to read about. | ||
| clint hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 592 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.238.127 Rating: N/A |
"mcsixpack" did you forgot to add in the 4 stroke factor and the thermal dynamic in-efficiency between the actual torque created in the combustion chamber, which acts on the piston & joining parts and what is finally measured at the flywheel as the SAE rating at 1156 ft/lbs your equating too. - I am guessing your ball park guess is farther out of the ball park than mine, but then your only substituting for jtng , so I do understand, his are big theards which we can only try to fill. +the main point I was trying to make was the difference of the increased torque peak per combustion event in one of those 4 cylinder coffee can engines as compared to something like a 8V-71. Hope that clear things up a bit. [At this rate MR.FAST is unlikely to be hauling either of us up that 3% grade in 1st overdrive as our "bullshit" would make his new freddy-mobile to heavy for such a feat. I for one think it is possible if GVW is keep as low as his indicated target.] | ||
| ED Hackenbruch (Shadowman)
Registered Member Username: Shadowman Post Number: 220 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 70.212.164.128 Rating: N/A |
I doubt that very few of us look at our buses or anything that we do to them as an investment, or expect to get much out of them when we sell. Financial return? No. Enjoyment of the use of them? Yes,..... and how do you put a price on that? To those of us that fulltime and don't own a house somewhere ,than yes this an investment of sorts because it is our home. We will get more "value" out of the use of it than somebody that just uses it for occasional trips. But when all is said and done it is going to be the rare individual that gets all or even most of his money back out of it. When we were in the market for an Rv we had a neighbor who told us that we didn't want to buy a diesel because we would have to drive it 100,000 miles or more a year for it to pay for itself. That might be true for the price difference between a new diesel and gasser rig, but in my case by buying used and older i could get a diesel for the same or cheaper price as a newer gasser. | ||
| larry currier (Larryc)
Registered Member Username: Larryc Post Number: 305 Registered: 2-2007 Posted From: 64.40.63.20 Rating: N/A |
I have experience with super singles. I dislike them for several reasons. On the steer axle they will hydro plane very easily. On the drives and trailers it is rare to have a flat and save either the tire or the wheel. If you have a very fat budget and can wait for replacement tires and wheels when down, as well as lay out $800 or more dollars, go for it. | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 951 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 99.172.183.72 Rating: N/A |
Clint, NO guesses. You published "573 foot pounds of torque per cylinder explosion." 573 foot pounds times 4 cylinders equals 2292 foot pounds. No guessing, simple grade school math. 2292 is four foot pounds short of TWICE the 1150 foot pound FACTORY rating... G | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 1780 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 76.71.104.249  Rating: N/A |
Have we forgotten our manners? Helpful comments? I hope that the lurkers are not getting the impression that new ideas are unwelcome on this forum? What busnut is going to post the "eureka" for the future with this kind of atmosphere? The audience is far larger than just those who post. happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| Don Evans (Doninwa)
Registered Member Username: Doninwa Post Number: 247 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 208.81.157.234  Rating: N/A |
Even though some of this has drifted off the OP subject and I sometimes have difficulty following Clint's posts too, I do try.  I have a question. What is the relationship between torque and number of power pulses per revolution? Is torque measured per rev, per 100 revs, per 1000? Let's see, a single cylinder 4 stroke engine has to supply rated torque. Does that mean it has to have twice the rated torque per power stroke to carry it through two revs? On a 50S, would two power strokes per rev need to add up to rated torque. Yes? No? Maybe? | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1068 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 70.210.253.179 Rating: N/A |
"... and I sometimes have difficulty following Clint's posts too, I do try. :-)" Me too... (IKPFY, Clint) Thoughtful...direct, BW...as they say (said) Right on! RCB | ||
| clint hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 594 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.238.127 Rating: N/A |
...keeping in mind I am talking peak torque pulse as that is where you get the problems like rattle, shack and snap beggining, the torque in each cylinder is not steady & even but begins to build from detonation and declines at some point within the power stroke, depending on the air/fuel ratio, timming, etc. in the explosive combustion, so a pistion peak of double the flywheel rated torque is a conservative estimate representing the mean average after friction and the flywheel do there kinetic thing to give you the SAE flywheel rated torque. -Hope that paints a clearer picture of what I was attempting to illustrate, where is my chalk board, dang cheshire tools ? (I did try this to explain this once before in reference to a problem with repeated axle snaping someone had with a MCI 102-C after transplanting in a coffee can four banger, don't seem to be do any better this second try, is it me or those considering my free advice and other places to stick it ?) | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 1056 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 66.82.162.12 Rating: N/A |
