| Author | Message | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1309 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.244.52.33 Rating: N/A |
....afternoon, and since I am engaged with changing batteries (new ones), I have been browsing the internet and came up with a pretty informative site=http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/batt_con.html Also, http://www.marxrv.com/12volt/12volt.htm I'm impressed and you folks may be too. Took someone a lot of work. I appreciate it a bunch. Would suggest page 1 as a beginning....  FWIW... ....and hoping everyone on this side of the pond is having a great 4th...Remember what it is all about. (I've had tears in my eyes several times today just listening to the music...ie, America the Beautiful, et al). RCB (Message edited by Chuckllb on July 04, 2010) (Message edited by Chuckllb on July 04, 2010) | ||
| John & Barb Tesser (Bigrigger)
Registered Member Username: Bigrigger Post Number: 426 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 96.42.5.35  Rating: N/A |
A special thanks to all who have served (and those who still are) to make this country free. Even with all it's faults and foibles, it still is the best thing going. Happy 4th All. John and Barb | ||
| George Martinez (Foohorse)
Registered Member Username: Foohorse Post Number: 153 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 70.149.17.126  Rating: N/A |
My family took great risks to bring me here from a Communist country (Cuba) they have shared many stories of our beautiful Island and how it was destroyed. whenever I here someone spewing forth the benefits of communism diarrhoea because of the example of China I let them have it with both barrels, then I let Carrie Finish shredding the pieces left over. God Bless and Guide this great country. | ||
| Roger Baughman (Roger)
Registered Member Username: Roger Post Number: 172 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 69.232.66.47  Rating: N/A |
Maybe Sean and George Todd could give us an openion on the battery site that RC gave us. | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 1225 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 99.168.83.142  Rating: N/A |
These and other methods (rotate the batts) have been covered in Home Power Magazine for for at least the last 2 decades. On line FREE. FF | ||
| George M. Todd (George_todd)
Registered Member Username: George_todd Post Number: 1059 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 99.184.9.29 Rating: N/A |
Roger, Thaqnks for the "goose" to get me to take a look at the working link. I offer the following: The internal resistance of the batteries cited CANNOT be added to the calculations, BECAUSE the current does not flow thru all of the batteries, only 1/4 of it each, minus the resistance loss of the cables! Secondly, the first alternative, with one connection at each end is the best PRACTICAL way of equalizing draw. Adding all of the cables and connections to get rid of a few 10,000ths of an Ohm just doesn't make sense. Third, just take the first drawing, and move the connections down between the second and third batteries, and think about the results! Very little extra cable used, if any, #2 & 3 batts exactly equal, no resistance, #1 & 4 only one extra connection each, with a few ten thousandths of an Ohm each. This link is a good example of why the British drink warm beer, they have Lucas refrigerators. We all should read the Canadian Jokes post, especially the part about the Scot haggling over the price! (My mother was born in Glasgow.) One corroded terminal causes a hundred times more current imbalance! G | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1310 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.245.155.80 Rating: N/A |
Just goes to show....I am a real dummy, huh??? : Have no clue about the facts on "internal" issues of batteries, or the adjusting of cables to equalize draw. 1)"Third, just take the first drawing, and move the connections down between the second and third batteries, and think about the results!"....Ive been thinkin'...I've been thinkin'....nothing happens!!! 2) I read the Canadian Jokes post....still thinkin'... 3)Been thinking about the corroded terminals as well....I don't know about the odds, but I agree with the principle! 4) One of the links mentions Home Power, me thinks!...but then, you know me, huh? What I do know, however, is that both sites were presented that even I...an admitted dummy, can understand not only the English, but can (I think) understand what they are both saying about "batteries". ..whether or not they are spot on, I do not know. I note one is an International Company. And the beat goes on... RCB | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1311 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.245.155.80 Rating: N/A |
Morning Chuck, An isolator can be checked with a cheap multimeter. Put it on Ohms scale (maybe R X 1, or 200 Ohms?) Remembering there is battery voltage on the isolator, after disconnecting it, put the red meter lead on the middle terminal, the black lead on one side. Move the black to the other side. Then move the red from the middle to one of the sides, and put the black on the middle. A good isolator will read low Ohms with one lead on the middle, and the other on either side. When you change leads to the middle connection, NO reading should show on EITHER side. Pass=low reading from middle to either side, before/after lead swap to middle terminal, + no reading from middle to the sides, after red/black reversal. Another thought, easier, with engine running, and NO disconnect. Meter on a low voltage DC scale. Connect to middle and one side, voltage should read about 0.6 Volts DC, same middle to other side, about 6/10 Volt. Zero reading means a shorted diode, 14 Volts means an open diode. G | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1312 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.245.155.80 Rating: N/A |
