| Author | Message | ||
| christopher l cole sr. (Muziklvr)
Registered Member Username: Muziklvr Post Number: 90 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 69.171.173.168 Rating: N/A |
hey guys just looking for opinions here.just bought a car dollie from a guy.it has electric brakes,but he said he never used them.he towed it behind a 33ft motorhome pulling a buick.said he never knew it was behind him( both pulling or stopping).when he found out i was pulling it with the 4104 he said i should have no probs towing even with out the elec brakes hooked up. what do you guys think?especially 4104 owners. have or do any of you pull a dollie with out electric brakes?????? | ||
| John & Barb Tesser (Bigrigger)
Registered Member Username: Bigrigger Post Number: 409 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 96.42.5.35  Rating: N/A |
I have pulled vehicles on a dolly and 4-down with my 4107 and with the MC5 without any additional brakes and have had no trouble. I think in the archives they talked about some states requiring added brakes for any towed weight over a certain size. John | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 1092 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.44  Rating: N/A |
Most states require supplemental braking for something as heavy as a car, and usually a break-away device as well. Here is a graphical overview of state laws: http://www.brakebuddy.com/Towing-Laws And here it is in tabular form: http://www.towingworld.com/articles/TowingLaws.htm Bottom line, if you travel across state lines with your car in tow, you will almost certainly need brakes and a break-away system. Without it you can not only be cited and fined, but also forced to stop and unhook until you are out of the state. Moreover, if your failure to install such a system is implicated in an accident, you can be liable for severe civil and criminal penalties, up to and including imprisonment. FWIW. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| christopher l cole sr. (Muziklvr)
Registered Member Username: Muziklvr Post Number: 91 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 69.171.173.156 Rating: N/A |
i have the proper break away safety device that engages the brakes in the event of an accident(this works weather the dollie is wired or not i have been told.my concern was if the 4104 had enough brakes for it or not.they will damn near throw ya thru the windsheild with out a trailer now if ya aint carful. | ||
| Jim Wilke (Jim Bob) (Pd41044039)
Registered Member Username: Pd41044039 Post Number: 488 Registered: 2-2001 Posted From: 65.15.106.226 Rating: N/A |
I have towed both with a dolly and 4 wheels down with our 4104. A VW Jetta and an Explorer. It's hard to tell they are back there. I can't feel a difference on braking. I do disconnect & drive the toad when going up or down big grades (We have a 4 mile, 8% grade to get to/from our home.) for safety but I have done grades like that towing before. The 4104 needs more help going up than coming down. If your brakes nealy put you through the windshield then somebody put a truck brake valve in. The bus brakes are pretty gentle. (The bus valve modulates the application for passenger comfort.) | ||
| Patrick levenson (Zubzub)
Registered Member Username: Zubzub Post Number: 223 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 174.91.228.43  Rating: N/A |
towed my van with my '04....didn't really notice it back there, braking or climbing. When pulling a car/tow dolly with my van I like having surge brakes or something on there, but don't think I would need them with the'04 That being said, I would probably set it up anyhow if I had it.....never heard of anyone having too much brakes..... | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1903 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.71.157  Rating: N/A |
My father use to tow a Olds Ciera with a transmission pump behind the 4104 pre turbo. He switched to smaller cars later, as he didn't like that much extra weight in an emergency stop. He later ran Chevette, then two different Geo Metro's. The problem with toters or dollys is that they are nearly impossible to back up with, in the way at a camp site, pita to load and ratchet up. With brakes on a toter, you still have half a vehicle not braking. Also, just something else to maintain. He used a universal A-frame tow bar and had son fab attachment brackets to any of the cars.When just used for short local trips at destinations, he would swing a-frame vertical and lock with a pin or bolt. He used this for tens of thousands miles with no issues with the setup. There are also nice factory made tow bars and brackets, although salty in price;stowmaster and others. | ||
| David Guglielmetti (Daveg)
Registered Member Username: Daveg Post Number: 163 Registered: 2-2009 Posted From: 71.139.247.230  Rating: N/A |
