| Author |
Message |
Henry R. Bergman, Jr. (Henryofcj) (65.194.145.40)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 01, 2003 - 6:43 pm: | |
Hello Everyone:
How much fuel, water and holding tank capacity is enough? Can you have too much? Can you have too little? How is such a determination made?
I plan on using my Crown Coach primarily for extending dry camping or boondocking as FF says. Would this make a difference on various capacities?
Do not plan, nor can afford to frequent full hookup campgrounds. Chassis loading fortunately is not an issue. 16K front, 34K drivers. 24K stripped, 47K GVWR.
Right now the game plan is for 200 gallons of fuel and 200 gallons of water and holding. Is this too much or too little? Configered for 2 adults. Thanks in advance. Henry of CJ |
Johnny (67.241.166.188)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 01, 2003 - 7:01 pm: | |
You want as much fresh & waste water as you can fit, especially with weight a non-issue for you. For boondocking, trust me here: from experience, lugging water gets old fast. |
R.C.Bishop (128.123.221.181)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 01, 2003 - 8:02 pm: | |
Henry, that is a question I keep asking myself but since I intend to keep all the tanks above floor level it has narrowed the choice quite a bit.
I am, however, plumbing for eventual POSSIBLE placement of tanks in the trunk. Not a priority at this point. I lived in Colorado for 28 years plus and know that anything under the coach gets "froze up" pretty quick in cold climate.
Meantime shooting for 100 gallons fresh and gray/black so that we can use the coach comfortably. In my 36 foot fifthwheel trailer, we have never had a problem with 55 gallons fresh and about the same in gray/black. But we are used to using water and propane very sparingly. As needed, not 10 minute showers and unnecessary heating, etc.
FWIW
RCB |
CoryDaneRTSIIIL (4.17.253.222)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 01, 2003 - 8:04 pm: | |
MY almost retired 78 Motorhome carries 30 gallons and with strict water control and very short showers, lasted a week for 2 people and 2 dogs. This was being extremely prudent with water use.
I am trying for 100 gal in my bus and a similar size for gray. I am looking at adding a second potable tank where the air con condensor is above the engine. I think I can add another 55 gal at least there.
I am looking strongly at using a INCINOLET for the potty chair so there will be NO BLACK tank, otherwise I would put in a black tank of about half what the grey is.
My decisions have been influenced with the size of space I have to install tanks, as would all installations. I hope this was helpful. cd |
Tom Caffrey (Pvcces) (64.114.233.21)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 01, 2003 - 8:21 pm: | |
The black tank doesn't need to be very big if there is a provision for overflow into the grey tank. Even with careful use, we always run short of grey tank space first.
Our coach was set up with 125 fresh, 45 grey and 45 black, with an overflow between the black and the grey. We try to dump before using the overflow, but if I can figure out a way to put in up to 45 gallons more tank, it will be all grey.
Then, I think we'll be set up about right for us. We do have full laundry, and there are two of us. If it happens that we can dump someplace and then park nearby, we do sometimes do laundry and then dump again.
If we're traveling where we expect to find a dump station ahead of us, then we sometimes do laundry while underway. So far, this has worked out fine.
For what it's worth.
Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576
Suncatcher |
Dale MC8 (64.66.195.200)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 01, 2003 - 8:27 pm: | |
Cory, is the INCINOLET you mentioned the gizmo that pumps potty chair residue into the exhaust system and burns it up? If so, won't you have to do a lot more driving than you need to? If I'm wrong or even not in the ball park or even if I'm right, let us all know what's going on in your coach's black system.
Thanks,
Dale |
Scott Whitney (66.82.9.13)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 01, 2003 - 11:04 pm: | |
It does burn the waste, but not in the exhaust pipe.
Uses about 1½ kilowatt hour of electricity per cycle. Electricity may be needed all the time, even during off seasons, to operate evaporation fan and heater.
Here are the details:
http://www.incinolet.com/
My concern with this device would be power consumption when booning.
Scott |
Perry W Munger IV (64.81.114.17)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 1:21 am: | |
Hmm. Water is 62.4 lbs/ft^3 or 8.33 Lbs/gal MSL. 280 gallons water is 2 333 #. 280 gallons wastewater will be about the same. Diesel is 7.03 #/gal. There's 7.481 gal/ft^3. That means that a 280 gallon tank is 37.4 ft^3. There's all sorts of ways to arrange that. 1 406 # (200 gal Diesel) + 2 333 # (water) + 2 333 # (black/grey combo tank) = 6072 # max and 3 739 # average because normally the black water tank is empty when the water tank is full and vice-versa.
