| Author | Message | ||
| Peter River (Whitebus)
Registered Member Username: Whitebus Post Number: 209 Registered: 4-2009 Posted From: 24.234.166.174  Rating: N/A |
I got one of those air operated doors. when the air leaks out, it has a tendency to slowly open the door, so I air up the bus to prevent from happening. not this time though. the thing is stuck closed, and the bus is completely aired down. I don't have a way to air it back up, because i don't have a remote start like most of the folks here do. I am stuck outside. door is a Bode, it closes and pushes the door up into locking. what's the best way to air it up? | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 1804 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 76.68.122.72  Rating: N/A |
Somewhere there should be an air connection, often on an air tank, sometimes a remote one on buses like the one in your picture, in the engine room, behind some little flap door, front back side, all depends on the manufacturer or the whims of the previous owners. Easily installed in place of the tank drain, a 1/4 turn valve with a male air fitting to let you connect shop air and open the valve to fill. No rear engine start controls in that rig? That door should just pull out with no air pressure... frozen shut with some moisture on the seals? Give it a good shoulder bump and yank on the handles. happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| Peter River (Whitebus)
Registered Member Username: Whitebus Post Number: 211 Registered: 4-2009 Posted From: 24.234.166.174 Rating: N/A |
Never had to work with air stuff before. where can I find a 1/4 turn valve? I would love to have one of those air inflation thing like on a tire that I can just attach a compressor and inflate in an emergency. I checked harbor freight, but didn't see anything like that. | ||
| Cory hart (Chart1)
Registered Member Username: Chart1 Post Number: 17 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 98.172.60.235  Rating: N/A |
Harbor freight has them back by the air compressor fittings it is just a ball valve or shut off valve. I got all my stuff there for air leaving system on my coach. Or got to your local hardware store . Lowes, Menards, Home Depot | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1128 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.211.8.132 Rating: N/A |
From my point of view...and FWIW....something like you are looking for would best be purchased at a plumbing supply. Leakage is not a wanted factoe in an air line system... I buy lotsa' stuff from HF, but not that, for sure).  RCB | ||
| Patrick levenson (Zubzub)
Registered Member Username: Zubzub Post Number: 155 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 174.91.229.84  Rating: N/A |
FWIW DOT fittings are available and not much more than HF stuff (maybe 30% more) | ||
| Peter River (Whitebus)
Registered Member Username: Whitebus Post Number: 212 Registered: 4-2009 Posted From: 24.234.166.174 Rating: N/A |
yes but where would I find those? remember I am a complete newbie when it comes to air systems. | ||
| Patrick levenson (Zubzub)
Registered Member Username: Zubzub Post Number: 156 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 174.91.229.84 Rating: N/A |
I buy my DOT stuff from a bearing store that sells lots of truck stuff, seems to have everything, but I'm jsut lucky. Good prices online if you know your sizes or look around for a heavy duty tractor trailer store and do some comparison shopping. There is a place 1 mile from my store that sellls everything for 3X what my little store. | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 1064 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.162.73.114  Rating: |
Peter - I know absolutely -0- about your bus...... but every bus with an air operated door that I had ever drove, always had a valve to open, to let the air out of the door assy to be able to open the door. "Buswarrior" essentially told you the same thing. And when you said: "when the air leaks out, it has a tendency to slowly open the door" that should prove that your bus's door operates the same way. There should be a valve someplace near the front door, inside a flap, inside the flap for the fuel fill? Under/inside the wheel well? On the driver's side, under a small door? In the front, inside the grillwork? They're usually placed where a driver can operate it without getting his clothes soiled. That aside.....It almost sounds like the door is jammed due to the settling of the aired-down bus... Very careful prying may dislodge it. As far as air supply... Re: "I am a complete newbie when it comes to air systems." Do yourself and humanity a big favor? Learn about it before you: A. Drive the thing. B. Make any modifications to the air system. That's a 9+ ton vehicle. Without brakes, it'll be like 100 tons when you try to drag your foot out the door to stop it.. (if you get the door to open, that is) I don't mean to be snotty, I'd just rather read your posts instead of your epitaph. | ||
| peter river (Brightstone)
Registered Member Username: Brightstone Post Number: 10 Registered: 8-2009 Posted From: 24.234.166.174  Rating: N/A |
ah, yes it does. it is in a same place where theres a switch to open the door. I did operate that switch (air valve) nothing. I am convinced that it's something mechanical that is getting stuck at the door. I guess I will be tapping into that line with a small air tank. I am learning about it, and in thousands miles of driving, I have yet to kill anyone. | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 1806 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 76.68.122.123 Rating: |
Peter, Nobody on here is being rude when we suggest you get into education mode. Your reaction to John's post scares me. Please do some heavy research and learning into the maintenance of your worn out former commercial vehicle. The rationale of your continued existence being proof of sufficient knowledge doesn't work. As all busnuts find out, the coach was sold because it couldn't make money anymore. Major deficiencies and delayed maintenance are usually found on recently acquired coaches. Our fears around the air system are summarized thus: With no air, there are no brakes. Mistakes by do-it-yourself owners, whether truck or bus, who all thought they knew what they were doing, fill the journals at the NTSB. Keep smiling, and keep reading, and keep asking! happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| Peter River (Whitebus)
Registered Member Username: Whitebus Post Number: 213 Registered: 4-2009 Posted From: 24.234.166.174 Rating: N/A |
i didn't mean to be rude, I was just answering questions. as for with "no air, no brakes", you probably know, with no air, it's FULL brakes. that's how air brakes work, as I have found out when my air started leaking while going down the road. I was lucky enough to get a bus with only 50k on it, as the transit company doing revamping of their routes, so I would hardly say the bus was "worn out". (Message edited by whitebus on February 21, 2010) | ||
| Debbie and Joe Cannarozzi (Joe_camper)
Registered Member Username: Joe_camper Post Number: 213 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 99.23.137.192 Rating: N/A |
For safty sake and for new folks if there is anyone interested in the correct way to preform a DOT pre-trip inspection I am sure those of us who don't need it will happily go thru it again now. If anyone is interested just ask. | ||
| Larry Baird (Airhog)
Registered Member Username: Airhog Post Number: 181 Registered: 1-2001 Posted From: 108.0.48.25  Rating: N/A |
Joe, if you have a pre-trip inspection list I can download I would like one. After 10 years with my bus and a repower I still skip and or forget some of the things I need to check. | ||
| Jack Conrad (Jackconrad)
Registered Member Username: Jackconrad Post Number: 1226 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 74.4.63.215  Rating: |
Peter, No air is emergency brakes only. This is the drive axle only and the brakes are set by a spring which applies 65 PSI to the drive axle brakes. Unless you have DD-3 brakes, in which case, a dedicated air tank applies 85 PSI to the drive axle brakes when the air in the rest of the system looses pressure. The spring brake can be released by using the caging bolts stored on each spring brake can. The DD-3 requires airing up the system to release the emergency mode. I highly recommend you go to www.bendix.com and learn more about air brake systems. Jack | ||
| Debbie and Joe Cannarozzi (Joe_camper)
Registered Member Username: Joe_camper Post Number: 216 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 99.23.137.192 Rating: |