If there are any questions on break-a-way systems, call me and I can go over them...it is one of the things we do at work. www.reddingtrailer.com ask for dave g | ||
| Bruce Henderson (Oonrahnjay)
Registered Member Username: Oonrahnjay Post Number: 541 Registered: 8-2004 Posted From: 149.168.204.4  Rating: N/A |
Dave, one thing we can discuss here. I sure have lots of things that I can do with a thousand and a half dollars -- is there a good, lower-cost alternative to "BrakeBuddy"? Thanks, BH NC USA | ||
| gary throneberry (Garhawk)
Registered Member Username: Garhawk Post Number: 37 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 24.158.154.247 Rating: N/A |
Look Henderson, That's the problem with our economy today: not enough currency floating around for those of us in dire need. Folks like you bag up the money, pull the draw-string tight and, never let go. Go ahead and buy that "Brake Buddy". Help get the wealth redistributed. | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 1150 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.162.75.94  Rating: N/A |
Used Brake buddys: http://orlando.craigslist.org/rvs/1748576884.html There's a ton more all over: Search all CraigsLists for Brake Buddy | ||
| Ralph Peters (Ralph7)
Registered Member Username: Ralph7 Post Number: 122 Registered: 3-2004 Posted From: 75.225.51.84 Rating: N/A |
I purchased a air brake system, including the break a way, used on E place, for under $300.00. But I needed to buy a 1/4 disconnect for bus. Yes it was shopping, looking on 3 different lists, E place , Craigs, Hitch trader, then in March in Apache Junction at a yard sale seen a used BB for $600.00, but I had my air brake. | ||
| Bruce Henderson (Oonrahnjay)
Registered Member Username: Oonrahnjay Post Number: 542 Registered: 8-2004 Posted From: 149.168.204.4 Rating: N/A |
Gary, I untied the string and what did I find? No wealth in there to be re-distributed! Maybe when I gits my gummint mule, I kin trade it in on Brake Buddy. | ||
| Patrick levenson (Zubzub)
Registered Member Username: Zubzub Post Number: 228 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 174.91.225.176 Rating: N/A |
Bruce you're living large!!!! You still have a bag! And a string!  | ||
| Len Silva (Lsilva)
Registered Member Username: Lsilva Post Number: 363 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 72.187.35.208  Rating: N/A |
You could build your own as fred Hobe has done http://users.cwnet.com/~thall/fredhobe3.htm | ||
| Bruce Henderson (Oonrahnjay)
Registered Member Username: Oonrahnjay Post Number: 543 Registered: 8-2004 Posted From: 149.168.204.4 Rating: N/A |
Patrick - wouldn't you know it, a letter came in the mail from the IRS this AM. They're really frosted at me because I didn't declare the string on my '09 taxes. They've demanded that I send them the string and for the interest and penalty, they want the bag, too. Oh, well, I'ze still waitin fer my Gummint Mule! Len - Thanks for that link. I have an air cylinder sitting around (took it off an air-controlled door). I think I can build one like Fred's for less than $50. I'll add a microswitch on the pedal for a warning light to let me know if it's been triggered by a "breadaway" (or other problem). | ||
| Patrick levenson (Zubzub)
Registered Member Username: Zubzub Post Number: 229 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 174.91.225.176 Rating: N/A |
Might as well rig it for breakaway while you are at it. Some kind of aux air tank that applies the brake if there is a pressure failure. At least that's what I would do. Of course that would require a second air line for the aux tank/pressure monitoring. There is probably an easier way o do it. Maybe when the electrical disconnects it trips the break away. | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 1093 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.38 Rating: |
Fred Hobe's system is dangerous and illegal, and I have been telling him that for years. First off, there is no breakaway system. Almost every state that requires trailer brakes also requires a breakaway, and some states, such as New Jersey, require a breakaway system even if service brakes themselves are not required. Secondly, air lines that transit from tractor (the bus) to trailer are required to be protected. If the trailer breaks away, ripping the air hose in half, you now have the service brake line open to atmosphere, reducing your braking power substantially and also significantly reducing the amount of braking time available (since air will be venting from the brake tanks at an enormous rate when the brakes are applied). If a mountain grade is what caused the breakaway in the first place, this could be a fatal catastrophe. Please don't implement Fred's system -- you could kill someone, possibly yourself. His system is worse than no auxilliary brakes at all. If you want to use air for your auxilliary brakes, do it right. Get a tractor protection valve, a relay valve, and two glad hands. Put a tank in the toad, and a fail-safe actuator that applies the brakes when the glad-hands separate. And don't forget to calibrate the system -- over-braking the toad is all too easy with any air-operated system. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| Jack Conrad (Jackconrad)
Registered Member Username: Jackconrad Post Number: 1295 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 71.71.3.170  Rating: N/A |
Sean, I realize that glad hand connectors are by far the safest means of connecting an air line between the coach & toad. However, so far, I have never seen them used on any RV (conversion or S&S). Do they make a smaller version than those used on semi's? Why 2 glad hands? My M&G only requires one air line from the coach. This supplies both toad service braking and fills the break-a-way tank (via a one way valve). The break-a-way function is controlled by a solenoid operated via the break-a-way switch. Jack | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 1094 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.38 Rating: N/A |
Jack, I suggest glad-hands for two reasons: first, they are an industry standard -- you can get glad-hand fittings at any truck stop, etc.. Second, they are intended to break away safely, without ripping the hoses. That said, there are other break-away air connectors that could be used as an alternative. But, again, there is no standardization for these other connectors. I suggest two lines for more or less the same reason that trucks use that system. That gives you not only quick fill on the release or break-away tank, but also automatic emergency application -- when you put the coach into emergency (manually or automatically) the trailer will also go into emergency. However, it is possible to use a single-line system if you have a different type of actuator for the break-away, such as a pin-pull wire or whatever. On a two-line system, the separation of the emergency/supply line causes emergency brake application, whereas on a single-line system you need to have some other mechanism. Also, on a single-line system, the emergency tank must be filled from the service brakes, so you will need to make several service brake applications to "charge" the tank; in a properly designed system, the brakes should only release after the tank is fully charged. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| Len Silva (Lsilva)
Registered Member Username: Lsilva Post Number: 364 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 72.187.35.208 Rating: N/A |
Sean, Theoretically, I agree with you but several commercial systems including M&G tie directly into the rear wheel brake line. Someone on one of these boards did a test with a 1/4" line teed into the rear brake and open to the atmosphere with little effect on braking. Basically, they just plugged an open male air line connector into the brake line. Don't remember who it was, perhaps Jack Conrad. If I were doing such a system I would tie it into the tag axle brakes. I don't have towed brakes at all and with a 3500 lb car I'm not concerned. If I did add towed brakes, I would design them so that they did not operate at all unless they are really needed in a hard stop. I have seen a lot of smoking towed brakes on cars and trailers under a normal stop. | ||
| Ralph Peters (Ralph7)
Registered Member Username: Ralph7 Post Number: 123 Registered: 3-2004 Posted From: 75.199.170.60 Rating: N/A |
My RoadMaster system is similar to Jack's, it uses a 1/4in. (single line) and a quick disconnect that is mounted solid. If is breaks away,tares the line no air leaks if QD stays put, mine is in bumper. Also I used tag axle air. | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 1095 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.43 Rating: |
I see lots of commercially available aftermarket vehicle items that are unsafe and do not conform to regulations, for example HID conversion kits. Aftermarket manufacturers get away with this because there is little oversight of accessories at either the federal or state level. The rules, BTW, are codified in federal law, specifically Title 49 of the Code of Federal Regulations, section 571.121 (49CFR571.121 for short) otherwise known as Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard (FMVSS) 121. Unprotected tees off service brake lines are unlikely to cause a huge problem because those regulations governing OEM air brake systems require these systems to work even when a single service line is open to atmosphere. (Read the standards here: http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2003/octqtr/pdf/49cfr571.121.pdf) However, relying on this provision for a deliberate modification to an approved air brake system is, IMO, not the safest course. There is no question that service brake performance would be degraded in the event of a service line separation. Moreover, the rules also require that the parking brake control on the bus also actuate the brakes on the trailer, and I just don't see how these systems can meet this requirement. (See link, above.) To me, the brakes are the second single most important system on the bus (after steering), and I just can't see taking chances with a system I could be trusting my life to in an emergency. JMO, FWIW, YMMV, etc. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1260 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.244.145.43 Rating: N/A |
