| Author | Message | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1322 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.245.29.62 Rating: N/A |
I have an apartment fridge in the coach, wired so that when the compressor comes on a small fan, mounted in the compressor area, also comes on. Tight space requires additional cooling. Problem is, the additional amperage of the fan, even though very small, is apparently a big draw on the batteries when a charging system is not employed.....so...I concluded....if one wires in a lighted switch (many of you may understand the reasoning here  ) to use the fan only during the heat of the day, usually while the alternator or generator is charging the house batteries ...and not during the cooler night time hours, the draw on the batteries would be lessened considerably. I have attempted a couple of configurations, but so far without the result I want.....which is, when the switch is turned on, the light comes on (in the rocker switch) and so does the fan. Other lighted switches I have installed are DC...no problems. How is AC different? This switch has three terminals, one on top of another. Typical "Ideal" lighted rocker switch. Shortcut to success???? please? Thanx, RCB | ||
| Dave Walker (Chrome_dome)
Registered Member Username: Chrome_dome Post Number: 54 Registered: 3-2010 Posted From: 67.174.144.159  Rating: N/A |
R.C. You should be able to bring in your 2 wire plus ground (green). 1 Light up Switch, 1 Fan. You have a Black(hot)and white Neutral wire. Turn off power then cut your black and hook each end to each side of the switch. Coming out of the switch attach the end of the black to the black on the fan and connect white out of fan to the white that came in originally with the first black. Hook all greens together. And call it done. Dave | ||
| George M. Todd (George_todd)
Registered Member Username: George_todd Post Number: 1070 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 99.184.9.29 Rating: N/A |
Chuck, This one's easy, compared to figuring out the charging system! The switch requires a neutral to complete the light portion of the circuit. The switch needs the hot wire on one terminal, the wire to the fan on another, and a neutral connection on the third. L1=hot in T1=power out to fan N=Neutral I'm guessing those are the marks on the switch? G | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 1117 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 96.35.250.34  Rating: |
Chuck, I don't think you're getting the answer you want here, and I'm afraid I don't have better news. If I read your request correctly, what you bought is an "illuminated toggle switch" and what you want is for the light in the switch to act as a pilot lamp, coming on when the fan is on, but staying off otherwise. Unfortunately, the "illuminated" style switches are wired internally in a way that makes this impossible. They are designed so that the light in the switch comes On when the switch is Off, and vice-versa. The idea behind these switches is to be able to find them in the dark, so they are only lit in the Off position. What you need instead is a switch with a Pilot Lamp. The most common style of this fits in a duplex "receptacle" plate; in one hole is the switch and in the other is a small pilot lamp. All that said, there are other ways to do this that are probably more efficient. For example, ditch the 120vac fan for a low-power 12v "muffin" fan of the sort found in computers. These use a tiny amount of energy, and you could probably just let it run all the time, or drive it with a 120vac relay from the compressor circuit. Or else do what I did near my inverter: connect the muffin fan to a thermostat, so it comes on when it gets too warm in the area. Lastly, if you want to stick with the switch plus pilot light solution, I would get a plain toggle switch and find an LED pilot lamp, which will use less energy when it's on. The pilot lamps in most household switches are incandescent or neon. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1323 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.243.135.171 Rating: N/A |
Which, is exactly what I did George...no light..the switch itself has only 1 2 3 marked on the side. Ideal, purchased at an electrical supplier (contractor supplier). I think Sean has probably hit it,.... except for the fact the link below shows what I want to do...so there must be something out there that does what I want. switching to a 12 volt fan would require considerable more wiring and complications. There is no 12 volt anywhere near the fridge enclosure. I like the thermostat idea, but not sure what all that would entail...sounds complicated to me  . My entire driver panel, and other places in the coach, I wired so when the (Condura brand)switch comes on, the light on each switch comes on (then there is the issue of lights burning out over the years in those particular switches )But then, those are DC switches..not AC. Check this out: http://www.bcae1.com/ on right side of page, scroll down ,click on #41 (switches)...go to the rocker switch, 6th item down....(NOTE the interaction possibilities) precisely what I want to accomplish...with a fan instead of a bulb. BTW..IMHO, this is an excellent tutorial/site! Some one has gone to great lengths here! However, once again, this is working with batteries. I have several locations in the coach with the switch/pilot, but hoping to eliminate the extra light... Thanx for the "help", all; comments? RCB | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 1118 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 96.35.250.34 Rating: N/A |
"... except for the fact the link below shows what I want to do...so there must be something out there that does what I want." Yes, as I said, you need a "switch with pilot lamp" combination. An "illuminated" switch simply can not be made to do what is shown in the diagram you referenced. The switch contact that operates the illumination lamp is internal to the unit and does not appear on any of the wiring terminals. Pilot lamp switches are available from Leviton, Ideal, and others: http://www.google.com/products?q=leviton+switch+with+pilot+lamp -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1324 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.243.135.171 Rating: N/A |
