| Author | Message | ||
| Jim Huskins (Lostranger)
Registered Member Username: Lostranger Post Number: 25 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 70.109.21.228 Rating: |
Just yesterday I was ready to give up on my '87 Flex Metro that I've been working on since 2002 (more off than on), but the decision to junk it never felt right. I was frustrated by a roof leak that's been getting worse for a couple of years, and has lately been awful. We're on the verge of going full time, and my wife HATES water in the floor. Sometime in the wee hours of last night, I had an epiphany (in summer, no less). I wondered if the seal between the outer roof skin and the front cap is actually as good as I thought it looked. It did not take much digging with a small screwdriver and a utility knife to discover that it is not. I then spent an inordinate amount of time with a rotary wire wheel on a side grinder to clean out the old caulk — both the original seam and the "medley" of sealers that had been globbed on during its years of noble transit service. The actual seam forms a crevice about 3/8" wide by 1/4" deep. Of course whatever sealant I use has to adhere to both aluminum and fiberglass. I'm assuming that plastic body filler is not a good choice here, but I don't actually know that. My inclination is to use polyurethane caulk. Is that a good choice? If so, what surface prep do you recommend? Should I use Sikaflex? If so, which one? Does a still better choice exist. We're having a rainy spell lately, but it missed us today, and I have the front of the bus under a tarp. I'll be sure that it's bone dry before resealing. I do not want any more water penetration. I'm excited about the possibility of keeping my bus, and I appreciate any help. Jim Huskins Marion, NC | ||
| Russell Beam (Rcbeam)
Registered Member Username: Rcbeam Post Number: 13 Registered: 11-2009 Posted From: 74.131.50.239  Rating: N/A |
Jim I don't have any help for you, but I have to say "good for you" for not giving up. There are many times that I continue to feel so overwhelmed and "whipped" by all that needs to be done to fix things on a coach. Without getting into a long spill, yesterday I found out a decent MC9 was going to the local crusher and I actually made me feel depressed. There were several outside parts that I wanted to get but it wasn't meant to be. So plug on and don't give up. | ||
| Jim Wilke (Jim Bob) (Pd41044039)
Registered Member Username: Pd41044039 Post Number: 543 Registered: 2-2001 Posted From: 71.80.55.228  Rating: N/A |
I have used polyurethane calk on all sorts of outdoor stuff and never have I been dissapointed with it. If your surface is clean and silicone free it will stick to almost anything. The surface has to be dry to apply. Put masking tape on both sides of the joint. Lots of rags & paper towels & use a rag wet with mineral spirits to finish/smooth & wipe up the spills that you WILL have happen. Pull the tape & let it dry. You'll never have to worry about that joint again. I have used poly to bed automotive glass & to repair the old rubber H channel that holds bus glass in place. Does good on the end joints that open up after a while. | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1350 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.211.24.130  Rating: N/A |
Jim...hooray for you...lotsa' ways of skinnin' cats, right? I have tried most everything over the 9 years I have had our Crown and have found, almost without exception that PL Roof Flashing Cement, obtainable almost any where that sells such stuff, is very dependable. Having said that, I used SikaFlex to "glue my steel sheets (10 feet long x 28" or so high thru the window level) and have not had problem one with it. Very short (20 minutes) set-up time. Sika makes a variety of products and I am sure one could fit the bill. (Steve Padgett at Sika, USA was a great help to me) One of the things I liked about the PL, and I use it all the time around the house, is that it can be laid down, then cleaned up easily and quickly with Mineral Spirits. I used it to seal all my windows on the coach after installing new skin. Never a problem. Matter of fact, mine are sliders and tended to leak at the slide joint. I decided to seal them at that joint as well and have had no water problems since. That was 4/5 years ago. Had the coach painted last year about this time, and no leaks anywhere PL was used (or anywhere else for that matter). PL has a bout a 24 hour set up time, so no problems with cleanup. FWIW...and hang in there!!!  RCB | ||
| George Martinez (Foohorse)
Registered Member Username: Foohorse Post Number: 192 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 72.144.61.67  Rating: N/A |
http://www.3m.com/product/information/Marine-5200-Adhesive-Sealant.html I have found this to be indestructible I am not kidding it will not come off. it is used to seal the headlights on speed boats and all fittings below the water line. and anything else marine, there is no other option for boats, so you can imagine the UV salt and extreme water pressure this has to deal with, I have seen fibreglass chucks come off hulls before this sealant let go. | ||
| Jim Huskins (Lostranger)
Registered Member Username: Lostranger Post Number: 26 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 70.109.21.228 Rating: N/A |
You guys are great. Thanks for the help and encouragement. Is PL a polyurethane? | ||
| Jim Wallin (Powderseeker01)
Registered Member Username: Powderseeker01 Post Number: 86 Registered: 10-2008 Posted From: 76.76.66.103  Rating: N/A |
George is right, you can't beat 5200. It won't come of of you or your bus. | ||
| John Lacey (Junkman42)
Registered Member Username: Junkman42 Post Number: 127 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 66.243.228.157  Rating: N/A |
Jim, George is right! Go to west marine and get a caulking tube of 5200 in Your choice of white or black. Tape both sides of the joint about 2 inches or so on each side and then lay a heavy bead of the 5200 in the joint. Take a wide putty knife and start at one end and scrape the material into the joint which will level it at the same time. It has a warranty life of twenty years and is indestructable. Do not use the quick set as the slower 5200 adheres better. John L | ||
| