| Author | Message | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 1122 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 66.82.162.16  Rating: N/A |
Found this on a truck site , and although our DD injectors are probably lower in loads than the modern electronic injection systems its interesting reading FF As copied and pasted, Flowing are the preliminary results of a research study on diesel fuel Lubricity Additives. There is likely to be further commentary and explanation added at a future time. PURPOSE: The purpose of this research was to determine the ability of multiple diesel fuel additives to replace the vital lubricity component in ULSD (Ultra Low Sulfer Diesel) fuel. HISTORY: ULSD fuel is the fuel currently mandated for use in all on road diesel engines. This fuel burns cleaner and is less polluting than it’s predecessor, called Low Sulfer Diesel Fuel. Low sulfer fuel contained less than 500 ppm of sulfer. ULSD contains 15 ppm or less. As diesel fuel is further refined to remove the polluting sulfer, it is inadvertently stripped of its lubricating properties. This vital lubrication is a necessary component of the diesel fuel as it prevents wear in the fuel delivery system. Specifically, it lubricates pumps, high pressure pumps and injectors. Traditional Low sulfer diesel fuel typically contained enough lubricating ability to suffice the needs of these vital components. ULSD fuel, on the other hand, is considered to be very “dry” and incapable of lubricating vital fuel delivery components. As a result, these components are at risk of premature and even catastrophic failure when ULSD fuel is introduced to the system. As a result, all oil companies producing ULSD fuel must replace the lost lubricity with additives. All ULSD fuel purchased at retail fuel stations SHOULD be adequately treated with additives to replace this lost lubricity. The potential result of using inadequately treated fuel, as indicated above, can be catastrophic. There have been many documented cases of randomly tested samples of diesel fuel. These tests prove that often times the fuel we purchase is not adequately treated and may therefore contribute to accelerated wear of our fuel delivery systems. For this reason it may be prudent to use an after market diesel fuel additive to ENSURE adequate lubrication of the fuel delivery system. Additionally, many additives can offer added benefits such as cetane improver, and water separators or emulsifiers. CONTENT: In this study we will test multiple diesel fuel additives designed to replace lost lubricity. The primary component of this study is a side-by-side laboratory analysis of each additive’s ability to replace this vital lubricity. Additionally, claims of improving cetane, water separation or emulsification, bio-diesel compatibility and alcohol content will be noted. These notes were derived from information that was readily available to consumers (via the label and internet information) and none of this information has been evaluated for validity and/or performance. Cetane information has only been noted if the word “cetane” was used in the advertising information. The words “improves power” has not been translated to mean “improves cetane” in this evaluation. Information on alcohol content is provided by indicating “contains no alcohol”. Omission of the words “contains no alcohol” does not imply that it does contain alcohol. This information was simply missing in the information available to a consumer. However, the possibility of a form of alcohol in these products is possible. Additionally, information on dosages and cost per tankful are included for comparison purposes. How Diesel Fuel Is Evaluated For Lubricating Ability: Diesel fuel and other fluids are tested for lubricating ability using a device called a “High Frequency Reciprocating Rig” or HFRR. The HFRR is currently the Internationally accepted, standardized method to evaluate fluids for lubricating ability. It uses a ball bearing that reciprocates or moves back and forth on a metal surface at a very high frequency for a duration of 90 minutes. The machine does this while the ball bearing and metal surface are immersed in the test fluid (in this case, treated diesel fuel). At the end of the test the ball bearing is examined under a microscope and the “wear scar” on the ball bearing is measured in microns. The larger the wear scar, the poorer the lubricating ability of the fluid. Southwest Research runs every sample twice and averages the size of the wear scar. The U.S. standard for diesel fuel says a commercially available diesel fuel should produce a wear scar of no greater than 520 microns. The Engine Manufacturers Association had requested a standard of a wear scar no greater than 460 microns, typical