| Author | Message | ||
| Jared (209.237.13.146) Rating: N/A |
Hello all: I am a wanna be in the late stages of research with the intent of converting an MCI-9 or MCI102. I have many questions, but one of the more pressing currently involves polyurethane foam availability. The best foam product I can find for a do-it-yourselfer is through a company called Fomo products. They sell polyurethane foam kits called frothpaks that are essentially selfcontained kits that allow anyone to blow foam without the need for special mixing/blowing equipment. Sounds great right? Well here is the bad part. They want $550 for a 50ft^3 kit. Now a 40' MCI with 1.5" foamed walls,ceiling, and floor will use approximately 150ft^3 to 200ft^3 of foam. This amounts to $1500 to $2000 bill for insulation. So I am trying to find a company that sells polyurethane kits at a reasonable price. Any ideas out there? thanks for your time all, and this is an excellent--truly excellent site. Jared excellent site you | ||
| Dale Fleener (64.66.196.72)
Rating: N/A |
Jared, that price sounds like its in the same range to have it done by someone else with the equipment to do hot foam jobs. Just something to think about. Dale MC8 | ||
| ED-NJ (67.85.224.113)
Rating: N/A |
I just got done doing my MCI-9; it did take 3 froth-paks to complete, at approximately the same cost as you estimated. It emits very toxic fumes spraying it as well as triming it after it's cured. The triming is worse than the spraying. I also used the ceramic paint on it first, which made it more difficult for the insulation to stick to. I would recommend you have a professional do it; in light of all the time and work it takes to do it yourself. The only advantage to doing it yourself is, you can do it one section at a time rather than having to have all the framework completed before having it insulated. Weight the pros and cons before you do it yourself. | ||
| Jay Gerlick (64.12.96.235)
Rating: N/A |
I just, TODAY talked to a guy,Mike Bolash in Divernon, ILL Bolash Roofing and Insulation. He is slow this month, during the the week only is available to do work on buses. Although he has never done a coach he is very confident it's right up his alley. Give him a call if your interested. 1-217-628-3877. Please mention me,Jay Gerlick, So I can get mine cheaper. Just joking. I'm still about two weeks away, but I wanted to find someone, so not to hold up progress. | ||
| jared (209.237.13.146) Rating: |
thanks for the replies. I will probably just have to bite the bullet here. Man, I am in the wrong business. I ought to be shooting polyurethane. Jay, I am in late research phase at the moment, which means I still haven't purchased the bus. But, I take research seriously, so it might sound like I am further along than I truly am. What doe Mike Bolash charge per sq ft? Guys around my neck of the woods are charging about 1.50 sq ft. for pro installation. Incidentally, I wish to include the contents of a series of emailings I just had with a company named "Ro-An Corporation" that sells poly frothpaks. They want $695 for the exact same frothpak sold by Fomo for $550. I complained about their pricing and here is their response. Just thought I would pass this along in case anybody was considering doing business with Ro-An. -j Dear Jared: If you want to be a professional than act like one. Our products are for pros and priced accordingly. With your idiot comments you probably could not figure out how to even use the unit. A single can of foam will yield 1 cu. ft. for about $3.00 retail. There are 600 cu.ft. in a FP 600 kit. $3.00 x 600 = $1800 Looks like my pricing is pretty good. Go to Home Depot you rookie. ----- Original Message ----- From: "jared brandt" To: "Sales @ RO-AN Corporation" Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 1:51 PM Subject: Re: pricing? > Sorry, but these prices are WAY out of line. > > You guys should stop whatever it is you are smoking before > you go out of business. > > > > -jared > > "Sales @ RO-AN Corporation" wrote: > > > Dear Jared: > > > > Thank you for visiting "RO-AN Online" and your interest in the > > products we carry here at RO-AN Corporation. RO-AN is a > > wholesale distributor of building materials. We represent some > > of the finest manufacturers in the industry. We sell our products > > throughout the U.S. > > > > Below is pricing on a FP 600 Kit. > > As for your application, after some practice > > you should be able to control your depth. > > > > Below is pricing on our foam kits............. > > > > FP 12 Kit (1 cu.ft or 12 board feet) = $ 35.00 ea. > > FP 180 Kit (15 cu.ft or 180 board feet) = $ 325.00 ea. > > FP 600 Kit (50 cu.ft or 600 board feet) = $ 695.00 ea. > > > > All kits are in stock > > > > We accept MasterCharge/VISA > > F.O.B. RO-AN Corporation - Menomonee Falls, WI 53051 USA > > We ship to all locations in the U.S. > > > > Please call or e-mail if you have any questions > > or would like to place an order. > > > > Thank You For Visiting "RO-AN Online" > > > > Mark R. Bertieri - Sales Department > > RO-AN Corporation > > Menomonee Falls, WI 53052 USA > > Phone: 800-922-1600 - E-Mail: sales@roancorp.com > > Web Site: http://www.roancorp.com > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "jared brandt" > > To: > > Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 7:12 PM > > Subject: pricing? > > > > > Hello, I need to get pricing information for your Froth-Pak 600 Kit . > > > Additionally, I need to know if it is possible to get a fairly > > > consistent > > > 1.5" depth of foam in a wide open easy access application, like a simple > > > > > > 2x4 wall. > > > > > > > > > > > > thanks for your time > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > Jared Brandt > > > > > > > > > > > > | ||
| Jim Stacy (32.101.44.50)
Rating: N/A |
Jared, Several years ago, I had my 4104 HOT sprayed. (Better product than cold spray.) He filled front and rear caps, did all wheel wells and the gen compartment. He did all the spraying, we did the trimming. Cost: about $800. Mark Radius recently had hia MC9 done for about the same cost. Find someone who sprays agriculture storage bldgs. Your quote is three times the cost for a inferior product. Hot spray is the way to go. Back to your homework... Jim Stacy | ||
| OAE Palmer (208.164.96.140) Rating: N/A |
Because this subject has floated to the top yet again, I will say the same thing I did last time. Besides hot spray and cold flow, a person NEEDS to consider the density of the foam. Some are so "soft" as to allow a finger to press thru a couple of inches w/o a problem while others won't even be dented with a 3lb hammer. The denser the foam the more rigid and insulated you coach will be. Soft foams have a tendency to crumble into powder in areas that flex regularly laeaving pockets of empty uninsulated space. Soft foams are inexpensive....dense foams are $$$$ but do more than superinsulate. | ||
| FAST FRED (209.26.115.226) Rating: N/A |
"The denser the foam the more rigid and insulated you coach will be." This is totally wrong . The best insulation is AIR and the foam ONLY stops the air from moving about inside the wall cavity. The MORE foam , the Less air , so the poorer insulating it is. Most foam R values are BS in the real world. The Frothpack volumes are measures from squirting the goo on the floor & measuring the resulting volume. When the foam touches ANYTHING , it gets restricted in its expansion & there goes the R value & amount of foam volume you will get. Jims hot urathane is about as good as you can get from blown. A blade from a wood cutting saw (1 1/2 X 24) attached to a jitterbug sander is fastest way to slice overblow back to coach ribs. Peresonally I think the folks that used pro sheet foam from the HD and force fitted it in place get the best insulation job. But it won't do a thing for a rattletrap in "stiffining " the structure. FAST FRED | ||
| North Florida Bus Conversion (216.128.136.99)
Rating: N/A |
I just come back from two weeks in the poconos at Camal back. The tempture never was above 30 degrees and down to 5 withwind we heated the coach with one 5000 btu electric heater it keep the coach in the low 70s. So don't believe that hot foam the kind that they use on the top of roof on metal buildings is not good. We had two feet of snow on the roof. The eagle that was there with us used 80 pounds of Propane a week and He diden't believe that all I was using was one small heater till he came in and saw it. Fred | ||
| Greg Roberts (Gregeagle20) (172.141.88.71)
Rating: N/A |
