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Message |
ChineseElite (24.68.144.216)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 01, 2003 - 11:06 am: | |
Hi! New to the BusNut BBS myself, however I learned a lot already from reading previous topics.
We have a 1985 Volvo 740GLE, with a 2.4 litre turbo diesel. It is equipped with glow plugs, and a block heater, however when it dips down to -20° and colder, even when it is plugged in we have trouble getting it to start. Quite often, we have to wait until it thaws out (-10° or so) before it will start again...
The starter is new, however the engine is just shy of 401000km (about 250000 miles) on a factory build... Compression is normal in 5/6 cylinders, and medium in the 6th. Glow plugs are in working condition, as is the block heater.
Now, the battery comes to mind. It is a relativly old one (7 year), with a sticker amperage of 700amp. Now, we are thinking of getting a new battery, and a couple questions come to mind.
- Does/Would amperage matter, especially for cold starting a diesel, if the choices were 750 and 1000amp?
- Would it make a difference in starting ability (ie turn the starter just that much faster, and help it catch), or do diesels just don't like running in the cold?
Any helpful answers would be greatly appreciated... |
John Rigby (24.174.234.148)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 01, 2003 - 11:26 am: | |
I could not start my kubota gen set,used,but with only 148 hours.It would turn over but slow.I put new cables with solid lugs and a new battery and although not immediately,it started,and continues to start well.
John |
Paul Singleton (205.210.53.253)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 01, 2003 - 3:45 pm: | |
Wow! Seven years from a car battery. The life expectancy of the average car battery is five years. I would but in a new battery because in my opinion your battery is on borrowed time. Due to the cold weather in your area you should install a higher cranking amp battery. Cold weather greatly reduces battery efficiency and a battery warmer may help also. |
Henry R. Bergman, Jr. (Henryofcj) (65.194.145.55)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 01, 2003 - 5:01 pm: | |
Yeah, we can help you out here and it will not cost a great deal of money either. May be one thing, or a combination of several things.
Buy a new battery and get the biggest, highest cold cranking amps model that will physically fit under the hood. Bigger is better in the cold.
Replace your battery/grounding cables with new ones that are of larger diameter. At very low temperatures, this will help greatly.
Check ALL of your cranking system cables for clean, new, tight terminals/connections. If needed, go to new battery post bolts.
Have your glow plugs checked for proper function. As they age, they will still pull the same amperage....
....but will not get as hot as new ones. This may be your main problem. I have to change glow plugs on my diesel VW Rabbit....
....about every 2 years to help a very worn mill start in the winter. A set of 4 cost me less than $30.00. Be sure NEVER NEVER to use starting fluid....
....with a glow plug engine if the glow plugs work. Can physically blow up the engine as the either can detonate inside the mill.
Make sure your block heater is block heating. Sometimes they appear to be working, but do not properly heat the engine up.
Finally, make sures you have fresh winterized diesel fuel which is different from summer fuel. May have to go to #1 diesel in very cold weather.
With my Rabbit, I can add up to 10% gasoline to #2 diesel fuel to help my VW start in cold weather. Be careful here---your mill may be different.
That is about it. Just takes a small problem with a minor engine system to make it very hard if not impossible to start a diesel in extreme cold. Good luck. Henry of CJ. |
Henry R. Bergman, Jr. (Henryofcj) (65.194.145.50)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 01, 2003 - 5:24 pm: | |
Was just thinking more about your Volvo turbo diesel not liking to start in very cold weather. Does your car have a pre-heat heating element somewhere in the air box/cleaner/inlet system?
Would be like a heating element, only to preheat the air before it enters the engine. If you have one, check it out also. May not be working properly or not at all.
You may have to pull the glow plugs to check them correctly. May be actually cheaper just to install a new set. I can change out my VW Rabbit diesel glow plugs now in less than 45 minutes, taking my time.
Anyway, good luck. Coldest my VW Rabbit Diesel has been was at Lake Tahoe CA in January. Five below zero F. Cranked about 5-6 seconds, then lit off----without starting aids. You can do it. Good luck. Henry of CJ. |
ChineseElite (24.68.144.216)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 01, 2003 - 7:34 pm: | |
Thnks for all the advise: Looks like we will be getting a new battery soon.
I will also look into getting a new set of glow plugs for the car...
Henry: No air pre heat on this one, tho a webasto would be nice ;-) |
Tom Caffrey (Pvcces) (64.114.233.121)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 01, 2003 - 7:37 pm: | |
Hi ChineseElite,
You can do a few things that will help you. Put a voltmeter's prods directly on your battery posts. If the voltage when cranking falls below 10 volts, more battery will help.
