| Author | Message | ||
| Jack Fids (Jack_fids)
Registered Member Username: Jack_fids Post Number: 16 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 166.183.115.42 Rating: N/A |
OK...So I am about to put some serious money into an inverter/charger and need all the help you can afford me! The "System" is...10-90 amp hr gel-cells and a 4000 watt Onan Dual Fuel Genny. Advice on Mfr. (& I assume Trace is tops) and model #'s plus a good retailer OR even better a fellow BusNut who wants to upgrade & bail on their low wattage unit. I'm also considering adding Solar cells to the roof, this one caught my eye....any pro's or con's from you with experience in such matters? http://www.siliconsolar.com/110w-rv-solar-kit-p-16451.html As always, thanks in advance for your time, trouble & experience! | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 1118 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 66.82.9.82  Rating: N/A |
Solar cells are the greatest invention since ???? but for touring there not very usefull, You MUST be in full sunshine to get much from them , and since most folks cruise when its warm and hide under trees on the hot days, there is little output. No we don't stay in empty flat fields or wallmarts parking lot, BUT I love a solar cell. When the coach is not being used a 75W cell with a charge controller is worth what ever you have invested in the batt set. We leave a boat in FL for 6 months , the batts are fine ,100% on return. Our coach sits , seldom plugged in summer or winter , but the batts are 100% all the time. Unless you will be installing a KW of solar to attempt to live with on a desert , battery maint is where solar Shines! FF | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 1026 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.40  Rating: N/A |
"Trace" no longer exists; it was absorbed by Xantrex years ago. Xantrex has discontinued many of the older Trace products popular for bus conversions, however the older SW2512 is still considered the gold standard for 12 volt conversions. A more modern product that is better in some respects and as good in most is made by Magnum. You will give up the "load support" ability that only the Trace SW series can provide. Make certain that whatever model you buy has a specific charge setting for gel batteries, which can not be safely charged on profiles meant for flooded or AGM batteries. Regarding solar, the price on that item is ridiculous. Panels should cost between $3 and $4 per watt right now; I would consider $5 per watt to be an upper limit. Shop around, these are commodity items. I differ with Fred on the utility of panels. Our 330 watts of panels keep our refrigeration going as well as all our parasitic loads indefinitely, meaning we can park the bus for weeks, if need be, and still have our freezer contents safe. That's with the panels flat on the roof in average conditions. If we tilted them properly and parked in optimal conditions, we'd do even better. That said, 110 watts is not enough to do much more than keep the batteries topped and take care of those parasitic loads. However, if you are not using electric refrigeration, that may be enough. And we do know people who can live indefinitely on ~400-500 watts of photovoltaics. Remember that the watt rating is peak in ideal conditions. In typical conditions you will get ~3 "hours" of that output per day in watt-hours. So a 110-watt panel might yield 330 watt-hours of power daily. To put that in perspective, we use around 3,000-3,5000 watt-hours per day of "average" living (without air conditioning), or ten times that amount. That includes cooking, cleaning, TV, internet, etc. etc., and YMMV, as they say. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| Debbie and Joe Cannarozzi (Joe_camper)
Registered Member Username: Joe_camper Post Number: 244 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 99.23.143.180  Rating: N/A |
Anyone have any experiance with the "build your own panels" advertized at the top of this thread? | ||
| Debbie and Joe Cannarozzi (Joe_camper)
Registered Member Username: Joe_camper Post Number: 245 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 99.23.143.180 Rating: N/A |
I helped a friend put these up on his camper. http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=90599 If you get a Harbor Freight catalog or are a prefered coustomer or use the mail adds and the 20% discount coupons the price is even less, significantly. He got the 3 panel kits (45 watts) for 159 bucks or, less than 4 bucks a watt! He bought 4 kits so thats 180 watts for about 700 with tax!! Fun project. I am looking forward to doing our camper some day. Sorry for the thread creap  (Message edited by Joe camper on March 23, 2010) | ||
| Jack Fids (Jack_fids)
Registered Member Username: Jack_fids Post Number: 17 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 166.128.230.55 Rating: N/A |
As luck would have it (rarely) I was able to find a gentleman in Denver with a NEW Trace SW2512 in the box and unused since a "re-Program" at the factory in 2000, the price is quite a bit less than the 2G's one might expect to pay for the item in that condition. The seller made this statement in his reply to me... "Comes w/ Extensive(I mean EXTENSIVE)manual. The unit has the remote panel + the one on the unit itself AND a 60 amp charge-controller. There is NO Disconnect Box,T240 Transformer and the special cable to tie 2 of them together for 240 volts @60 AMPS.that's the reason both units were removed,we couldn't put up enough storage capacity in batteries." Does this sound like "COMPLETE" to you experienced BusNuts? | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 1027 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.13 Rating: N/A |
