| Author | Message | ||
| les marston (Les_marston)
Registered Member Username: Les_marston Post Number: 47 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 68.151.248.141 Rating: N/A |
Has anyone tried this on a coach or truck or have any practical experience with it? The propaganda sounds good but of coarse they are trying to sell them. I would be very interested in hearing from anyone who has used it and what effect if any it had. Les | ||
| thomas flocks (Taflocks)
Registered Member Username: Taflocks Post Number: 234 Registered: 9-2009 Posted From: 74.76.246.165 Rating: N/A |
a url would be nice. | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 1151 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 66.82.162.20  Rating: |
"a url would be nice." Would rather get the URL for the anti-gravity machine left here by the visiting space aliens. Probably has a better chance of working! FF | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
Registered Member Username: Kyle4501 Post Number: 561 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 65.23.106.193  Rating: |
The vortex fuel saver system will work as well as the latest perpetual motion machine. However its real purpose is to simply move $$ from your pocket. When considering the add on items that save fuel & etc, one would be wise to consider why those items are not currently in use by the vehicle manufacturers. If the hype was real, then why wouldn't they be used to improve fleet emmissions & efficiency? Maybe because they didn't use the fuel line magnets . . . . | ||
| Len Silva (Lsilva)
Registered Member Username: Lsilva Post Number: 355 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 72.187.35.208  Rating: |
Oh, it's because the oil companies prohibit the car manufacturers from using all those devices. I can't believe you didn't know that. | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
Registered Member Username: Kyle4501 Post Number: 562 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 65.23.106.193 Rating: |
Oooooohhhhh, DUH! Then, by all means, go out & get several - if one is good, then more must be better. Don't forget the fuel line magnets.  | ||
| Bill Gerrie (Bill_gerrie)
Registered Member Username: Bill_gerrie Post Number: 354 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 216.198.139.38  Rating: N/A |
I tried one of these in my pickup truck and they don't work. If you do a search on Google you will find they have been tested and proven by an independent lab to have no affect on mileage. | ||
| George Martinez (Foohorse)
Registered Member Username: Foohorse Post Number: 91 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 174.48.6.180  Rating: N/A |
caca | ||
| les marston (Les_marston)
Registered Member Username: Les_marston Post Number: 48 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 68.151.248.141 Rating: N/A |
nuff said. another wonderful dream shattered by reality. was afraid that would be the answer. Like my old pappy always said. "If it sounds to good to be true it likely isn't true" Les | ||
| George M. Todd (George_todd)
Registered Member Username: George_todd Post Number: 995 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 64.55.111.6 Rating: N/A |
My ex-wife's brother-in-law's cousin had a 54 Chevy that the factory let get out with a 40 MPG carburetor on it by mistake. They came out and took it back about two weeks later. (At least thats what she said.) G | ||
| John Lacey (Junkman42)
Registered Member Username: Junkman42 Post Number: 120 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 66.82.9.11  Rating: |
Did the Chevy grabbers come from Roswell? | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
Registered Member Username: Kyle4501 Post Number: 563 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 65.23.106.193 Rating: N/A |
A better explaination on why it won't work: http://www.fuelsaving.info/turbulence.htm Some info concerning those fuel line magnets: http://www.fuelsaving.info/magnets.htm Damnit, still no free lunch!  | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 1161 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 173.202.27.129  Rating: N/A |
I think it will work if you include the magnetic fuel line equalizer and the hydrogen generator in the system!! It will work even better with a turbine at the end of the exhaust pipe!! (Message edited by gusc on April 21, 2010) | ||
| Donald P H (Eagle19952)
Registered Member Username: Eagle19952 Post Number: 24 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 75.247.238.235 Rating: N/A |
I have a 4 blade Hunter fan in the rear bedroom of my coach.On third speed, the verical lift of the rear of the bus lightens the axle load significantly.I have found that this increases my fuel economy (ironicly) by 30%. | ||
| Jack Fids (Jack_fids)
Registered Member Username: Jack_fids Post Number: 34 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 32.176.156.181 Rating: N/A |
I thought of testing one as a macerator ..... I mean it does the same job on your cash so why not? | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 1124 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.162.73.12  Rating: N/A |