"You'll need to put on a LOT of miles to ever get back any of the investment in this." Bus Conversion is a hobby , not a business , so most "investment" will need to be driven out of the coach . Our reason for changing conversions is an expected change in lifestyle. We have cruised , boat and bus , most of the east coast and are planning a different style of cruising. The Sportscar has been grand , on the Slab , the blue ,brown and brown with dashed lines roads.. BUT because of the great monocoque design the ability to tow is limited by tongue weight considerations. We have run the "Loop" a 6000 mile east coast boat tour, Erie barge canal, over to AHHH land for the Trent Severn to Georgian Bay , Lake Mich , on to the Mississippi ,Ohio, Tenn Tom and down to the Gulf and back to home plate in FL. WE have sailed New England for decades and have done 5 trips to Bermuda and the Carib and run the ICW more times than I want to remember. Our current plan is to sell the fleet and purchase a trailerable motorboat. This will allow us to snowbird in 3 driving days , and not take a month to transit the ICW once again. THe West coast calls , Seattle, Vancover and the Inside Passage to AK, as does the Baha. SO although the VL is being set up to perhaps get exceptional fuel mileage its big purpose is as a transport vehicle. In the Sportscar we seldom spend more than a month camping , but double that in a boat is still very pleasant. www.RangerTugs.com is an idea of what were looking at although a used compromise will be loads cheaper. It would cost almost $5K to have a boat taken from FL to CT , that's $10K a year , It is loads more to get a boat to the Left coast and back, so if we do it a couple of times the bills fir the VL engine tranny repower will look less HUGE! IF 4 low pro tires will fit inside the VL, with the new axle conventional tires will be chosen. Mostly so a spair can be carried in the stock location. IF the wheels would stick out 3 inches on either side and look WIERD! the special fat rear tire with fancy wheels will be required. Time will tell.  | ||
| clint hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 595 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.234.172 Rating: N/A |
... rear engine school bus for the axle transplant, they are 96" bodies, with air suspension & brakes in many bluebird & thomas. generally low miles, shouldn't be hard to locate a fair price. Wouldn't want to run the differential backwards. ~excellent dream your working on there fred, super of you too share your reasoning for your design too, way too think... | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 953 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 99.172.183.72 Rating: N/A |
BW, Both you and I have apologized in print here in the last year or so for our errors. In my book, that's called integrity. Now we have a printed refusal to apologize from another poster, and I hope he is the one whose manners (or lack thereof) you are referring to. In this post, I am quite concerned over Fred's axle, and/or final drive ratio choice. Granted, my experience in final drive ratio calculations has been limited to changing gas engines to 2500 RPM Cummins diesels in Ramchargers, and 3/4 ton pickup trucks. I have been successful in getting a vehicle with much better driveability, acceleration and fuel economy, while keeping a fairly high top speed. The subject of towing a boat didn't come up until now, but anyhow, I feel very strongly that his bus will be unable to tow a fair sized boat at 65 MPH on the flat at 1300 RPM, period! This axle ratio will make it a 4 speed trans, as with the throttle wide open at 50 mph, the trans will never go into 5th... A final drive ratio producing about 1750 RPM at 65 mph will give a much more driveable bus. G | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 1060 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 66.82.9.58 Rating: N/A |
I agree George , we don't really expect to get into OD unless running free ,with out the tow. The chosen tranny a ZF 5hp 600 is one size oversize and is used in those heavy 45 ft coaches with Mann diesels. So if it takes 3rd or 4th to tow the load at 1800, so be it. 2100 up that hill, wont be a bother.And at 40mph hill climbing wind drag will be minor and the incline and tires the major power requirement. At least running free the unit will be quiet and efficient. FF | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 1783 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 76.69.142.162 Rating: N/A |
To add to the thinking, in many applications, the Allison World transmissions are programmed to not even use some of the gear ratios, the top overdrive being a common one ignored. Being in a position to gear the coach so that top gear works like a dream unladen, and one/two gears down takes care of a heavy tow, would be a dream come true. The trick is nailing the spread in the tranny gears with the right differential gearing/tire sizing. And FF has been doing a lot of figuring since this project began. Let's keep on thinking!!! happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 1061 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 66.82.9.79 Rating: N/A |
"And FF has been doing a lot of figuring since this project began. " You bet, what I have learned is that the HUGE variety of tire sizes that a OTS (on the shelf) makes the ability to "change" the rear ratio fairly easy. I could post the numbers if folks eyes wont glaze over.However each coach is so different that it would be far better for folks to go to http://www.thebouthilliers.com/4106/ Folks with a std coach and any style tranny , but esp a stick, should work out the numbers for each gear and print out a copy! This info will help shifting a bunch , esp if the info is transfered to the speedometer with dots of colored paint .(Thanks VW). FF |
