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R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member
Username: Chuckllb
Post Number: 1265
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 75.242.144.84
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 01, 2010 - 10:45 pm: | |
For years I have been using a Trace 2012 inverter connected to house and start batteries. Recently I have had fuse problems on the coach starter system (100 amp-/250 volt as designed by the mfgr of the coach).
The generator (6500 Onan)charged house batteries (5 Group 27 deep cycle) and has always charged the starts (3 Group 31 Start) at the same time.
Last week we were on a trip to the NM Mountains and had a problem starting the coach. Turns out the 100 amp fuse was blown....replaced/ blown, etc etc. Got it home and began the "chase". Funny thing, the Jake went out as well....but came back on. ALSO....new problem, as I recall, the fuse block, a blade type, read 12.5 volts at both ends of the block, even though the fuse was out....
After checking the ignition and Jake switches ( all OK) I decided to start at the batteries and see if I had some how mis-wired after the last service a few weeks ago.
Bottom line... I unhooked all connections to the coach and started basically from scratch. I now have the fuse block hot at one end, as I understand it should be...and have re-connected all as SEPARATE systems. House completely disconnected from Start, with inverter, charging house only; Per the Trace Manual, HOUSE ARE NOT grounded to the chassis or to the starts....only to the inverter.....BUT
....when generator is started, both sets charge....also...when the starts are charged by a battery charger(from shore power), the house batteries also charge!!! ( must be a grounding situation somewhere, right?)
A few years ago we had discussion on this board about connecting inverter charged (3 stage) batteries to chassis ground. I have, at the suggestion of some on this forum, always kept a chassis ground to the house batteries. Upon re-reading the Trace manual, they emphatically (BOLD PRINT)state the batteries, charged by (and of course fed to) the inverter, are not to be connected to chassis (negative); that the grounding comes via the inverter (which itself is grounded to the chassis.
BIG question......Xactly HOW is an inverter to be wired to the batteries. WHEN one wants to charge BOTH house and starts from a generator? The starts are chassis ground and there-in,,,folks...lies the dilemma. I would REALLY like to be able to charge both....not necessarily at the same time.
Perfectly clear, right?.... and thanx, you EE's, in advance.
I hope to leave again on Thursday AM....for the Mountains... it's hot in the third world (100+  )
All input appreciated!!
RCB |
Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member
Username: Sean
Post Number: 1102
Registered: 1-2003
Posted From: 67.142.130.17
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 01, 2010 - 10:51 pm: | |
Chuck,
Something does not ring true here.
There is no reason at all why the house batteries should not be frame grounded at the battery negative post, and, in fact, I would be emphatic about doing exactly that.
Can you post a diagram here of your setup? Even a rough sketch would be helpful. If you have no way to post a sketch, you can fax it to me.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com |
R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member
Username: Chuckllb
Post Number: 1266
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 75.242.144.84
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 01, 2010 - 11:05 pm: | |
Thanx, Sean...I'll do it, but it will be Manana, OK?...meantime, Trace Manual 2012 shows it (no chassis grounding)...I haven't been able to find it on line, but perhaps you will do better at that than I. I'll post that as well.
Thanx, again!
RCB |
Jim Smith (Jpsmith)
Registered Member
Username: Jpsmith
Post Number: 5
Registered: 1-2001
Posted From: 108.0.179.150
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 02, 2010 - 12:02 am: | |
Here is the manual link
http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/458/docserve.aspx
Sean is correct that normally the house batteries would normally be connected to frame ground. But the RV 2012 inverter has a current shunt connected from the inverter negative to the inverter ground terminal. Although the inverter will function with the batteries grounded, the inverter current monitoring functions will not. See page 22 of the manual. So the inverter should be connected as shown in the manual. I have had a RV 2512 connect this way for over 10 years without problems. |
Jack Conrad (Jackconrad)
Registered Member
Username: Jackconrad
Post Number: 1299
Registered: 12-2000
Posted From: 71.71.3.170
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 02, 2010 - 8:40 am: | |
Since your system worked OK as installed until recently, I assume it was not an installation problem. Since the fuse blew, it must be a component failure. Possibly the shunt in the inverter? |
R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member
Username: Chuckllb
Post Number: 1267
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 75.243.77.156
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 02, 2010 - 8:55 am: | |
Thanx for that information, Jim...I sent Sean an email with the information he requested. I don't have a monitor hooked to the inverter; have always read via digital meter (one each for house and starts).