Make sure you're not running summer oil while you're trying to start that cold of an engine. It gets really stiff when it's that cold.
Cranking speed is critical on many diesel engines. One reason is more speed means that peak temperatures in the combustion chambers will be higher. Another reason is that injectors lose their efficiency at slow speeds.
You can look at your tailpipe to see if you're injecting fuel. No smoke, no fuel. You should get a substantial cloud of white smoke from injected but unburned fuel.
Your engine is a compression ignition engine. The heat in the chambers must rise to the point where the fuel starts burning, or your engine will not start.
You can unhook the air cleaner assembly and heat the air near the intake manifold and then crank the engine. The hot air will raise the chamber temperatures and AFAIK is not hard on the engine. A flame aimed directly into the manifold will not work well because the air will be oxygen depleted.
We use weed burners to get heavy equipment going but you will probably find that an ordinary heat gun will work well on your car.
For what it's worth.
Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576
Suncatcher |
ChineseElite (24.68.144.216)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 01, 2003 - 7:41 pm: | |
Just a thought..
If we were to disable the glow plugs via a fuse (unplugging it), would ether then be a possibility, or is it totally out of the question?
Thanks for the advise Tom, right now we are running 10W-30, however it is a daily driver and we can get as many as 700km a day. |
Henry R. Bergman, Jr. (Henryofcj) (65.194.145.46)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 01, 2003 - 10:30 pm: | |
I do not know about using either on a glow plug engine--even if the glow plugs were disconnected. We need some more input from others who know more about this.
Could your starter be getting old? About the only thing we have left out. Sometimes starters and batteries are related, sometimes not. A weak battery....
....will kill an older starter by cranking it to death. A new battery will let a worn starter live longer. I have to keep good glow plugs/batteries in my mill because the rest of the diesel is worn out, including the starter.
I disconnected the glow plug circuit after it shorted out and went with a 50 amp momentary-on toggle switch on the dash wired to the glow plug circuit. When very cold, I simply hold on the switch....
....heating the glow plugs manually until the mill starts very quickly. Even with fast glow plugs, this may take 60 seconds in very cold weather. You learn to judge the time needed.
However--it saves the starter from having to crank and crank and crank to start the mill. Just a thought--but then I drive a war orphan worth $400.00 at most. Good luck. Henry of CJ.
Sorry for hogging this post. |
Stephen Fessenden (Sffess) (65.130.11.192)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 01, 2003 - 11:10 pm: | |
You can also thin #2 diesel with up to 50% Kerosene for winter starting. That is from the Mercedes UNIMOG 416 operating manual. I think I would rather use Kerosene than gasoline. You can also use up to 50% Kerosene. Limit is 30% with gasoline. They caution not to use premium fuels, which I think means #1 diesel. At -20 degrees F (-28 degrees C) you are below the point where they recommend winter diesel fuel with 50% kerosene. Might help to heat the fuel tank to get it going in really cold weather. Our but tanks are inside the structure, but that volvo fuel tank hangs down in the cold and has only the return fuel heat to keep the parafin from precipitating. My son has had to change fuel filters in a 400 mile trip, already started and running, because of parafin precipitation in summer fuel at 32 degrees F, 0 degrees C. That was in a Mercedes 300SD with the tank in the trunk where it doen't get quite as cold as the outside air. (And there may be bits of Bunker C in our fuel. They haul it in the same trucks. I had that problem once. Prefilter was tarry black.
The Mercedes engines this information is for do not use glow plugs, but use startine fluid in a hand primer at low temperatures. I wouldn't use it in a VW/ Volvo diesel engine.
Here is the table for the Mercedes OM314 and OM352 truck engines, the information might help, but won't be directly applicable:
0 to -10 deg C (32 to 14 deg F) 70% summer diesel/30% gasoline or kerosene or 100% winter diesel.
-10 to -15 deg C (14 to 5 deg F) 50% summer diesel/50% Kerosene (not gasoline) or 100% winter diesel.
-15 to -20 deg C (5 to -4 deg F) 70% winter diesel/30% gasoline or Kerosene.
-20 to -22 deg C (-4 to -8 deg F) 50% winter diesel/50% kerosene (not gasoline).
(Don't assume the same fuels are OK for DD 2 cycles. We are talking a car and a light truck here.)