If we have the saftey of our family and the motoring publuic in mind, every time we roll we will condict this first. A 360 degree inspection first. I am usually concentrating on tires and rims and lugs and lights and oil spots. When you start the bus there should be BOTH a low air light AND buzzer. not either but BOTH. The first check will be with the parking brake set. Air up the bus and when the dryer sneezes and when air press comes up to max pressure shut the bus off and note the pressure loss in pounds and minuites. Ideally there should be none. DOT says anything greater that 10 lb in 10 min. is unacceptable. IMO that boarders on safe. If you observe no or minimal leakage continue. Start up again and release the parking brake. Pump the air down with the pedal till the emergencey buttom pops. It will pop around 60 psi or so. If it does not pop something is wrong. REPAIR BEFORE PROCEDING If o/k proceed Build air back up enough to release the parking brakes and continue till the air pressure reaches max sut the bus off again this time with the parking brake released. Look and listen for air leaks. THERE SHOULD BE NONE. If you here or see air escaping at this point you have a leak in the "emergency" air. REPAIR BEFORE PROCEDING. If not you can again continue. Next With the bus still off and the brakes still released step on the brake firm and steady and hold and listen again. If you have air leaking now it is "service air" REPAIR BEFORE PROCEDING. If not YOU ARE A HAPPY CAMPER. It probably takes longer to read than preform and I must confess I myself do not preform this every time but I am a trucker by trade and a mechanic as well. If you are new or a novice you should be doing this every time you roll, we all should. Get in the habit it will not take but a few short minuites. | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 1810 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 76.68.122.123 Rating: N/A |
Right here in our "Articles of Interest" is a pre-trip by RJ Long. http://www.busnut.com/bbs/messages/12262/16203.html?1167072614 If a fleet is going to sell off vehicles, which ones do they choose? Best be wondering? Enough foolishness. happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| john degemis (Degemis)
Registered Member Username: Degemis Post Number: 93 Registered: 3-2008 Posted From: 68.113.39.64  Rating: N/A |
When I got my bus the first thing I did was get rid of the air lock on the door. It was pretty easy to replace it with a RV door lock. | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 1095 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 173.202.21.159  Rating: N/A |
Peter, Your emergency spring brakes will only work if everything is properly adjusted. They probably won't stop the bus well while traveling at high speed since they don't operate the front brakes. At low speed they will lock up the rear wheels and give you a very exciting ride, especially on slick pavement! These brakes are very nice but they may or may not save your neck when needed. Most heavy vehicles have an external connection to be used by tow trucks to unlock your spring brakes, usually in the front somewhere. Since your bus is so new you probably have one. | ||
| George M. Todd (George_todd)
Registered Member Username: George_todd Post Number: 941 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 99.39.13.50 Rating: |
Pete, IMNSHO, Gus has gotten a little carried away on his low speed comment, the springs aren't as strong as a full pedal application. One more thing should be added to the pre-trip inspection above. Provided the bus passes the above pre-trip, accelerate to 5-10 MPH on a straight course, with nobody immediately behind, and pop the emergency knob. The bus should make an "assertive" stop. If it does, push the knob back in, and you're good to go. If it doesn't, repair before proceeding, (check for a broken spring in a can, or the rear brakes are way out of adjustment, or a grease seal has failed, allowing gear lube into the drums.) G | ||
| Peter River (Whitebus)
Registered Member Username: Whitebus Post Number: 217 Registered: 4-2009 Posted From: 24.234.166.174 Rating: N/A |
^I did that once by accident.. probably at a lot lower speed. I wouldn't do it again, and yeah, the emergency brake works. well. okay Gus, I will look for one. I haven't seen one yet but I didn't really crawl in there. the bus door air line comes right off one of the two air tanks right in front. I was planning to tap into that line, I would prefer not to. | ||
| George M. Todd (George_todd)
Registered Member Username: George_todd Post Number: 943 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 99.39.13.50 Rating: N/A |
Pete, Glad to hear your brakes work well, and thanks for being the vehicle for a repeat of the pre-trip inspection. I just can't say enough about brake checks, having had two personal experiences with buses with terrible brake maintenance, (or lack thereof.) The first was my own bus when the company salesman was taking us for a test drive, and almost rear-ended stopped traffic because the bus wouldn't stop. Not only that, but they didn't fix them, and sold it to me four months later, in the same shape. Recently, I was involved in getting a bus going that had sat for several years. I was told it had been worked on about a year previous, AND DIDN'T CHECK IT OUT MYSELF. It had been driven the day before, and I did have the driver hold the pedal floored to check for leaks, and pressure test the diaphragms. I also had him pop the knob, and it did stop, but not real well. During the trip into town for fuel, the driver was advised to "stay back from traffic," and comments of "brake lights ahead." I got to drive it back, and it scared me to death. I told them I wouldn't have driven it after the test stop! Four of the six slack adjusters had travel over 4 inches. So, I'm really into brake checks, AND don't go under an aired up air ride bus, or between the tires and the wheel wells, without blocking it securely at the jacking points! G | ||
| Steve "Spanky" Aune (Spanky77707)
Registered Member Username: Spanky77707 Post Number: 13 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 75.233.151.9  Rating: N/A |
WOW guys, thanks, I've learned a lot here tonight, I appriciate all this good info. Being a newbie, brakes are something I'll put a whole new respect into... Every time I get on this site I realize more and more how little i know and how serious driving a bus down the road is!!! I've learned tonight that if you know everything and hit the road without checking your couch completley, your knowledge won't help much in an emergency. Again thanks, Spanky | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 1098 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 173.202.17.111 Rating: N/A |
George, I remember a posting in the past year or so about a fellow nut applying his spring brakes at a medium speed. He said he came to an immediate halt after a few exciting maneuvers, and this was on dry pavement. I'll take his word for it, I don't plan to try it. There are better ways to adjust spring brakes. | ||
| George M. Todd (George_todd)
Registered Member Username: George_todd Post Number: 946 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 99.39.13.50 Rating: N/A |
Gus, I really appreciate a sensible post! For the information of others, brake cans are sold by a number, which is the number of square inches of surface area of the diaphragm. When spring brakes came to be, a second number was added, which is the effective effort of the spring, expressed as diaphragm size. A very common size is 30/30, which means the spring brakes would apply the same force as a full pedal application. I'm not qualified to speak as to whether there are 24/30, or some other can sizes out there which have larger spring ratings than diaphragms. My bus is properly adjusted, (after I learned how) and Brian and I adjusted the almost runaway a month ago. Both of these are DD3s, and tag-axle buses, they stop well when the knob is pulled, but nothing like stomping on the brake pedal. A couple of years ago, someone posted an excellent video here of a Buffalo doing a stop comparison test. After timing a full pedal stop from 60 or so, he popped the knob at the same speed, and the bus finally stopped, then the guy's daughter asked, "can I turn the camera off now?" As I remember, stopping with the knob took more than twice as long? FWIW G | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Registered Member Username: Rjlong Post Number: 1679 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 67.182.48.162  Rating: N/A |
