| Author | Message | ||
| Jim Wilkerson (Wagwar)
Registered Member Username: Wagwar Post Number: 14 Registered: 12-2009 Posted From: 149.173.6.51 Rating: N/A |
Hi, I've found a very nice bus, and I'm trying to analyze the pros/cons of the electrical system for boondocking/dry camping. If I have 50A service it is golden - but boondocking may be an issue if I want to minimize running the genset. Here are the specs: MC9, 50A service, 12V DC and 120V AC 50amp converter (no inverter) 2 255ah deep cycles - house 2 8D start batts - bus 15KW diesel genset all electric appliances Webasto diesel Marientic control center w/breakers, AC/DC meters and Newmar Battery Monitor Cons: As I see it, I'm limited to running the genset anytime I need 120V ac (when dry camping) for: computers and appliances, etc. Otherwise I have 12V DC only. Pros: No propane tanks to deal with. Can you think of other 'issues' that I haven't thought of? Thanks! | ||
| Bill Gerrie (Bill_gerrie)
Registered Member Username: Bill_gerrie Post Number: 346 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 216.198.139.38  Rating: N/A |
jim If you like the bus it is easy but not cheap to put in an inverter. As you are all electric you will need around a 4000 watt inverter or run the generator when you need heavy draw items to run. The best one to look at is a true sine wave with a built in 3 stage charger. A little pricey but worth it. You will also need to put in more batteries. Golf cart type are the best and reasonable in cost. If you do a lot of dry camping you should look at putting a few solar panels on the roof as well. | ||
| Jack Conrad (Jackconrad)
Registered Member Username: Jackconrad Post Number: 1206 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 74.4.63.215  Rating: N/A |
"our way" is to use a 2500 watt Heart-Interface inverter for the small AC loads such as computers, TVs, satelite receiver, DVD player, lights, phone chargers,etc. and run the generator for larger items such as AC, water heater, convection oven. YMMV, Jack | ||
| Jim Shepherd (Rv_safetyman)
Registered Member Username: Rv_safetyman Post Number: 296 Registered: 1-2004 Posted From: 69.130.47.209 Rating: N/A |
Well, now that the board is back up, I will post the information I jotted down (saved it after I figured out that the board had a problem). Better late than never. My reply is about the same as has already been posted. Jim, the best solution is to install a good inverter and about 8 golf batteries. That way, you can have the 120 for the better part of a day without running the generator. That assumes you are running the items that are not huge users (stove, microwave, etc). When you need to run them, you use the generator and power the components WHILE charging the batteries. You would need to do some rewiring so that the things you want to run on the inverter are powered by it (either by the inverter/batteries or the pole/generator via the pass through feature). Without an inverter, the coach will not be good at dry camping. Jim (Message edited by rv_safetyman on January 22, 2010) | ||
| Jim Blumenthal (Jimblu)
Registered Member Username: Jimblu Post Number: 12 Registered: 11-2008 Posted From: 208.168.236.246 Rating: N/A |
Consider adding a battery power monitor too. They are not perfect, but do allow you to monitor use. I have it by the door and check it when we head out so no loads are left on. | ||
| Jim Wilkerson (Wagwar)
Registered Member Username: Wagwar Post Number: 15 Registered: 12-2009 Posted From: 12.158.159.60 Rating: N/A |
Thanks so much for the response! I'm probably missing something important, but another question I had was what keeps the house batts charged while running down the road? The bus is 24V, but house lights, refrig, etc. are 12V. So, if the refrig and lights are being used as we roll down the road (even with an inverter I'd have the same problem) what keeps the house batts charged? Reading Sean's blog I see that he can use the engine alt to charge and other buses have a small 12V alt, but this bus still has the OEM AC so a small 12V doesn't seem feasible. | ||