OK.Sean...but look at the link, click on the tabs and see, right before your eyes, that it happens in that illustration.... Now, are you saying that 125v switches won't do it, but apparently DC (battery switches) will? This is where I do not understand what is the difference. I can see that in the illustration(s) the switch is "grounded" and that, perhaps is where the rub is. RCB | ||
| Len Silva (Lsilva)
Registered Member Username: Lsilva Post Number: 380 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 72.187.35.208  Rating: N/A |
It's just a question of terminology. As Sean said, an "illuminated" switch is intended so that you can find the switch in the dark. A switch with a pilot lamp is to indicate the status of the switch. As a matter of fact, the "illuminated" switch will usually go dark when the switch is on as the lamp is simply wired across the switch contacts. They work exactly the same as the battery switch you indicated in the example except it is equipped with a 125 volt lamp and the ground is replaced by the neutral. (Message edited by lsilva on July 14, 2010) | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 1119 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 96.35.250.34 Rating: N/A |
"Now, are you saying that 125v switches won't do it, but apparently DC (battery switches) will?" No. What I said is that a household switch designed as an "illuminated" switch does not have the correct wiring terminals to do what you want. It has nothing to do with 120vac versus 12vdc. I have also seen 12vdc "illuminated" switches that are wired the same way, meaning you can not use the internal lamp as a "pilot light". I believe the switch you have is an illuminated switch, not a pilot light switch. The switches you have on your dash, and the ones shown on the site you linked, are wired differently. With the lamp terminal brought to the outside of the switch, the lamps on this type of switch could be user-connected either way. If you send me the model or part number of the 120vac switch you have there I can tell you for certain. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1325 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.243.135.171 Rating: N/A |
Switch is R13-205..I can't find in the Ideal Product listings. Seems like a contradiction of things, Len...read your last paragraph. If what I understand from you and Sean is true, this is an "illuminated switch"...trouble is, there is NO illumination. Could be that the switch is bad or...I'm a complete Imbecile.... Can't get my head around why the DC switches I have will do it and an 125vac won't. "I believe the switch you have is an illuminated switch, not a pilot light switch. The switches you have on your dash, and the ones shown on the site you linked, are wired differently. With the lamp terminal brought to the outside of the switch, the lamps on this type of switch could be user-connected either way. "...so Sean, is this type switch available? I have not bee4n able to locate one, per se', in anyone's product list. I'm not giving up....just have to keep trying to skin the cat in other ways. I hate to have to put in an indicator lamp just because I can't get something straight in my brain. Thanx, RCB  | ||
| Len Silva (Lsilva)
Registered Member Username: Lsilva Post Number: 381 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 72.187.35.208 Rating: N/A |
OK, it's a question of terminology. In the electrical trade that would be called a pilot/switch but I guess in the automotive or component business, they call it illuminated. Anyway, this should work for you. I won't comment on the legality or applicable codes.  | ||
| Don Evans (Doninwa)
Registered Member Username: Doninwa Post Number: 273 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 208.81.157.234  Rating: N/A |
Sounds like the best setup might be a switch and thermostat in series with the fan. If you want lites you could add indicator lites when the switch is closed to enable the fan and/or one to indicate when the thermostat has closed the contacts so you would know when the fan is running. I added a DC setup, in the old bus, with a pilot lamp to remind me when the booster fan on the Norcold is enabled but not one to let me know when the fan is energized. Good luck, Don 4107 | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1326 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.243.135.171 Rating: N/A |
Len...that #3 terminal on the switch is brass; the other two are not...OK? Just don't want to "mess up" something. Thanx for the schematic...that's my kind of thing! RCB | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 1120 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.41 Rating: N/A |
Chuck, You can't find that in the Ideal catalog because that's not an Ideal part number (which would be 774039). The R13-205 is made by Shin Chin Industrial in Taiwan. R13-205 actually refers to a whole series of rocker switches with different configurations, some lit and some not. There is even a 12VDC illuminated model. There are actually five more digits to the part number, which would specify voltage and terminal configuration. The wiring diagrams for these switches are not what I was thinking of when I said it might not be possible. These are actually wired for illumination or pilot use. If the light does not come on when you connect hot to terminal 2 and neutral to terminal 3, then the lamp is defective. That would happen if, for example, this was made for 12vdc and you connected 120vac to it. Or it could simply be defective or burned out from the factory. The pilot lamp in the 125vac version is neon. As you know, neon will only work on AC current, but I presume that's what you are using. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1327 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.243.135.171 Rating: N/A |