Jack... my "conclusion" as well, however, it is the coach start fuse (100 amp) that kept blowing. Batteries were very low so charged them over night...will attempt again this am.
Also, I put in a new fuse after my "makeover" yesterday and to this point it remains intact. Keeping my fingers crossed. Inverter seems to work as it should.
Thanx for the input....keep it coming!
RCB |
George M. Todd (George_todd)
Registered Member
Username: George_todd
Post Number: 1026
Registered: 8-2006
Posted From: 99.172.181.44
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 02, 2010 - 12:06 pm: | |
Chuck,
1. See Sean's first sentence, "Something doesn't ring true here." I echo that loudly!
2. A 100 Amp fuse in a 12 Volt starting circuit is too small. Period! No way we are going to start a 6 cylinder diesel engine on 12 volts with 100 Amps! (You do mention 3 Group 31 batteries in parallel, and they are rated ABOUT 750 cold crank Amps EACH, to supply start current.
3. Your inverter grounds the house batteries internally, so they don't need to be frame grounded. (Most of us would like to see them frame grounded for simplicity, and standard connections, but the inverter does it with a BIG ground cable, right?)
4. I assume your comment about "both ends of the start fuse hot," meant 12 Volts to ground on both fuse clips, with no fuse installed? If so it indicates two things: One, a wiring error, and two, probably the reason the 100 amp starting fuse never blew before, because it never had full starting current thru it. See #1 above again, please.
5. I remember previous posts on isolators, and the fact that you have removed yours, for non-specified troubles, and a lack of satisfaction?
6. What starts your gen? If it is the chassis batts, it explains a lot. The inverter charges your house batts, via 120 VAC, and the gen charges the start batts by its own 12 VDC charging circuit. The inverter charges the house batts via 120 VAC while on shore also.
7. I am NOT insinuating a lack of veracity on your part, I just don't think it is all wired the way you think it is!!! Please, take this as helpful with humor!
8. The factory manual may say START on the 100 Amp fuse in question, but it is either missing a zero, (I'm serious) 1000, or it doesn't protect the actual high current starting circuit, only the solenoid coil and the "ignition" circuit. (If it is supposed to be a 1000 Amp fuse, the clips would be bigger, and a 100 amp fuse wouldn' fit...)
9. It's not a grounding issue, it's a positive connection issue.
Happy hunting, and I won't call the game warden.
G |
Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member
Username: Sean
Post Number: 1103
Registered: 1-2003
Posted From: 72.171.0.147
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 02, 2010 - 1:03 pm: | |
Chuck,
OK, yes, the RV2012 does have an internal shunt, which means the batteries must be connected as shown in their diagram. Just to be clear, when done this way, the only thing between the battery negative post and frame ground will be the shunt, which is nothing more than a low value, high current resistor. Its only purpose is for measuring battery state-of-charge, and it will not otherwise impact operation, nor can it be the source of your problems.
I got your drawing, but I did not see in there any connection between the two battery systems. Also, your drawing only shows a single connection on the AC side, which I assume is the input. So if I understand your drawing correctly, the only thing connected to the batteries is the inverter.
I am assuming, though, that you also have DC-powered house items, and you have not shown how those are connected. In order to diagnose the issue of hot on both sides of the fuse, I'd need to see more of the DC wiring involved. For example, are the house batteries also being used to start the genny? Do you have solar panels or any other charge source? Is there any kind of connection to the house batteries at all from the alternator?
In your OP you mention that the generator is charging the house and start batteries simultaneously. If that's done with only a single charger, then there must be a connection between the two banks, at least when the charger is running. So we'd need to get to the bottom of where that connection is and how it is wired. If there are separate chargers for the two banks then it is not an issue.
Again, just to be clear -- this is not a problem with "grounding" as you speculated, but rather these connections must be in the "hot" or positive side. The grounds are ultimately all connected together through the frame (yes, even the house batteries, which are only separated by a metal bar).
Lastly, I'd need to see exactly where you've located your fuses and which ones were blown.
If you did not run all these wires yourself, then you have some tracing to do before you can make yourself a decent sketch of how it all goes together. If the wires are not all fully visible, then you might have to invest in a tone tracer, available at most hardware stores.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com |
Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member
Username: Sean
Post Number: 1104
Registered: 1-2003
Posted From: 72.171.0.147
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 02, 2010 - 1:16 pm: | |
quote:A 100 Amp fuse in a 12 Volt starting circuit is too small. Period! No way we are going to start a 6 cylinder diesel engine on 12 volts with 100 Amps!
George, there is no fuse at all in the starter circuit (nor is there on almost any vehicle ever made).
The 100 amp fuse he is talking about activates the starter solenoid, which, as you know, in turn activates the starter itself. The starter is wired directly to the batteries.
I have the factory diagram that Chuck sent, and it definitely calls for a 100 amp fuse. The diagram is not complete, but it would appear that this is the master fuse for the DC circuits. The starter, alternator, and battery are all on one side of it, and the starter solenoid and various other circuits are on the other side.
So lots of things might have blown this fuse. We need to track down where, if anyplace, the chassis and house systems are interconnected to see if it is this connection that was responsible for the overload.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com |
George M. Todd (George_todd)
Registered Member
Username: George_todd
Post Number: 1027
Registered: 8-2006
Posted From: 99.172.181.44
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 02, 2010 - 1:28 pm: | |
Sean,
Do me a favor, and read my item #2 and my item #8 please. Then read Chuck's post which definitely says "START" fuse.
All I ever posted is obvious that it CAN'T be in "the high current starting circuit."
George |
Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member
Username: Sean
Post Number: 1105
Registered: 1-2003
Posted From: 72.171.0.147
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 02, 2010 - 1:45 pm: | |
George, please don't get testy. I did read your entire post.
Chuck did not say or imply that this fuse was in the high-current starting circuit, merely that it was involved in starting.
Neither did I say anything you wrote was incorrect. I simply pointed out that starters don't have fuses. Your own post suggests that you may not have known that, and probably neither do many other readers. Also that the 100-amp fuse was, as you wrote, in a different part of the circuit.
If my post came across as anything other than explanatory, I apologize. It was not meant to have any tone other than flat.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com |
R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member
Username: Chuckllb
Post Number: 1268
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 75.243.77.156
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 02, 2010 - 1:54 pm: | |
So here is an update...not ignoring any of the postings...just bringing you up to date.
Attempted to start the coach, but batteries still low...I just this morning purchased three group 31, 830 cranking amps (each) wired in parallel. Still will not start...tries, but turns it over only once....just like a nearly dead battery.
The new fuse did not blow....I.m getting a reading of 12.65 thru to the solenoid. I do not know the first thing about how solenoids act (react)if they go bad. This one appears to be an original (46 years ago). BTW...cant start from the engine compartment either.
How is a solenoid best checked? I turned on the ignition switch, but master push button is between them...ideas? Solenoid is far away from push button.
George....i had wondered the same about the size, but hesitate to go larger since that is MFGR OE, as shown on the schematic.
I have chased about everything, but am going to stick with it. Glad ( I think) to hear it is not a grounding issue...that eliminates 50% of the work.....theoretically.
Thanx for the continued "help) |
Jim Wilke (Jim Bob) (Pd41044039)
Registered Member
Username: Pd41044039
Post Number: 493
Registered: 2-2001
Posted From: 184.0.3.170
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 02, 2010 - 3:08 pm: | |
R.C. I think you are going to need a helper. Maybe you can check the starter amp draw with one of those ammeters you place on the cable.
If you have 3 group 31s you should have plenty of power. I have that rig starting an 8V92T.
Assuming the batteries are even mostly charged the engine should spin right over. Others may have additional ideas but here's my list of possibilities.
Bad ground or other large cable connection.
Bad solenoid and/or starter.
Engine problem, really hard to turn due to water in cylinder or partial siezing. (bar the engine over with a wrench to make sure it turns more than 360 degrees with relative ease.)
Transmission or accessory problem causing similar resistance to rotation.
One or more defective batteries in new set (never overlook what "can't possibly be faulty".
I think I have listed these in best order of priority. I suspect a bad starter/solenoid. |
R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member
Username: Chuckllb
Post Number: 1269
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 75.243.77.156
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 02, 2010 - 3:16 pm: | |
Now to answer some of your questions:
Sean wrote:
"I got your drawing, but I did not see in there any connection between the two battery systems. Also, your drawing only shows a single connection on the AC side, which I assume is the input. So if I understand your drawing correctly, the only thing connected to the batteries is the inverter."
The only connection would be a ground connection as you have eluded to....no positive connection in the battery compartment...
Sean wrote:
"I am assuming, though, that you also have DC-powered house items, and you have not shown how those are connected. In order to diagnose the issue of hot on both sides of the fuse, I'd need to see more of the DC wiring involved. For example, are the house batteries also being used to start the genny? Do you have solar panels or any other charge source? Is there any kind of connection to the house batteries at all from the alternator?"
House bats are in no way connected to the start system...and , far as I know, no DC items other than solenoid, ignition switches,starter,etc are affected by the fuse in question (100 amp),...
Yes, 2 solar panels, 10 watts...each charging a single set. The generator previously charged both sets, as well, via the inverter. I now have it set to charge house only.
NOTE:
The previous setup (worked for years)was, both sets fed thru one alternator. Inverter also charged both sets, my presumption wa thru the common positive alternator connection; also, the house set was chassis grounded, as are the starts.
I have, as you saw on the drawing I sent you, now separated the sets...no known connection of any kind outside of the chassis grounded inverter.
ONLY THE 100 amp fuse has blown three of them, prior to my making the changes noted.....all others throughout the coach are good.
The generator is started by it's own battery, in no way connected to the other sets.
Sean wrote:
"If you did not run all these wires yourself, then you have some tracing to do before you can make yourself a decent sketch of how it all goes together. If the wires are not all fully visible, then you might have to invest in a tone tracer, available at most hardware stores."
I have run all wiring except as the coach wa originally setup...no changes to that....plus remember, it worked for me for all these years.
One thing comes to mind on our recent trip...the coach got awfully hot (210) and the Jake quit for a bit (don't know if iot is working now since I have not been able to start the engine) and the fuse blew...upon restart attempts same story...fuse blew.
Still working oon it!
RCB |
R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member
Username: Chuckllb
Post Number: 1270
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 75.243.77.156
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 02, 2010 - 4:14 pm: | |
"jumped" the solenoid...direct to starter cable...same thing; turns over once and stops.
And re-connected the chassis ground to the house batts...no blown fuse.
Starter???? guess I'll find out shortly. Sure hate to take it off and not find the problem.
2nd Monday this week....
RCB |
Len Silva (Lsilva)
Registered Member
Username: Lsilva
Post Number: 366
Registered: 12-2000
Posted From: 72.187.35.208
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 02, 2010 - 5:12 pm: | |
quote:"jumped" the solenoid...direct to starter cable...same thing; turns over once and stops.
Difficult without a helper but you need to check the starter current when this happens. If the current remains high then it's either the starter or a mechanical problem in the engine. If it does not remain high then it's electrical, probably a bad connection somewhere, and probably on the ground side.
If you are alone, do you have a voltmeter or a lamp on the coach battery circuit that you can watch when this happens? If the volts go low and stay there, it's a starter problem, if not, it's an electrical problem.
How does the negative side of the battery get to the engine/starter? If the connection from the engine to the frame is bad, it can cause all kinds of strange problems. |
R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member
Username: Chuckllb
Post Number: 1271
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 75.243.77.156
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 02, 2010 - 5:32 pm: | |
Jim:
Can't figure exactly how I can hand turn the engine. Mine is amidships, pancake style (laid over on it's side); just nothing on either end I can see that would allow it.
Len:
...just took all electrical connections loose at the starter...cleaned them and tried again,...same thing....strong over once, then stops.
Yes I have been using a volt meter but don't have a third hand and am alone so can't tell xactly what is going on during the process. ...tenacity, right? Since we had a new starter put in in 2004, I just can't understand why it would be bad with so few thousand miles on it...less than 20 for sure. If temps are low (40 and lower) I use either for an easy fast start (not squirting till the starter is turning over)
That starter is going to be a bugger to get out of there, not to mention how it will be getting it back in ;mounted high between a bay back and the engine, over a large lube filter....
RCB |
Len Silva (Lsilva)
Registered Member
Username: Lsilva
Post Number: 368
Registered: 12-2000
Posted From: 72.187.35.208
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 02, 2010 - 8:29 pm: | |
Can you use some jumper cables and connect directly from the neg post of the batteries to the frame of the starter?
I still suspect a bad ground somewhere. |
Jim Wilke (Jim Bob) (Pd41044039)
Registered Member
Username: Pd41044039
Post Number: 494
Registered: 2-2001
Posted From: 184.0.3.170
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 02, 2010 - 8:39 pm: | |
So Chuck, is that a 6-71? If so, does it have the fan mounted on the end of the crankshaft like a GM 4104? If so, you can turn that. If not, there should be a nut that you can get a wrench on. No noise from the engine when it stops turning, like clank? Does it stop abruptly always at the same spot or different places? (Different places would suggest starter vs engine.) Can you chase the ground path and feel for a hot connection? (Be careful, it can be real hot.) If you find one or more, clean & repair. You know, if that fuse somehow tried to be the ground path for the starter it would pop in a heartbeat!
My money is on a bad connection. |
Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member
Username: Sean
Post Number: 1106
Registered: 1-2003
Posted From: 72.171.0.148
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 02, 2010 - 10:34 pm: | |
Sounds like there are two (or more) different things going on here.
The 100-amp fuse would have nothing to do with the starter "lugging" if it is wired as shown in the diagram. So something else is causing that to blow.
If the starter does not crank the engine when the solenoid is bypassed completely, then I agree with the other posts here, it is one of:
1. Bad starter
2. Engine problem, or
3. Poor wiring or connections from battery to starter.
Of these, actually #3 is most likely. Check, clean, and tighten all connections between the batteries and the starter and try it again.
If you can find a Hall-effect meter (clamp-on DC ammeter), you can measure the current drawn by the starter during cranking, which should give us more of a clue.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com |
R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member
Username: Chuckllb
Post Number: 1272
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 75.243.77.156
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 02, 2010 - 10:51 pm: | |
No, Jim...it is a Cummins 220 (turbo). I can tell you that the starter itself was hot...(warm).
Sean, as I stated earlier, the connections were cleaned at the starter and at the batteries. Have not "loosed" other connections, i.e. the solenoid, circuit breakers etc...since, when last shut down, the engine was at normal idle, it is doubtful (I hope ) that the engine is the problem.
At this point I am guessing the starter....oh woe...and have begun to dismantle. BTW...there is a good tutorial on the web:
http://www.truckt.com ...Heavy Duty Truck Starters Explained.
Pray for me!!!
Keep the suggestions coming! I'm listening!!!
RCB |
Dave Walker (Chrome_dome)
Registered Member
Username: Chrome_dome
Post Number: 40
Registered: 3-2010
Posted From: 67.174.144.159
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 03, 2010 - 12:55 am: | |
Quote; "Have not "loosed" other connections, i.e. the solenoid, circuit breakers etc...since, when last shut down"
R.C.
Since everybody else is here, here is my 2 cents.
I would check those very connections and wires for breaks or ground outs on that solenoid or maybe bad solenoid and or Bad Bendix unit that is unable to hold gear in long enough to start it?
Dave |
Donald P H (Eagle19952)
Registered Member
Username: Eagle19952
Post Number: 28
Registered: 11-2007
Posted From: 75.223.254.105
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 03, 2010 - 1:23 am: | |
ARE YOUR CONNECTIONS SOLDERED OR CRIMPED.
PERHAPS EVEN THO THEY ARE CLEAN AND TIGHT THEY ARE NOT "MAKING".....IF THEY GOT HOT.... |
Jim Wallin (Powderseeker01)
Registered Member
Username: Powderseeker01
Post Number: 74
Registered: 10-2008
Posted From: 208.68.48.77
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 03, 2010 - 6:42 am: | |
Just a thought, are the parking brakes on and engine in gear? Mine doesn't like to turn over much in that configuration, even with full batteries. |
R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member
Username: Chuckllb
Post Number: 1273
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 75.244.117.47
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 03, 2010 - 12:14 pm: | |
JIM WALLIN....you, sir...get the GOLD STAR...several of them in fact!!!
It was in gear....how silly one feels when confronted with such wisdom..
I was about to take off the starter since I found no way of turning the engine over by hand..no nut, just a fly wheel bolted on by a series of nuts....... Then I remembered Jim's post.
It had been in neutral until I had to remove the driver seat to check the electrical panel next to it...necessary to put in 10th gear to do that conveniently. Guess I was so intent on what I was doing that everything else faded... ain't aging challenging...and contentious?
Placed it in neutral, turned the key...pushed the switch and in several turns it fired right up.
NOW..George, et al, I am, once again, going to include the isolator in the loop. I don't trust the thing, but am going to do it 'cause that seems to be the only way to charge the house batteries going down the road; I just believe the hookup directly to the alternator for that purpose may, indeed have been the culprit.
Meantime, I got a lot of "practice" (cheap labor), learned a lot and have no regrets that I did not make it to the cool mountains this day....(we are supposed to be 106 degrees by Sunday.....) But wait until tomorrow! Hopefully, I'm outta' here!!
Once again, all who participated....many thanx. And special thanx to Jim Wallin for his "wisdom" >>>and of course, to our favored BOSS NUT, Ian!!!!
What a wonderful resource we have here; let's not take it for granted!
Best wishes to everyone.
RCB |
Jim Wallin (Powderseeker01)
Registered Member
Username: Powderseeker01
Post Number: 75
Registered: 10-2008
Posted From: 72.37.244.90
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 03, 2010 - 12:21 pm: | |
Well, I can't take too much credit, but I have gone through a similar exercise in the past so I thought it was worth a mention. Glad to hear that things are back to normal while the cool mountains still beckon... |
Jim Wilke (Jim Bob) (Pd41044039)
Registered Member
Username: Pd41044039
Post Number: 495
Registered: 2-2001
Posted From: 184.0.3.170
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 03, 2010 - 2:19 pm: | |
"Transmission or accessory problem causing similar resistance to rotation."
Both Jims were on track. |
marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member
Username: Gomer
Post Number: 923
Registered: 3-2007
Posted From: 71.53.153.91
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 03, 2010 - 8:02 pm: | |
You Guys simply amaze me, with you intelectual ability to figure out stuff and then wind up, it all works!
I think that BP needs to be a member of this board. I know somebody will be able to figure it out.I think they are taking applications for engineers now. Give it a try guys,and when you get rich maybe you can SPREAD IT AROUND! LOL
Gomer |
R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member
Username: Chuckllb
Post Number: 1274
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 75.244.32.100
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 03, 2010 - 10:16 pm: | |
Jim Wilke.....my simple mind does not comprehend such advanced wisdom at times...straight forward is often difficult, as well....
Thanx and Kudos for the attempt....and Gold Stars as well....
Gomer....don't sell yourself short!! A lot of it is just pure common sense.....
Duhhhhh,!
Off to The elevations tomorrow. ( COOOOOOLLL)
Many thanx again for all the attention to the "problem" (s).
RCB |
R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member
Username: Chuckllb
Post Number: 1279
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 75.244.158.246
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 11, 2010 - 7:39 pm: | |
Now then, here is where we are today in our our pursuit of sorting things out...bear with me, please:
The latest trip did not have any blown fuses!! . Matter of fact, since I disconnected batteries and inverter from everything --then reconnected--all has been well.
We did, however, have lots of battery issues. Me thinks due to old (2004) depleted house batteries. Though charged to well over 12.6, they went down in a hurry with the inverter on. When I returned day before yesterday, I unhooked inverter and let the batteries do their thing (they read 14.3 on return)...now read 11.7 with no draw. Obviously time to replace.
The new starts (referenced above in this thread) read a healthy 14.42. They are still connected to the alternator...all draw turned off. The old starts, which I thought to be the culprit read a healthy 14.1,...out of the coach and not hooked to anything. (2007)
At this point it is curious why there is a substantial drop in those direct readings and what is read in the coach on the digital gauge...both house and starts, When they were hooked up prior to disconnecting they read about 1.5 to 2 volts less!! (as a set)
Charged all batteries on the 150 mile trip home, so all were at full charge
Another battery issue, the generator battery went below 11.5 during the trip...necessary to use a start battery in it's place while we were parked.
Upon re-charge (disconnected from gen)of the original, disconnected from the generator, it reads a healthy 14.3.
Possibly coincidental, but wonder if the inverter might have an issue about charging current from generator. It shows that it is charging and the digital readout indicates the same thing. Of course, it could be a generator issue...that I have not had time to get into yet.
Can't imagine what is going on here,
Sean, elaborate on that cheap "fix" you mentioned in Les's thread....get specific as you can so that I know what to look for (to fix= parts, etc.)
Les..thanx for the layman's approach..have done most of it, but want to go back and take another look AFTER I re connect everything in a day or two...want to let the batteries sit another day or two and see what happens.
But I do have a question or two:
What happens, if anything, ( I have a transfer switch and 3 stage Trace )when shore power is connected then the generator started , or the engine started while still connected.
Same question about when generator is running and the engine is started (no showe power connection).
Thanx, again!
RCB |
les marston (Les_marston)
Registered Member
Username: Les_marston
Post Number: 71
Registered: 1-2010
Posted From: 68.151.225.213
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 11, 2010 - 9:01 pm: | |
Maybe I can help a little but again you are getting into Sean and others area of expertise.
You are getting readings of over 14 volts? Is this when the engine is running or when you are plugged into shore power? In other words what I am asking is this a standing voltage or a charging voltage?
If this is the voltage you have when the batteries are being charged then great. However it seems to me that 14 plus volts from a battery that is not on one charge or another is to high and if it is you maybe over charging and boiling the batteries.
Might be a stupid question but have you checked the acid level in the cells of the batteries lately?
Does the generator battery also charge from the alternator or the inverter? Seems like to much of a coincidence that you are having problems with what sounds like every battery you have on board.
As for the 2004 year of the batteries. I have had and know people who have had the same batteries for 10 years. It is possible that the 2004 batteries need to be replaced but you could possibly get better service out of the next set by sizing and maintaining them. Assuming that you may have slipped in the maintenance department
Your 3 way transfer switch should not let shore power feed back to the generator and your trace inverter should switch from making AC power to charging the batteries when ether the shore power or the generator are in the system
The cheap fix that Sean mentioned wouldn't work for you because your inverter is also your charger and the solenoid would not be able to carry the load when your inverter was making power. In my little SandS motor home we were only dealing with DC power at a much lower amperage.
check the standing voltage of the batteries after a few days should be around 12.5 volts each or around 25 volts together.
Hope it helps I know how frustrating it can be
Les |
George M. Todd (George_todd)
Registered Member
Username: George_todd
Post Number: 1030
Registered: 8-2006
Posted From: 99.184.9.29
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 11, 2010 - 10:20 pm: | |
Chuck,
I echo some of what Les is saying, and if I read what you are saying correctly, your voltmeter is reading about 2 volts high. A fully charged lead-acid battery in good condition, at room temperature, should read 12.56. Slightly more as the temperature increases. Overcharging a battery will NOT continue to increase its voltage.
A properly operating charging system should produce about 14.2 Volts across a 12 Volt battery. Said battery will show a little over 13 Volts for a few minutes after being charged, but never 14 Volts the next day. So, if you are getting 14.2 Volts running, AND FOR SURE CHARGING, and 14.1 on a battery that hasn't been connected for 24 hours, somethings wrong! (Either the meter reads 14 when it sees 12, and you're not charging, or it reads 14 all the time?)
G |
R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member
Username: Chuckllb
Post Number: 1280
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 75.244.158.246
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 11, 2010 - 11:09 pm: | |
Les...and George...remember.... I charged everything on the 150 mile trip back home (except the original start batteries, which were sitting in the back of my truck, disconnected from each other and by them selves....voltage read as stated.
Batteries were all "serviced" about four weeks ago+- .....most needed distilled water, but not unusual amounts. Not sure of the "acid level" you refer to unless it is covered by adding fluid...???
The house batteries were also charged, along with the new starts,on that trip, and read as stated after two days of just sitting. Reason I want to let them "sit" a couple of days before I re- connect them to anything.
The premise that the volt meter is off the mark is valid... I have two others and will check for the next few days with them as well.
At this point all batteries are disconnected from everything (inverter,shore,generator...and each other) and read as stated.
Guess time will tell.
So from what I gather, Les...the transfer switch couldn't have relapsed or whatever?
And what abut the "double charge" when more entities (shore/generator/alternator)are "charging".... plus the solar panels (10 watt each set) were also connected. Could all the "charging" that is going on cause a problem?
Complex...and yes, Les...frustrating! (when one is flying by the seat of one's pants on knowledge of the subject...) How many time I wish I still had George Myers book....
I'm beginning to think that the house and starts should be charged only via isolator when driving. (yep, G....you read right) and not direct alternator to both...can't help but think that could be the big critter in the equation.(maaybe even blowing of the start fuse???)
As for sizing...elaborate a bit Les...please
Thanx, guys!
RCB |
les marston (Les_marston)
Registered Member
Username: Les_marston
Post Number: 72
Registered: 1-2010
Posted From: 68.151.225.213
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 12, 2010 - 12:34 am: | |
Well Chuck I stand corrected. George is absolutely right It doesn't matter how high voltage you put into a 12 volt battery it won't exceed about 13 volts off the charger and also it will only hold that voltage for a short time.
Most charging systems are quite good, unlike the old one that I pulled out of the motor home.