Jack, The SW2512 is "complete" just by itself. No external hardware is necessary. BTW, going price on these is $1,500 factory-reman, not $2k as you suggest. The "extensive" manual is available from Xantrex as a free download in PDF, so whether a unit comes with the manual or not is pretty much irrelevant. No special cable, transformer, or disconnect box is needed unless you plan to "stack" two of these inverters for 240VAC. Apparently, the seller planned to do that and so in his mind these items are essential. I don't know what he means by "60 amp charge controller." That might be an extra item such as a solar charge controller, which might be a Xantrex model or some other brand. In that case, it is completely unrelated to the SW2512, and it's not useful for anything unless you plan to put photovoltaic panels in; you might be able to sell it for a few bucks. Or he can simply be referring to the battery charger built-in to the SW2512. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| Jack Fids (Jack_fids)
Registered Member Username: Jack_fids Post Number: 18 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 166.128.230.55 Rating: N/A |
Sean... thanks for the info...newbies rarely have the knowledge needed to keep themselves from "potholes" & I am no exception! My only remaining unasked/ unanswered question would be related to this.... I have a new 110v Frigidaire stacker washer/dryer(gas) in the bath, while I expect to be on shore power most of the time while using it, there will be times when I won't have that luxury....is the SW-2512 stout enough to handle that kind of load? The only spec. showing is that the unit draws 14.5 amps. | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 1028 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.48 Rating: N/A |
Yes but... The SW2512 will easily run that amount of load. But remember that ~15 amps at 120 VAC is 1,800 watts, which translates to 150 amps at 12 volts, plus figure another 10-15% for inefficiencies, or around 170 amps. If you plan is to do a load of laundry from the batteries, and you run the washer say 30 minutes, and the dryer for say 45 minutes, you are looking at pulling over 212 amp-hours out of your bank. That's the amount of power stored in a decent size 8D house battery. But since you should try to keep your draw to about 50% of capacity, you will need two extra 8D batteries just to do a load of laundry, on top of whatever batteries you were planning for your daily needs. I would suggest instead that you plan to run your generator whenever you need to use the washer-dryer, and plan battery charging, water heating, and other uses around that schedule. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 1029 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.48 Rating: N/A |
Joe, that's about average for 15-watt panels. remember that larger high-yield panels are harder to make, which is why they cost more per watt. The power density of these units is half that of their larger and more costly cousins, and they weigh about three times as much per watt. All of which makes them a poor choice for a conversion. FWIW. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 1835 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 76.68.135.163  Rating: N/A |
Regarding the 60 amp charge controller... When I bought my Trace 4024, it came with a matching DC disconnect/breaker and a separate Trace C40 or C60 charge controller as part of the package put together by the reseller. The package was put together as a primer in the alternate energy direction. Solar panels of your choice was the expected addition. Your seller sounds like he got something similar. There are a number of evenings worth of reading on this site: http://www.altestore.com/store/ happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| NH BIll (Nh_wanderer)
Registered Member Username: Nh_wanderer Post Number: 46 Registered: 11-2008 Posted From: 75.202.22.132  Rating: N/A |
This site may be helpful http://sunelec.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=6_23 NH Bill | ||
| Debbie and Joe Cannarozzi (Joe_camper)
Registered Member Username: Joe_camper Post Number: 246 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 99.23.143.180 Rating: N/A |
"The power density of these units is half that of their larger and more costly cousins, and they weigh about three times as much per watt. All of which makes them a poor choice for a conversion." So what would the alternative be? Get the better panels but only end up with half the watts of the less expensive ones for the same money? I don't understand. They only use about 8ft of the roof, I suppose if he were trying to outfit a 14ft Nomad trlr it would be an issue but we have buses here. These panels from Harbor freight are very very lite. I helped a retired friend put some other brand on a conversion van some time back. They were more expensive and weighed more too but I believe most of that weight was in the framing. Still nowhere near too much to mount on a roof. I am more concerned with what hail damage would do on these things, any panels for that matter, when they are mounted flat, like we do on our campers, vs on a 45 degree like most are mounted on roofs. | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 1030 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.25 Rating: N/A |