That is a puzzle, Sean...it came out of an Ideal Package (wish I had not thrown it away) and, yes, it is a 125vac switch. No other numbers on it. Some Electrical symbols and the 1-2-3 at the terminals... + and - at the brass terminal. No other markings. So, what you are saying is in line with what Len drew. I am going to give that a shot tomorrow. Actually, that had crossed my mind yesterday, but decided against it...didn't want to ruin a switch or whatever. Thanx for the extra effort! RCB | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 1121 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.38 Rating: N/A |
Sometimes suppliers meet their production needs by buying product from a variety of other manufacturers, so you may well have a Shin Chin switch that came out of an Ideal package. In which case, the Ideal part number would have been on the package itself. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1328 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.244.15.150 Rating: N/A |
Len....thanx, much!! Worked as you stated and as I wanted. I had put that neutral every where but where it should have been...just did not make any sense to me, but with your drawing...well, I could "understand" the logic. And, yes, it did go to the brass terminal! The drawing will go into the bus manual. No doubt I will want more of these sooner...or later. And thanx to all who responded! Appreciated, for sure. | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1923 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.71.157  Rating: N/A |
Since you didn't indicate what kind of fan you use, you might consider one of the "muffin fans" that are used in electronics; cabinets, enclosures etc. some of them are low draw and quiet. | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1329 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.245.153.132 Rating: N/A |
JWR...I used an evaporator fan from a fridge unit...about 5 inches in diameter...1.1Amp. Can't hear it running. Mounted it next to the compressor. Since the enclosure is only a couple of inches wider than the fridge, had to "find room" in the bottom of the unit itself. Blows a bunch of air....the original fan was only about 2 inches in diameter. Time will tell. RCB | ||
| Keith Wood (Ft6)
Registered Member Username: Ft6 Post Number: 126 Registered: 8-2008 Posted From: 75.210.126.34 Rating: N/A |
Uh . . .how about using a solar-powered DC fan? If the cooling is only needed during the day, then starts when the sun comes up and stops when it goes down, you never have to worry about it. No switch, no battery, no controller, just a small panel on the roof wired directly down to the fan. | ||
| Jack Fids (Jack_fids)
Registered Member Username: Jack_fids Post Number: 115 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 69.171.160.227  Rating: N/A |
IF... I were looking for a high efficiency fan the 1st place I'd head to would be a place that RECYCLES Computers. You would find both 110 AC AND 12volt DC fans of every size. I have a 3inch dia. 12 volt fan salvaged from a PC that is like a punch in the face when you pass by it! These fans can be had for a pittance or LESS and they can be mounted in pairs or more....6 of them in a line would draw .18 amps...(@ 0.030 amps each) and it's HD brother (110 v.) will draw .48 amps (@.08 amps each) FWIW | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1330 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.244.16.155 Rating: N/A |
The fan I used was less than a pittance, but good suggestion. I was advised, on this forum, not to use a PC fan.....also didn't want DC due to extra wiring complications. Solar is a fine idea, and I have the solar available, but "something" told me to not go that way...pretty much for reason just stated. Thanx for the suggestions. May be useful for someone!. RCB | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 1239 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 99.156.68.151  Rating: N/A |
"These fans can be had for a pittance or LESS and they can be mounted in pairs or more....6 of them in a line would draw .18 amps...(@ 0.030 amps each) All these DC computer fans have a problem , they are not reversible. On our boat we installed a 6 inch plastic cover plate , and simply purchased spare covers. A jewler's saw allows the fans to be trimmed to round and a hole and some glue makes a unit. Install to push the air out , or the other to pull fresh air in , or the simple cover plate when nothing is needed. The breeze is good , and power consumption really minor. Best of all you can sleep with them running ! FF | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1331 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.242.175.123 Rating: N/A |
FF...I read the English, but miss exactly what you are doing there,,,,"On our boat we installed a 6 inch plastic cover plate , and simply purchased spare covers. " ?? Thanx, RCB | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1924 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.71.157 Rating: N/A |
I was talking about the larger 6 to 7 inch square silent fans. To reverse, just install backwards. The mounting holes are identical on both sides. No need to reverse direction of fan. They are available in a/c and d/c; 12 volt or 110volt. | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1925 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.71.157 Rating: N/A |
Go to buyextras.com they have 12, 24 and 110 volt versions in various sizes and output. Good site to save. wire it in to run when compressor runs, and build a tight flue area up past back of reefer with a open vent at top of reefer enclosure. If you have a openeable roof vent near by, you can crack it to let heat out.An outside air source for the supply air for the fan could also be considered with a reefer roof vent. | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 1240 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 99.156.68.151 Rating: N/A |
The cover plates are used to create a water tight cover for a 6in hole (8 in in next size up). The covers and base are O ring gasketed and only cost a few bucks. Their use makes the fan reversal Easy , one base , 2 modified fans (push or pull). We use a plug and socket that would usually be found on something like a power cube , radio shack , bags has of them. FF |