Strange things happen...George, the above is a post you made in answer to a question I had, about a year ago, regarding how to check an Isolator....don't ask me how it ended up the way it is...I had tried to copy and paste, but, obviously, it did not work. Having said that, I tried all of your suggestions again today attempting, once again, to get the critter to do what I THOUGHT it should do. 1) in the first instance, (second paragraph above) mixed readings on three Multimeters. 2) engine running, no where near 14 volts....more like 11.9. 3) dismounted and bench tested. Readings (ohms) 7.65 numerous times, both "ends". I do not pretend to know the first thing about how an Isolator should function, but I do know that if, when the engine is running, it should "charge" one bank or the other, I cannot seem to get it to do that. So therefore I have Questions: 1) I am not convinced the thing is "stable"? Bench tests show what you outlined as a "good" Isolator, unless I misunderstand your writing. 2) Is there a particular way the unit should be mounted?...Mine (Schottsky 200 amp)is bolted to the Chassis Frame; alternator to middle post, Starts to left (#1)end and House to right (#2) end. Hang in there, George...the Lord is not finished with me yet!! Thanx, RCB | ||
| George M. Todd (George_todd)
Registered Member Username: George_todd Post Number: 1060 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 99.184.9.29 Rating: N/A |
Chuck, He isn't finished with me either, so between us we'll figure it out! With the isolator out, and all three leads bolted together, not touching anything else, where the isolator was, you should charge both sets of batteries IF the charging system is working properly. The only down side to this is while boondocking, you will disharge your starts along with your house! So, fire up, and on a DCV scale, look for about 14 Volts to ground at both battery positive terminals, and at the alternator output terminal. If you have 14V, charging system is good, if you don't have over 13.5, charging system trouble. If the charging system checks out ok, put the iso back in, and read voltage to ground on all 3 terminals with the engine running. IF you read 14.2 before, you should read 14.7 on the alternator terminal, and nearly 14.2 on BOTH battery terminals, if the iso is ok. 11.9 or something near means that side of the iso is open. Isos don't care about a ground, or which terminal is connected to which battery bank, just so the alt is on the alt or input terminal. The iso should be vertical, and the fins should be vertical, for best cooling. G | ||
| George M. Todd (George_todd)
Registered Member Username: George_todd Post Number: 1061 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 99.184.9.29 Rating: N/A |
I should apologize to the battery company for being a little too harsh in my first opinion! I would also like to ask the bunch of us a question. How many of us with several batteries in parallel, connected like the first drawing, have consistently had the "first" battery routinely fail before the rest? G | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 1228 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 99.168.83.142 Rating: N/A |
I do not pretend to know the first thing about how an Isolator should function, but I do know "that if, when the engine is running, it should "charge" one bank or the other, I cannot seem to get it to do that." $18 bucks at the RV dealer will get you a solenoid that has minor V drop when charging and no mysteries when trouble shooting. KISS FF | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1313 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.243.22.75 Rating: N/A |
OK, Fred, I accept what you say...but, what X-actly...have you said? I haven't the foggiest idea what (in laymen terms)what it is you are conveying....as stated earlier, I'm an "Electrical Dummy" George..wish I had taken note of the question you asked...unfortunately, did not. And...I know absolutely nothing...zip, NADA about warm beer..... RCB | ||
| joe padberg (Joemc7ab)
Registered Member Username: Joemc7ab Post Number: 437 Registered: 6-2004 Posted From: 66.38.159.33 Rating: N/A |
Chuck Cant help myself, but gonna make a suggestion to drink some warm british beer out of that Lucas fridge to help the grey matter become adjusted so that it might discern and accept some of these electrical mysteries. Joe. | ||
| Jim Wilke (Jim Bob) (Pd41044039)
Registered Member Username: Pd41044039 Post Number: 516 Registered: 2-2001 Posted From: 184.0.3.170 Rating: N/A |
And don't forget that Lucas is also known as "The Price of Darkness". | ||
| joe padberg (Joemc7ab)
Registered Member Username: Joemc7ab Post Number: 438 Registered: 6-2004 Posted From: 66.38.159.33 Rating: N/A |
Lest chuck gets the wrong idea, the english cars of old offcourse were equipped with Lucas electricals and had a habit of leaving you stranded on the road after dark, hence the name Prince of darkness. Joe. | ||
| steve wardwell (Steve_wardwell)
Registered Member Username: Steve_wardwell Post Number: 36 Registered: 2-2010 Posted From: 75.201.166.160  Rating: N/A |