| David Evans (Dmd)
Registered Member Username: Dmd Post Number: 417 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 173.68.141.245  Rating: N/A |
Dump the oem a/c and use that large alt. to charge the new invertor bank. roof airs or basement air run off Gen set. and hi to Wendy from dave and dori. | ||
| Bill Holstein (Billmoocow)
Registered Member Username: Billmoocow Post Number: 52 Registered: 5-2009 Posted From: 98.232.207.25  Rating: N/A |
Boon docking or dry camping is and art. If you dont want to worry about running a generator for a long time: LP is the only way to go. Only a pilot light to keep fridge going, which is the main thing. Keeping that fridge going to save your precious, perishable food. All one needs is light once in a while in the dark: 12volt. Other then that? You are living too large boondocking/dry camping for long periods. Sometimes you have to give up the luxuries when dry camping. By the way, Lp stove works great and so does outside campfire cooking. | ||
| Bill Holstein (Billmoocow)
Registered Member Username: Billmoocow Post Number: 53 Registered: 5-2009 Posted From: 98.232.207.25 Rating: N/A |
Definately need an inverter though! A good one, with good batteries! | ||
| Tom Christman (Tchristman)
Registered Member Username: Tchristman Post Number: 174 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.218.33.156 Rating: N/A |
I would add a 4,000 watt inverter-then you also have a built in smart battery charger. With all the electrical load, I would also add 3 more 8D deep cycle batteries. I like using odd number, then you wire the batteries to have the center battery with the load wires, and the two sets of outer batteries are there for extra capacity. Good Luck, TomC | ||
| Jim and Myrna Lawrence (Daffycanuck)
Registered Member Username: Daffycanuck Post Number: 61 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 66.82.9.49  Rating: N/A |
We have been boondocking in our bus for thirteen years, 7 years fulltime. We do not 'camp' we 'live' in our unit. 120v is provided with a Trace 4000 watt pure sine inverter. Stove, fridge and HW heater are run on propane when stopped. We have Satellite internet and TV. Experience have PROVEN to me that 8 golf cart batteries is too many. They do not get charged fully without a huge solar bank. We have cut down to 4 trojan 6 volt(24v) which is more than ample with our 390 watt solar. I am anal when it comes to checking my batteries. Although I use an e-meter as a guide, I only trust a specific gravity tester for true charge level. I installed a 24v, 175 amp alt to charge house and starting batteries while running down the road. We occasionally run our roof top air and always our fridge, while running down the road off that alt. That's my story!! | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 1002 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.15  Rating: N/A |
Jim, Lots of good info here, but I don't see an answer to your question:
The answer is: you'll have to look or ask the seller. But this is a great question. It's actually possible that nothing does, depending on how the original builder equipped the coach and how it was used. More likely, there is either a 12v alternator tucked someplace, or a 24-12v converter to provide charge while driving. Frankly, I am leery of 24-v buses with 12-v house systems, as interconnecting the systems becomes a major challenge. Usually, the connection, if any, is unidirectional, meaning you can't easily use the house bank to start the coach in an emergency.
I disagree with this statement, FWIW. We can run our fridge indefinitely on our solar panels; heat and hot water comes from diesel (generally cheaper per BTU), and I am partial to induction for cooking. So, no, I don't think buying an all-electric coach is a mistake, although you may need to change out some appliances for more efficient ones if you boondock a lot (induction instead of radiant cooktop; high-efficiency 12/24-volt fridge instead of household style).