Fast Fred, I think you might be just a little off on your comment "The MORE foam , the Less air , so the poorer insulating it is" or you may have just worded your comment wrong. Actually air of the optimum density is a good thermal insulator but only when thermal flow is controlled. The more we stop the thermal flow the better, so a product that captures many pockets of air accomplishes both properties (of course we are only considering conduction in this conversation) and yields a higher thermal efficiency. So, more correctly expanded two part hot foam gives you more thermal break and has a much reduced ability to transfer heat as compared to more air and less thermal break. | ||
| jared (209.237.13.146) Rating: N/A |
Fred, could you elaborate more on this Pro Sheet Foam from HD? I assume you are referring to a Home Depot product. Can you tell us the precise name of these sheets? Perhaps using these sheets in conjunction with a few dozen cans of Great Stuff polyurethane to fill in the voids can be a cost effective solution. The problem with the Pro sheet issue is that the vapor barrier is not solved. I guess I could use one of those paint on products that have been refered to here in earlier posts to protect the metal. A layer of Visqueen (spelling?) could provide the warm side vapor barrier. thanks again folks, excellent site-I love it! -jared | ||
| David & Lorna Schinske (Davidschinske) (64.24.236.56)
Rating: N/A |
Jared, Given what you will spend on the bus, you really should make sure that the frame has been protected from rust. It's sort of like spending $20K on a nice deck for your house and building it out of plain fir, not using Pressure treated lumber where you need it and not sealing it to protect from the weather. It simply won't last. | ||
| Craig S (65.202.123.254) Rating: N/A |
Hi Jared, I believe what FF is talking about is the polyisocyanurate foam boards. They come in 3/4 and 1/2 inch thicknesses and are 4 X 8 feet. They have foil on one side and a gray plastic on the other. I have used alot of this due to its high R-value, about R-7 per inch. Craig S | ||
| steve souza (Stevebnut) (24.91.241.242)
Rating: N/A |
Jared I used the froth packs. It took two kits to complete my 75 AM general 35 foot coach. Although it is a great product and stiffened the coach up with no rattles or air infiltration i could have sprayed in a third kit. Do yourself a favor and have it hot sprayed by a profesional. It will be cheaper and better in quality Steve | ||
| FAST FRED (209.26.115.228) Rating: N/A |
"So, more correctly expanded two part hot foam gives you more thermal break and has a much reduced ability to transfer heat as compared to more air and less thermal break. " The MORE air the bigger the thermal break, expects that the insulation will actually capture the air in tiny spsces , so the conduction is lowest , with the lightest , least amopunt of material that will actually do that. As for "structural " properties expect NONE. The foan might hold hunks of metal still for a while , so it may sound quieter untill driven. YES lots of folks have used a variety of products and are pleased with the results. To do a great insulation job the coach MUST be made smaller. Spraying "gold" between the ribs and finishing the inside smooth wont do as much as an inch of foam board added INSIDE and then finished. Remember NONE of the spray insulation is stopping a bit of cold from coming down each and every rib , stringer , or reinforcement that touches the outside skin of the coach . The folks with the HD R7 board sheets seem just as happy with their coaches insulation as the $2000, "Pro" hot spray and a long hard cleanup. With out Having an insulated floor , and something far better than R 1.5 dual pane windows and a special dual glass windscreen the best advice I have is, Warmshades (R 6) for all windows and a good method of providing heat. On a cost comparison the single electric heater is about 15c+ an hour or about $4.00 a day. The $40. of propane for a week is about $6.00 a day, so actually cheaper than 2 electric heaters. The difference is so tiny that it would take 1000 days of very cold weather to "pay" for the insulation. Unless your an ardent lover of frozen wilderness , the cash & time could be lots better spent. Remember too that the foam (BOTH cheap & expensive) burns like crazy , so you have to be really sure no heat or sparks will ever see the foam. You HAVE to be really sure of the Quality of the wiring if its burried in the foam combustable walls! FAST FRED | ||
| North Florida Bus Conversion (216.128.133.129)
Rating: N/A |
The big difference Fred is the park provided the electric. And it cost him the same to stay there as it did me. plus he spent over $160 for the two weeks, And had to make two trips with caoch to get it. Fred H | ||