I have to wonder if this info is at all useful to someone with batteries in a series config. Aren't most of us using a 24 v. set up for our house bank? And aren't most of us using the cheaper 6 volt golf kart batteries in multiple groups of four?.I have 12 batteries in our house bank 3 separate banks @ 24v each,and grouped parallel at the inverter terminals...been like that for over 5 years on the same set of "Sams" cheapo's | ||
| Jim Wilke (Jim Bob) (Pd41044039)
Registered Member Username: Pd41044039 Post Number: 517 Registered: 2-2001 Posted From: 184.0.3.170 Rating: N/A |
I'm using a 12v house bank. Mine is a 12v bus and I have a 2512 inverter. | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1314 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.245.41.192 Rating: N/A |
George... doing as you said to do: Started the engine; at 700 rpm, 12.2; at 1500 rpm, 13.8. Read the same in the cab on a digital meter and via multimeter at the alternator. Bran spankin' new batteries. So, apparently we have "charging system trouble". A bit of explanation on the system set-up. In the original coach wiring, there are two sets of cables from/to the alternator/starter and to ground. I use only one set....taped off the other set. Large cables...2/0???or more. Would that have an effect? I can certainly use both, but since I am not using 8Ds and have the three GP31 in Parallel; thought that to be sufficient, or??? Where, specifically, please, should I begin to eliminate those "charging system troubles"? Remember... I am a DUMMY...but not incapable... Steve...may truly be that "most of us" are using 24v....but as one can see there are at least 2 of us using 12v, huh, Jim Bob? Joe...always wanted one of the Brit Sports Cars...can't recall the name at this point; not the Triumph or the MG....but always heard how bad the electrical system was. Back in the 60's...my how time flies!!! Thanx, all! RCB | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1316 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.245.41.192 Rating: N/A |
After spending the last hour on "Alternator Troubleshooting"...Internet... methinks my latest post above is....well....probably not in order, George. One thing and then another...just life, I guess. Thanx, anyway! RCB | ||
| George M. Todd (George_todd)
Registered Member Username: George_todd Post Number: 1062 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 99.184.9.29 Rating: N/A |
Well Chuck, here goes. If you have the chassis and the house batts bolted together where the isolator was, and the batts were a little low, 13.8 isn't too bad. After driving a while, you should see 14 volts on everything, or your regulator may be set too low, or a diode has gone open in your alternator, reducing its output. I am assuming you have an alternator with 100+ Amps output? A bunch of partly discharged new batteries will soak up a lot of alternator output without showing much voltage for a while, so things may be ok. The second set of cables shouldn't be necessary, as a 2/0 cable should handle over a hundred Amps without causing enough resistance to confuse your voltage regulator. A Morgan, or an Austin Healy? Does the coach charge when plugged in to shore? If so, please give us a reading after charging overnight, while still plugged in. Then we'll try and figure out where the problem may be. Does the cab meter read higher after driving a while, and/or at and near max governed rpm? G | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 1230 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 99.168.83.142 Rating: N/A |
"I haven't the foggiest idea what (in laymen terms)what it is you are conveying....as stated earlier, I'm an "Electrical Dummy"" The desire is to keep the batteries (House and Start )electrically apart while the coach is parked. This keeps your house loads from running down the start batts . The second desire is to join them electrically when the coach alternator is operating, so you can charge the house set while going down the road. The transistor isolator is the quickest to install as all you do is hook the batts to the unit and it lets juice flow from the start batts into the house , but blocks the house from dis charging the starts. Problem is the transistor unit costs a small amount of voltage while charging , so the house charges slower or the starts get over voltage to charge the house.. A Mechanical switch has no such problems , but you would have to open and close the switch , boaters use a 3 way switch , but have to turn it and REMEMBER to shut it off , when stopping the engine. 5,000,000 campers for 50 years use a remote switch, an $18.00 solenoid, to perform the joining and un-joining automatically. Works seamlessly for them really well, and trouble shooting simply consists of a 3 inch small wire from the start side to touch the terminal to operate it. Hear a click? , it is working. The down side is to control the solenoid requires a wire to tell it to close and open. This is usually done by installing an auto style key switch to start the coach. The terminal ACC(runs the radio and other toys)is connected to the solenoid to operate it. The joy of this is ZERO is required on the drivers part, (remember those clueless 5,000,000RV drivers) its automatic. To recharge the start batts while plugged into shore power simply requires the key to be used in the ACC (listen to the radio while parked) position once a month for overnight. Simple and inexpensive , MY WAY, FF | ||
| steve wardwell (Steve_wardwell)