Sigh..... 8>) RCB | ||
| clint hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 625 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.238.13  Rating: N/A |
... I say the toilet is just as important as the steering & brakes. Never leave home without either. If it ain't "up to code" it ain't insured & could be taken off the road. If someone gets killed because it wasn't legal, it is criminal negligence causing death and they do check this stuff in after a serious accident, long before you have a chance to prove your not the one that caused the accident. | ||
| Jack Conrad (Jackconrad)
Registered Member Username: Jackconrad Post Number: 1296 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 71.71.3.170 Rating: N/A |
We connected our M&G to our tag axle brake line (using a Tee and a 1/4" quick connect coupling). I also added a pressure switch to the top of the M&G. This switch is connected to a flashing red LED on the coach dash. Before moving, I make a hard brake application and hold for 5-8 seconds. This allows the DD3 parking brake to release as well as charges the breakaway tank on the toad. The flashing LED tells me the M&G is working. The LED also tells me if the toad brakes should not release or be applied by the breakaway system while towing. A normal stop only uses about 10-20 PSI brake application pressure, a quick stop uses about 30-40, and a panic stop uses about 60-75. When I first installed the system, I was concerned about what would happen if the 1/4" air line should fail. I inserted an open 1/4" male quick connect into the female fitting installed on the coach, then went for a drive. I had no problem making any number of stops from "normal" stops to hard panic stops. This was all on flat land (ain't got no steep downgrades in south Florida). YMMV, just my way, Jack | ||
| Bruce Henderson (Oonrahnjay)
Registered Member Username: Oonrahnjay Post Number: 544 Registered: 8-2004 Posted From: 149.168.204.4 Rating: N/A |
Sean wrote: "If you want to use air for your auxilliary brakes, do it right. Get a tractor protection valve, a relay valve, and two glad hands. Put a tank in the toad, and a fail-safe actuator that applies the brakes when the glad-hands separate. And don't forget to calibrate the system -- over-braking the toad is all too easy with any air-operated system." Yes, that's pretty much what I was thinking (if a "gladhand" is a connector that automatically shuts off the flow of air when it's disconnected). The air ram that I have is a double acting unit; I was planning a positive air actuation/disactuation arrangement. And I was also thinking a coiled metal cable for the breakaway signal; thus in the event of breakaway, the cable would pull the disconnect and not rely on the air line. Would this be permissible/preferred? I was thinking that the cable would also trip a warning light/horn at the driver's position. I hadn't completed my full design plan but I was planning all the items that you discussed in your post. One other question, would a portable pressure tank (to apply the brake air in the event of a breakaway) be allowable? I was planning a small tank like a 1-gallon Freon tank - that would be enough for an emergency application. | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 1151 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.162.75.23 Rating: |
christopher l cole sr. (Muziklvr) asks: "hey guys just looking for opinions here.just bought a car dollie from a guy.it has electric brakes,but he said he never used them." "he said i should have no probs towing even with out the elec brakes hooked up. what do you guys think?" ==================== § 571.121 Standard No. 121; Air brake systems S3. Application. This standard applies to trucks, buses, and trailers equipped with air brake systems. However, it does not apply to: (g) Any load divider dolly. S4. Definitions. Load divider dolly means a trailer composed of a trailer chassis and one or more axles, with no solid bed, body, or container attached, and which is designed exclusively to support a portion of the load on a trailer or truck excluded from all the requirements of this