George, Gus, Peter and others - The post George is referring to above is actually a thread over on the "other" board: http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=1489.0 Happy reading! FWIW & HTH. . . | ||
| Jack Conrad (Jackconrad)
Registered Member Username: Jackconrad Post Number: 1228 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 74.4.63.215 Rating: N/A |
Taking longer to stop by "pulling the knob" sounds very reasonable since you are only using the brakes on 1 axle. Better then nothing, but I prefer using the brakes on all 3 axles. Jack | ||
| Debbie and Joe Cannarozzi (Joe_camper)
Registered Member Username: Joe_camper Post Number: 225 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 99.23.137.192  Rating: |
While folks are in the mood of poping the parking brake button before stopping completly they could also maybe beat the windshield with a sledge hammer to be sure it is solid and no rain gets thru. Pumping the pedal when stopped making the button pop confirms its opporation. I prefer this aproach over possibly ripping the spiders loose twisting the scams among other things. If the bus is new to me I am going to either make a brake adjustment and inspection my self or have a certified mechanic do it. I have never and would never pull that button while moving. Those who have verify it does not stop as well anyway. Mt advice would be do not do that. I only suggest this as a driver of better than 30 yr who has never tried it mtself. I doubt wether anyone will ever be able to convince me to either. If I have air that holds I know my linings are good and the brakes adjusted If this is a test the manufacturer suggests I have never seen it anywhere. | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 1811 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 76.69.140.90 Rating: N/A |
Slight correction to George's info. This info doesn't often appear in the popular readings. The size for the spring portion is the same as for the service portion, that is, the size of the piston area that the air will push on, and by association, the size of the spring behind the piston, in that a bigger spring hides inside a numerically bigger chamber. A spring brake is considered defeated by 60 pounds of air, so it is weaker than that amount of air pressure applied to the same size diaphragm. So for a type 30-30, the spring, in theory, is weaker than 1800 lbs worth of push, the service portion stronger than 3000 lbs of push, above 100 lbs of air. And, in the real world, that is assuming the steel in the coil spring has not grown tired, or has broken. Most alarmingly, it will still move the pushrod with the broken bits inside, fooling you to think all is well, but won't squeeze the brakes worth a darn. The springs only act on two brakes, the service brakes act on 4/6, etc, etc. Hence my fondness for the historical summary: No air, no brakes. In that thread RJ refers to, down through the posts, the link to Brian's website with the videos of both his coach and a GM New Look from the transit fleet here in Toronto being stopped by parking brake, was thoroughly infected by internet bugs some time ago. I corresponded with Brian earlier this winter, he is doing fine, but has no time to repair his website. I'll see if we can resurrect those videos. happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| Debbie and Joe Cannarozzi (Joe_camper)
Registered Member Username: Joe_camper Post Number: 226 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 99.23.137.192 Rating: N/A |
What is everyones normal service intervall on brake chambers???? Leave them in there till they develop a leak, or, do you put them in the normal maintence cycle with all the other rubber components that deteriorate like the bags and the hoses? IMO any chambers that are older than 10 yr old, leaky or not, should be replaced. In addition to the broken springs in them I have seen some so rusted the end of the spring is popping thru the housing. 40 or 45 bucks a piece... at that price I choose diong them in my driveway every 5 or 10 yr over the side of the road somewhere. I have seen vintage chassis with cans in pristeen condition only needing diaphrams for 7 bucks and I have seen others rusted loose hanging from the air line. Usually most are stuff is somewhere between and for 45 bucks it is worth it to replace them with new. This stuff is all pretty inexpensive and I like the way it looks when I bend down and look under there and some (wife) have no concept as to how long I'm needing to get it done..........lot a good nap time down there sometimes these things could take days. Win Win | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 1068 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.235.211.254 Rating: |
There are times I just can't believe the stuff that's debated here. In all the years/miles of driving buses and trucks, I have never pulled the emergency brake button to set the brakes while moving. In fact, if any owner/operator knew an employee did that, they'd be canned. Once that brake is set, you can't release it without a full brake pedal depression. In the meantime, if you've been moving prior to that, you have lost control of your brakes. Doing that on a slick surface will lock the duals (just as a hard down gear on a slick surface will). If you really want to see if the parking brake will hold, set the frikkin thing while parked, put it in gear, and pull against it gently. If anyone is so worried that the "emergency" factor of the brake won't be sufficient, they oughta' not be driving a damned bus. If you have to rely on anything "automatic", you're going to be in for a real damned rude awakening. Most all these buses are 9+ tons empty. If an individual doesn't know how to handle it when things fail, they oughta' stay the hell out of the driver's seat. Good grief. | ||
| H3-40 (Ace)
Registered Member Username: Ace Post Number: 1015 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 75.200.120.252  Rating: |
You tell em John! You get an atta boy from me! I second exactly what you said! Ace | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
Registered Member Username: Kyle4501 Post Number: 537 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 65.23.106.193  Rating: |
It comes down to KNOWING how YOUR equipment works. Some here are acting as all parking/ emergency brakes are the same, they ain't. Spring brakes operate differently than DD3s & ICC. Mine has spring brake chambers on top of the service brake chamber. The knob on the dash pops as the air pressure drops below 60 psi. I have watched as air pressure was applied to release the spring, the rod started retracting at 35 psi & wasn't fully retracted until above 55 psi. So, for poping the knob on mine, all I would get is the eqivalent braking of ~30 psi on one axle. All it takes to release them is to simply restore air pressure to the spring chamber - ie: turn 'em off. DD3s require a different application/ release proceedure. The ICC valve would apply full air pressure from a seperate air supply to the service brakes - which would result in a hard stop similar to stomping the brake pedal. As for ripping spiders loose & breaking things in the braking system - I fail to see how a single application of full air pressure will hurt anything in a properly maintained system. However, in a dual chamber actuated system, dual application of parking & service brakes can over stress & failure of some the machanical parts. It all comes down to knowing how to properly operate whatever vehicle we're driving. There is a good reason someone went to the trouble to print a manual. . . . The problem with a trouble free system is that the reliablity often breeds contempt towards proper maintainence. . . . Safe travels | ||
| George M. Todd (George_todd)
Registered Member Username: George_todd Post Number: 948 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 99.39.13.50 Rating: N/A |
To all the naysayers above. My post was not made without prior thought. Please consider all of the following: John makes a good point in suggesting applying the parking brake and then pulling against it for a test. That will definitely work. How much pull to put against it to verify it works WELL? I don't know. I do know from personal experience that normally worn linings, not adjusted for years don't stop well when you pull the knob! (A month ago in Redlands!) That buses' brakes were so far out that we tried backing up on a curb in a parking lot to try and adjust it right there! The buyer had never driven a bus before and thought "it was just heavy." Both the fronts and the drives were over 4 inches of travel, the tags were about 2 1/2. But, THE WHOLE POINT OF THIS IS: How do you know that your inversion valve, and your emergency diaphragms and hoses, and the regulator on the emergency tank ALL work properly, (if you have DD3s) and your drive axle brakes are properly adjusted??????? If you have spring type, are your drive axle brakes properly adjusted, AND are both of your springs still good, neither of them broke since you adjusted them last month, and does the relay valve work properly and quickly??? BW and Kyle have explained VERY well that an emergency application not only will not cause damage, but is nowhere near as strong as a full service pedal application. That is why, Debbie and Joe, I personally suggest that you consider editing your post, especially since you have never even tried your emergency system. Pumping the pedal will indeed cause the knob to pop at about 60 psi, IF EVERYTHING ELSE IS WORKING CORRECTLY! But, how well does the rest of the emergency/parking system work after the knob pops? PLEASE, take a deep breath, and answer that question. This is not personal in any way, it is pure safety, and that is all. You can drive your bus any way you like, and if you are better at maintaining it than most, you may find that one side of the drive axle isn't applied when you go under for an inspection, if you have springs. If you have DD3s, and they're both applied, how much force is on them? (As in is the emergency tank regulator properly set, and properly working?) Popping the knob while moving slowly not only tests the operation of the emergency system, it tests the effectiveness of the drive axle brakes seperately from the other axle(s) on the bus. "Twisting the Scams off..." please rethink that also. Why would the emergency brake twist the Scams off while moving, WHEN THAT IS ITS NORMAL OPERATION BOTH WHILE PARKED, AND WHILE MOVING WITH A MAIN AIR SYSTEM FAILURE? Two other things to clear up, both have been posted several times before. The ICC valve puts full reservoir pressure to the drive axle only, and there is no locking mechanism. NO air=NO brakes. In the case of a broken drive hose, or drive diaphragm, the ICC valve will exhaust all remaining reservoir air thru the break, with NO braking, because it cuts out the front brake circuit. ALL DD3s do not require a 100 psi pedal application to release the parking brake, only those ordered with that option. Kyle's comment on "dual chamber applications" should be considered in another situation. (Over pressure is covered in the Bendix website, which should be read.) Most DD3s take some pedal application to release a parking aspplication. When the pedal is held down, and the knob is popped, the lock rollers now have 'twice' the force on them, which is OK. But, its going to take the pedal being really depressed, with lots of reservoir pressure to get a release the next morning. G | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 1103 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 173.202.43.134 Rating: N/A |
Spring brakes on many buses, including mine, can be released by merely pushing in the knob. There is no requirement to push the foot brake first. Big trucks are the same. DD3 may be different,I know nothing about them, but all buses don't have them. ICC brakes have nothing in common with spring brakes, they are just another way of applying service brakes and require air pressure. Spring brakes are mechanical spring brakes, not air brakes. | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 1813 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 76.71.105.125 Rating: |
Long held views gleaned from the mythology of the transportation industry will not be easily undone via this new fangled typing machine. Legions of us were taught wrong, weren't taught at all, or heard it wrong. On a topic of such importance as brakes, it is fascinating the lack of correct and complete information made available to drivers, and perhaps of more importance, to trainers. What is a busnut to do? Gather and read published materials from reputable sources, new and old, and keep asking questions! The difference between experience and good fortune? happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| Debbie and Joe Cannarozzi (Joe_camper)
Registered Member Username: Joe_camper Post Number: 227 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 99.23.128.182 Rating: |
Gather and read published materials from reputable sources, new and old, and keep asking questions! Help me out here. If someone could post a link to somewhere where the manufacturer like Bendix or whoever, but a manufacturer, suggests this test of setting the parking brake while still rolling as a test on a vehicle with maxis I would love to learn more about this. Although I still wouldn't do it I am always interested in furthering my knowledge, still got a lot to learn. I looked thru the Bendix site and I missed it if it is there. | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 1069 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.162.78.214 Rating: N/A |
I don't know about anyone else, but I'm starting to worry about all the other more common vehicle safety equipment on my vehicles. I've never tested the airbags in my wife's Suzuki SX4, so I'm going to do that this afternoon. There's a decent size tree just around the corner, that I think will do fine. Does anyone know what speed I should hit it at? Silly crap, ain't it? | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
Registered Member Username: Kyle4501 Post Number: 539 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 65.23.106.193 Rating: N/A |
I found myself in an unfortunate situation with failed service brakes on a dumptruck. (The treadle valve failed. I still had air, I just couldn't send any to the service brake cans.) Since I KNEW what would happen when I popped the spring brakes, I was able to use them to stop the truck without fear of slidding sideways down the road or leaving it as a traffic hazard. John, I'd suggest you test those air bags at 140 mph - that would simulate their effectiveness in a head on collision with a similar car at 70 mph. ~160+ if you want to see how it does against a bus at 70. ;) | ||
| Don Evans (Doninwa)
Registered Member Username: Doninwa Post Number: 256 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 208.81.157.234  Rating: |
"If I have air that holds I know my linings are good and the brakes adjusted" How? What does one have to do with the other. Your chambers can be at max stoke and still 'hold' air. Never pull parking knob when rolling? So you want to wait to find out what your rig does when this happens in the middle of traffic? Find a big parking lot or deserted road and give it a go. Nothing dramatic, just something you should know. Popping the parking brakes when just barely moving and noting how they apply is just another check that everything is normal, just as you take note of how brakes apply every time you step on the treadle. Something different, better be looking. Don4107 | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 1070 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.162.78.214 Rating: N/A |
With all respect, Don.... When George posted this: "A couple of years ago, someone posted an excellent video here of a Buffalo doing a stop comparison test. After timing a full pedal stop from 60 or so, he popped the knob at the same speed, and the bus finally stopped, then the guy's daughter asked, "can I turn the camera off now?" As I remember, stopping with the knob took more than twice as long? " That's a bit different than 5 or 10 mph (although it should be noted that even coasting at 10 mph and snapping the clutch out while in first gear, will probably send you through the windshield). The point of it all, is that tests should be done safely, not on the road, and usually not while under power. The initial poster admits to not knowing a lot about the basics. It seems irresponsible to state in open forum, that it's fine to test the parking/emergency brake while the vehicle is moving.... You don't put yourself and others in harm's way, to see if you can prevent being harmful. And personally, I've never witnessed a mechanic torture-testing safety equipment to check it's operational ability. Why not test the "emergency stop" shutter at 60 mph? Or throw ourselves at the entry door at the same speed? | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
Registered Member Username: Kyle4501 Post Number: 540 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 65.23.106.193 Rating: N/A |
IF one understands the system & how it works, it should be easy to reason out what tests are prudent & which ones aren't. But that requires some intelligent thought & an ability to reason. . . . Stupid analogies don't help. Neither do irrational scare tactics used to inspire fear. | ||
| George Martinez (Foohorse)
Registered Member Username: Foohorse Post Number: 34 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 76.109.102.90  Rating: N/A |
Wow after reading all of this I really do believe that I was both very lucky and very foolish driving my first bus 4107 from Indiana to Florida in the mountains without the knowledge that I now have after reading this thread. the 4905 is going through a very thorough inspect and rebuild of the braking system and not just the pad replacement that I initially thought I needed to do. but even more important then that, this thread should be taken as proof that lack of information is Very dangerous. and maybe there should be some type of knowledge testing requirement for heavy RVs like these buses perhaps something in between a CDL and a regular drivers license. it is obvious the span between the guys with the know how here and the ones without the experience, I include myself in the latter. if there is something like this out there perhaps it should be posted here as well for us newbies that want to close the gap. the Bendix site was very useful. | ||
| Don Evans (Doninwa)
Registered Member Username: Doninwa Post Number: 257 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 208.81.157.234 Rating: N/A |
"A couple of years ago, someone posted an excellent video here of a Buffalo doing a stop comparison test. After timing a full pedal stop from 60 or so, he popped the knob at the same speed, and the bus finally stopped, then the guy's daughter asked, "can I turn the camera off now?" As I remember, stopping with the knob took more than twice as long? " That is exactly the point. The emergency application is part of the safety system to stop you under control, by design, if your air is going away. It is not a tire shredding, blue smoke event in a bus. The same may not be true with an empty trailer or unloaded truck but that is not what we are talking about here. Me popping the knob when I am a foot or so from where I am going to stop rolling is not a torture test. It puts the same pressure on the brakes whether you are rolling or stopped. It is just one way of confirming the park brake system is normal. Does not replace normal inspection and adjustment. Just a quick check. If you don't want to, great. It is one way to avoid compounding the pressure and making DD3s easy to release. What part of parking lot or deserted road was not clear? Am I placing the public at risk when I road test my 3 rigs with air brakes after a brake adjustment or for that matter after any work? Guess so. To each his own. Don 4107 | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1136 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.210.128.147 Rating: |
George...there's probably not one of us that has not "neglected" something or other at one time...or another; to "get her home"....because I "didn't have (take) time"...because it was "raining, snowing or...", or for whatever other reason (excuse)....good or bad. Point is, we all learn, day by day. New folks to this "hobby", with no experience with the "critters" can benefit heavily from the experience of those who have gone before them. One day at a time, lesson by lesson and we all learn . And many thanx to Ian for the medium; and....many, many thanx to those who participate. A Free Education! Enjoy the trip. It's a great experience!!! FWIW RCB | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 1814 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 76.68.134.27 Rating: |
This thread has drifted WAY far from the original poster's intent... So, I'm going to start a new one, including a You-Tube link to the long lost videos of parking brake stopping. Check the emotions at the door, those with strongest feelings usually get egg on face. happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1137 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.210.128.147 Rating: N/A |
Emotions?....Off course?.....intent?...egg? .... think I'll find a towel.  Good grief! RCB | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 1071 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.162.78.214 Rating: N/A |
Nawww, no egg on anyone's face. Nor does there need to be, since there are those on each side of the fence of this "debate". Some of us feel that losing total control over any system intentionally, however temporarily, is not the best way to solve a problem. Personally, I felt it's a common sense kinda' thing to avoid. A "newbie" will have to lock up the duals once on ice, snow, or a slick roadway, to understand what it feels like. It's just a notch worse than intentionally airing down your bus in motion to see if the emergency system will kick in, and finding you have to stop sooner than you expected. I've always had a tremendous amount of respect for steel objects that weigh more than I do. I'm funny like that... a wimp, perhaps. Cheers. | ||
| Debbie and Joe Cannarozzi (Joe_camper)
Registered Member Username: Joe_camper Post Number: 228 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 99.23.128.182 Rating: |
I stillwanna se this in writing. Don I know my chambers work because I replaced them when I bought the bus They will only get to 5 years old or so and I will replace them again and when I forget to release them before I go they hold me back. I will continue to wait for evidence of this test in writing from a manufacturer. I am in no way offended by this conversation. Showme convinceme I want to see this in writing | ||
| Don Evans (Doninwa)
Registered Member Username: Doninwa Post Number: 258 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 208.81.157.234 Rating: N/A |
I fear there is a lot being lost in the translation. Not knowing others level of familiarity or intent can make a post sound unintentionally insulting. If so, I am sorry. John. I don't believe anyone suggested "intentionally airing down your bus in motion to see if the emergency system will kick in". Joe. As long as you understand that brake chambers working and holding air does not mean that brakes are working normally. They can be out of adjustment, broken, damaged, worn, suddenly contaminated with grease/oil, ect ect. Just because a part is new does not mean that it is OK. Can be bad/weak off the shelf, improperly installed, wrong part, damaged by road debris and probably a hundred other things. If the emergency brakes activating is such a bad, dangerous, equipment destroying event, why is the system DESIGNED to do that if you lose air while under way? Hopefully the low air warning system will give us time to make an uneventful stop to repair the problem. If not then I want to know what is going to happen so there is not a sudden steep learning curve in the middle lane of I90 at rush hour. If you are comfortable with your brake inspection and adjustment routine, or those doing it for you, and that is all you feel you need, there is nothing wrong with that. Don 4107 | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 1108 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 75.121.202.13 Rating: N/A |
It is always kind of entertaining to see self proclaimed experts battling it out on the forum. I think it is probably more beneficial to all if we stick to suggestions or actual experiences and not get bent out of shape when someone disagrees with us. The guy who asks the questions is probably capable of deciding for himself which idea is best. In this case, however, the battle of egos had nothing to do with the original question. Not that unusual here!! | ||
| George M. Todd (George_todd)
Registered Member Username: George_todd Post Number: 953 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 99.39.13.50 Rating: N/A |
Joe, Lets just do this. Show us something in writing from a reputable source that says NOT to apply the knob at low speed. And, please pay close attention to Don and Gus's posts immediately above. G | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 1072 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.162.75.214 Rating: N/A |