Registered Member Username: Steve_wardwell Post Number: 37 Registered: 2-2010 Posted From: 75.202.92.39 Rating: N/A |
how about a Jag with their wonderful positive earth? | ||
| George Martinez (Foohorse)
Registered Member Username: Foohorse Post Number: 154 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 70.149.17.252 Rating: N/A |
Al right now that is quite enough with the English Motor bashing. one must make allowances for character and soul, also there was a time 1800s that Lucas was the finest manufacturer of electrical components in the world. but then along came a German company producing inferior quality but much cheaper products and Lucas slowly lost market share, in trying to survive they had to sacrifice quality in order to compete but alas it was to no avail. Robert Bosh's little upstart company is now a leader in the world while Lucas pales in comparison. sort of sounds like what the Chinese are doing to us now doesn't it. What about an Allard, Aston Martin or Armstrong Siddley | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1317 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.245.93.188 Rating: N/A |
George hit it...the Austin Healy! Wanted one of those from the first time I was around them in Europe in the 50s. A friend had one when I lived in Colorado in the 70s. Twas always in the shop for electrical problems; alas, I gave it up... George, for clarification the house bank, all new as of yesterday, is not hooked up...to anything or each other. The start bank, also new (but reading 12.1...have been sitting for a couple of weeks, no charging and multiple starts over the period) is as wired above. For the past couple of weeks everything has been disconnected; only connected when "tests" were being performed. (again, no house batts were even in the coach) I want to get all issues resolved, hopefully, prior to permanent installation. Much easier for me to work with one "problem" at a time. I need to attach the inverter to the starts in order to charge overnight as you requested. Intend to do that today. In the past, the cab meter has charged to 14.1/2 but I cannot tell you how it has been in recent days. Seems I recall that 13.8/9 figure, however. You know, all changed when I started having fuses blow a month or so ago. You may recall I disconnected/cleaned/reconnected everything beginning at the battery trays and have not blown a fuse since. I can't read what size the alternator is, but suspect it is pretty good size. Perhaps the attached photo will be of benefit. FF....thanx for the explanation. Food for thought. RCB  | ||
| steve wardwell (Steve_wardwell)
Registered Member Username: Steve_wardwell Post Number: 38 Registered: 2-2010 Posted From: 75.202.92.39 Rating: N/A |
well I'm not bashing English cars that xke was the sexist car I've ever owned right up until I met my wife and had to sell it for some sort of family wagon or some such thing (I really can't recall the next car very well) ,It paled in comparison to that old jag.with its creative electronics and 3 carbs. | ||
| Len Silva (Lsilva)
Registered Member Username: Lsilva Post Number: 377 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 72.187.35.208  Rating: N/A |
Oh my God, the XKE was the most exiting, sexiest, fastest, most fun to drive piece of junk ever built. | ||
| George M. Todd (George_todd)
Registered Member Username: George_todd Post Number: 1063 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 99.184.9.29 Rating: N/A |
Chuck, Fred is just plain incorrect in his description of an isolator, and how its connected, and I will explain again why! (Several of us have explained this previously in other posts.) Isolators are NOT properly connected to the chassis batteries, they are connected to the alternator output cable between the alternator and the chassis system, with a cable to the house system. First, silicon transistor material (the stuff diode isolators are made of) causes a voltage drop of 0.6 Volts. As there are TWO diodes in an isolator, ONE IN EACH CIRCUIT Fred, the voltage drop through each circuit is EXACTLY EQUAL. Second, isolators DON'T take power from the chassis batteries and put it in the house batteries, they take it straight from the alternator, and distribute it according to the state of charge, between the chassis and the house systems. Third, in all of our buses with a seperate voltage regulator and alternator, the voltage regulator is connected "downstream" of the isolator, so it uses the voltage after the isolator's drop as it's reference. Consequently it adds 0.6 Volts to the alternator's output voltage, without knowing why, it just asks for its voltage setting, and the chassis gets exactly the same voltage as it did before the isolator was installed. Now, since the circuit through the isolator is parallel, THE DROP ON THE HOUSE SIDE IS EXACTLY THE SAME AS IT IS ON THE CHASSIS SIDE, SO THE TWO BATTERY BANKS RECEIVE EXACTLY THE SAME VOLTAGE. If a one-wire alternator is used thru an isolator, BOTH banks will charge at 0.6 Volts less than the alternator's setting. In a bus with a master switch and a solenoid, the house batteries will be connected to the chassis batteries when starting, which can cause a problem if the house batts are really down. So, the solution is an ignition switch wired as Fred describes. A year ago I asked Fred how to keep from having the bus stolen with the key in the ignition switch in the ACC position overnight, but we don't have an answer yet... Sorry, but I get grumpy when misinformation keeps getting posted. G | ||
| Jim Wilke (Jim Bob) (Pd41044039)
Registered Member Username: Pd41044039 Post Number: 519 Registered: 2-2001 Posted From: 184.0.3.170 Rating: N/A |
Well George, I could leave the key in the ignition (if it had one), $100 taped to the wheel for gas and nobody would steal mine. I leave the 110lb Rottie in there with our 3 Jack Russels. (Hint, the 20lb Russells are what you have to fear! They fight in a pack, jump for the crotch and if you mess with one, "You're messing with the whole trailer park!") And if I think we might be leaving the bus in a bad neighborhood, I turn off the 1/4 turn ball valve I put in the fuel line. They'd never even get air built up. | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1318 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.210.44.77 Rating: N/A |
....that was it, the XKE....Jags were a favorite too,......till I came "home" and saw folks driving them; then I was off them. Still am. Cadillac as well. Shades of earlier times, I confess. Lord, please forgive me!. "Sometimes I feel like a motherless child....a long way from....". ( wish I weren't "that way"...  ) RCB | ||
| George M. Todd (George_todd)
Registered Member Username: George_todd Post Number: 1064 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 99.184.9.29 Rating: N/A |
Jim, Mine doesn't have a key either. It does have a quirk however, which provides some security. There is enough flex in the clutch linkage that the clutch won't disengage until the auxiliary air is up enough to operate the clutch assist cylinder. It won't start in gear, and all it will do is grind in neutral with the clutch pedal down, until the air gets up. Unless I'm way far away, I'll hear the dozen buzzin unexpectedly, and get back before it leaves? Not to mention the DD3s won't release without air. I'd like an XKE too! Can you put a Chevy in one of them? G | ||
| ED Hackenbruch (Shadowman)
Registered Member Username: Shadowman Post Number: 299 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 75.230.243.250 Rating: N/A |
Have had at one time or another, A Hillman wagon, an AH bugeye sprite, an MGB, an Alpha, a TR6, and currently have a TR4, with a Ford 289 in it. :>) | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 1231 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 99.168.83.142 Rating: |
THE DROP ON THE HOUSE SIDE IS EXACTLY THE SAME AS IT IS ON THE CHASSIS SIDE, SO THE TWO BATTERY BANKS RECEIVE EXACTLY THE SAME VOLTAGE. The problem with this is some voltage regulators are smart , they cut back on the voltage supplied as the start batts get charged, which reduces the charge to the house , before they are charged. Since the house may be down 50% and the starts down 1/2% from just starting the coach, charge times can be dramatically increased. The alternative is to feed the Voltage regulator from the house set , which does not seem to harm the starts from overvoltage charging, but might cost some distilled water. In a bus with a master switch and a solenoid, the house batteries will be connected to the chassis batteries when starting, which can cause a problem if the house batts are really down. With a boat rotary switch the usual is to start with the starts , then after a min or so go to both . "So, the solution is an ignition switch wired as Fred describes." This does keep an almost dead house set from drawing power from the starts , which may help. I say MAY because most "1/2 dead" batteries are still above the cranking voltage of most starter motors. Starters are happy with 9V if the amperage is there , the engine cranks normally. And the far larger size of house batts mean there is boodles of amperage to help the start. Theoretical concepts are great , but actual experience usually triumphs. For our boat cruising (6-71)we usually start with a rotary switch in HOUSE. Since the system voltmeter is wired to the starter main cable AT the starter , I get to monitor the start voltage on each and every start. The huge amperage of the house spins the DD at normal start speed , regardless of how discharged they are , 9V while cranking does fine "A year ago I asked Fred how to keep from having the bus stolen with the key in the ignition switch in the ACC position overnight, but we don't have an answer yet..." The simple solution for this once a month need is to charge the house while you are sleeping aboard , or simply lock the front door? I did post how to add a truck lock to a bus entry door years ago. MY WAY is to open the air muffler water dump valve in the engine space at all times the coach is left in a HIGH CRIME area. The bus cant air up, which makes it a bit harder to steal.MY WAY Your Way? FF | ||
| Tim Brandt (Timb)
Registered Member Username: Timb Post Number: 544 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.165.176.62  Rating: N/A |
I still have an XKE though it's the less popular 2+2 model it's still fun to drive.....for about an hour before I need to tinker with it again to fix something http://members.tccoa.com/timb/jag1.jpg | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1319 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.245.29.63 Rating: N/A |
George...as of this a.m., unplugged from shore power, no other charging device attached, the reading at the cab is 13.2/1 (back and forth). Prior to unplugging,the inverter showed the batteries fully charged with the same readings. Nice car, Tim! Bet you enjoy it. The top is permanent(doesn't come off)...or? I settled for a VW Cabriolet.(88) RCB | ||
| steve wardwell (Steve_wardwell)