Two tons isn't much in a coach, although it'd kill a normal RV. One of the reasons I'm building my own is that I intend to live in it full time, driving part time to seminars and such, and can't stand non-flush toilets. A modern flush toilet runs 1.6 gal/use, meaning that three people on a trip will use it, what, five times a day or so apiece, for 45 uses per day or 72 gallons. I don't plan on boondocking much, obviously, but at least I can make three days travel on my tanks (216 gal flushing alone). Also, at 6 MPG, that's 20 hours or 1200 MI range, not counting the regular diesel tank...
I won't always need the capacity, but it's nice to know it's there if I want it. |
Perry W Munger IV (64.81.114.17)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 2:21 am: | |
Oops, overcalculated. That's:
3 people x 5 flushes x 3 days x 1.6 gallons = 72 gallons.
Then, I multiplied that by 3 again. Don't really need 280 gallons after all... |
FAST FRED (209.26.115.218)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 5:43 am: | |
The amount of water & waste you need will much more be a function of the lifestyle you LEARN to live with.(A camper isn't a house)
AS sailors we are very aware of water use and have gone 3 months on 200G in the Bahamas.
With no deprevation Camping , 55G a week for two is very generous,
and can be stretched to 10 days when needed.
The biggest uncontrolled use of water seems to be dishwashing.
By rinsing with a pitcher (like your great granny did) you have far greater appreciation for how much water your ACTUALLY using.
A spray unit as usually found in sinks is great for the shower.
No, there not for Long Karma Restorating sessions , only for getting clean.
A half pint thru the RV toilet with each flush , helps keep water use down.
A good one has the SAME size china bowl & full sized seat as the Home Depot units, but gets about 16X more flushes per gal.
FAST FRED |
David & Lorna Schinske (Davidschinske) (64.24.236.152)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 8:46 am: | |
Marine/RV toilet units like Sealand traveler use far less water than home toilets. While I am capible of emptying a 60 gal water heat of hot water with 1 shower (and have done it one more than 1 occassion..Kids too), I also can take very quick showers. More difficult motivating 2 teen girls to do same. Try seeing (at home) how short a shower you can take and still comeout clean. You may need to change your soap as some soaps are harder to rinse off than others. Then multiply time by your low flow shower head gpm. Some of the shower heads get very low. But with the really low ones you have a hard time getting the shampoo/conditioner out of your hair if it's longish.
Lorna |
Johnny (67.241.166.111)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 12:16 pm: | |
There are high pressure/low volume showerheads available. I know, because I have one at home, that I bought to save money on hot water. It's 1.75-2GPM, cost $3 at a local hardware store. Mine is made by Resources Conservation, Inc. I have no trouble rinsing my hair, & neither does my wife (who has 6' of very thick hair). I plan to use the same type on my conversion. |
Scott Whitney (66.82.9.17)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 12:20 pm: | |
Ha ha ha. Karma Restoring Sessions. . . I wonder if I can restore my karma with my 6 Gal. Suburban water heater. LOL. Good one, Fred.
Scott |
CoryDaneRTSIIIL (4.17.253.2)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 4:27 pm: | |
The INCINOLET does not need a fan when off cycle, it only draws power when the cycle button is pushed.
I use a lot of campgrounds with power so I can run it unlimited. I also have solar panels to help when booning and then there is also the genset.
The Incinolet may have some inconveniences but I feel the Black water tank has a lot more that I dont want to deal with including maintenance.
I have been looking at the incinolet for a long time now and had email conversation with someone who is using it, they absolutely love it and would never go back to a black tank storage system. Now that the bus is being wired and walls going up, the decision is to go with the incinolet.
I will admit there are two reasons for going with the INCINOLET for me, I just mentioned one, the other is because of the bus. As I am converting the bus, I hear and see new laws being introduced all the time. My fear is the bus will be outlawed off the highways. SHOULD this happen, the bus will be permanently parked on my NewMexico Property and the INCINOLET will make the need for sewer or holding tank extinct. Sorry guys, but perhaps I am not as bold as some of you so I had to have a contingency plan.
