| Author | Message | ||
| les marston (Les_marston)
Registered Member Username: Les_marston Post Number: 16 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 68.151.248.141 Rating: N/A |
Back in Feb someone posted about breaking lug nuts loose on tires that had been on a bit to long or had been over torqued by the tire shop. One of the responses added a link to a U-Tube video on a 60 to 1 multiplier. Well I just got the one that I ordered and other than it didn't come with the 1&1/2 socket to fit the lugs on our MCI it seems to be a great tool. I am wondering if anyone else bought one and if they have used it for inside duels yet? | ||
| Tim Brandt (Timb)
Registered Member Username: Timb Post Number: 504 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 74.244.14.221  Rating: N/A |
I was planning on ordering one this week | ||
| les marston (Les_marston)
Registered Member Username: Les_marston Post Number: 17 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 68.151.248.141 Rating: N/A |
If you do order one Tim make sure you get the right socket for your lug size.. replacement 1 inch drive sockets are expensive. Also see if you can get the square drive for the inside studs. Much more useable than what I ordered (my fault) The multiplier seems to work well, comes in a nice carry case and doesn't take much space | ||
| joe padberg (Joemc7ab)
Registered Member Username: Joemc7ab Post Number: 388 Registered: 6-2004 Posted From: 68.225.145.29 Rating: N/A |
Les I bought one from Princess Auto about a year ago. Well made, and a fair price, Cant remember exactly how much, but hasnot seen any use as yet. Joe. | ||
| don goldsmith (Bottomacher)
Registered Member Username: Bottomacher Post Number: 271 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 72.152.139.65 Rating: N/A |
There is a combination socket that fits the outer nut and the square head of the inner stud; you can find them at Napa or industrial tool suppliers. Great to have instead of two separate sockets. | ||
| Jack Campbell (Blue_goose)
Registered Member Username: Blue_goose Post Number: 145 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 71.101.168.79  Rating: N/A |
I don't know which 12-1 you bought, but the one that has been around for a long time comes with the 1.5" scoket and a insert for the square inter nut. I have one and have used it for a long time. I have road service and have had to let the people that came out to change my tire use my wrench. Jack | ||
| Patrick levenson (Zubzub)
Registered Member Username: Zubzub Post Number: 180 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 70.52.29.59  Rating: N/A |
from what I can see, the 60-1 multiplier's (above) problem is it needs a specific height on the socket to work properly. The ad asks that you order the correct socket, and I'm pretty sure it's because your tool box sockets may not work. | ||
| les marston (Les_marston)
Registered Member Username: Les_marston Post Number: 18 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 68.151.248.141 Rating: N/A |
You are right about the height of the socket being critical. I just bought the standard length socket (2.5 inches) but this multiplier needs a 3 inch long socket. The shorter socket will work on front and tag wheels but it is not easy to use it on the driver wheel lugs. I must say that this 60 to 1 multiplier works well.(actually 58 to 1) If you get the square drive socket for taking off the inner wheel lugs make sure that you get the 13/16 size for MCI | ||
| les marston (Les_marston)
Registered Member Username: Les_marston Post Number: 19 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 68.151.248.141 Rating: N/A |
Joe. Are you here in Edmonton and did you call me the other day? If it was you I did return the call and left a message but was not sure if I got the right phone number off of my voice mail Les | ||
| les marston (Les_marston)
Registered Member Username: Les_marston Post Number: 20 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 68.151.248.141 Rating: N/A |
I just went back and got the deep 1 1/2 socket. It is a little longer than 3 inches but I tried it on both front and drive lugs and it works very well. It even fits in the case for the tool. I hope I never need it on the road but it is nice to be able to get myself out of a tire bind if necessary. I would still pay for road service if possible but up here it is not always available. | ||
| John & Barb Tesser (Bigrigger)
Registered Member Username: Bigrigger Post Number: 371 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 96.42.5.35  Rating: N/A |
Are you guys talking about the blue torque multiplier for sale on ebay for about $195 ? If so, which socket do you get that would work on standard bud duals like on my 4107? Or is that the socket your talking about getting from NAPA? Thanks for the info. I have always fought mine off with the "old style" two piece wrench and a piece of pipe like the guy in the video gets so frustrated with. John | ||
| les marston (Les_marston)
Registered Member Username: Les_marston Post Number: 21 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 68.151.248.141 Rating: N/A |
John Yes it is the one off of e-bay. If you go back into feb posts and find one that is titled "LUG NUTS" some one posted a utube video on this thing. I bought one but didn't get the right socket with it so had to get one locally. If you order one just make sure you get the right size socket with the unit. On the MCI it is 1 1/2 inch for outer lugs and 13/16 for inner. I tried the unit on the very long in place lugs on our old MC5A and it works great. I sound like I am selling these things but I am not. I just am amazed when a product works as well as it advertises | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 1122 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 173.202.29.217  Rating: N/A |