of the pre-ULSD fuels. Most experts agree that a 520 micron standard is adequate, but also that the lower the wear scar the better. METHOD: An independent research firm in Texas was hired to do the laboratory work. The cost of the research was paid for voluntarily by the participating additive manufacturers. Declining to participate and pay for the research were the following companies: Amsoil and Power Service. Because these are popular products it was determined that they needed to be included in the study. These products were tested using funds collected by diesel enthusiasts at “dieselplace.com”. Additionally, unconventional additives such as 2-cycle oil and used motor oil were tested for their abilities to aid in diesel fuel lubricity. These were also paid for by members of “dieselplace.com”. The study was conducted in the following manner: -The Research firm obtained a quantity of “untreated” ULSD fuel from a supplier. This fuel was basic ULSD fuel intended for use in diesel engines. However, this sample was acquired PRIOR to any attempt to additize the fuel for the purpose of replacing lost lubricity. In other words, it was a “worst case scenario, very dry diesel fuel” that would likely cause damage to any fuel delivery system. This fuel was tested using the HFRR at the Southwest Research Laboratory. This fuel was determined to have a very high HFRR score of 636 microns, typical of an untreated ULSD fuel. It was determined that this batch of fuel would be utilized as the baseline fuel for testing all of the additives. The baseline fuel HFRR score of 636 would be used as the control sample. All additives tested would be evaluated on their ability to replace lost lubricity to the fuel by comparing their scores to the control sample. Any score under 636 shows improvement to the fuels ability to lubricate the fuel delivery system of a diesel engine. BLIND STUDY: In order to ensure a completely unbiased approach to the study, the following steps were taken: Each additive tested was obtained independently via internet or over the counter purchases. The only exceptions were Opti-Lube XPD and the bio-diesel sample. The reason for this is because Opti-Lube XPD additive was considered “experimental” at the time of test enrollment and was not yet on the market. It was sent directly from Opti-Lube company. The bio-diesel sample was sponsored by Renewable Energy Group. One of their suppliers, E.H. Wolf and Sons in Slinger, Wisconsin supplied us with a sample of 100% soybean based bio-diesel. This sample was used to blend with the baseline fuel to create a 2% bio-diesel for testing. Each additive was bottled separately in identical glass containers. The bottles were labeled only with a number. This number corresponded to the additive contained in the bottle. The order of numbering was done randomly by drawing names out of a hat. Only Spicer Research held the key to the additives in each bottle. The additive samples were then sent in a box to An independent research firm. The only information given them was the ratio of fuel to be added to each additive sample. For example, bottle “A” needs to be mixed at a ratio of “480-1”. The ratio used for each additive was the “prescribed dosage” found on the bottle label for that product. Used motor oil and 2-cycle oil were tested at a rationally chosen ratio of 200:1. The Research Laboratory mixed the proper ratio of each “bottled fluid” into a separate container containing the baseline fuel. The data, therefore, is meaningful because every additive is tested in the same way using the same fuel. A side-by-side comparison of the effectiveness of each additive is now obtainable. THE RESULTS: These results are listed in the order of performance in the HFRR test. The baseline fuel used in every test started at an HFRR score of 636. The score shown is the tested HFRR score of the baseline fuel/additive blend. Also included is the wear scar improvement provided by the additive as well as other claimed benefits of the additive. Each additive is also categorized as a Multi-purpose additive, Multi-purpose + anti-gel, Lubricity only, non-conventional, or as an additive capable of treating both gasoline and diesel fuel. As a convenience to the reader there is also information on price per treated tank of diesel fuel (using a 26 gallon tank), and dosage per 26 gallon tank provided as “ounces of additive per 26 gallon tank”. In Order Of Performance: 1) 2% REG SoyPower biodiesel HFRR 221, 415 micron improvement. 50:1 ratio of baseline fuel to 100% biodiesel 66.56 oz. of 100% biodiesel per 26 gallons of diesel fuel Price: market value 2)Opti-Lube XPD Multi-purpose + anti-gel cetane improver, demulsifier HFRR 317, 319 micron improvement. 256:1 ratio 13 oz/tank $4.35/tank 3)FPPF RV, Bus, SUV Diesel/Gas fuel treatment Gas and Diesel cetane improver, emulsifier HFRR 439, 197 micron improvement 640:1 ratio 5.2 oz/tank $2.60/tank 4)Opti-Lube Summer Blend Multi-purpose demulsifier HFRR 447, 189 micron improvement 3000:1 ratio 1.11 oz/tank $0.68/tank 5)Opti-Lube Winter Blend Muti-purpose + anti-gel cetane improver HFRR 461, 175 micron improvement 512:1 ratio 6.5 oz/tank $3.65/tank 6)Schaeffer Diesel Treat 2000 Multi-purpose + anti-gel cetane improver, emulsifier, bio-diesel compatible HFRR 470, 166 micron improvement 1000:1 ratio 3.32 oz/tank $1.87/tank 7)Super Tech Outboard 2-cycle TC-W3 engine oil Unconventional (Not ULSD compliant, may damage 2007 or newer systems) HFRR 474, 162 micron improvement 200:1 ratio 16.64 oz/tank $1.09/tank 8)Stanadyne Lubricity Formula Lubricity Only demulsifier, 5% bio-diesel compatible, alcohol free HFRR 479, 157 micron improvement 1000:1 ratio 3.32 oz/tank $1.00/tank 9)Amsoil Diesel Concentrate Multi-purpose demulsifier, bio-diesel compatible, alcohol free HFRR 488, 148 micron improvement 640:1 ratio 5.2 oz/tank $2.16/tank 10)Power Service Diesel Kleen + Cetane Boost Multi-purpose Cetane improver, bio-diesel compatible, alcohol free HFRR 575, 61 micron improvement 400:1 ratio 8.32 oz/tank $1.58/tank 11)Howe’s Meaner Power Kleaner Multi-purpose Alcohol free HFRR 586, 50 micron improvement 1000:1 ratio 3.32 oz/tank $1.36/tank 12)Stanadyne Performance Formula Multi-purpose + anti-gel cetane improver, demulsifier, 5% bio-diesel compatible, alcohol free HFRR 603, 33 micron improvement 480:1 ratio 6.9 oz/tank $4.35/tank 13)Used Motor Oil, Shell Rotella T 15w40, 5,000 miles used. Unconventional (Not ULSD compliant, may damage systems) HFRR 634, 2 micron improvement 200:1 ratio 16.64 oz/tank price: market value 14)Lucas Upper Cylinder Lubricant Gas or diesel HFRR 641, 5 microns worse than baseline (statistically insignificant change) 427:1 ratio 7.8 oz/tank $2.65/tank 15)B1000 Diesel Fuel Conditioner by Milligan Biotech Multi-purpose, canola oil based additive HFRR 644, 8 microns worse than baseline (statistically insignificant change) 1000:1 ratio 3.32 oz/tank $2.67/tank 16)FPPF Lubricity Plus Fuel Power Multi-purpose + anti-gel Emulsifier, alcohol free HFRR 675, 39 microns worse than baseline fuel 1000:1 ratio 3.32 oz/tank $1.12/tank 17)Marvel Mystery Oil Gas, oil and Diesel fuel additive (NOT ULSD compliant, may damage 2007 and newer systems) HFRR 678, 42 microns worse than baseline fuel. 320:1 ratio 10.4 oz/tank $3.22/tank 18)ValvTect Diesel Guard Heavy Duty/Marine Diesel Fuel Additive Multi-purpose Cetane improver, emulsifier, alcohol free HFRR 696, 60 microns worse than baseline fuel 1000:1 ratio 3.32 oz/tank $2.38/tank 19)Primrose Power Blend 2003 Multi-purpose Cetane boost, bio-diesel compatible, emulsifier HFRR 711, 75 microns worse than baseline 1066:1 ratio 3.12 oz/tank $1.39/tank CONCLUSIONS: Products 1 through 4 were able to improve the unadditized fuel to an HFRR score of 460 or better. This meets the most strict requirements requested by the Engine Manufacturers Association. Products 1 through 9 were able to improve the unadditized fuel to an HFRR score of 520 or better, meeting the U.S. diesel fuel requirements for maximum wear scar in a commercially available diesel fuel. Products 16 through 19 were found to cause the fuel/additive blend to perform worse than the baseline fuel. The cause for this is speculative. This is not unprecedented in HFRR testing and can be caused by alcohol or other components in the additives. Further investigation into the possibilities behind these poor results will investigated. Any additive testing within +/- 20 microns of the baseline fuel could be considered to have no significant change. The repeatability of this test allows for a +/- 20 micron variability to be considered insignificant. CREDITS: This study would not have been possible without the participation of all companies involved and dieselplace.com. A special Thank You to all of the dieselplace.com members who generously donated toward this study and waited longer than they should have for the results. You folks are the best. Arlen Spicer, organizer." Tags: Additives, diesel, fuel, Lubricity Share Bookmark and Share ▼ Reply to This Bold Italic Underline Strikethrough Add Hyperlink Add an Image Upload a File Upload Files Attach File(s): * * * Replies to This Discussion jud thomas Permalink Reply by jud thomas on August 17, 2009 at 6:11pm Delete Thanks Chuck, this is good stuff to know. Makes that old Low Sulfer Diesel look good don't it ? ▶ Reply to This Richard - AKA "Big Jayhawk" Permalink Reply by Richard - AKA "Big Jayhawk" on August 18, 2009 at 8:52am Delete Once a month, I just put a gallon of straight Vegetable Oil (Soy) in each tank, it works