Hey Don.... Re: "If the emergency brakes activating is such a bad, dangerous, equipment destroying event, why is the system DESIGNED to do that if you lose air while under way? " Those emergency sprinkler systems in office buildings can ruin every computer terminal and electrical device when they're set off. They are designed to be set off in an emergency, not to "see if they work". I had been more concerned not having an emergency shutdown in my MC9, since any bus I ever drove had one.... If the engine manages to "run away", it's a good thing to have, and it's designed to choke the air supply to shutdown the engine. Testing to see if it works when the engine's revved full tilt, will often take some seals and do some damage to the engine, turbo, etc... as it tries to suck everything into the engine. It's a million times safer testing the safety equipment the way the manufacturer tells you to test it, and they don't recommend testing the emergency brakes, parking brake, or ICC brake while underway. Sure.... if we have a few acres of property we own.. we can do whatever. But to insinuate to a "newbie" (or anyone unfamiliar with the operation of a 9 ton vehicle), that it is perfectly safe to test safety equipment on public turf, is kinda' irresponsible. George's comment about "doing 60" set me off, and it wasn't until I saw the movie, that I realized that it was 60km, not mph. And even at the 37mph it really was, is too fast for public road testing. Hit a car with your bus at 5mph, or a tree, and let me know the results. We're not just preaching to the choir here, there are thousands of readers trying to understand right from wrong. Sorry of I get a bit passionate with this crap, but I've seen too many bad things happen due to simple "I thought it'd be OK" attitudes. | ||
| Jack Conrad (Jackconrad)
Registered Member Username: Jackconrad Post Number: 1232 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 74.4.63.215 Rating: N/A |
Just remember those famous last words of a Redneck "Hey, Ya'll hold my beer and watch this" Jack | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 1073 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.162.75.214 Rating: N/A |
Haha.. Yeah Jack..... "Lemme' finish this drink, and I'll show ya'll how to do it" Or: "Naww, it ain't loaded!" HAR.. (oh well) | ||
| George M. Todd (George_todd)
Registered Member Username: George_todd Post Number: 954 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 99.39.13.50 Rating: N/A |
John, 1. What does testing fire sprinkler systems have to do with bus brakes? 2. A runaway engine is EXACTLY what you want the emergency shutdown to stop, before the engine explodes. Will it damage the proverbial blower seals? Who knows, because nobody on this board has ever said "I PERSONALLY had a runaway caused by a stuck injector, and had to flip the emergency stop switch to stop the engine. Afterward, I had blue smoke out the exhaust, and my oil consumption went way up, and I found out that my new (not 20 years old with 250,000 miles on them) blower seals were leaking. Now, lets think about something else easily substantiated by a dictionary. A perfect vacuum is 29.92 inches of mercury column, at sea level. As we rise above sea level, that number decreases. 29.92 inches of mercury equals 14.7 pounds of pressure. It has been posted here for years that many emergency shutdowns do not stop the engine, only choke off enough air that the engine can't overspeed. We also know that its a butterfly valve, with no gaskets, so it isn't a tight seal. Blowers produce 3-5 psi, and the oil seals have to hold against at least 50 psi on a new cold engine. So, if we put a vacuum on the air side of the seals equal to 12 psi increase on the oil pressure, now they are holding against 62 psi! Bottom line of this? Nowhere near a perfect vacuum generated on the intake side with the flapper tripped, and nowhere near 50 psi of oil pressure in reality, so, I don't buy into the old wives tale of damaged blower seals. Lots of turbos produce 30+ psi at full throttle, so what damage does less than 14 psi pushing in from the outside do to them? Same exact scenario for the oil seals. The 92 series didn't come with a flapper, because they made the racks spring loaded so one sticking injector didn't cause a runaway. Now, you CAN test the flapper operation stopped, with a dead engine, if it trips, you have successfully proven its operation! 3. The original post which I asked to be edited said in so many words, "I have never done it, and won't do it, and I would advise not to." So I asked why, and haven't gotten either a direct reply, or any kind of a reason not to. I also asked for official verification of a prohibition, and haven't gotten that either. As mentioned before, ad nauseum, lowering the brake reservoir pressure by fanning the pedal should indeed cause the park knob to pop up. But, just because the knob pops, doesn't mean that the inversion valve, or the emergency tank pressure regulator, or the emergency hoses, or the emergency diaphragms on DD3 equipped buses all work properly. On a tag axle equipped bus, it is an excellent test of the drive axle brakes only. The bus may stop OK with the pedal, because at least 4 other drums are working properly. If one drive axle slack adjuster loosens, or cracks, as my right one was when I bought the bus, or one seal fails and oils a drive axle drum, as pointed out in the video, it will show up as increased emergency stopping distance, while normal pedal stopping may still feel OK. What if a spring breaks on spring brakes? Normal pedal stopping IS NOT AFFECTED AT ALL, but half the emergency is GONE. All it would take is a broken spring on one side, and an oily drum on the other, to have you come out in the morning, and find your bus a block down the street on top of a car. 4. If popping the knob were dangerous, EVERY BUS OPERATOR'S MANUAL PRINTED WOULD HAVE A WARNING NOT TO DO IT! We all warn newbies not to go under aired up air ride buses, we don't tell them not to pop the knob... 5. As mentioned several times before, the knob popping is a normal operation in the event of a loss of reservoir pressure. I don't think the engineers at all of the bus companies would have designed it this way if it was dangerous, would they? 6. Although I wasn't going to get specific and name names, please look at the two posts a month or so ago, concerning the MC6 for sale. Where Matt thanks three of us, all four of us were in his new to him MC6, when I had him pull the knob at about 10 mph. It didn't stop well, but I didn't make him back it in the yard so we could get under it. I SHOULD HAVE, even though there was no incident, it was a good lesson. As posted before, the drives, and tags were over 4 inches. The fronts were the only 2 of the 6 brakes within specifications. After not being able to get it high enough on a curb in Colton, I drove it carefully back to Redlands. Back at the barn, we ran it up on blocks, and adjusted heck out of it, before going back to Colton for steak dinner. Needless to say, the second knob pop test produced much better results, and Matt was MUCH happier with the overall braking. My point? There were four others in the bus with me, and one of them posted thanks here to me and the others! I don't think he would have done that if I had put their heads against the windshield, and "twisted off two of his Scams!" (As posted, the bus is in Pennsylvania now, with the brakes intact.) You have just been scolded with respect, and I await your reply! G | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1140 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.242.29.100 Rating: N/A |
George, Olympics not exciting enuf for you....?????? Sit back, have a cup of tea...relax and....enjoy the Pacific time zone! And thanx for the...uh...confrontation?? with our all time (well, maybe 2D exception...) JTNG rouser. And, thank the Good Lord he is still with us, right???!!! Have a great night and weekend! RCB | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 815 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 71.53.153.91  Rating: N/A |
That was respectful sir and I know that it will be received in the same manner. OHH How is the cup a tea sir? LOL LOL GOOD JOB MAN!! Gomer | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 1074 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.162.75.214 Rating: |
George - You win the technological argument "hands down", and I sincerely concede defeat to your vast technological knowledge, and rote learning, will not attempt to argue with it. I (like many others unfortunately), have only acquired "hand's-on" experience. Cheers my friend, and welcome back. | ||
| George M. Todd (George_todd)
Registered Member Username: George_todd Post Number: 955 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 99.39.13.50 Rating: N/A |