I don't know where he gets his "33mm & 32mm 6pt sockets included for most large semis & commercial trucks"?? The last semi I drove (well, it was a long time ago!) used the same 1.5" (38mm) and 13/16" (21mm) square sockets as my bus? He must be talking about medium duty trucks unless heavy trucks have now gone to metric nuts/bolts? I'm seriously thinking about getting one of these but don't want to end up with sockets I can't use. | ||
| joe padberg (Joemc7ab)
Registered Member Username: Joemc7ab Post Number: 390 Registered: 6-2004 Posted From: 66.38.159.33 Rating: N/A |
Les Yes that was me that left a message. No answer at the house for the last couple of weeks, got our bones warmed a bit in the Phoenix area. Also met Mel from vancouver Island in Tucson while we were there. Joe. | ||
| John & Barb Tesser (Bigrigger)
Registered Member Username: Bigrigger Post Number: 372 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 96.42.5.35 Rating: N/A |
Has anyone tried the one from Northern Tool? It is only a 3 to 1 multiplier, but it comes with a nice 3/4 drive ratchet and I would have to buy the right size socket anyway. Looks like this one would be useful in more places than just wheel lugs. About the same price. http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/NTESearch?storeId=6970&N=0&Ntk=All&Ntt=torque+multi plier&Nty=1&D=torque+multiplier&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Dx=mode+matchallpartial John | ||
| Jim Shepherd (Rv_safetyman)
Registered Member Username: Rv_safetyman Post Number: 299 Registered: 1-2004 Posted From: 67.142.130.15 Rating: N/A |
My thoughts on this kind of tool is that they are great for getting lug nuts off. Putting them back on is another story. A friend had one and we used it to check both of our buses. We were using a torque wrench that apparently was not set correctly. The multiplier was a 12:1 as I recall. For the typical 450 lb ft wheel nut torque that would translate to just 38 lb ft on the wrench. I could tell that my friend was putting way more than that much torque on the wrench. Bottom line, BE VERY CAREFUL about how much torque you apply to the wrench when installing. If you think 1" impacts will mess your lug parts up, think about 60 lb ft on the wrench (over 7K on the nuts.) Jim | ||
| les marston (Les_marston)
Registered Member Username: Les_marston Post Number: 22 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 68.151.248.141 Rating: N/A |
Good advice on re torquing the lugs with the torque multiplier. At 58 to 1 it will only take 8.6 lbs of torque to get 500 ft lbs out put. I will be using a 1 inch crow foot and a 3/8 drive torque wrench. Fortunately these are tools that I already own. but if someone was not to have some way of accurately measuring input torque it would not be hard to very much over torque the lugs torque wrenches should be checked and re-calibrated if necessary. Side of the road.... be very careful and get the lugs re torqued as soon as possible. | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
Registered Member Username: Kyle4501 Post Number: 544 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 65.23.106.193  Rating: N/A |
I have one of those combination sockets - It seems to be a tad long & doesn't engage the square head on the inner nut far enough - it wants to round it off more than remove it. So, verify it seats properly before you make it more difficult to remove an inner stud nut. Torque multipliers are great tools! If I didn't already have two, I'd get the one in the video. | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 1123 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 173.202.9.185 Rating: N/A |
I sent the ebay seller an email and asked him about 1.5" (38mm) and 13/16" (21mm) square sockets. He said he doesn't have the 1.5" but lists the square one? I'm confused here, I thought these were standard sizes for heavy trucks/buses?? What the heck has 32 and/or 33mm lug nuts? Have newer heavy trucks changed over to these sizes or, as I suspect, are these for medium trucks? Les, Be aware that a large crowfoot will add at least an inch to the arm of your 3/8" torque wrench and will result in more torque than indicated by your wrench. At 58X that is a bunch more torque. | ||
| Bob MacIsaac (Wildbob24)
Registered Member Username: Wildbob24 Post Number: 88 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 98.92.169.236  Rating: N/A |
Gus, I'm not sure about 32mm, but 33mm is the lug nut size on hub-piloted applications. Bob | ||
| Patrick levenson (Zubzub)
Registered Member Username: Zubzub Post Number: 181 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 70.52.29.59 Rating: N/A |
In the demo on youtube he is using what looks like a HIno or some other such asian truck, maybe that's why he's metric and different | ||
| John Lacey (Junkman42)
Registered Member Username: Junkman42 Post Number: 113 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 66.82.9.58  Rating: N/A |
Use a torque stick on the output of the torque multiplier and eliminate the torque wrench! Is there a problem with this method? John L | ||
| Patrick levenson (Zubzub)
Registered Member Username: Zubzub Post Number: 185 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 70.52.29.59 Rating: N/A |
won't fit | ||
| George Martinez (Foohorse)