like a charm... ▶ Reply to This Herb C. Hampton Permalink Reply by Herb C. Hampton on August 18, 2009 at 3:52pm Delete Big Jayhawk, what engine do you have and how much fuel capacity? I would like to add biodiesel but cannot find it in Oklahoma where I live. Herb C. Hampton. Richard - AKA "Big Jayhawk" said: Once a month, I just put a gallon of straight Vegetable Oil (Soy) in each tank, it works like a charm... ▶ Reply to This Richard - AKA "Big Jayhawk" Permalink Reply by Richard - AKA "Big Jayhawk" on August 18, 2009 at 4:02pm Delete I have a Detroit 60 Series in a '97 Freightliner w/ 1.5 million miles on it. I have 110 gallon tanks. I started doing it by accident. My wife found some out of date vegetable oil in the back of the cupboard, and instead of throwing it out, I poured it in the tanks. It smoothed out the vibration in the engine on hard pulls, and I always get my best mpg when it's in there. I've been doing it for 3 or 4 years now, with no problems... Herb C. Hampton said: Big Jayhawk, what engine do you have and how much fuel capacity? I would like to add biodiesel but cannot find it in Oklahoma where I live. Herb C. Hampton. Richard - AKA "Big Jayhawk" said: Once a month, I just put a gallon of straight Vegetable Oil (Soy) in each tank, it works like a charm... ▶ Reply to This jud thomas Permalink Reply by jud thomas on August 18, 2009 at 10:21pm Delete How long does the 'smooth running' last between doses? Richard - AKA "Big Jayhawk" said: I have a Detroit 60 Series in a '97 Freightliner w/ 1.5 million miles on it. I have 110 gallon tanks. I started doing it by accident. My wife found some out of date vegetable oil in the back of the cupboard, and instead of throwing it out, I poured it in the tanks. It smoothed out the vibration in the engine on hard pulls, and I always get my best mpg when it's in there. I've been doing it for 3 or 4 years now, with no problems... Herb C. Hampton said: Big Jayhawk, what engine do you have and how much fuel capacity? I would like to add biodiesel but cannot find it in Oklahoma where I live. Herb C. Hampton. Richard - AKA "Big Jayhawk" said: Once a month, I just put a gallon of straight Vegetable Oil (Soy) in each tank, it works like a charm... ▶ Reply to This Richard - AKA "Big Jayhawk" Permalink Reply by Richard - AKA "Big Jayhawk" on August 19, 2009 at 4:55pm Delete Seems like a week or two. I used to add it more often but I didn't want to overdo it. I notice more of an "improvement" with the veggie oil than I ever did with Lucas or Howes. jud thomas said: How long does the 'smooth running' last between doses? Richard - AKA "Big Jayhawk" said: I have a Detroit 60 Series in a '97 Freightliner w/ 1.5 million miles on it. I have 110 gallon tanks. I started doing it by accident. My wife found some out of date vegetable oil in the back of the cupboard, and instead of throwing it out, I poured it in the tanks. It smoothed out the vibration in the engine on hard pulls, and I always get my best mpg when it's in there. I've been doing it for 3 or 4 years now, with no problems... Herb C. Hampton said: Big Jayhawk, what engine do you have and how much fuel capacity? I would like to add biodiesel but cannot find it in Oklahoma where I live. Herb C. Hampton. Richard - AKA "Big Jayhawk" said: Once a month, I just put a gallon of straight Vegetable Oil (Soy) in each tank, it works like a charm... ▶ Reply to This jud thomas Permalink Reply by jud thomas on August 20, 2009 at 10:42am Delete Is one brand better than the rest ? I might have to re-up my Sam's Club membership to get the really BIG jugs ! I'm going to try this out for sure.(The veg. oil that is.) Richard - AKA "Big Jayhawk" said: Seems like a week or two. I used to add it more often but I didn't want to overdo it. I notice more of an "improvement" with the veggie oil than I ever did with Lucas or Howes. jud thomas said: How long does the 'smooth running' last between doses? Richard - AKA "Big Jayhawk" said: I have a Detroit 60 Series in a '97 Freightliner w/ 1.5 million miles on it. I have 110 gallon tanks. I started doing it by accident. My wife found some out of date vegetable oil in the back of the cupboard, and instead of throwing it out, I poured it in the tanks. It smoothed out the vibration in the engine on hard pulls, and I always get my best mpg when it's in there. I've been doing it for 3 or 4 years now, with no problems... Herb C. Hampton said: Big Jayhawk, what engine do you have and how much fuel capacity? I would like to add biodiesel but cannot find it in Oklahoma where I live. Herb C. Hampton. Richard - AKA "Big Jayhawk" said: Once a month, I just put a gallon of straight Vegetable Oil (Soy) in each tank, it works like a charm... ▶ Reply to This Richard - AKA "Big Jayhawk" Permalink Reply by Richard - AKA "Big Jayhawk" on August 20, 2009 at 10:57am Delete I get it at Aldi's. It's in 48 oz. bottles but it's cheaper than at Walmart by the gallon. I put 3 bottles in each tank and one case is good for 2 months... jud thomas said: Is one brand better than the rest ? I might have to re-up my Sam's Club membership to get the really BIG jugs ! I'm going to try this out for sure.