| RayC (142.165.92.139)
Rating: N/A |
Fred you mentioned several times on this post that "air" is the best insulation and that could not be further from the truth. Fiberglass insulation for example is air filled and does not have the "r" factors of foam. It is not the air in foam insulation that gives it the high "r" rating but gases other than air. Several years after a sheet of foam insulation is installed it will have a lower r rating by 1 per inch because the gas has migrated and has been replaced by air. The National Research Council Canada has quite a bit of that info on their website. To quote one article "Cellular plastic insulating materials filled with gases can provide higher thermal resistance than traditional air filled insulating materials, at least initially, because the gas has a lower thermal conductivity than air. But the intrusion of atmospheric air over the course of the service life of cellular plastic insulation materials diminishes their thermal resistance." One observation I have made in the lumber yard is low density foam has lower r ratings than high density which is counter to what you are saying. | ||
| ED-NJ (67.85.224.113) Rating: N/A |
After seeing all the responses to this question. I checked (DA-BOOK)NFPA 1192 maybe I'm reading it wrong but it says absolutly no foam. The fumes are to toxic when it burns. Rigid foam max 3/8". If this is the case should I not tell the insurance company about my choice on the insulation matterial that I used??? | ||
| Henry R. Bergman, Jr. (Henryofcj) (65.194.145.58)
Rating: N/A |
There must be some point in the many various insulation plans/schemes that strike a balance between effort, $expense$, efficiency and energy savings. Take my Crown ex-schoolie as an example. Have not done the insulation thing yet. Hopefully, the coach will never see such extremes in weather..... .....requiring heavy/expensive insulation. Ideally, if the temp gets much below freezing or approaching 100 degrees F, I am out of there and move somewhere else. Could I in my case possibly get away with no insulation at all? Kinda like the tree falling in the forest and no one is there...... Love this board. Thanks. Henry of CJ | ||
| Jack Perry (Jpwinks) (68.71.200.180)
Rating: N/A |
I am approximately 2/3 of the way complete on insulating my 83 MCI M9, should be complete sometime this weekend. I chose to insulate with 4'x8'x 1" (R=6.67 per inch)polyisocyanurate foam boards that I purchased at my local wholesale commercial roofer supply for $37.00 per 100 sq ft...Total cost for entire coach - $236.00 not including 100 lbs. of elbow grease. I considered having it sprayed and based on my intended usage and the envelope as a whole, I decided against it for many reasons, mainly, I couldn't justify the ADDITIONAL $800.00+ for the benefits that sprayed in place would offer me, at best I think I may have acrued an additional R of 3 with the spray, after doing the math and payback calulation I'm sure I'll be quite happy with an average R of 10.005 using rigid board. I have been taking step by step photos that should be compiled by Monday or Tuesday, I will publish them and give you the address to the host if anyone is interested. | ||
| R. C. Bishop (128.123.221.152)
Rating: N/A |
enry......I stripped mine and put in a variety of board insulation from Lowes ( best price here). 1.5 inch in the ceiling, two layers (3/4 and 1/2) in the sidewalls (and that will vary from place to place, such as with the turbo intake and other things around the coach). Then I ran the 1/4 inch foil bubble on the sidewalls, taped it together to form a pretty tight skin, except for the windows, of course. Then a 1/2 plywood sidewall all around, also taped with aluminum foil at the joints,followed by a 1/8th inch Oak skin. Except for motor noise thru the floor, (haven't attacked that yet)very quiet and not drafty. Price is right; highest around ten bucks for a sheet of 4' x 8' 1.5 inch as I recall. Could be mistaken about that. I did it a year ago. Today I installed rodbacker in the slider window grooves. 3/8, 1/2 and 1/4 in each window. Will be followed by a 3/4 inch covered with vinyl fabric between the window unit and the frame. Nice tight fits all around and sholuld cut out 90 percent or more of the noise and dirt. Really impressed with the fit and the appearance. Rips right out if one needs to open the window. I considered the spray foam thing, but from what I am reading, glad I did it "my way". Saved a BIG BUNCH of bucks. Doubt I spent $300 on the entire insulation project. Did buy a lot of Polyurethane to seal all the transition areas such as at floor, etc. Food for thought. RCB | ||