I saw a message about a black tank overflowing into the gray. That will contaniminate the gray tank. ALL installations I have seen are the other way around, the gray overflows into the black. I think Ideally, the black can be the large tank and grey can overflow into black, at a park site, the benefit is you can run grey overflow to the park sewer and dump black periodically as needed.
I must admit, being we are acting as our own CONTRACTORS, you can build it "YOUR WAY" but after hearing how some solutions have been made for use or, worse yet, for sale, I now have the belief that there should be a standard to be followed for bus conversion. We as people are much too frail an animal to be sloppy, even though we are the "LEARNED" people we are. Just my opinion. cd |
Dale MC8 (64.66.204.94)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 5:47 pm: | |
As far as one tank overflowing and contaminating the other one, it doesn't matter what overflo's to what. If there are overflo's, BOTH tanks are by code black tanks. So what.
FYI
Dale |
Tom Caffrey (Pvcces) (64.114.233.151)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 7:25 pm: | |
I thought that the main reason for having a separate black tank was so it could "cook" between dumpings. As I understood it, you could get a black pyramid if you just left the drain open.
We have not had any problem with solids accumulating in the black tank, so I didn't plan to change what we are doing until I learn of a good reason to.
For what it's worth.
Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576
Suncatcher |
TomNPat (66.82.9.14)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 11:44 pm: | |
We have 120 fresh, 100 grey, and 60 black and can drain the extra grey to the black. Planned for a week for the two of us.
The one thing I wanted for sure was more grey/black capacity that my fresh. We do eat/drink out occasionally. We use bottled water, canned soda, bottled drinks, and a wee bit of a toddy on occasion, also, so wanted to make sure that our holding capacity exceed our beginning fresh. And, especially as I get older, I think my body absorbs water from the air. This is particularly true at night!
So my one caution, other than checking your own usage and planning accordingly, would be to have excess black/grey capacity for the 'added ingredients'
TomNPat |
dougthebonifiedbusnut (136.215.251.187)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 6:10 am: | |
once again i have to ask the question why seperate the black from the gray at all im going to only have one tank havent seen ar heard of a code that sats you cant it solves a lot of problems if the system is set up right oh ya greetings from holenfels germany |
Peter (Sdibaja) (209.242.148.130)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 10:50 am: | |
Doug: There have been a few times when I wondered when I would have a proper dump station available. No real worries because I can run my gray tank out into a ditch if I need to (but never have) and I like that option.
I use two tanks, with separate valves, plumbed into the same outlet, same as a commercial RV. My gray tank has an overflow that runs into the black tank if it gets too full.
Remember that gray water is considered “unclean”. It can carry those nasty bugs from bathing and food washing that get people sick (real sick)from, not to mention the soaps.
Both tanks are about 30 gallons. That is fine for black: good for more than a week or two, not enough for the gray, it fills up with a tub bath and a couple of long showers.
Go with two, I would choose 30 black and at least 75 to 100 gallons of gray tankage.
Peter
PS: my black tank overflow is gravity to the gray tank too, no pump needed... KISS! |
DaveD (216.18.113.69)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 11:09 am: | |
There are a couple of advantages to separate grey and black water tanks. Black water tanks work best when there is enough liquid to keep solids from building up on the bottom of the tank. When in a campground, the best procedure is to empty the black water tank once a day or less as needed.
Once the the black water tank is emptied, then the grey water tank dump valve can be opened, flushing the inside of the valve area and the sewer hose with somewhat less offensive (but still contaminated) soapy water, washing any solids down the hose. Some people also just keep the grey water valve open whenever connected in a campground. In this way there is no need to worry about overflowing the the grey water tank.
When not near a dump facility, it is nice to have separate grey and black water tanks. It eliminates the possibility (which can happen, particularly if you have guests who may not be as careful with water use as you might be) of prematurely filling the black water tank with grey water. Having a full black water tank, when not near a dump facilitiy is a more serious condition, particularly if no other washroom facilties are nearby, or it overflows.