standard. ===================== I'd say it's better to have than to have not, since any extra item for safety isn't all bad...... however.... I towed a full caravan behind a fully loaded 33' Winnebago, and a 37' Georgie-Boy, without a problem. Your bus was more than capable of stopping with a full capacity of seated passengers, along with the maximum amount of standees, and all the luggage (of all the passengers) inside the bus, and in the luggage compartments...... Your bus is far from it's maximum weight capacity; I doubt you would even notice the weight of the towed vehicle. I certainly had no trouble stopping with the combination I had, and that was with a "stick and staple" POS tow vehicle already over it's maximum capacity when you fill the tanks..... Driving a vehicle while it's carrying more than it's capacity is illegal in most states, yet no-one to date has attempted to petition the government for more stringent control and policing of the entire RV industry, or the folks that have been driving the things for the past 50 years.... go figger.. If you don't have a brakes for the towed vehicle or a trailer, and you're lacking a breakaway brake system as well, use good tow chains or tow cables rated for the capacity. Watch out for the other nuts out there, too; There's quite a few~! . (Message edited by john_mc9 on May 27, 2010) | ||
| christopher l cole sr. (Muziklvr)
Registered Member Username: Muziklvr Post Number: 94 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 69.171.173.57 Rating: N/A |
thanks to all that posted on this topic. i really appreciate all the imput. i was worried about not having the elec brakes wired before the trip. everyone has put my mind at ease. | ||
| Moe Hollow (Moehollow)
Registered Member Username: Moehollow Post Number: 101 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 71.102.27.164 Rating: N/A |
Just a note. The Brake Buddy chart listed earlier is quoting the requirements for towing a trailer, not a toad. For example, it lists California as having a 1500# limit. That is for trailers (of course, a dolly is a trailer). Anyway, the other link Sean posted differentiates between the two. For a toad, CA requires, "Brakes must be sufficient to stop within a specified distance according to weight, at 20 mph." Many states appear to have aux brake requirements for trailers and none for toads. | ||
| Len Silva (Lsilva)
Registered Member Username: Lsilva Post Number: 365 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 72.187.35.208 Rating: N/A |
I do believe that in most jurisdictions, if you tow a car behind a motor home, the car becomes a trailer. Now, that may not be true in California, I don't know. | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 1100 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 72.171.0.149 Rating: N/A |
Use caution in interpreting the "towed cars" section of that chart. In most states, a car towed 4-down is considered a trailer and all the trailer laws apply. That's probably most of the ones listed as "no laws regarding" -- it just means nothing specific to towed cars is spelled out. There are a handful of states that treat towed cars differently, and those are the ones that have something different listed in that column. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| ED Hackenbruch (Shadowman)
Registered Member Username: Shadowman Post Number: 287 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 75.230.47.57 Rating: |
If you just put brakes on anything that you tow, you will be legal everywhere, and not have to worry about getting fined or sued. | ||
| Moe Hollow (Moehollow)
Registered Member Username: Moehollow Post Number: 102 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 71.102.27.164 Rating: N/A |
Some added information. I spoke to the commercial division of the CHP. They said that a trailer above 1500# requires auxiliary braking. A toad, on the other hand, requires auxiliary brakes only when it is above 3000#. Here' the catch though--they go by the manufacturer's maximum weight rating for the vehicle. Hence, a Geo Tracker weighing 2000#, may have a maximum weight rating of 3200# and need an aux brake. The officer said that basically the only vehicles that do not need an aux brake would be an old VW Bug or Geo/Chevy Sprint. | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1912 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.71.157 Rating: N/A |
you could tow a Smart car; it won't be over 3000gvw. I'd install casters on the roof though. The first time a semi passes in opposite direction, it'll probably be flipped onto it's roof. | ||
| ED Hackenbruch (Shadowman)
Registered Member Username: Shadowman Post Number: 288 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 75.230.51.24 Rating: N/A |
Better put them on both sides too, just in case it doesn't go all of the ways over. :>) |