Oh man.... youse guys.... Re: "If the hype was real, then why wouldn't they be used to improve fleet emissions & efficiency? " I'm in the process of beta-testing a neat unit from a major diesel chip manufacturer. So far, it's raised the HP substantially, and increased the mpg of my 7.3 to an average 16mpg around town. They're still tweaking the program....But right now, my E350 superduty 1 ton van feels like a sports car. The manufacturers all set the engine tunes to provide the best compromise of power and efficiency for the average user, but limiting it all to the pollution standards set by the gubberment. That's fine for us tree lovers, but doesn't hack it for those if us that love trees and still want economy and power. (by the way, bully-dog Inc., is looking for beta testers, and a trip to their web site may prove worthwhile) (hint-hint) I remember back in the 60's, meeting a guy that was running a heater core (fed with the engine coolant), to preheat the diesel fuel for his diesel pickup truck. He boasted over 30mpg with this trick. If I wasn't so lazy, I'd grab a used radiator with a oil cooler, and Rube Goldberg it together. There are ways to get better mileage, but magnets aren't the solution; neither is that Kotex device Les is asking about.... If I had a bus with a computer operated injection system, I would ask one of the major chip programming companies if they could work up a program for me.... Beta testing Big Rigs / Detroit Diesel Yeah, it's an infomercial..... so kill me. Seriously, you'd have to experience the amount of power and gains in performance, to fully comprehend what the manufacturers aren't including in their generic package. | ||
| Jack Fids (Jack_fids)
Registered Member Username: Jack_fids Post Number: 36 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 32.176.156.181 Rating: N/A |
Alien antigravity Physics & devices explained Why can't this board have accurate & active members like this one has? | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 1155 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 69.19.14.29 Rating: N/A |
For most of my life there have been stories about the "Oil Companies" purchasing prototype 100mpg carbs and other mileage gadgets.. To sell an idea to any company a PATENT (or at least pending) is required . Everything patented is public , can be found on the web. The Chinese Communist gov does not recognize " patented " property , so they would INSTANTLY reproduce and use any device (if there ever was one) that reduced fuel consumption. For FREE to themselves. FF | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
Registered Member Username: Kyle4501 Post Number: 564 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 65.23.106.193 Rating: N/A |
bullydog doesn't have to worry about paying for the busted engine like the factory does. A friend has a ford diesel with the bullydog upgrade. Can pull smoke off all 4 rear tires with or without the equipment trailer. In less than 20,000 miles, he had a major engine failure that wasn't covered by warranty or bullydog - He had to fork out over $10,000 to get his truck back to useable condition. To think that the engineers that designed the engine are too stupid to know how to properly tune it is the height of arrogant ignorance. Sure, there are some instances where an aftermarket chip can improve mileage or performance, but the factory has to field the best compromise for ALL conditions, not just a select few. In the Airstream club, there are those with chiped up trucks that will haul ass up any hill and claim super fuel mileage. On a caravan trip, you tend to stop in groups to buy fuel. Funny thing is they buy about the same ammount fuel as those without the chips . . . Interesting math being used . . . Still no free lunch. The increased power from a chip is gonna cost somewhere else that you may not expect. Usually in reduced life of the engine. Don't get me wrong, I like power improvements & enjoy having access to more power than I need - I'm not a fan of hiding or glossing over the potential problems that come with that extra power. | ||
| ED Hackenbruch (Shadowman)
Registered Member Username: Shadowman Post Number: 274 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 75.230.178.71 Rating: N/A |
Well, i used them all at one time on one rig and ran into a major problem. They all promised to save 10%, 20%, 30%, etc. and they did! The problem that i ran into was that they all worked so well together that after the first fuel up i never had to stop for fuel again because they were actually creating fuel!!!!! I had to stop every now and then and drain fuel out of my tank so it would not keep overflowing. Finally had to take them all off after the EPA started fining me for polluting the environment. Oops,... i guess April first was a few weeks ago. :>) | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 1849 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 76.69.140.226  Rating: N/A |
And the biggest loser in "chipping" is the flagrant abuse of the emissions. Black smoke from a modern diesel isn't right. No good for those of us who have to submit the vehicle for periodic testing. happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 1125 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.162.73.12 Rating: |
WOW Re: "To think that the engineers that designed the engine are too stupid to know how to properly tune it is the height of arrogant ignorance. " Gee, -that- wasn't too frikkin arrogant, was it? You really oughta' read what was printed, rather than to the voices you hear in your head. Sorry man, but I did take that personally. Let me repeat my statement for you: "The manufacturers all set the engine tunes to provide the best compromise of power and efficiency for the average user, but limiting it all to the pollution standards set by the gubberment." The engine and drive train will not suffer one iota under normal usage with a device like the Bully Dog PMT. But.... if some idiot is going to "smoke off all 4 rear tires with or without the equipment trailer." , then they don't respect the equipment enough to not suffer the consequences of a stupid, irresponsible acts. To find fault with the manufacturer of the vehicle, or the after market supplier, is equally ignorant and irresponsible as that vehicle's operator. Your friend is obviously an idiot, don't let it rub off on you, willya'? As far as fuel economy? I use a GPS to get the mileage readings, not the speedometer. On many of the after market devices, the speedometer loses some accuracy and can give a false reading. The engineer I'm working with, mentioned this; it's a fairly common oversight of those using the "chips". Using a GPS unit removes the chance of false readings. My mileage "around town" has increased, but I have yet to take a long trip to see what the "highway" conditions will produce. The biggest problem of using the unit, is the strong compulsion to drive faster. My 1 ton van feels like a sports car, and it can be difficult to keep from "'showing off" and being an idiot.... But.... The Bully Dog "PMT" unit allows the operator to set "defuel" limits for various engine parameters. If the transmission oil temperature, engine oil or water temperature, turbo boost pressure, pyro, etc, go beyond limit, the engine will defuel and not allow the condition to continue. Oh, and if it's "smoking", it isn't set properly. It's funny that would even enter into the equation among hobbyists using old Detroit Diesel 2-stroke bombers. But no "fail safe" programming will make up for an individual wishing to override or ignore the limits of the engine and drive train. An idiot is an idiot, and an idiot will ruin a good thing one way or the other eventually, regardless of stock or high performance. Incidentally.... The vehicles used for ambulance service, etc., all have tunes that are not used in standard consumer vehicles. There is no loss of engine life among the vehicles used in service conditions as compared to their consumer counterparts. (although there aren't as many idiots driving them) Cheers! | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 1163 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 173.202.40.173 Rating: N/A |
Anti-gravity machine, I should have included that one too because it sure cuts down on tire friction! You just turn it off for braking. | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Registered Member Username: Niles500 Post Number: 964 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 173.78.39.41 Rating: N/A |
"The engine and drive train will not suffer one iota under normal usage with a device like the Bully Dog PMT." "Incidentally.... The vehicles used for ambulance service, etc., all have tunes that are not used in standard consumer vehicles. There is no loss of engine life among the vehicles used in service conditions as compared to their consumer counterparts" JTNG - neither of those statements are true - sorry to be the one ... | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 1157 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 66.82.162.16 Rating: N/A |
" On many of the after market devices, the speedometer loses some accuracy and can give a false reading." NO doubt a speedo will not be dead on accurate, but the readings are very accurate in terms of repeatibility.Especially when monitored for a few thousand miles. So using the speedo , and logging every drop of fuel is a fine way to get a "Better - Worse - No change" concept of weather a technique , device or additive actually does anything. FF | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 1126 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.162.73.12 Rating: |
Niles - There are two brands that are said to have a remarkable record for producing these safe after market devices: Edge and Bully Dog. The notion that one of these devices would be responsible for an engine or transmission failure, is akin to blaming gun ownership for crime and deaths; there is virtually no difference in the leap of logic. I would suggest you study the abilities of Bully Dog's PMT unit, and Edge's top of the line unit, before offering your critique. And if you have a doubt that service vehicles (ambulance, etc) are tuned (programmed) differently, I would suggest you look into it a bit deeper. I have; they are. Don't compare these to "Vortex fuel savers", "magnets", and the devices sold on Ebay with little literature and backing. You get what you pay for, and with both these brands, you're paying for a ton of technology and expertise. In the hands of an idiot, you should expect to see idiotic results. You don't blame a vehicle manufacturer for an accident due to driver stupidity....... Put the blame where it belongs. . | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 1850 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 76.66.16.198 Rating: N/A |
John, where do I find the independent data for these high-end controllers? You know how we all like sources on here! I have to pass emissions tests, and have some cash left over to fund some education for the progeny. happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| steve wardwell (Steve_wardwell)
Registered Member Username: Steve_wardwell Post Number: 11 Registered: 2-2010 Posted From: 75.200.244.136  Rating: N/A |
catfight !I'll put money on the dog ! lol | ||
| Jack Fids (Jack_fids)
Registered Member Username: Jack_fids Post Number: 39 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 166.128.13.78 Rating: N/A |
I put MY money in an aluminum cylinder with 6 wheels that GM built in 1964! (maybe that should have said "An aluminum tube made by GM sucks the cash right out of my greasy little mitts!) | ||
| George Martinez (Foohorse)
Registered Member Username: Foohorse Post Number: 101 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 174.48.6.180 Rating: N/A |
CAT FIGHT!! where? LET ME AT EM.... down Carrie, down, good girl. there are no cats. | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Registered Member Username: Niles500 Post Number: 965 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 173.78.39.41 Rating: N/A |
Why would the installation and use of the Bully Dog void your factory warranty if they are "harmless" ? BTW if you're going to use the radical settings you may want to be on the lookout for an extra tranny - FWIW P.S. Like BW I'd like to see the dyno w/ emissions (Message edited by niles500 on April 23, 2010) | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 1127 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.162.73.12 Rating: N/A |
Buswarrior - Re: "independent data for these high-end controllers" I fired off that question to both vendors and will do whatever it takes to get some info for you. It likely won't be before next week, tho... Other news for bus owners: http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onrdiesel/onrdiesel.htm http://www.redorbit.com/news/business/1807561/california_should_delay_offroad_diesel_deadl ines_given_new_state_data/index.html http://www.arb.ca.gov/regact/nonreg/inuseoffroad10.pdf Essentially, the pollution regulations "may be" lifted for -all- buses and trucks in the state of Kalifornia, not only off-road diesel. The recession is said to have taken it's toll on the industry, and conforming to new regulations is causing businesses to fail while attempting to conform to the new standards. Pollution doesn't mean a thing, when it's a matter of $$$. Oh, and yeah.... the standards were legislated back in '08. | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 1128 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.162.73.12 Rating: N/A |
nilesie... Re: "Why would the installation and use of the Bully Dog void your factory warranty if they are "harmless" ?" Who writes your questions? Taking off the back of your refrigerator will void the warranty. Taking off the back of your television will void the warranty. Breaking the seal on any electrical device usually voids any warranty. And according to "youse guys", doing any modification to your electrical system without sticking to "codes" and/or having a license to do the work, will void your insurance. You support buying a commercial 9 to 11 ton vehicle that usually requires a commercial license to drive; slip behind the wheel and drive it without proper training...... using the legal loophole that makes it a "Recreational Vehicle" that requires nothing more than a automotive license to drive..... But.... you're concerned about tweaking a computer controlled engine and drive train, with an elaborate instrument designed to do that task with as much care and concern as the manufacturer of that vehicle? You condone raising the roof of a carefully engineered and designed bus; changing the aerodynamics and construction considerations of safety and durability forever more..... You accept the notion that the original sized tires, or the originally designed brakes, can be changed to newer types without regard to the vehicle's well engineered design..... The idea of adding a propane injector to increase horsepower of a two-banger is welcomed....... But you're concerned about using a device that was carefully engineered to work within the manufacturer's intended application and guidelines? Pretty damned hypocritical, ehh, what? Mountains out of molehills, methinks. . | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1242 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.210.123.76 Rating: N/A |
............. RCB | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Registered Member Username: Niles500 Post Number: 966 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 173.78.39.41 Rating: N/A |
"Who writes your questions?" Why of course I@N does ..... he writes all the questions ..... I thought you knew ;-o BTW - I didn't say you should do any of those things | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 1851 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 76.66.16.198 Rating: N/A |
Thanks! happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
Registered Member Username: Kyle4501 Post Number: 565 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 74.179.157.109 Rating: N/A |
The ability to discern the difference in fact & marketing hype is very usefull when discussing these things. Fortunately, we each & all have a 'board reputation' & the readers know who is making sound observations vs lunatic rants. Methinks someone's meds may be off. There is no doubt the chips & programs will effect performance, however the results may have some unplanned side effects. The thought that it won't harm the engine if operated "properly", is pure bull s. . . . Torque is torque, the parts don't know the difference of why it is being applied. Once you exceed the yeild point, permanent deformation takes place. There is a reason there is an effort made by the factory to stay below the "endurance limit" of the materials. I believe those capable of critical thought know how to determine what is acceptable for modifications while those who are easily swayed by marketing hype may experience an opportunity to spend more $$$. | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 1129 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.162.73.12 Rating: N/A |
Kyle - Re: "Torque is torque, the parts don't know the difference of why it is being applied. Once you exceed the yeild point, permanent deformation takes place. There is a reason there is an effort made by the factory to stay below the "endurance limit" of the materials. " So what you're saying is, that the manufacturer's design shouldn't be tampered with under any circumstance? But you have said in the past, that: ------------------------- Kyle Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 1:00 pm: I don't know all the details, but a 740 will fit in a 5 & run for years. A friend has one that is as the factory built it - 8v71 & allison 740. Custom coach conversion from new - never in commercial service. Stainless holding tanks too. luvrbus Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 2:08 pm: Kyle, maybe Custom Coach found a way to do the 740 and 8v71 set up in the 5 but it did not come from MCI.i heard at 1 time MCI owned Custom Coach Kyle Posted on Friday, November 30, 2007 - 12:41 pm: If Custom Coach did it, then a 740 WILL fit, contrary as it seems to conventional wisdom. I suppose it would be prudent for one considering the change to look at a 5C with the 740 & take a few notes & measurements for comparison to what they currently have. This would verify what is required for the swap rather than dismissing a posibility due to hersay from those that claim "it can't be done". -------------------------- Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501) Posted on Monday, June 02, 2008 - 11:05 am: It occurs to me that -IF- one wanted the huge HP to climb hills & accelerate, this propane injection would be cheaper than repowering & having to feed all those thirsty horses ALL the time. I did notice that my 4501 did best when driven in it's 'sweet spot' & there was very little performance difference between full & 3/4 throttle hill climbing. Yes, she'd run almost 80 against the gov. But ~3/4 throttle yeilded 60 to 65 & she didn't labor much on the hills. If I drove at 50 to 55, she was constantly struggling & lost lots of speed on even the smallest of hills. -------------------------- Hmmm..... I guess if "one wanted the huge HP to climb hills & accelerate", they can do just about anything to get there, ehh? Just a lil' hypocritical Kyle.... ehh what? Just a lil' shy of totally disingenuous, perhaps? Incidentally, the manager truck division of the local Ford dealership (he handles the diesels), set me onto the "Bully-Dog" devices. He runs one in his Ford pickup. I was made aware, that the consumer vehicles are set up very conservatively to insure the owner doesn't get carried away with the amount of power at hand. A diesel can do wonderful things when it's needed to, but it can be damaging as well, if one treats it like a toy. Relax Kyle.. Try to re-think this matter through. I'm hoping to convince one of these companies to make a programmer for the later models DD, and other bus types. Cheers! | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
Registered Member Username: Kyle4501 Post Number: 566 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 65.23.106.193 Rating: N/A |
Wow, you had to go back 2 years or more. Custom coach put the 740 in mci5 with the assistance of mci. Custom coach & mci also stood behind the installation with a full waranty that would repair the bus. There is a HUGE difference in what marketing can promise when you can exclude "Attachments, accessory items, and parts not manufactured by Bully Dog". . . . As for propane injection . . . One needs to consider the factory HP settings for the given engine - a NA 8V71 can be set at over 318 HP by only changing the timming & injectors (the bottom end remains the same) - The parts won't know the difference in the fuel used to get this power level. I guess I was wrong to assume others would be smart enough to comprehend the dangers of exceeding the rated HP for the internal parts. Also, there is a huge difference in the design of lightweight vs. heavy duty engines. The hp ratings are based on different life spans & failure rates. If you can get 400+ hp from a light weight engine, then why not use those engines in class 8 trucks & buses - the weight savings would allow more freight to be hauled for 'free'. I've worked at several dealerships in the parts dept & service & known many managers at dealerships. Based on that experience, I wouldn't trust any advice they gave. Too close to the sales dept & too far from the mechanic. john, As for you suggesting I need to re-think this matter, may I suggest that I am the one who has thought about this, as opposed to simple mindedly drinking the coolaid. All I was trying to get across is that if the hype & promises seem too good to be true . . . . | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
Registered Member Username: Kyle4501 Post Number: 567 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 65.23.106.193 Rating: N/A |
re: "So what you're saying is, that the manufacturer's design shouldn't be tampered with under any circumstance?" john - you need to stop putting words in other people's mouth. If you would spend a little more time comprehending & less time jumping to conclusions you would see that my point is to caution others to make sure they understand what they are trying to do - as opposed to blindly following the advertising that is trying to get you to spend your $$$ on their product. Every decision is a compromise. The way to make the best compromise is understanding "the system". You do that by having as much information as you can from independent sources. | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 1130 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.162.73.12 Rating: N/A |
Good show Kyle, and no hard feeling are ever intended here... The real issue, is that you (and others) are overlooking the engineering and programming behind the Bully Dog PMT device. (It is similar to the Edge "high end" device). The (BD) unit monitors the engine and transmission's temperature, turbo boost pressure, pyro temperatures for the exhaust, etc. and allows the defuel limits to be set accordingly. There is no way, once the defuel limits are set, that the device will allow the user or vehicle, to exceed the limits and cause damage. The feature of being able to keep the performance to within OE specs alone.... plus the added feature of having built-in gauges for each of the OE components...... and the added feature of being able to use an additional pyrometer (or to add one or two) to the existing system, is well worth the money these type devices cost. Being able to safely add performance selectivity, while enhancing MPG when desired, is something not to be discarded offhandedly; It's something worth looking into and explored.... Like I stated earlier, these devices aren't some tossed together Ebay special; they're well engineered and programmed. Sorry if this sounds like a major commercial, but I had serious doubts myself, regarding these things. I really couldn't see spending a lot of cash for more HP and a few more MPG. Since having one, and using it for the short time I have, I am convinced that they are indeed, well worth what they charge for them. So far, I wouldn't give mine up if they demanded it back. Oh....... and as far as voiding any warrantee? My van is a 2002 model and not of any consideration... but I wouldn't hesitate using one on a 2010 model, knowing that there are settings that will prevent overrunning any conditions of the manufacturer's engineering. The fact a manufacturer will use anything at all to get out of paying for a failure, is the reason for setting things back to the OE default and removing the device. If they found out Delco oil was used in my wife's Suzuki RX4, I'm sure they'd use it as a reason to tear up the contract if the engine failed. Fuel line magnets, anyone? | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
Registered Member Username: Kyle4501 Post Number: 568 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 65.23.106.193 Rating: N/A |
I am not overlooking, on the contrary, I am looking past the hype & to what is being done. Sure those parameters can be changed & short term performance enhanced - but to what degree will the long term performance suffer? There is a performance curve I like to consider - it is the one that relates how many lasted this long. If the factory criteria is 99% for 5 years & the bully is criteria is 95% for 2 years, of course you will get more power with the bully settings . . . . But that ain't apples to apples, is it? I'm not convinced it is a good thing based on the results of short term testing on limited test vehicles - especially when the results are measured with a "seat of the pants" dyno. I want at least 200,000 miles out of my stuff, so a single 10% test provides only trivia, not fact. The improved mileage claims need more data to firm up it's credibility too. Air temp, fuel energy density, load, speed, acceleration rates, etc. Again, not seat of the pants. . . . Yes, I am hard core for real data, not marketing or emotion. . . Removing the device after resetting things back to the OE defaults won't always save you. In the case of my buddy's tire smokin' ford F350 diesel, he always did that before taking it to the dealer. When he protested the huge repair bill, they showed him a print out that showed the time, date, & odometer mileage for EVERY change to the OE settings. Something bully denied possible at the time, but the printout was indeed accurate. I work for an industrial machine manufacturer - we do all we can to maintain our reputation for building great equipment - but when it is abused by the customer, why should we have to pay for their indiscretions & abuse? The stories & excuses we hear. . . . BTW, I am a believer that you can never have too much useable power . . . . (you can't use it if it breaks) (Message edited by kyle4501 on April 26, 2010) | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1883 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.71.157  Rating: N/A |
Starting in 2008 or 2009 GM model trucks,(may be off by a year or so), the computers will indicate a change in chip or programming history, and dealers are instructed to check this when performing warranty driveline services. Any changes will be recorded and can/will effect warranty coverage. Installing a chip or programmer will be recorded, if only installed for a short time. | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1884 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.71.157 Rating: N/A |
Starting in 2008 or 2009 GM model trucks,(may be off by a year or so), the computers will indicate a change in chip or programming history, and dealers are instructed to check this when performing warranty driveline services. Any changes will be recorded and can/will effect warranty coverage. Installing a chip or programmer will be recorded, if only installed for a short time. | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 1131 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.162.73.12 Rating: N/A |