(The veg. oil that is.) Richard - AKA "Big Jayhawk" said: Seems like a week or two. I used to add it more often but I didn't want to overdo it. I notice more of an "improvement" with the veggie oil than I ever did with Lucas or Howes. jud thomas said: How long does the 'smooth running' last between doses? Richard - AKA "Big Jayhawk" said: I have a Detroit 60 Series in a '97 Freightliner w/ 1.5 million miles on it. I have 110 gallon tanks. I started doing it by accident. My wife found some out of date vegetable oil in the back of the cupboard, and instead of throwing it out, I poured it in the tanks. It smoothed out the vibration in the engine on hard pulls, and I always get my best mpg when it's in there. I've been doing it for 3 or 4 years now, with no problems... Herb C. Hampton said: Big Jayhawk, what engine do you have and how much fuel capacity? I would like to add biodiesel but cannot find it in Oklahoma where I live. Herb C. Hampton. Richard - AKA "Big Jayhawk" said: Once a month, I just put a gallon of straight Vegetable Oil (Soy) in each tank, it works like a charm...… Added by CHUCK "Papa -Deux " to Thinker & Tinkers Part 2 at 2:50pm on March 25, 2010 | ||
| Bruce Henderson (Oonrahnjay)
Registered Member Username: Oonrahnjay Post Number: 528 Registered: 8-2004 Posted From: 149.168.204.4  Rating: N/A |
I had seen that research -- it turns out that the work was sponsored by the companies that make the products that came in #1 and #2; nice coincidence that, huh? Still, it's important to realize that the new ULSD fuel is *way* short of the lubricating qualities that most engines were built for. This is important to me because we're a "full diesel" household; my bus and both our cars are diesels (the cars VW Jetta TDI's). Because of the issues involved with lubrication of the fuel, the ASTM committees setting standards for diesel fuel required fuel suppliers to put chemical additives in fuel to assure it provides lubrication up to the "wear scar" limits that Fred quotes in his article. But the standard isn't very high and I'm a little uncomfortable trusting a big company to spend money to protect my interests. And I wonder about how smart it is to put ordinary vegetable oil in fuel. Vegetable oil is a mixture of fatty acid ester chain molecules; the "simpler" the molecule, the better that it burns cleanly. The molecules that have the atoms in long chains can be more of a problem; they often will break down into glycerin under heat and compression. Glycerin is a high-carbon, soapy substance; if you try to burn it, it leaves lots of hard, ashy carbon deposits. Some people who have burned vegetable oil in diesels have found that these burned glycerin deposits have accumulated in their injectors. In the worst cases, the injector spray pattern has been affected so that the sprayed fuel will develop hot and cold spots inside the engine -- and this has resulted in burned spots on pistons (worst is when a piston is burned near the rings) or contamination of the oil by unburned vegetable oil getting blown past the rings. How much of a danger is this to our engines? Probably not much, is my guess -- but that's only my guess. I'm not an expert but I've followed scientific research from Bosch and Engine Manufacturer Ass'n during the change over to ULSD. The worst effects are being seen in direct injection engines, with high pressure electronically controlled injectors and I would think that few of us have those. Also, it's probably like cholesterol -- if you have only a small amount of a substance in a normal system, the usual cleaning effects of the system will allow the substance that you don't want to move through and out of the system without damage. But if it's overdone and begins to build up because it has overloaded the normal cleaning effects, then you could get into trouble. The manufacture of biodiesel is a process that either breaks up or removes those long-chain fatty ester molecules from vegetable oil and that's why biodiesel can safely be run in almost all diesel engines (except the new ones with very finicky Particulate Traps, etc.) But plain vegetable oil in fuel? I think that I'm going to be careful about that. | ||
| L James Jones Jr (Jamo)
Registered Member Username: Jamo Post Number: 134 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 24.59.114.207  Rating: N/A |