Registered Member Username: Foohorse Post Number: 50 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 76.109.102.90  Rating: N/A |
John torque sticks could only be used with impact wrenches, air or hydraulic. the principle being that the stick will benign to flex at the torque limit which it was design for thereby cancelling the impact action of the gun. if you use your torque multiplier on it you could twist it into a pretzel. | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 1124 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 173.202.40.252 Rating: N/A |
Bob, What size is the nut on your 4905? Is it hub piloted? My 4104 is lug piloted and uses 1.5" socket, I figured most GMs were the same. Are new heavy trucks using metric lug bolts? The last semi I drove ('86 Int) used the same as my bus. | ||
| Bob MacIsaac (Wildbob24)
Registered Member Username: Wildbob24 Post Number: 89 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 74.176.77.80 Rating: N/A |
Gus, My 4905 is the same as your 4104: stud piloted with 1.5" outer lug nuts and 13/16" inner nuts on the drive axle. Most new heavy trucks and buses are using hub piloted wheels and the lug nuts are metric: 33mm. I've worked on two MCIs recently that were hub piloted: a '98 Renaissance and a '03 J4500. In fact, the local truck suppliers differentiate between the two by calling stud pilot wheels "Budd" and hub pilot wheels "Metric" Bob | ||
| John Lacey (Junkman42)
Registered Member Username: Junkman42 Post Number: 114 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 66.82.9.58 Rating: N/A |
George You are right as rain on the torque stick. I was told that a straight line drawn on the side with a marker pen would show when it is at the flex point! I do not know if this is valid or not. There are however sticks that are mechanical that have ratchets in them which will work with the torque multiplier and any cheater bar. The mechanical torque sticks are a lot more expensive than the ebay over the pond junk. Also My proto multiplier specificaly says not to use a click type or micrometer type torque wrench on the input and to add 10 percent to the torque values. Cheers, john L | ||
| les marston (Les_marston)
Registered Member Username: Les_marston Post Number: 24 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 68.151.248.141 Rating: N/A |
I took to heart the warning about the crow foot and 3/8 torque wrench to re torque the lugs with the 58 to 1 multiplier. I was shooting for 500 foot lbs and by calculating the length extra for the crow foot at 1.25 inches I got all lugs set at 485 foot lbs according to the tire shops torque wrench. I think that the 15 lbs difference may have been due to reduction gear drag in the multiplier. I may make myself a 3/8 by 1 inch adapter so as to avoid using the crow foot on the input side of the multiplier. It goes to show it can be done and to a pretty good level of accuracy. Les | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
Registered Member Username: Kyle4501 Post Number: 545 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 65.23.106.193 Rating: N/A |
John, I'm thinking that would be a mis-application of the torque stick. Not saying it wouldn't work, but accurately measuring the amount of twist may prove more difficult than first thought. But this would be very similar to how a deflection beam torque wrench works. I looked into getting a set, but after finding out more about them, they provided no benefit for my needs. Torque sticks are designed for use with an impact wrench - & that impact wrench must be calibrated to the torque stick to get accurate results. One needs to understand how the impact wrench works & what the torque stick does before the calibration process makes sense. Basically, a torque stick is a torsion spring. The more you twist it, the more torque it transmits. An impact wrench has hammers that strike anvils to produce twist on the output shaft. This twist is only for a few degrees of rotation. After the desired torque is reached, the energy of the hammers striking the anvils is absorbed in the twisting of the torque stick & not the fastener. Torque stick sets are sized to apply a given torque based on a common fixed input torque. If you have a set of torque sticks, AND you 'calibrate' your impact wrench, all you have to do to apply the correct torque is use the right stick. They are most beneficial to shops that have several different torque requirements for the fasteners they are applying when time is limited. The impact wrench is usually calibrated by: - Tighten a nut to the torque that matches the torque stick. - Use a quality regulator (that has repeatable settings) on the air supply to your impact wrench. - Using the torque stick, increase air pressure to the impact wrench until the nut just moves. - Back off the air pressure a little & tighten another nut. - Check this nut with a torque wrench to verify actual torque. - Fine tune air pressure as required to get the accuracy desired. - Record air pressure & impact wrench setting. - If you use these settings with the same impact wrench & torque stick set, you will enjoy the +/-4% accuracy. Note- Different impact wrenches may require different air pressure settings. Different torque stick manufacturers may require different impact wrench settings. If you apply too much input torque to a torque stick, you will over torque the fastener & may damage the torque stick. | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 1126 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 173.202.31.47 Rating: N/A |