DaveD |
Dale MC8 (64.66.203.129)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 11:33 am: | |
Doug, I think the last entries sum it up. The reason for two tanks is so the gray can be dumped without dumping the black. It is not required and early RV's only had one. HTH
Dale |
Scott Whitney (66.82.9.30)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 12:13 pm: | |
I think that a combined tank would be OK if there is a tank bypass valve allowing you to dump grey water overboard when needed. But my concern with a combined tank, is what happens if it is overfilled? The shower drain could back up with some nasties. Hopefully you'd be able to see the level thru the toilet before it ever got to that point.
But, I opted for a two tank system. If grey is overfilled, the shower stops draining and fills with grey water only. If the black tank is over filled, you can see it when you flush. But they are plumbed together so after dumping black, I can rinse the grey thru the black. Both tanks are built to black tank specs. and all piping is 3".
However, my biggest reason for a two tank system was I wanted maximum capacity I could fit in the minimal under-floor space in my transit.
Scott |
Peter Broadribb (Madbrit) (65.37.90.8)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 3:18 pm: | |
I know we all have our own little ways when it comes to handling the RV waste.
Mine is to allow the black to breakdown for weeks or even months between dumping. I pour the chemical in and dump 2 potty bowls of water down into the tank. This is enough to start the decomposition of the solids and I wait until I am getting a full tank before I dump. This is often after 2 or 3 long weekend trips, spread over a few months. Seems such a waste to dump all that chemical for only a few gallons of waste. When I do dump it, I have a clean tank, everything comes out just fine as it is all liquid, then I wash down the outlets and dump hose with the grey water.
Works for me.
Anyone have a trick on how to clean the level gauge contacts on my FRESH water tank, it's very slow in showing the 1/2 full light and the 1/4 light never comes on anymore.
Peter. |
Phil Pellowski (Viater) (164.58.86.161)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 3:23 pm: | |
I suppose one of the reasons I like the idea of a 2 tank set-up is, I plan to use my grey water when boondocking. I'm in the process of looking for a small bilge pump so I can pump my grey water through a spray nozzle into my toilet and I've also considered using treated grey water (filtered through a sand filter) for watering some plants that I plan to take along with me. DON'T GET ANY IDEAS, they're not THAT sort of plants!
Phil PD 4106-1726 |
Henry R. Bergman, Jr. (Henryofcj) (65.194.145.39)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 12:50 am: | |
Why can't we entertain ALL SORTS of ideas concerning your "take along plants"? Sounds OK to me. He he he!! Just kidding!!
During one afternoon cocktail hour which ran til midnight, we came up with the capacity of the REQUIRED hard liquor tankage in the coach.
The optional tankage for the required quantity of BEER was quickly put out of the question---one coach could simply not carry enough tonnage!!
Sosss....we had to "compromise" on the hard booze tank size. Finally figured it had to equal the total capacity of all the fuel tanks. He he he!
Thanks again for the GREAT responses to my basic question on tankage capacity--fuel, water, holding.....and booze! He he he again. Henry of CJ |
FAST FRED (209.26.115.201)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 6:06 am: | |
"When in a campground, the best procedure is to empty the black water tank once a day or less as needed."
I must disagree , once a day (unless its a combined black /grey tank) will NOT have enough water to move the soldiers.
The better procedure is to let the black tank fill quite full so the flow from a full tank FLUSHES the bigger particles.
For someone that purchases a coach , where the black tank has been mistreated , a half dozen bags of ice and some Stop & Go traffic is loads easier than attempting to spray with a "Majic Wand at the islands.
The combined tanks do nt suffer from this hassle , unless left OPEN all the time at a campground.
Seems to me the "best" would be large combined tank with campground bypass to run the washer , dishwasher & RO machine.
FAST FRED |
DaveD (64.235.198.76)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 6:45 am: | |
You're right Fred. Keeping enough fluid in the black water tank is pretty important. The key words there are "or less". It just depends on how many people you have using it. Solids can be a real pain to remove if they build up in the tank.
DaveD |
Larry Baird (Airhog) (66.171.52.47)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 1:55 am: | |
I lived in my bus for 2 years, showered everyday (real shower) and dumped every other week. I have a black and brown tank, black on the outside and I think its brown on the inside, never looked. The tank is 250 gal. the only time I worry about it is when I wash clothes. My fresh water tank is 100 gal., so I fill it twice before I need to look for someplace to dump. I will be putting in a bypass valve for the washer, thanks for the idea Fred. Big bus = Big tank, why worry, I got a bus so I didn’t need to worry about the weight. |
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