Registered Member Username: Steve_wardwell Post Number: 39 Registered: 2-2010 Posted From: 75.202.231.67 Rating: N/A |
wow Tim It makes my heart go pitter pat..had a yellow roadster that needed everything re done but the motor which I replaced from a wreck.got it from a jarhead's wife for $600. Boy do I ever miss that car. and yes George JC Whitney had kits to put a 283 in w/mounts and all. I remember I was getting 10 miles to the gallon. Getting 265 hp from a 6 cyl back then was awesome.Big jugs.The day I replaced the engine I drove it over two towns to see my future bride with no hood.You have had to ave owned one to know whats that's like.LOL | ||
| Tim Brandt (Timb)
Registered Member Username: Timb Post Number: 545 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.165.176.62 Rating: N/A |
I found mine in someones backyard in S FL with grass growing up around it. I ended up welding in new floors and a little repair in the lower corners of the bonnet. Yes the top is permanent witha hatch on the rear. Here is a shot of the back showing the top/hatch http://members.tccoa.com/timb/jag2.jpg These pics were just after I got it back from paint. I gave it to my father-in-law for his 60th several years ago but he doesn't drive it much and doesn't have the tinkering skills so I still spend a lot of time in it. We also have an agreement that it will come back to me when he passes or gets tired of maintaining it (Message edited by timb on July 08, 2010) | ||
| George Martinez (Foohorse)
Registered Member Username: Foohorse Post Number: 155 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 70.146.41.174 Rating: N/A |
I am glad to hear that there are those here that do realize that old English cars have the power to evoke such passion and love. even with the quirks. I miss my 61 Silver Cloud, I would drive her along A1A in the evening. some nights when the moon was full she would transport me back to a different time and place. she was a Grand Lady that always behaved properly. | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 1232 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 99.168.83.142 Rating: N/A |
"I am glad to hear that there are those here that do realize that old English cars have the power to evoke such passion and love. even with the quirks." Some folks still purchase wooden boats! Go figure? | ||
| steve wardwell (Steve_wardwell)
Registered Member Username: Steve_wardwell Post Number: 41 Registered: 2-2010 Posted From: 75.202.231.67 Rating: N/A |
there is nothing that replaces a wooden boat! Glass or steel can be had but they don't have the same feel | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 947 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 71.55.13.161  Rating: N/A |
Gearge come on up and you can rebuild that 49 Ford! I won't charge ya nothing either and I will pay your gas up here and back home LOL LLOLLLL Good to hear from ya Gomer | ||
| George Martinez (Foohorse)
Registered Member Username: Foohorse Post Number: 156 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 70.146.41.174 Rating: N/A |
Labours of love + old buses = bus nuts...... Hi Marvin I could do just that but Phoenix still needs me. | ||
| George M. Todd (George_todd)
Registered Member Username: George_todd Post Number: 1065 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 99.184.9.29 Rating: N/A |
Fred, Unfortunately you still don't understand electricity, or Ohm's law. I will try a different way to explain it to you. It has been a proven fact for over 200 years that electricity follows the path of least resistance. What this meansis that current will flow into a discharged battery easier than it will into a fully charged battery. As isolators are in the alternator output circuit, not "between the start and house batteries" as you first said, the current provided by the alternator has the opportunity to flow into whichever battery bank it wishes, in inverse relation to the amount of charge. In other words, the lower charged battery bank has less resistance than the higher charged one, so more current flows there. A voltage regulator is just that, a VOLTAGE regulator. Since the voltage regulator is downstream of the isolator, it sees the voltage after the isolator loss, and adjusts the alternator output to maintain full voltage setting. When the house batteries are discharged, more current flows into them, LOWERING THE VOLTAGE TO THE CHASSIS SIDE, so the voltage regulator adds more field current to the alternator to increase the output to maintain the voltage setting on the chassis side. Once again, the two diodes in an isolator are in PARALLEL, so both output terminals see exactly the same voltage. Your comment about "smart regulators" loses me. Vehicle voltage regulators keep the same voltage all the time the engine is running. Charging amperage varies by the state of charge. G | ||
| Jim Wilke (Jim Bob) (Pd41044039)
Registered Member Username: Pd41044039 Post Number: 521 Registered: 2-2001 Posted From: 184.0.3.170 Rating: |