I think you've missed the math here. The panels you linked are, by your own statement, just under $4 per watt. High-quality panels with twice the density and half the weight are available for just under $5 per watt; that's a 25% premium, not 100% as you suggest. I'm not telling you or anyone else not to use these if they are your preference. I am just saying they are a poor choice if you are trying to get any serious power from solar. To use your friend's example, he had to mount 12 panels on his roof, using a ton of real estate and lots of holes/mounting hardware to get 180 watts. He spent $700, not including mounting. Right now you can buy a single 180-watt panel for $500-$730: http://www.google.com/products?q=180+watt+photovoltaic Mounts using only four holes and brackets, and requires a single pair of wires. Same amount of power, for up to $200 less, and takes up less than half the real estate. To me, that's a no-brainer. YMMV, as they say. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1181 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.242.209.58 Rating: N/A |
Sean...great information...but I suppose I would ask, how does one know (determine from the information shown) what is that "difference" in quality?....a name (brand) alone does not do it for me...too many sad stories with good brands; top of the line to boot. For instance take a look of the "list" of products the above link offers...seem to be all over the field in pricing for similar wattage. As you point out in your post $500-$730 a 50+-% spread....for the same "quality"? RCB | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 1031 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.22 Rating: |
Chuck, Sorry, did not mean to suggest that "Google Products" results constitutes real research. It was just a quick and handy way, in a single URL, to show a smattering of what is available in the marketplace. Yes, there is a spread of quality in those results. And, as I wrote earlier, expect to pay around $5 per watt for decent panels, so less than $4 is probably not top-quality. That said, I would figure most of the results in that link to be at least as good as the 15-watt units linked earlier from Harbor Freight, which is well known to be an aggregator of lower-end products. I was simply offering some evidence to refute the claim that the Harbor Freight system was a great deal, which is what I read into the liberal use of exclamation points in that post. I contend that it is merely an "average" deal, if that, and that by careful shopping, folks can find photovoltaic panels with better yield and easier installation for just about the same price or maybe a little more per watt. To answer your question "how does one know," what I personally do is to search the web for customer reviews and/or independent test results for any product I am considering. So many factors go into a purchase decision, including availability, shipping costs, output voltage, mounting options, panel warranty, and, of course, price per watt, that it is nearly impossible to recommend specific vendors or products. As you know, it is a commodity market, and price and availability on these items changes daily. Hope that clarifies my post. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 847 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 71.53.153.91  Rating: N/A |
10-4 on customer reviews Sean, That is the first thing I normally do unless it is a spur of the moment deal and ya gotta run like you stole tha thang!! Gomer | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1182 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.242.209.58 Rating: N/A |
Yup.....me too; but per chance there is a "better way", thought I'd ask. Lotsa' junk out there. I'll re affirm what both Sean and Gomer say. HF is fine for "occasional use", but for long lasting (mount it) , pricey stuff, I'll go for "experience". Having said that, .....buyer beware!...  RCB | ||
| Jack Fids (Jack_fids)
Registered Member Username: Jack_fids Post Number: 19 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 166.128.221.57 Rating: N/A |
Holy Moly..did this thread take off while my back was turned, or what? I'm a bit embarrassed because the solar link I gave in my first thread was merely an example of the size & wattage, and then only as a way to keep the "house set" topped off in the boonies....I'm thinking insurance against stupidity/pilot error/forgetfulness. NOW...to answer Sean clearly... Yes but... The SW2512 will easily run that amount of load. But remember that ~15 amps at 120 VAC is 1,800 watts, which translates to 150 amps at 12 volts, plus figure another 10-15% for inefficiencies, or around 170 amps. If you plan is to do a load of laundry from the batteries, and you run the washer say 30 minutes, and the dryer for say 45 minutes, you are looking at pulling over 212 amp-hours out of your bank. * OK.. my battery box has 900 amps available, so 450 is my 50% draw down limit...so if I do a single load of clothes