They "see what the batteries need and don't, as a rule,
over charge
the solar system wont over charge the batteries. it has a controller that regulates it very well. also 10 watts is less than 1 amp. I don't know how many 10 watt panels you have but add up the watts and divide it by 12 volts and that tells you the amps that you are getting. Remember you only get 10 watts in full sunshine
The alternator won't over charge unless the voltage regulator has failed then all bets are off. Simple test. check the voltage before starting the engine (12.5 volts approximately) and with engine running 13.8 to 14.4 volts. give or take a few decimal points.
The reason you have a transfer switch is to prevent getting power from two sources at the same time. If you got a feed back of AC power to the generator it would likely do serious damage to the unit. fortunately they are very well protected. some even have a built in switch to prevent power coming back to them when they are not running. If your transfer switch failed it would most likely fail in a position where shore power would work but you would not get power from the generator to the coach system.
A lot of people have different ideas on sizing house batteries.
My take is this.
Add up all the DC amps you use per day when dry camping, multiply that by the number of days you want to be power/ generator independent,subtract how much you get from the solar ( good luck with that one) add 20% and that is how much battery you need for the house. Just my way!
You may find that "my way" is a lot more batteries than you want to carry if so, Don't dry camp so long or put more solar in line.
Remember if you draw out a lot of amps from a battery bank it will take longer to replace the charge.
A 150 mile trip would take about 3 hours. if you are charging flat start battery and flat house batteries 3 hours may not be enough to bring them up to full snuff.
Man I haven't typed this much in my life.
Hope it helped answer some questions
Les |
R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member
Username: Chuckllb
Post Number: 1281
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 75.245.229.103
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 12, 2010 - 10:22 am: | |
....thanx for the x-tra effort Les!! Much appreciated.
George...you hit the nail on the head!!!... about 2 volts difference, as you mentioned. The old starts still read 12.0 and 12.1 but the house set reads 9.6. Bad volt meter. (And is chief reason I keep several of them around...albeit I did not check one against the other, for whatever reason ) ...Thanx for bringing it up.
Do I understand correctly that the simultaneous "charging" of generator, engine and solar can not damage the Transfer Switch? (The question still comes back to me...what was the fuse problem all about--see top of thread)
I agree with you, Les, about sizing...just thought I might be overlooking or un aware of something. We have 5 house batteries (Deep cycle), 3 starts, 1 Generator. While I could carry more, it would be a cumbersome configuration.
The generator, turns out, has a "charging" problem of it's own, Either a bad plug wire, bad coil or other issue. Only one cylinder is working, which, of course affects the charge capability. What is the best way to check the coil? Continuity in the wire seems "iffy". I don't have a manual, but one is "on it's way".
And the beat goes on....
RCB |
Don Evans (Doninwa)
Registered Member
Username: Doninwa
Post Number: 271
Registered: 1-2007
Posted From: 208.81.157.234
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 12, 2010 - 11:50 am: | |
If the genny only has one coil and is firing on one cylinder, it is probably OK. Try swapping the spark plugs to see if the problem stays with the cylinder then swap the plug wires.
Good luck
Don 4107 |
R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member
Username: Chuckllb
Post Number: 1286
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 75.243.134.88
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 13, 2010 - 8:49 pm: | |
Don... have done that. Unbelievable the amount of fuel required (lost) when only one cylinder is working...also, the wire and plug are dead cold.
Took the wire out of the coil and found much corrosion...cleaned thoroughly but made no difference.
Since it is Onan, ($$$) I hate to just change out the coil without proving it defective.
Thanx,
RCB |
Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
Registered Member
Username: Pvcces
Post Number: 1327
Registered: 5-2001
Posted From: 65.74.67.67
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 13, 2010 - 9:26 pm: | |
RCB, our Onan has a bad wire; it ran on one cylinder until it got warm enough to fire on both. I taped the exposed length of wire with electrical tape and it has been fine ever since.
I would replace it except for the fact that it looks as though I will need to take the Onan out of the bus to do it. I'm not looking forward to doing that.
Maybe you have a similar problem.
Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576
Suncatcher
Ketchikan, Alaska |
Jim Wilke (Jim Bob) (Pd41044039)
Registered Member
Username: Pd41044039
Post Number: 502
Registered: 2-2001
Posted From: 184.0.3.170
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 14, 2010 - 9:42 am: | |
One bad cylinder (plug/wire/coil) on a 2 cylinder will not reduce the battery charging voltage if there is no or very little AC power being used. If the engine can maintain 1800 rpms (60hz) then the battery charge should be fine. But those Onans have a very low charging current, maybe 10A. Three hours might well not be long enough. |
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