This statement makes no sense to me. Either you make enough excess power to charge batteries, or you don't. If you do, they will eventually charge fully. If you expect to fully charge batteries every day, you are probably not maximizing the return on the battery investment. The more battery capacity you have, the longer you can go without having to charge. If you only ever boondock where there is enough solar to run everything (and you have an austere enough lifestyle to do so), then, yes, all you need is one night's worth. However, that ignores the fact that many of us do not travel that way, and would like to use every precious watt-hour we can squeeze out of our alternators while driving. Or, for that matter, want to be able to run an air conditioner overnight without having the genny running. I've got over 22 kWh of capacity (80% usable), and I would double that in a heartbeat if I could afford the space and the weight. It's also a little presumptive to tell someone looking at an all-electric coach how many batteries he will need based on your experience with a mostly-LP coach. Two very, very different animals. There is never one single right answer to these questions. It always comes down to how you intend to use your coach. What works for someone who spends four months at the slabs in one spot doesn't work for someone who moves from RV park to RV park every two weeks, or someone who drives two hours every day and stays at Wal-Mart. And if you do quite a bit of each of those things, then you will necessarily make compromises. FWIW. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| Jim Wilkerson (Wagwar)
Registered Member Username: Wagwar Post Number: 17 Registered: 12-2009 Posted From: 69.151.56.24 Rating: N/A |
Thanks Sean and everyone else for your help! In fact, I asked the seller how the house batts are charged running down the road - he said they arent'. There is no secondary 12V alt. So, if there is a 24V-12V converter running off the alternator or bus batts, he did not say that. The stove is halogen - and I'm not familiar with that type exc. it is definitely electric  This bus was a professional conversion on a new '85 shell by Pacific Coachworks. Although I have not see the bus, the pics seem to indicate a very high quality conversion. Of course, I would not purchase any bus until I had seen it and inspected it carefully. So at this point I'm evaluating the wisdom of investing in airfare and vacaion to see it. Still, I am concerned that even tho' the bus foundation is excellent. it is not set up optimally for boondocking. From this thread, I can assume a couple of things: it will need an inverter (size, type, etc. TBD), it will need a way to keep the house batts charged. Are there other must haves? I realize that a 24V/120V electrical system might be preferable to the 12V/120V system this bus has (I've read the electrical articles on Seans blog), but is that enough reason to 'keep looking'? With these basic needs, how complex/expensive/difficult will it be to retrofit some of these requirements? In other words, if the rest of the bus is good are these upgrades still enough for me to 'keep looking'? Jim | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 1003 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 72.171.0.145 Rating: N/A |
Jim, I will tell you from experience that many high-end professionally converted buses are NOT set up at all for boondocking, and, in most cases, will require a great deal of modification to do so. From what little you have already written, I would say you are looking at one right now. My own coach was this way when we got it -- if you didn't have a 50-amp shore connection, then the generator had to be running even to boil water for tea. The thinking behind this by many high-end converters is that the batteries are just to tide you over from shore power to shore power, and that you'll run the generator 24/7 if you have a night away from a power pole. Sad, but true. Without inspecting it I can't really say for sure what this one would take. But I am willing to bet that you'd need to make several expensive changes to get it up to snuff, including adding some way to charge the house bank while driving, lots more batteries, and more energy-efficient appliances. That stuff can easily run to $10,000, if the coach even has the room for everything it needs. Also note the genny in there probably drinks well over a gallon per hour at half load. We had the same issue, and even though we rebuilt the coach to need only about a third as much power, we opted to keep the big genny. I have some regrets about that now, and think that, were I to do it over, I would downsize to a 6,500 watt unit. FWIW. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| Jim Wilkerson (Wagwar)
Registered Member Username: Wagwar Post Number: 18 Registered: 12-2009 Posted From: 12.158.159.57 Rating: N/A |