Egads this can go on forever.... But it ain't; this is my last here, unless it's to post a link for the data BW wanted..... With that.... Kyle: You're putting a ton of weight on what you feel is the perfection of the manufacturers; of their: "well designed for the application" use and performance of their products. Both the GM 454 and the Ford 460 engines have been used extensively in motorhomes for years. Both engines suffer inherent exhaust manifold warpage and leaks, especially when used for application in the conformed area of a motorhome engine compartment. The solution is usually to use stainless steel headers and pipes, but GM (and Ford) refused (and refuses) to supply or use either. Another solution was to elongate the manifold's mounting holes, so the manifold could expand and contract without shearing the studs. Both manufacturers had neglected to listen to the "after market" crowd, and continued to manufacture in the same manner. The earlier models of the 454 engine used crankshaft supports that were inadequate for the engine's designed power. Thousands upon thousands remained being manufactured and sold until they finally changed the design. The original engines did not last for that 200,000 miles you'd like to see. In fact, with that old design, at around 60k you would be overdue for crankshaft bearings. How about the earlier models of the GM diesel engine for automotive application? You can probably name the year and model gas engine that was re-tooled for use as a diesel engine, right? It certainly was a fantastic manufacturing feat, to manage to stick it to as many customers they did, with an engine that wasn't fit to be used for the application they were using it for. So much for depending on the manufacturers to set standards. Ford Pinto gas tanks, Toyota ECM, Chrysler/Dodge caravan rear doors, Firestone SUV tires.... Both Edge and BD have engineers, technicians, and programmers that take great care to produce a product that won't cause harm... I'd put my trust in them, rather than the corporate giants that rely on "risk assessment" for their most cost effective route to their bottom line. For some reason Kyle, the smaller companies seem to actually give a crap about what they're producing..... You did say you work for one, didn't you.... Nice chatting wid youse.... | ||
| George M. Todd (George_todd)
Registered Member Username: George_todd Post Number: 1000 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 99.29.76.171 Rating: N/A |
I do need to ask one question here! If the product doesn't exceed any of the manufacturer's specs, what DOES it do? One of the horsepower increasing devices lies to the ECM and tells it that the fuel injection pressure is low. Then the ECM raises the pressure to compensate, which increases horsepower output. G | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
Registered Member Username: Kyle4501 Post Number: 569 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 65.23.106.193 Rating: |
One last kicking of this dust (there was a dead horse around here earlier. . . . . ) john, the way you argue both sides at the same time is difficult to keep up with. I don’t believe the big companies are infallible. I don’t believe in conspiracy theories either. I do believe the purpose of most (if not all) sales & marketing campaigns is to direct attention away from the real issues in order to focus your emotions so you’ll want to buy it. If the big companies make such crap that won't last & take every shortcut available, then how is it possible for some smaller company (with, by comparison, a tiny micro fraction of the R&D budget) make all those sins go away with a simple program change? You already pointed out what happened to the early BB chevys when used at the limits of rated power. The BB chevys that I have seen problems with were related to extreme use - which is what a 'chip' or 'reprogram' does; put the engine to a mode of extreme use. My first car was a '69 chevelle SS396, 4spd. I broke a few parts in the drive train 'having fun' while I was seriously abusing it well beyond extreme use. As a result, I studied failure mechanics & vehicle dynamics. I still flog my equipment from time to time, but ‘cycles to failure’ comes to mind EVERY time I do. BTW, I’ve had better long term success & fewer leaks with cast iron manifolds than with hedders. Good fuel injection & computer control has led to the 200k mile engines. I suppose you want us to believe that was another fluke from the big manufacturers? I believe there is only one motivator for why things are done - & that motivator is money! (There are rare exceptions, but even those are debatable.) Now, there are many, many ways to achieve that end of more money. They run the range from huge capital investments to sell large volumes, to smaller investments that sell smaller volumes. They also run the range from completely honest to absolute con. Yes, I do work for a small company, I have worked for big companies too, all in engineering . That is why I believe as I do. They are organized & run so differently that to try to compare them is apples to rocks. So, john, you can have a different standard for big vs. small companies. You can also continue to focus on a few short-comings of the big corporations (never mind the overwhelming majority of their successes) while disregarding the missteps of your current favorite smaller company if you like. As for me, I’ll continue to encourage others to look past the glossy marketing & political hype to see what is really going on. As I’ve said before – everything is a compromise. I have nothing against the programmers & chips, I think it is great that there are hotrodding choices available. However, I will challange/ take exception when someone says a product will increase power without negative effects. I put my trust in God, all others pay in cash. |