John, Damn well thanks as usual!!! KUTGW, I wouldn't know what to do if I weren't stirred up once in a while. G | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 1075 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.162.75.214 Rating: N/A |
The way "we" were taught.... If you're going to park and leave the vehicle unattended (driver out of vehicle), you: 1. Point the front wheels into the curb 2. Put in the lowest gear 3. Set the parking brake 4. Turn off engine 5. A wheel chock is used if no curb is present, or if the engine is to be left running. (We rarely used/needed a wheel chock) We were made aware of the skinner valve freezing up in winter, and the effects it has on the braking system. When it freezes up, each time you apply the brakes, more air is dumped out the valve than is applied to the brakes. The vehicle may slow, but if the pedal is depressed too long, you will lose too much air, and automatically set the emergency brake. Since this frequently occurs during freezing temperatures, icy and snow covered roadways are fairly normal conditions. Locked front wheels will slide on slippery surfaces, but the vehicle will slide in a fairly straight line. Locked rear wheels on a slippery surface will cause the rear of the vehicle to swing away from a straight path, putting the vehicle into a spin. Even on sound roadways, setting the emergency brakes off, or setting the parking brake while driving, will leave the vehicle's brakes uncontrollable by the driver for the amount of time they are locked by the system. Although it may be "just a matter of seconds", there is a hazard presented that would not be there otherwise, under normal conditions. To place any heavy duty vehicle into harms way intentionally, is an irresponsible act. Testing on one's own property, is one's own choice, and is at one's own peril. To do that on a public thoroughfare, is........ Senseless. I think that's really the bottom line. (Thanks for the congeniality, George!) | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1141 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.242.61.226 Rating: N/A |
And the winner is........ What a great board, Ian... ! Thanx RCB | ||
| Patrick levenson (Zubzub)
Registered Member Username: Zubzub Post Number: 160 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 70.51.31.70 Rating: N/A |
wow I missed this tempest.....but now I will throw in my 2 cents. I have always tested handbrakes/emergency brakes on my cars and buses. This is my first air bus and I have already tested my spring brakes at low speeds. I will probably test them at gradually higher speeds `til I have a sense of them. Why? `cause I know how they work and the force they exert on the slacks (see BW above) and because I drive a + 50 year old vehicle and I need to know the safety systems will save my ass. This is the same reason I have used my handbrake to slow a 65 volvo with a single line system...I wanted to know if something went wrong what else I had. It is also why I have attempted stopping my `04 with the handbrake prior to installing spring brakes. I also throw my van around in a snowy parking lot when I can safely get the chance and have done the same with all my cars over the years. I also did a 1/4 donut with the `04 once on snow in an empty lot to have a feel for what the back end going loose would feel like. I have done all of the above and more in a safe and considerate way and the reason I do it? Safety. For myself and others. All of the above also has me secure in the knowledge that if you are going straight and you lock up the rears (and the rears are evenly adjusted/road surface is even) you will continue to go straight and if you start to slide left or right steering into it and releasing the brakes will straighten you out. Now I haven't done this with my bus yet (and may never need to) but that locking your rear is going to send you into an immediate out of control skid is unlikely. Since this is a long and heated thread I am going to clarify. I have never performed any of the above "dangerous" operations within the vicinity of any other people or vehicles, and when testing stopping distances of the service and other brakes it is always on a straight country road with no vehicles in sight front or back. Cheers, Patrick. (Message edited by zubzub on February 28, 2010) | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 1078 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.162.73.36 Rating: N/A |
Pat - Back a bunch of years, I was amused to see a CDL instructor using a toy vehicle to illustrate to the class how skids work when wheels lock up. He took the toy vehicle and secured the front wheels with a rubber band, slid it across the table, and the vehicle went it the direction it was tossed. He took the rubber band off and put it on the rear wheels. When he slid the toy vehicle across the table, it spun in circles. It's just physics and mechanics. Lock the front wheels on any vehicle and it'll slide fairly straight (do it on a turn and you'll slide straight off the road). Lock the rears on a vehicle, and it'll try to go into a spin. Yeah, if we release the brakes fast enough, we can usually steer out of the skid, once the rears are moving again.. But a new driver should keep in mind, that if the rears are locked and released on slippery ground, the engine compression will then be holding the rear axle back, and continuing that "locked" condition (unless the clutch has been depressed). A new driver should also take note, that if the brakes are locked by any other brake device (aside from the pedal), there will be a delay of the release of those brakes; the length of that delay will be dependent on what device was used to lock the brakes. In the case of using a vehicle with a parking brake that takes a full depression to release those brakes, the result of setting that parking brake on slippery ground while moving, can be catastrophic. Testing it as you do, on safe grounds, is something that most of us have done at least once. Is it recommended? No. Is it a safe thing to do? No. Does it satisfy our curiosity? Yeah. We're like kids with these things. Taking the bus and putting it into a slide in an open parking lot isn't a rare thing among bus drivers. Having it slide into a dumpster, or a lamp pole, isn't all that rare either. Like you Pat, I always lucked out, but I do know some that didn't. "Youse makes yer choice, and youse pays the bill". New owners of their first bus, should take the time to understand the magnitude of the weight of these vehicles, and the damage that weight can do at speed slower than you walk. I sat playing cards with other drivers at the Hunter Mountain ski slope, and we watched a fairly new Scenic Cruiser that had been parked on the icy lot, slide backwards off the pavement and into the ravine. All that we finally saw, was the underside of the front section sticking up in the air. Kinda' like the Titanic sinking from view. That's what weight and gravity (or centrifugal force/momentum) can do. Parked and unoccupied, or sitting at a traffic light, the sheer weight can cause the rig to slide on icy pavement. These aren't toys. | ||
| Patrick levenson (Zubzub)
Registered Member Username: Zubzub Post Number: 161 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 70.51.31.70 Rating: N/A |
I am actually terrified of the weight and momentum of my bus (and I have a small bus compared to most) it is my concern for safety that makes me check out the handling. Remember I live in Montreal so sliding on ice is part of the package, I will probably not drive my bus much in the winter but it will happen, for me personally it helps to have a sense of the momentum of the slide. I agree that these thing are huge and dangerous, and they were not designed as toys, but I am tempted to mention that some of us (most?) also have a bit of a "big kids toy" thing going on as well. | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 1116 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 173.202.45.59 Rating: N/A |
If all wheels are locked you are a spectator, you have no control. You are riding a sled with no steering. If front wheels are rolling you may have directional control unless you are on ice. If rear wheels lock up you are again a spectator, especially on a slippery surface. (Message edited by gusc on February 28, 2010) | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
Registered Member Username: Kyle4501 Post Number: 543 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 72.147.34.37 Rating: N/A |