Anybody have the "Cliff Notes" for all of that? Ain't enough coffee in the pot to get through that this AM. I do have enough beer in the fridge though. Tonight it is... | ||
| Pete/RTS Daytona (Pete_rtsdaytona)
Registered Member Username: Pete_rtsdaytona Post Number: 608 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 97.104.18.110  Rating: N/A |
FF - send me an email - I have the tires gauges you were missing from your set !! - see I'm not really such a bad guy after all. now - back to business FF - I see your a day late and a dollar short again as usual I posted about this study (IN A READABLE FORMAT) a LONG TIME AGO see--> http://www.busnut.com/bbs/messages/233/18810.html the actual study --> http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=177728 Bruce - The ACTUAL STUDY was talking about adding some BIO-DIESEL to ULSD to give it more lubricity - not straight vegtable oil BUT - I'M BEGINING TO BELIEVE THIS STUDY IS CRAP - now this is all my opion (for what ever that's worth) they say--> All ULSD fuel purchased at retail fuel stations SHOULD (!!! ALREADY (the study conveniently left this word out !!!) be adequately treated with additives to replace this lost lubricity. - They go on to say that "some" fuels test did not have treatment - remember this study was in the VERY early release of ULSD and this may be very true - but I certainly don't think ANY ULSD gets shipped without REFINERY ADDED LUBRICITY ADDITIVES ANYMORE. NOW HERE'S THE KICKER -> the then say "...The Research firm obtained a quantity of “untreated” ULSD fuel from a supplier... UNTREATED - what the HELL do they mean here - UNTREATED - THEY PURPOSELY PROCURRED FUEL that had no additives from the REFINERY - what a damn scam --> of course "REFINERY UNTREATED ULSD" will score low in lubricity test Gentleman I think we've been SNOOKERED - well at least I was - I bought a gallon of Schaeffer Diesel Treat 2000 - I should go find that damn salesman a tell him what I think of him and the company he works for !! I also suspect that the study was FUNDED be OPTI-LUBE (how convenient) - they use the study on thier website see--> http://www.spencertechnicalsalesinc.com/Opti_Lube_Summer_Diesel_Fuel_Additive.html Pete RTS/Daytona (Message edited by pete_rts/daytona on March 26, 2010) (Message edited by pete_rts/daytona on March 26, 2010) (Message edited by pete_rts/daytona on March 26, 2010) (Message edited by pete_rts/daytona on March 26, 2010) (Message edited by pete_rts/daytona on March 26, 2010) | ||
| Austin Scott Davis (Zimtok)
Registered Member Username: Zimtok Post Number: 410 Registered: 9-2006 Posted From: 209.156.24.114  Rating: N/A |
I'm with you "Jamo" That is one long paragraph to read this early in the morning..... I need much more coffee..... I test my fuel nearly every time I fill up...... 1. As I fill the tank I smell the fuel, (it usually smells like diesel fuel, mif it smells like gas I stop immediately. ...) 2. When it gets close to being full and I'm looking down into the filler tube to get the last of it in it splashes back in my face and it tastes like diesel fuel. 3. As I wipe it off my face/hands it sure feels like it has adequate lubricity..... This is what I call the "Common Sense Test". I use some of my common senses to do the testing. In this case I use touch, smell, taste, and to a lesser degree sight. Note: Although the sound of Diesel being dispensed is a little different then other liquids, almost all types of diesel sound the same. Fred, This is interesting information. Keep on the lookout for stuff like this and keep posting it here. I think there is probably some truth to what they tested, but it may have been slanted a little in favor of selling their products.... . (Message edited by zimtok on March 26, 2010) (Message edited by zimtok on March 26, 2010) | ||
| Bob Davidson (Rottenbob)
Registered Member Username: Rottenbob Post Number: 1 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 24.136.204.205 Rating: |
Rule #1: Never trust a document where the first word is misspelled. | ||
| Rob Allen (Rob_allen)
Registered Member Username: Rob_allen Post Number: 20 Registered: 6-2009 Posted From: 194.69.148.1  Rating: N/A |