Thanks so much! It's good to have your concerns confirmed, although also disappointing as this bus has so many other outstanding features that we really like (8V92TA and 5 Spd Allison, less than 215K TOTAL MILES on a pampered coach - just for starters)! However, I think Sean, your last comment regarding 'room for everything it needs' is especially insightful. The bays on this one are mostly filled w/systems. Only one full side-side bay empty plus a few nooks and crannies. This seems to be very common on the high-end pro units. The other big issue, I think, is the A/C. It has the OEM engine driven A/C system and the seller admits it probably needs to be charged. There are also 3 central A/C units in the basement. That's a lot of weight and storage space just for A/C... How suitable is a central A/C unit for boondocking - assuming the right inverter/batt investment)? Do rooftop units offer more flexibility in that situation? For A/C running down the road, can a central unit be run off an inverter if the engine alt is being used as input - as some do w/ a rooftop unit? You can probably see where I'm going with this - will the central units have to be pulled out and replaced w/ rooftop units? It sounds like the list of 'cons' is getting long... Regards, Jim | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 1004 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.31 Rating: N/A |
Whether or not central units are suitable for boondocking or can be easily run from an inverter while driving depends on the specifics of the units and their controls. Impossible to say from where I sit. Roof units are always more efficient, almost by definition. Usually, they can also be selectively run, one, two, or three at a time according to need, which might make them better for boondocking than larger basement units. That said, unless you are looking at a major remodel such as the one we did, you probably do not want to try to change from basement to roofs on an existing coach. That could be a major project depending on access to ducting, the ability to run wires to the roof, etc. etc. I must say, though, that if you are looking principally at pre-existing professional conversions, which are an extremely good value right now, almost all of them will have these issues to some extent. As I wrote earlier, very few are originally built with boondocking in mind. You might want to emphasize, in your search, coaches that have more potential for modification to the style that suits you, rather than trying to find one that will work out of the box. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| Jim Wilkerson (Wagwar)
Registered Member Username: Wagwar Post Number: 20 Registered: 12-2009 Posted From: 12.158.159.61 Rating: N/A |
I just wanted to Thank Sean and all the rest of you who responded to this thread. This is such a great resource and I really appreciate all of the generosity I see here. Still looking, Jim | ||
| Jim and Myrna Lawrence (Daffycanuck)
Registered Member Username: Daffycanuck Post Number: 62 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.19.14.15 Rating: N/A |
"Experience have PROVEN to me that 8 golf cart batteries is too many. They do not get charged fully without a huge solar bank." That was my statement...... This is Seans statement.... "This statement makes no sense to me." I think Sean you should read my statement again. "Either you make enough excess power to charge batteries, or you don't. If you do, they will eventually charge fully." and isn't that what I said??? As I did have some battery problems and consultation with a battery expert, it was determined I did not have enough solar to charge the 8 battery bank I had so I downsized from 8 to 4 batteries....and since I did it has worked perfectly....with my solar bank. With our coach we use roughly 65 to 70 (24v)amp hours per night....TV (sound system, receiver), Internet (modem, router), 2 laptops and any lights we may have on. All my statements made are supported by the experience I've had over 13 years of boondocking....and I've posted here for others to use as they see fit. I'm sorry if I haven't written it in a fashion that all can understand. | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 1006 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 72.171.0.146 Rating: |