Your engine is already near the end of its life. That engine is OK and good for about 250,000 miles max. I've owned one and got over wanting one. But it was a great car. Do you need an AC compressor? I have one with one years use that you can have, also an injection pump. My son was forced off the road into bumper height water on a flooded street in Florida. Your air intake is just above your bumper. If I had another I would raise that. |
Peter Aduskevich (Slowslowpete) (63.215.229.144)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 12:25 am: | |
I think your starting well considering what you have . If you can extend the glow time and add a pan heater and keep the block heater and go with all the other suggestions above there is not much else to do except up the voltage to the starter . Or keep it in a garage. Do not do what one guy did to start his bulldozer on very cold morning. He started a fire under the engine to warm it up . I don't thik I have to tell what happened next. Good luck. |
Mike Stabler (Docdezl) (64.255.109.153)
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 1:25 am: | |
There are only two things wrong with a diesel...January & February. Are you depresing the fuel pedal down to floor,this sets the advance and full fuel. Glow plugs need to get really hot before you crank engine and spray them with fuel. Minimum 5 to 8 sec. BEFORE crancking. 10 to 12 if it is really cold! Much longer than that and plugs could be toast. If the glow plugs are on a timer relay with a thermal sensor they get less accurate with age. These can be by - passed with a starter button that I control. And I am VERY sesitive to the cold! Bottom line is you are making a FIRE. And keeping it going until chamber temps can support ignition.
Second make sure the engine block is WARM not too far from the heater. I have had engines equiped with 2 (two) block heaters and an oil pan heater. Exstention cord to car shouldn't be longer than 25 ft.
Even with all this it can still take 1 or 2 min.@ -0 F to Several @ -20 F . Cranking for 15 sec and resting for 15 seconds,lets the fuel lay in there and get warm. Starters burn out faster with cold batteries and their low voltage.
A good fuel conditioner like Power Service that surounds the "wax" molicules and keeps them from joining together,"jelling".
You can use a couple shots WD 40 sprayed in the air intake (remove air filter) while engine is cranking. If you get a short "run" then you have a fuel problem. NEVER use ether on an engine with pre-combustion chambers.
Smoke,rattle &,stink.....docdezl |
Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy) (66.190.119.82)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 7:59 am: | |
One thing that I have not seen mentioned is a heating pad for the battery. With one wrapped around the battery and also some insulation can raise the battery temperature and make a significant difference in the performance of it. As the temperature goes down, the battery performance and capability significantly decreases and a warm battery can often make the difference in starting or not starting.
Richard |
ChineseElite (24.68.144.216)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 8:12 am: | |
Wow, a lot of suggestions, thanks!
The starter is (hopefully isnt) an issue, one month old.
Battery is going to be replaced with a 1000 amp.
Henry: Great idea. I will look into rewiring the glow plug system in such a way as I have a one way rocker switch that can't be left in the 'on' position....
Stephen: We also had a 1980 300SD, with 430000km... Great car, will be the next car we get (hopefully 86 or so)... How much did you want for the AC compressor and the injector pump? Our AC compressor has a small leak, tiny really, but have to recharge AC every summer... I am not really concerned about the engine dying out anytime soon, great condition considering its age...
Thanks for the idea's, if anyone has any other idea's let me know... |
Stephen Fessenden (Sffess) (65.130.10.124)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 1:54 pm: | |
A/C compressor and injection pump are free. You Pay shipping. My zip is 33801 if you want to check Fedex ground rates. Figure 40 lbs for both as a guess. Email me at sffess@quixnet.netREMOVE. You know how to find my email in there.
You may want an 85 or earlier Mercedes turbo diesel. Better performance after that but they had an aluminum head. Cast iron is much more forgiving. Drawback of the 5 cylinder engine is that you have to adjust the vavles every 15,000 miles. Say, does your Volvo have solid lifters. If so, how long since you have adjusted the valves. Improper valbe adjustment also makes for hard starts.
Mileage on 5 cylinder engine SD averages 22mpg. On an 87 SDL with a six cylinder engine, aluminum head, hydraulic lifters, 26 mpg and a very little bit more zip. 5 cylinder cast iron head engines around here are often going 350,000 to 400,000 miles. It is a much better engine than the Volvo diesel, but both are better than what detroit had to offer for cars.
STARTING IN 1982, MERCEDES 300SDs HAD A KEEP WARM CIRCUIT ON THE GLOW PLUG RELAY THAT WOULD KEEP THE PRECHAMBERS PREHEATED AND READY FOR 2 MINUTES AFTER THE GLOW PLUG LIGHT WENT OUT. That is especially important in the aluminum head models after 1985. They need a little extra time to warm the aluminum heatsink around them for a smooth start. |
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