I never once thought anyone would attempt to 'road test' the park brake system on an icy road. I kinda figured that if someone was smart enough to own a bus, they'd also be smart enough to consider the 'what if' scenerios. I cast my vote on the 'road test' but only if done with fore thought & caution. AFTER reading & understanding the manual concerning the braking system. Knowing how a machine is going to react is never a bad thing. | ||
| Patrick levenson (Zubzub)
Registered Member Username: Zubzub Post Number: 164 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 70.51.31.70 Rating: N/A |
If someone is crazily planning to apply the parking brake while driving down an icy road could they please make a video of this. I would love to see what happens but am not willing to do it myself. Oh yeah and be safe. | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 1818 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 76.68.135.22 Rating: N/A |
What does any of this have to do with a bus door that wouldn't open? John, did it ever occur to you that those who taught you might have been incorrect? Perhaps you're a victim of the fine art of crappy driver trainers to invent plausible explanations for incorrect assumptions? What if there's really nothing wrong with applying the parking brake while under way and you have been misled all these years? happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| Patrick levenson (Zubzub)
Registered Member Username: Zubzub Post Number: 165 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 70.51.31.70 Rating: N/A |
hey BW I will modify my post "If someone is crazily planning to apply the parking brake while driving down an icy road, with the door open, could they please make a video of this. I would love to see what happens but am not willing to do it myself. Oh yeah and be safe." | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 1079 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.162.73.36 Rating: N/A |
BW - Re: "What does any of this have to do with a bus door that wouldn't open? " Dunno, boss.. I'm just following the thread. It went from: "door won't open until I air up" to: "Never had to work with air stuff before. where can I find a 1/4 turn valve? " "I would love to have one of those air inflation thing like on a tire that I can just attach a compressor and inflate in an emergency. " "remember I am a complete newbie when it comes to air systems" And then ..... "someone" said: "Our fears around the air system are summarized thus: With no air, there are no brakes. " The rest is history. Re: "John, did it ever occur to you that those who taught you might have been incorrect?" Could be; even Trailways trainers make mistakes, I suppose. As a driver, we never had to know what kind of "brake can" was used, we just had to know how to use the brakes. We didn't work on the bus, we had professional mechanics that did that work. They didn't drive, and we didn't work on the bus. That was the deal. We were trained to be professional drivers and they were trained to be professional mechanics. It worked out well that way! (Can't handle luggage and old ladies with greasy hands) But to answer your question? No, I don't for a minute feel I had the wrong training. Experience managed to prove to me, that knowing right from wrong pays off in the end. "Newbies" should have a chance to know what's right, and what can possibly lead to an ugly situation. I hope my being a pain in the ass here, provided some insight to those "newbies" that haven't had benefit of -any- training. Good show by all, ehh? Cheers! | ||
| George Martinez (Foohorse)
Registered Member Username: Foohorse Post Number: 36 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 76.109.102.90 Rating: N/A |
John I have learned plenty. I have learned what a lucky fool I was driving my first bus from Indiana to Florida without having a clue what condition it was in. I allowed myself to feel secure that since I am a certified Master automotive technician (WOO HOO) that I could deal with most situations on the road. big mistake after my learning curve here I now know that I was a very lucky in deed. PS thank you RC Bishop for kind words but this bus was very neglected and dangerous. the brakes did not stop very well and I believed the past owner that this was normal for a heavy vehicle. SHAME on me I should have known better but I made my decision based on my ego and not prudence. Thank you all for educating this newbie. My next mission is to devour all the manuals I can find and Become a Master diesel, air-brake and........air door. ;) technician. | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1146 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.245.107.30 Rating: N/A |
....ain't it GRAND??? Thanx, JTNG! RCB | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 1821 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 76.71.105.47 Rating: N/A |
I'm trapped in an episode of the Flintstones... oh well. happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| George M. Todd (George_todd)
Registered Member Username: George_todd Post Number: 956 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 99.39.13.50 Rating: N/A |
It all just became clear! "...Back in the days when the drivers didn't wrench, and the mechanics didn't drive,..." a driver got a properly maintained bus to drive. These buses got over a pit at least once a week for an inspection by an experienced mechanic. Now, we want to apply the same standards to a bus that was owned by a church, a band, or a tour company? All of these are notorious for their lack of maintenance, budget, and experience. The professional driver drove a different bus each day, usually of almost the same model, and would know instantly if a bus didn't stop properly. We buy this well-used bus, register it as a motorhome, drive it home, and let it sit for a couple of years while we make it into a motorhome. Then we expect the brakes to work properly??? Now you see why I suggest testing the brakes in any way easily possible. BW, Are you sure the episode wasn't the Bunkers? G | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1148 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.245.107.30 Rating: N/A |
RCB | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Registered Member Username: Niles500 Post Number: 954 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 173.78.39.41 Rating: N/A |
Professional Drivers? Professional Mechanics? Where do Busnuts fit in? | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 1081 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.162.73.36 Rating: N/A |
HAR de HAR HAR Youse guys slay me! You take one thing out of context, and run with it; build your own argument with it.. good deal! BW asked if I thought the trainers "back then" were good, and I answered. The point (obviously missed), is that you don't have to know the first thing about fixing a bus, or exactly how each item is put together, to know how to drive one safely enough to have humans entrust their lives to your driving. It's not only knowing "what to do" in an emergency, it's knowing "what not to do" that will get you into that emergency situation to begin with. You fella's always seem to make a mountain out of a mole-ass. You wanna' test the emergency system while the bus moving? Go for it. Have fun. I would prefer you do it as Pat had; on your own property, or someplace out of harm's way. Likewise, seeing what it'll do on an icy roadway by torture-testing it in some parking lot is fun. It's very impressive to any "newbie" to see just how little that rear end has to slide out of a straight line, to make it impossible to correct. There's absolutely nothing like helplessly spinning around in an empty parking lot in a 40' bus, to get that overwhelming respect a rig that size deserves! And to learn that all these very important tests done at slow speeds will really matter at highway speeds, is absolutely incredible! Who woulda' thought? It makes me wonder why these actions aren't part of all driver training programs! Enough. This thread's dead. I should have quit with the first post. If I didn't make my point by now, there's no reason to wear out the keyboard. For redundancy: It's not only knowing "what to do" in an emergency, it's knowing "what not to do" that will get you into that emergency situation to begin with. . | ||
| George Martinez (Foohorse)
Registered Member Username: Foohorse Post Number: 39 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 76.109.102.90 Rating: N/A |
So......Peter did you fix the door? | ||
| Peter River (Whitebus)
Registered Member Username: Whitebus Post Number: 228 Registered: 4-2009 Posted From: 24.234.166.174 Rating: N/A |
yes i did |