while its raining I'll consume 55% of my available amps . IF I can limit my daily usage to around 30 amps that would allow for a week w/o running the genny in a worst case scenario. Question is, could I get efficient enough to keep the daily rate at 30 amps? That's the amount of power stored in a decent size 8D house battery. But since you should try to keep your draw to about 50% of capacity, you will need two extra 8D batteries just to do a load of laundry, on top of whatever batteries you were planning for your daily needs. *My battery rack has 10 90 amp-hr gelcells but I left a little extra space in it so that should the occasion arise, the rack will easily hold 5 - 8-D's, either way your answer gives me the amount of security I was hoping to build in to the system and I am very appreciative for your clear answer & the experience & effort it took to be able to do so...usually it takes a big hammer or a lot of voltage for me to learn something I would suggest instead that you plan to run your generator whenever you need to use the washer-dryer, and plan battery charging, water heating, and other uses around that schedule. * Great point to remind me of ...and generally what I had in mind to begin with. But being "self contained" means that, & I am hoping that thru experience & a little bit of propane/gasoline I can stay fairly remote for a couple of weeks or more IF that wind suddenly blows up my skirt. .....It is so nice to be able to come here, present a problem and get 9-99 answers or perspectives & each comes from someone's experience...some of them I even understand! (Thanks again Sean & Ian) | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 1119 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 66.82.9.59 Rating: N/A |
On a sailboat we have , the only space is the top of the cabin hatch , about 16x20. Any brand advice on a tiny unit to keep the batts up on a mooring? FF | ||
| Debbie and Joe Cannarozzi (Joe_camper)
Registered Member Username: Joe_camper Post Number: 248 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 99.23.151.75 Rating: N/A |
Jacks first link shows 110 watts for just under 1000 dollars What kind of quality are those If there is a source for solar panels out there that will give me 180 watts for close to the same money as Harbor Freight panels but half the size and less weight one would be silly for not using them I am very interested in learning about that manufacturer and product. (Message edited by Joe camper on March 25, 2010) | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 1032 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 72.171.0.145 Rating: N/A |
Fred: Those dimensions are challenging. There are a number of commercial products out there that are intended for running small remote installations such as monitoring stations, lights, etc. and I have seen them approximately those dimensions. I think if you hunt around you will find one that will work. I did briefly look to see if there was an adhesive-back unit that size, which would make mounting to the hatch a snap, but found none that small. I think the Kyocera KS-20 is probably the largest panel you will fit in that space, about 20.5x14, with 20 watts nominal output. They are pricey, but shop around because it's all over the map. Joe: If you follow the link I posted earlier, you will see a dozen or so panels that meet those criteria. You would need to research each one to find out about quality, availability, etc. -- there is really no way around doing the follow-up. As I wrote earlier, the fast-changing commodity nature of the solar business makes it impossible for me or anyone else to say "Buy the Brand-X model 123 panel from ABC Electric for $100, they are the best." If that's true today, it won't be true next week, and it wasn't true last week -- it would be similar to saying "buy all your fuel from the 76 station on Fourth and Main, they are the best." Another way of saying this is that the time to research photovoltaic panels is the day (or day before) you are ready to buy them. If you do all your research today, but go to buy them next month, you'll be working with stale information. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 1121 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 66.82.162.16 Rating: N/A |
Kyocera KS-20 So far about $180 on the internet , but shipping is a pain so I will check with some locals. Thanks fir the tip. FF | ||
| thomas flocks (Taflocks)
Registered Member Username: Taflocks Post Number: 191 Registered: 9-2009 Posted From: 74.76.246.165 Rating: N/A |
another??? i have an 1800 watt inverter in the bays but i wanted to use a 450 watt cobra just for some rope lights upstairs. problem is if i plug in 2 strings it starts beeping low voltage,i have it hard wired to the power block and the lights only draw 5.5 watts per foot i have 36 feet of rope which is 198 watts | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1183 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.244.229.105 Rating: N/A |
try LED ropes...very very low wattage. FWIW RCB | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 1034 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.32 Rating: N/A |