I run my bus with the thought that the low cost of an additive compared to the high cost of filling a 150gal diesel tank makes the additive cost essentially not matter to me, because of that I always add something, I've used both Lucas and Power Service. It may very well be that they are both just colored mystery snake oil and you could get the same effect by adding a little 40weight which certainly wouldn't hurt these old two strokes. Either way I feel the small amount of addittive won't hurt the engine, and if that little bit of extra money gives the old girl 5 or 10 more years then it's more than worth it to me, but there won't be anyway to tell if it ever worked, without a time machine anyway. I do know that some version of the new ULSD affected one of my vehicles. I run a 83 F250 with the naturally aspirated 6.9 international engine and on Easter last year after owning the truck for about 3 months I was driving to a friends house and the engine stuck at high rev, I thought it was running away, and had to do some tricky driving to stay on the road in low speed areas. Once I got it back to the house I did some research into it and found that it was a common problem happening with that engine after the ULSD swap. Before I bought the truck it was being used off road on a farm so I think they were using old stock high sulfur off road fuel. The consensus seems that the mechanical, engine govenor within the injection pump is sticking from a result of less lubrication in the fuel. I started always using an additive or veg oil with truck and have never had a problem since. I didn't have to take any thing apart to fix the truck, right after that happened I left it parked, went out and bought some off road, mixed it with a additive, added it to the tank and let the truck idle out. But I also agree that as long as the additive companies are the ones running the studies there will always be some bias, and because of that theres no good way to know what really works and what doesn't do anything, everythings a gamble. | ||
| Kevin Baxter (Bus_boy)
Registered Member Username: Bus_boy Post Number: 2 Registered: 10-2009 Posted From: 159.83.168.253 Rating: N/A |
Anyone interested in running biodiesel or vegetable oil in their DD may find the information on the "FRYBRID" website very interesting. From what I have gleaned whilst perusing this site for the past couple of years is that it may be a poor idea to simply mix vegetable oil in with your diesel fuel. There can be a reaction known as polymerization (m/s?) wherein the vegetable oil breaks down into a plastic-like goo - something that resembles chicken skin - and can not only plug injectors but ultimately destroy your engine due to bearing failures, etc. I do not claim to be particularly knowledgeable about this subject, but do encourage anyone to at least read the Frybrid information thoroughly before adding vegetable oil to their diesel fuel. I intend to convert my PD 4104 to run on waste vegetable oil eventually - based on a two-tank system (diesel/vegetable oil) per the Frybrid site theory. Cheers! | ||
| Bruce Henderson (Oonrahnjay)
Registered Member Username: Oonrahnjay Post Number: 529 Registered: 8-2004 Posted From: 149.168.204.4 Rating: N/A |
Pete "RTS/Daytona" wrote: "Bruce - The ACTUAL STUDY was talking about adding some BIO-DIESEL to ULSD to give it more lubricity - not straight vegtable oil " Yes, but mixed in it was a statement that a trucker was pouring his wife's old "outta-date" cooking oil in his tank -- as if that was something to do with the study. Sorry that my comments didn't indicate the different aspects of the initial post that I was talking about. | ||
| George M. Todd (George_todd)
Registered Member Username: George_todd Post Number: 964 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 99.172.180.138 Rating: N/A |
Well, Not only is the first word mis-spelled, so is SULFUR, almost every time it is mentioned! (It is sulfur we are talking about here isn't it?) The study is indeed in the archives, in a tabulated form, which is much easier to read. G | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 1123 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 66.82.9.53 Rating: N/A |
"but I certainly don't think ANY ULSD gets shipped without REFINERY ADDED LUBRICITY ADDITIVES ANYMORE." Great concept , but the way fuel is shipped from a refinery is thru a pipeline , with plugs called PIGS between batches of raw supply . Cross contamination is a huge problem , the tiny amount of lead left on 500 miles of pipe is why leaded Aircraft gas is hard to get .It contaminated the car gas , so is delivered by truck. The local fuel distributor is the fellow that perhaps, installs the required local chemicals. This is true for diesel and gas which has 30 or 40 local requirements by Zip code , and perhaps ethanol mixed in.. How any of these additives are mixed in , or what they do in a bus camper that sits for months at a time is unknown. In this case using one of the top 4 that are claimed to work would seem like a few bucks worth of insurance, FF | ||
| Kevin Baxter (Bus_boy)
Registered Member Username: Bus_boy Post Number: 3 Registered: 10-2009 Posted From: 98.119.179.203 Rating: N/A |
Zimtoc, Hilarity! "Common Sense Taste test"?! Yeah, haven't we all... Well, maybe just you and me. That is too hilarious! | ||
| Kevin Baxter (Bus_boy)