George, you and Fred are starting to sound like Fred and Ace. I believe Fred understands electricity better than you think. Your first line seems pretty arrogant to me. As typically installed, the isolator is between the alternator output and both battery banks. The isolator prevents current flow between the house bank and chassis bank. Therefore it is functionally "between the house and start bank". In virtually all of the dozens of installations I have seen, the regulator sensing is NOT downstream of the isolator. It should be but it's not. In my Eagle bus, the regulator sensing is connected directly to the output terminal of the 50DN alternator. In my GM, which has a non factory one wire alternator as most engine powered machines do today, the regulator sensing is internal. Under those conditions, the isolator does not provide correct battery voltage information to the regulator as the diode reduces the alternator output and prevents any information from going back to the regulator. This is a common problem in boat installations. The typical fix has been to have the alternator shop install an adjustable internal regulator which allows the technician to raise the output to compensate for the diodes, so that the charging voltage at the battery positive terminal is correct. Under these situations, the alternator really never stops charging. A lot of batteries are killed this way. And the "smart regulators" Fred refers to are very common in marine and other applications. They provide a multi stepped charge to fully charge a battery bank without frying it. Maybe he will explain those to you. He knows them a lot better than I do. | ||
| Jim Wilke (Jim Bob) (Pd41044039)
Registered Member Username: Pd41044039 Post Number: 522 Registered: 2-2001 Posted From: 184.0.3.170 Rating: N/A |
Here's one of many links for "smart regulators" and recharging large deep cycle battery banks. http://www.ghe.net.nz/articles.html | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 1233 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 99.168.83.142 Rating: N/A |
Smart regulators are for folks "in a Hurry" to recharge their house set. Sail boaters use them as do marine motorists that prefer fast DC charging with a noisemaker and very large alternator. Recharge time and quality is the key. At $200 most bus campers usually don't bother , as their road engine time will be over the 4 to 6 hours usually needed to get back to 100% full, or the power pole at a campsite will take care of it overnight. In order to give the rapid charge these "smart" regulators also include a temperature sensor to preclude damage , from too much current . For folks that are willing to pay for the rapid charge , the 3 and 4 stage regulators (4th stage is equalize) it is a very sound investment. Batt sets will slowly decline if frequently recharged to a less than 100% full . Most cruisers will oversize the house set , cycle between 50% and 85%full as the last 10%-15% takes a really long time , regardless of the V reg style.They accept the slow death loss of capacity of less than full house batts The 3 stage regulator fills the set to 85% far more rapidly than an auto brained V reg , leaving more time to hammer the last bit of charge in. George is right that bus V regs are idiots , and simply hold a set voltage. Weather it charges the battset slowly , rapidly or over charges is all set by where the owner put the set screw voltage. AS I prefer long life for bulbs , and find batt watering a chore, we use 13.8 set point for out idiot V reg. But then we use campgrounds (hot tub and Pools)to maintain our DC loads . And we equalize monthly,automatically from the 75w solar panel. Sailing IS different ,with different operational regime. FF | ||
| George M. Todd (George_todd)
Registered Member Username: George_todd Post Number: 1067 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 99.184.9.29 Rating: N/A |
Jim, You may call my first line arrogant, but I'm not the person who said that isolators are "between the start bank and the house bank!" If Fred understands electricity better than I think, he wouldn't have said that "isolators charge the house bank slower than the chassis bank, or the starts get overvoltage to charge the house!" Nor have I ever said that isolators "charge the house bank at a lesser rate than the chassis bank." I have gone to considerable lengths to explain correctly how an isolator works, and why, and the response I got was sailing, (hot tub and pools) marine motorists, noisemakers, long life for bulbs, rotary switches, starting with house batteries, solar panels, ad nauseum. Weather? I think he meant whether... "Now I understand would have been much better." Jim, you are really twisting words when you say that "the alternator is functionally between the house bank and the chassis bank." Electrically, it is in the alternator output circuit between BOTH banks. Its function is to seperate the two banks, and provide the same charging voltage to both. I know what a smart, or multiple stage regulator is, but they are not used as the chassis engine regulator on cars, trucks or buses, because the varying voltage would cause the lights to burn out on high or bulk charge, and go bright or dim as the voltage levels vary. A smart regulator can't tell the difference between headlights or an air conditioning blower, and a discharged battery. This is just another reason to stay on track and not put out a smoke screen. Ace and Fred? You need to pay a little more attention to the last several years of posts! I have never called anyone names, and I am not going to start now. Nor have I or am I going to mention or demean character. I have NEVER brought up politics here. I will continue to explain until everyone has had enough, (and some too much) and as it was just posted here by another, "just because I said so doesn't cut it." I have also tried to keep this discussion on track, which is isolators, and how to troubleshoot one, or find another electrical problem. G | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1320 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.208.70.78 Rating: N/A |