Thomas, Those cheap truck-stop units are notorious for being over-rated and inefficient. 200 watts output would translate to 20 amps of DC input for one of those; depending on how far the unit is from the batteries and what gauge wire you used, the 20 amps might induce enough voltage drop to cause the unit to beep. For example, 20' of #12 would give you a drop of 1.3 volts, which is probably enough to cause a low voltage alarm. Tell us how much wire and what type and gauge, and I can figure the voltage drop for you. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| thomas flocks (Taflocks)
Registered Member Username: Taflocks Post Number: 193 Registered: 9-2009 Posted From: 74.76.246.165 Rating: N/A |
how much are led ropes? | ||
| Jack Fids (Jack_fids)
Registered Member Username: Jack_fids Post Number: 20 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 32.176.217.108 Rating: N/A |
LED ropes...18 ft long.....2 for $10.00 the day AFTER Christmas, in white, red, green & blue. Walgreens & Wally World fwiw | ||
| Bruce Henderson (Oonrahnjay)
Registered Member Username: Oonrahnjay Post Number: 531 Registered: 8-2004 Posted From: 149.168.204.4  Rating: N/A |
Sean wrote "Those cheap truck-stop units are notorious for being over-rated and inefficient." And one of their biggest scams is rating their "peak" rating as their "rating". If it's called a 400 watt unit, it's probably going to have a rough time actually living at 200 watts and you can totally forget going much over that for any period of time. Add to that the voltage drop issues that Sean noted and you can see that they're not a lot of use for most situations. | ||
| thomas flocks (Taflocks)
Registered Member Username: Taflocks Post Number: 194 Registered: 9-2009 Posted From: 74.76.246.165 Rating: N/A |
i have maybe a #12 stranded copper for about15-20 ft back to the fuse panel then a #6 to the batts. i was seeing the led rope lights for $40 or more on the net. i ended up putting some puck lights in and will just run them on the main inverter. for some reason the inverter stays on[hums] all the time unless i shut her off on the panel. the upstairs panel wont shut her off?. | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1184 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.244.229.105 Rating: N/A |
Check LED ropes on the internet...where I purchased mine...years ago. Might take a bit of searching for what you EXACTLY want, but well worth it. FWIW RCB | ||
| Jack Fids (Jack_fids)
Registered Member Username: Jack_fids Post Number: 21 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 166.128.17.93 Rating: N/A |
I happened across this in a search for interior Puck lights, LED Rope lighting....the price sems right anyway! | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 1035 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.32 Rating: N/A |
As I wrote earlier, 200 watts on #12 that distance will give you too much voltage drop. You need to use at least #10.
As they say, "do it your way," but this makes little sense to me. Puck lights are widely available in 12 and 24 volts -- why use 120vac models and take the inverter penalty?
You need to explain this further before we can answer. Are you talking about a remote control panel for the inverter, or an electrical panel (load center)? And if the latter, how is it wired? -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| thomas flocks (Taflocks)
Registered Member Username: Taflocks Post Number: 195 Registered: 9-2009 Posted From: 74.76.246.165 Rating: N/A |
i have a remote control up top the inverter has a switch on the front. i bought the pucks as i got 6 for $22 with a dimmer.i can always convert them to 12 v i will mostly only use them when plugged in or on the road at night so the wife can read so there should not be a lot of inverter drain. but all i installed were 4 so i should be able to use the small inverter for them. | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 1038 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 72.171.0.140 Rating: N/A |
Most remotes should be able to turn the inverter and/or charger portion "off," but the unit will still be drawing power for the controls (otherwise, you could not use the remote to turn the inverter or charger back on). Most inverters draw control power from the batteries, however, so there should not be any humming when in standby mode. What brand and model inverter is it? -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| thomas flocks (Taflocks)
Registered Member Username: Taflocks Post Number: 198 Registered: 9-2009 Posted From: 74.76.246.165 Rating: N/A |
can you say dumb***t? it really helps if you have the remote connected... somehow the connector became unattached..... i put it back on and it now works fine..... | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1185 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.244.237.192 Rating: N/A |
Jack....where have I gone wrong?...didn't see a rope light!. ??? RCB | ||
| Jack Fids (Jack_fids)
Registered Member Username: Jack_fids Post Number: 23 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 166.183.63.213 Rating: N/A |
Sorry RCB, my mistake, wrong linky! they this one... http://www.amazon.com/Good-Earth-Lighting-G9524CLR-I-24-Foot/dp/B000BO9TEI/ref=sr_1_6?ie=U TF8&m=A1SV1BYDTUK2Z5&s=hi&qid=1269669147&sr=1-6 | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1195 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.242.160.9 Rating: N/A |
Yep...that's more like it! I have several...in the coach. Thanx, RCB |