Registered Member Username: Bus_boy Post Number: 4 Registered: 10-2009 Posted From: 98.119.179.203 Rating: N/A |
Jamo, Beer in the fridge? I'll be right there! | ||
| Kevin Baxter (Bus_boy)
Registered Member Username: Bus_boy Post Number: 5 Registered: 10-2009 Posted From: 98.119.179.203 Rating: N/A |
Fastest of the Freds, Interesting information and certainly something to think about. I have heard something about the currently-available diesel fuel (characteristics) drying out seals in injectors. The one gentleman's remarks - in your post - of his wife having poured waste vegetable oil into his tank (unbeknownst to him, apparently) caught my attention as I had read that it could be harmful. FWIW. Long live GM! :o) | ||
| L James Jones Jr (Jamo)
Registered Member Username: Jamo Post Number: 136 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 24.59.114.207 Rating: N/A |
Kevin/Busboy... Always beer in the fridge. Ever have a Utica Club? Locally brewed and our favorite. Google search "Shultz and Dooley" ads for either West End Brewing (old name) or FX Matt Brewing, Utica, NY. Fun old ads to watch... Checked your profile...kinda far away for a beer run, but you never know, eh?? | ||
| Tom Christman (Tchristman)
Registered Member Username: Tchristman Post Number: 198 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.218.33.156 Rating: N/A |
Curious fact that the new engines that are using in the range of 32,000lbs of injector tip pressure and that these injectors have the tightest clearances yet for fuel injectors-that none of the engine manufacturers are recommending fuel additive. The ONLY time they recommend fuel additive is for cold weather protection. Compared to the new engines, our unit fuel injectors are old loosy goosy clearances. Personally-I'm not too worried about it. Good Luck, TomC | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 1124 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 69.19.14.34 Rating: N/A |
OLd engines are great! On some of the trawlers that went to get cheap fuel from Hugo Chavez , they have had to dump the fuel and replace the injectors , so fuel Quality dies matter. 20c a gal fuel for $12,000 worth of injectors! The high injection pressures don't like dirt and water , our antique DD injectors have far more goodies inside that slide as the fuel is pushed out. And sliding is where the lubricating ability of the fuel counts. FF | ||
| Frank Radosti (Frank4104)
Registered Member Username: Frank4104 Post Number: 50 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 97.104.2.30  Rating: N/A |
Dose any one running 6-71 useing any lucas fuel additives? | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 1125 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 69.19.14.23 Rating: N/A |
"Dose any one running 6-71 useing any lucas fuel additives?" 14)Lucas Upper Cylinder Lubricant Gas or diesel HFRR 641, 5microns worse than baseline (statistically insignificant change) 427:1 ratio7.8 oz/tank$2.65/tank For what purpose? FF | ||
| Justin Burie (Justinb)
Registered Member Username: Justinb Post Number: 15 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 209.254.23.194 Rating: N/A |
Additionally to the lubricity issues of ULSD is the reduction of cetane. In the cmmercial market & more modern engines, we are seeing a pretty significant jump in injection system failures. We area also seeing a petty significant drop in fuel economy while life to overhaul has lost some lustre too. I will attibute a little of th eliofe to overhaul issues to the fuels but the likely culprit is retarded injection timing, EGR & the soot that they create. Stinking NOx regulations anyways... With ULSD the jobber delivering from the tank farm/terminal is supposed to add in cetane boosters & lubricants. None are willing to show what they do & do not add. The best test for cetane boost is the old turkey-baster cetane tester. The fleets that I respect for their tracking of vehicle operating costs down to the penny swear by Stanedyne for thier fuel treatment. They will usually splash treat the tank at 500:1 fuel to treatment. | ||
| Len Silva (Lsilva)
Registered Member Username: Lsilva Post Number: 348 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 72.187.35.208  Rating: N/A |
Here is my method for assuring proper engine performance. 1. Fill tank with fuel 2. Drive 3. Repeat | ||
| Kevin Baxter (Bus_boy)
Registered Member Username: Bus_boy Post Number: 6 Registered: 10-2009 Posted From: 98.119.179.203 Rating: N/A |
Jamo, Utica Club? Not yet... Sounds delicious. We like Widmer Brother's Wheat Beer. And the original Foster's Lager. Can't really get that anymore though... Road Trip?! Just let me get the Ol' '04 rolling on WVO so's I can afford to drive 'er more than a few feet, and you never know... :o) |