| R.C.Bishop (128.123.221.152)
Rating: N/A |
Sorry, Henry. ...'enry 'iggins, huh??  RCB | ||
| Henry R. Bergman, Jr. (Henryofcj) (65.194.145.50)
Rating: N/A |
You can call me anything....only be sure to call me early for tottie hour or in plenty of time for chow. He he he. Wondering how you are going to attack/defeat/ quiet down those pesty engine, tranny and rear driver hatches on the floor of your Crown. Had some friends ride along with me on the monthly or soossssss drive-a-round and had them walk around.... ...inside the Crown listening for any noise. Consensus was lots of noise was coming from the floor hatches...... ......covering my mighty (yeah-sure) Cummins big cam 250 and RTO-910 Roadranger. A whinney combination when rapped out, let me tell you. Wondering how to quiet the old girl down in this area. Talking nicely to the bus seems not to have helped. Any ideas here? CROWNS FOREVER and thanks. Henry of CJ | ||
| R.C.Bishop (128.123.221.211)
Rating: N/A |
Frankly, the floor will probably be the last thing I contend with, however, I am considering the possiblity of a cork layer over the existing 1.5" plywood, then a parquet over that. I have about 250 square feet of it on hand and so it is cheap. Cork in 1/8th thickness is not too expensive and should help the noise. We have dogs that travel with us so rug runners etc will help on the access panels. Also I a considering the possibility of gluing sheet foam on the underside of them. HTH RCB | ||
| FAST FRED (209.26.115.24) Rating: N/A |
The "best " insulation is NO air, a pannel with a vacume held inside. Great for very specialized apps ,like boat freezers in specialized sizes (see Glacier Bay) but kind of hard to do on an old bus. The old top "standard " was freon blown foam, but alas that is gone to the ozone hole. The FG in FG insulation does not trap the air from complete convective movement , so plastic that does (if not too conductive ) works best. Under a floor a thin layer of sheat lead seems to work really well. It covers up small holes etc, and can be glued down & flattened into the glue with a linoleum roller. (rent from hardware store). No insulating value. Every example of home sprayed foam seemed to use loads more froth packs than the builder thought it should , (from the literature),and was really messy. I would have no idea why the Eagle owner would not plug into the campground power , as most folks do . But even at $80 a week its more weeks than most rational folks will want to do in freezing cold , to justify $2000. and the work & mess involved. About 25 weeks to break even. Skiers , that delight at tossing their bodies off mountains are less rational , and if spending months on end camping WILL break even sooner , if they dont break somthing else first. FAST FRED | ||
| Scott Whitney (66.82.9.26) Rating: N/A |
ED NJ, Are you referring to NFPA 1192, Section 3-1.3? All, It says cellular foam is not permitted. But then the exception No. 1 states it is permitted if . . ."fire tests that substantiate on a resonable basis their combustability characteristics, for the use intended, in actual fire conditions. . ." I have seen modern RVs make use of regular styrofoam like a coffee cup. Ever seen a styrofoam cup in a campfire? Yikes. I am using sheets of the foil-backed gold colored foam. (polyiso or polyeurathane?) It will burn if you stick it in a flame. But as soon as you pull the flame away, it goes out on its own. I've tested this. I have two layers going in. One is tucked into the existing ceiling where the old fiberglass was. (1.25") Then furring strips will go on and another layer of foam will be sandwiched by wood plank paneling simiar to MAK's knotty pine. Question: How much good does sealing the seams with foil tape do? I paid $15 for a role and it goes quickly with all the seams in curved roof. Is it worth the expense given my multiple layers? Scott P.S. I sure can see the conduction going on thru the ribs with that foil tape on there. It fogs up and marks with certainty all the ribs. That is why I am doing two layers on the ceiling. . . | ||
| Craig S (65.202.123.254) Rating: N/A |