My point was, eight is (apparently) too many for you. You wrote it, though, as if advising the OP, who was looking at an all electric coach, that eight would also be too many for him. I submit you have no way to know that without doing the analysis. You even typed "proven" in ALL CAPS, which suggests to readers that it's your way or the highway. More importantly, the specs on the coach we were discussing (and please note, that's what this thread started with, not a generalized discussion of how you, I, or anyone else boondocks) mentioned nothing at all about solar, but stated there was a 15 kW generator available. I submit that eight batteries in that installation is "just getting started." It is important to remember, when giving advice here, whom you're writing to. Now if you had merely preceded your write up with "In our situation," or maybe even with the suggestion that fewer than eight batteries might be optimal if the base technologies of the subject coach were changed, or if the OP wanted to install solar, or similar, it might have come across differently. But instead it came across as a hard and fast rule, and I felt it important for the OP and other readers to hear that these particular conditions apply to you and you alone -- no two coaches in this forum are alike. As for the bit about charging batteries fully with solar, perhaps my own wording was unclear. When I said that makes no sense to me, what I meant was that it did not make sense in the context of the OP's question. As I wrote earlier, if your goal is to remain parked in one spot for a long period of time (weeks, not days) and have enough solar to meet your daily needs, then optimizing the size of the battery plant such that the average daily recharge capacity, which should equal the average daily consumption, is about 30% of the total capacity of the bank, which will allow the bank to charge to 80% every day and discharge to 50% every night. Fewer batteries than that will cause over-discharge, and more will eventually cause battery sulfation without careful attention to equalization. But, again, none of that is relevant to the OP's situation. Hope that clarifies my remarks. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 1066 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 63.97.174.202  Rating: N/A |
"For A/C running down the road, can a central unit be run off an inverter if the engine alt is being used as input - as some do w/ a rooftop unit?" This can be easily done , but the price is one heck of an expensive inverter.Far cheaper to run the noisemaker 1000hours of road time. Remember for good sine wave power there ARE small efficient sine wave units , priced in the hundreds not thousands of dollars. Charge 80% every day and discharge to 50% This is the most common long term batt management method , BUT remember even with infrequent 100% charges the service life and capacity is being reduced. In other words after 3 or 4 years its 50% of a smaller number of amps than when the batt set was new. It all is the tradeoff between noisemaker time and battery charge times vs battery life. FF | ||
| Ralph Peters (Ralph7)
Registered Member Username: Ralph7 Post Number: 97 Registered: 3-2004 Posted From: 75.244.84.92 Rating: N/A |
I enjoy reading this thead cause My way 12v./30a.house(bus). I added a 24v./50a. alt. for start batt., had to drop the big 24v.alt. cause went to fire truck engine so not enough drives on engine for it, and also a 12v./60a. alt.. Both are driven off the old AC groves on the crank pulley. We have a regular 10 cu. refrig. and DSI hot water heator, gas stove is DSI or use a lighter, so I need to get an inverter yet. So for now we need to plugin, but wil go with 4 or 6 -6V. to make 12V. bank, also house battery runs bus running lights. SLOVED speedo problem, bought a Garmin 1390T. | ||
| Jim Wilkerson (Wagwar)
Registered Member Username: Wagwar Post Number: 21 Registered: 12-2009 Posted From: 12.158.159.58 Rating: N/A |
"Charge to 80% every day and discharge to 50%" Why 80% - 50%? Why not 100% - 70%. What is the significance of 80%? | ||
| Jack Conrad (Jackconrad)
Registered Member Username: Jackconrad Post Number: 1214 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 99.204.87.0 Rating: |
The last 20% of a charge takes a much longer time than the first 80%. The 50% is because most battery manufacturers recommend not discharging a battery below 50% for maximum battery life. Jack | ||
| Nellie Wilson (Vivianellie)
Registered Member Username: Vivianellie Post Number: 438 Registered: 11-2008 Posted From: 74.4.63.215  Rating: N/A |
Man! How you guys DO get into the 'who's dick is bigger' bicker. We're (most of us) driving cast-off old crates that we lovingly nuture (slowly, in my case) back to life. And we're ALL shootin' from the hip. Me, more than most, but still... Sheesh. Nellie Wilson | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1083 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.208.151.191 Rating: |
Not sure you interpret things as they are presented, Vivian....  Each of us...including Nellie, I would guess, have an "experience quotient" that is meaningful to us and would not want to change it because it works for us; never mind the pros that have all the dots and tittles in line. And, most often we don't mind passing it on, FWIW. There is plenty of room, from my point of view, for lots of "food for thought".. Sean knows the "code" and the physics. Others know the practicality of what they have before (or behind) them. Take it or reject it...your choice. Wisdom usually comes with "experience".....in spite of what college professors emulate. (BTDT) This forum is a valuable and free source of very worth while information, thanx to Ian. What one does with that information is strictly "personal". For better...or for worse, why not sit back, relax and take it all in......stide.... Size is no the issue......it's performance!! RCB | ||