Bob, Thanks, I was beginning to suspect this (I'm a bit slow!) Les, You can easily use three adapters to get from 3/8" to 1". Even though it is a bit awkward it allows you to use a socket and is probably better than a crowfoot. There may even be some adapters to jump more than one size but I've never seen any. | ||
| les marston (Les_marston)
Registered Member Username: Les_marston Post Number: 25 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 68.151.248.141 Rating: N/A |
Gus I think that 3 adapters might be a bit unwhealdly so I went out and cut a short piece of 1 inch inside diameter square tubing, caped it and welded on an old 3/8 socket. It works great and only took about 15 min to make. I am very happy with my ability to change a tire on the road if necessary and to re torque the lugs Total cost even with having to buy the deep socket to fit the lugs was still around $200. Cheap piece of mind! Les | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 1127 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 173.202.0.41 Rating: N/A |
Les, Sounds to me like you made yourself a good setup since the amount of torque at the 3/8" drive is small. Have you used it to remove any lug nuts? How much torque did it require? It probably would have been better if the torque multiplication were a bit less, 58:1 is a whole bunch and makes it easy to over-torque. Even 10:1 would be plenty. Good for nut removals though! HF sells one which is 3:1, which is not quite enough. I forgot to ask earlier, what is the length of the 1.5 x 13/16" socket you bought for the multiplier? The seller says it needs to be 3 to 3-1/16". My 1" drive 1.5" x 13/16" socket is 3.5" long and my 3/4" drive one is 4-7/8". | ||
| les marston (Les_marston)
Registered Member Username: Les_marston Post Number: 26 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 68.151.248.141 Rating: N/A |
Gus I used it to remove lugs on our old MC5A. The tires have been on it for several years and were most probably over torqued at the tire shop, (I remember the kid using a 1 inch impact then a torque wrench) The length of the 13/16 square drive is not as critical as the outer lug socket because the 13/16 studs stand out further from the wheel. I used 8.5 foot lbs of torque on the input side of the multiplier and got 485 foot lbs on the out put side. Taking the lugs off was a breeze. the crank handle that came with the tool provided all the turn I needed to break loose the lug nuts I haven't moved the coach since first torque but will check the torque on the lugs after a few miles Les | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 1129 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 173.202.46.29 Rating: N/A |
Les, Thanks. I don't think my tire shop ever heard of a torque wrench but the next time I go there I'm going to introduce them to mine! I really, really don't want to have to replace lug bolts on the rear again! I'm anxious to get my hands on this blue torque multiplier since it worked so well for you. | ||
| les marston (Les_marston)
Registered Member Username: Les_marston Post Number: 27 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 68.151.248.141 Rating: N/A |
Gus If you set it up the same way I did I am sure you wont be unhappy I would never let anyone near my wheels with a impact gun again but it sure seems to happen a lot. Even our "new" 102 D 3 needed new studs on most of the wheels because of thread stretch and I had to replace a rim due to over torquing. I wonder if Tim ordered one of these torque multipliers and if he has it yet..... Tim??? | ||
| Debbie and Joe Cannarozzi (Joe_camper)
Registered Member Username: Joe_camper Post Number: 235 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 99.23.158.6  Rating: N/A |
I have been mounting tires with a 1in impact on my pete for the entire 12 yrs I owned it. I developed a "rythm" for lack of a better term, for tighening them correctly. After the impact finishes freewheeling seating the nut and then begins to hammer at that point I count thousand2 and stop. Recently I have purchased an X12 and checked where I have been tightening to. 900+ ft pounds practicing the thousand2 count. 650 is all an aluminum rim requires. If I stop with the 1in gun right at the point it starts hammering when the nut is seated that is very close to 650. I know that it is tight but I will still do it as I have been. They are not hard to get loose and never had one come loose. I have other friends with the X12 who have a 1in gun but insist on doing the rims by hand with the X-12 instead. go figure | ||
| les marston (Les_marston)
Registered Member Username: Les_marston Post Number: 28 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 68.151.248.141 Rating: N/A |
After a lot of years of experience with most things you get "good "at it but most of the people working in tire shops don't have and never get the years of experience to know when to stop the big impact. Most bus wheel lugs are tightened to 450 to 500 foot lbs. Going substantially over that torque leads to stud thread and rim damage. Much under and it is possible for them to work loose. Far better to use the right tool to measure and properly set the torque on the lugs especially in our application where we don't wear out tires. we out live them I worked (as a kid) in a tire shop in a small town. We didn't have a torque wrench. The owner of the shop had a method of torquing wheel lugs and for the most part it worked. How ever I tried this old method and found that I didn't have the torque any where near correct or even on all the lugs. on some things safety should come first. Les |