Hi Scott, With two layers you get a chance to overlap the joints. I'm sure you already thought of that. Craig S | ||
| Ross Carlisle (Ross) (216.107.197.185)
Rating: N/A |
You could use blue board foam. here is no foam contractor within a reasonable distance of where I live so professionally sprayed foam was out of the question. When I looked at the McMasters kits, the price turned me right off of that. I ended up doing the ceiling in blue board foam. The job went very fast. Did the ceiling in a day. I did the walls with fiberglass last summer but now wish I had done them in foam board as well. Live and learn. With foam board, there is no messy cleanup like you have with spray foam. I think all things considered, the foam boards might even be quicker. I had $140 in the cieling. That was one 1" board and one 3/4" board. Ross | ||
| Ross Carlisle (Ross) (216.107.197.185)
Rating: N/A |
"I am using sheets of the foil-backed gold colored foam. (polyiso or polyeurathane?) It will burn if you stick it in a flame. But as soon as you pull the flame away, it goes out on its own. I've tested this. " That foil backed polyiso foam is not water proof. It will evenually soak up water like a sponge. Someone on the lake here built a dock using it as flotation. In 3 days the dock was on the bottom. The foam was completely saturated. Blue styrofoam will not absorb water. Ross | ||
| R.C.Bishop (128.123.221.148)
Rating: N/A |
Scott....use cork tape on the metal members. All of them. 800-230-4105.....ask for Heather. ( Pres-On Tape and Gasket Corp.) RCB | ||
| OAE Palmer (208.164.96.21) Rating: N/A |
Actually I was the one who failed to mention the proper characteristics of "hard foam". As it was explained to me, the number of air pockets is nearly identicial in soft and hard foams. It is the strength of the material after it "cures" that determines the density. Think of the difference between Balsa and dense pine.....and that is the difference you will see between the softest and hardest foams. As an example(ok it's lame )....if you were to use a soft foam on the ceiling of a GM PD4100 series, walking on the area between the ribs on the roof would cause dimpling if done by a 250lb person.....hard foamed it would be as solid as a wooden deck is. I have seen the inside of cube vans that were soft foamed and used for ice deliveries. When the HDPE walls were removed to be used in new trucks there was quite a bit of foam dust on the floor that used to be on the walls. Flexing of the box had caused cracks and chaffing and then dust. AND FWIW....If you don't have access to a spray foam genius, head for the local Bang Your Thumb Mega store and go for the foil/foam board route. Doing so will get you on the road faster, cheaper and warmer than 90% of the "optionals". | ||
| David & Lorna Schinske (Davidschinske) (64.24.236.66)
Rating: N/A |
I think what 3-1.3 is referring to is the use of plastic foam mouldings & trim. The ones I'm talking about have a smooth plastic front with a yellowish foam on back like what is used in really cheap trailers. Some, not all, have incorporated flame retarders. Lorna 1972 Eagle 05 Bus Conversion "The goal of life is living in agreement with Nature" Zeno (335BC-264BC) | ||
| AceWelding (216.119.12.50)
Rating: N/A |
For hot spray foam, look in the yellow pages under roofing, and then call everyone that lists foam or sprayed roofing. There's a fellow in Galt, CA (near Sacramento) who will do a 40' coach for around $1200. Same dollars as two of the Froth-paks, and no toxic fumes or hassle not to mention a better, consistently applied product. If you insist on DIY, look at the foam kits sold by McMaster-Carr. They are available online. | ||
| John Biundo (Jbiundo) (64.175.39.169)
Rating: N/A |
AceWelding, Do you have contact info on the Galt outfit? I'm a couple hours away, and would like to see if he'd come here. Thanks, John | ||
| Dale MC8 (66.42.75.228)
Rating: N/A |
John, just sticking my nose in here because I was in the same boat. There is an earlier thread that mentions the Galt place. Look up the entries on Dec 7, 2002 for more info. I called this place and got told that he would NOT travel. Maybe you can do better. HTH Dale | ||
| John Biundo (Jbiundo) (64.175.39.169)
Rating: N/A |
Dale, Found it, thanks! BTW, what did you end up doing for insulation? john | ||
| Dale MC8 (64.66.196.61)
Rating: N/A |
John, I'm still working on it *sigh* Dale |