| Jim and Myrna Lawrence (Daffycanuck)
Registered Member Username: Daffycanuck Post Number: 63 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.19.14.25 Rating: N/A |
Damn RC, I love the way you express it!! | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 769 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 71.53.153.91  Rating: N/A |
I voted for chuckie cheese gomer | ||
| Paul Lawry (Dreamscape)
Registered Member Username: Dreamscape Post Number: 630 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 64.40.216.57  Rating: N/A |
The information is only as good as how it's presented. In this medium you can say the same thing many different ways, and everyone sees a different conclusion. It's all about perception. | ||
| Nellie Wilson (Vivianellie)
Registered Member Username: Vivianellie Post Number: 440 Registered: 11-2008 Posted From: 74.4.63.215 Rating: N/A |
Gosh - guess I shouldn't have forgotten the 'smiley face.' Some folks don't know to laugh without one. But, seriously, just poking a little fun at "the boys." But like Paul says, "It's all about perception." I stand before you chastened but unbowed, Nellie Hey! Just had a thought... maybe Obama could use an "Applause Card?" You know, to go wih his (indispensible) teleprompter. Great speech last night... eh? | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 1007 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 72.171.0.143 Rating: N/A |
Now that Nellie is chaste, I guess we can go back to comparing sizes without recrimination. ;) -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1085 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 70.210.242.8 Rating: N/A |
"Great speech last night... eh? "....... "......etc, etc.......blah, blah blah.......more etc, etc...fight fight fight....etc, etc, etc....blah blah..., I inherited....blah blah..... ...Nancy must be worn out from all the ups and downs....; I'll bet Joe's head is still uh,..wobbling... Wonder if Alito still mumbling to himself? Wonder what the "rest of the world" thinks about such events. State of the Union...? Stay chaste Nellie BTW...Sean's post is usually longer than others........ RCB (Message edited by Chuckllb on January 28, 2010) (Message edited by Chuckllb on January 28, 2010) | ||
| Tim Brandt (Timb)
Registered Member Username: Timb Post Number: 486 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 74.251.162.133  Rating: N/A |
RC with regard to the rest of the world wonder no more. From the UK http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/tobyharnden/100023764/barack-obama-is-in-denial/ | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 1790 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 76.71.107.42  Rating: N/A |
Sheesh...This isn't the other board, this one is about buses, coaches, transits, the odd schoolie, and a truck conversion or two. Even wanna bees. let's keep the contentious issues (like politics) elsewhere, eh? happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1088 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 70.210.242.8 Rating: N/A |
Well, now BW,... it still is about buses... diversification a bit from time to time, perhaps, but did that ever hurt anyone? (feelings excepted)....Shame on me! now I feel chaste...ized Gee Whiz; ... I am still a wannabee. How about you? No contentions here...... Lively (friendly) discussion censored is uh... still political...or? Pardon my "perception" (see above posts). Thanx Ian, for the opportunity!!!!! As someone said...sheeeesh! : Happy Busing back at ya!! RCB | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 773 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 71.53.153.91 Rating: N/A |
But WE are getting a HIGH SPEED RAIL that will stop outside Tampa or Orlando, depending where they start. That way we can charter a BUS to go the rest of the way lol lol lol Oh Shut up gomer!! Ok I will. Gomer | ||
| Nellie Wilson (Vivianellie)
Registered Member Username: Vivianellie Post Number: 441 Registered: 11-2008 Posted From: 74.4.63.215 Rating: N/A |
From Chucklib: "Sean's post is usually longer than others........" See? Exactly what I'm talking about... glad to hear it from an independent observer. From Buswarrior: "eh?" Gomer- Shush! That smacks of elitism. Or, at the very least, of raw politics. Anyway, a Train to Nowhere is heaps better than a bridge to that same place. You keep it up and BO will be redistributing our buses to the monthly pass crowd. Your most chaste-ist busnut of all time (unless you send photos), Nellie |