Whew..... easy,George no Coronaries, please....sheeewawa...back to the "issue". Worked most of the day on just putting things together, one by one. Both house and starts are reading 12.9-13.1; they have "sat", without charge of any kind for two days... and it has been hot here. Not as warm as earlier this week, but stiil around 90 degrees. Now I am curious about the solar system interfering, so, with it disconnected, am going to sort that out. I am beginning to wonder if that is where the entire situation may have started (short? ,Isolator not doing as I thought it should?, fuses blowing?) Don't know. Meantime, I have re-mounted the Isolator(not connected to anything as of this time)and all the batteries are connected to each other--not starts to house,--starts in series(12 volts), house series and parallel (6 @ Golf Cart 6 volts=12 volts). Cab readings are pretty much equal to Multimeter readings at the batteries. FWIW RCB | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 1234 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 99.156.68.151 Rating: N/A |
"I know what a smart, or multiple stage regulator is, but they are not used as the chassis engine regulator on cars, trucks or buses, because the varying voltage would cause the lights to burn out on high or bulk charge, and go bright or dim as the voltage levels vary." This may have been true in the early (1960's)when folks use the T MAC , a simple heavy duty rheostat to feed field voltage to the alt , bypassing the V reg. It was crude , and with no temperature information , some boiled batteries happened.And some electrics suffered, then. Today's boats are like military aircraft , the electrronics package is a huge % if the boats cost. So sometime in the early 1980's the 3 -4 stage V reg mfg. included a sense wire for the running lights. Seems the electronics ,radios ,radar, fans motors and the rest don't mind an extra volt or so. Today the many LED lights have their own internal regulator and don't mind either, but for the edison lamps , the sense wire is included. This stops an equalizing charge (15V) from happening when the running lights are on. Most cars DO see a variety of voltages as the V regs in cars will actually charge (or operate the AC fans) at one higher voltage , and with low loads go down to a voltage that maintains the batts , but doesn't boil off the water. The simplest method of charging the house , is certainly the rotary switch , as its almost fail proof .But requires operator input and knowledge. The question of what method to join the two sets for a charge in a seamless , no work , no thinking , it all just "happens" is the question. To my mind the std RV solenoid solves the problem for bus campers , better than any other seamless method. FF | ||
| David Evans (Dmd)
Registered Member Username: Dmd Post Number: 479 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 66.33.238.11  Rating: N/A |
i would like to nominate myself for "extreme glutton for punishment" (with strike) above and beyond the normal bus nut levels. in addition to the 2 pre 1950 coaches we have a 37'gaff rig woodie built in Belieze and a 57 Thompson run about. and the 72mgb which we got cause i thought i couldent ride the m/c any more. problem is they r starting to be more of a pain than a joy!!! We are still having a good time so far lol As far as the charging system education, i really appreciate all the teachings from everyone. there are many roads up and down the hills. are the best ones the easiest? sometimes maybe not. | ||
| George M. Todd (George_todd)
Registered Member Username: George_todd Post Number: 1068 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 99.184.9.29 Rating: N/A |
Good morning Chuck, Tuesday morning, (my annual physical) my blood pressure was 110 over 72, so I'm not worried. Aside from a nearly foot long post above, which again has nothing to do with isolators, one thing came to mind. Fred's comments about "isolators charging the house at less than the chassis," means that he has NEVER put a voltmeter on an isolator with the engine running! I'm done with it, I've explained in detail, and everyone else here can read it and form their own opinions. Back to your charging problems, the solar panels will indeed give a higher reading after the batteries have sat for a couple of days. So, a thought, if you can spare the bus for a couple of days, would be to disconnect the solar and the shore, so nothing is charging the batteries. Disconnect the house from the starts, and lets let it sit. On Monday or Tuesday, please read and record both voltages. Then, fire up and get some rpm up for a couple of minutes, and record the start batt voltage. If everything is OK, you should have about 12.6V on a warm day standing, and about 14-14.2V running with only start batteries connected, that were about 12.5 or so before the start. If that happens, your charging system is OK. By the way, from the picture, you have plenty of alternator! (Starts in PARALLEL, sorry, I just couldn't resist, and I am paying attention!) If you don't get 14V fairly quick, one diode may be open in your alternator, or the regulator may be set low? If this works so far, connect the isolator, fire up and record the voltages on both banks. This will confirm the isolator. Good luck, G | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1321 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.245.145.116 Rating: N/A |
(Starts in PARALLEL, sorry, I just couldn't resist, and I am paying attention!) ...just checkin'...! RCB |
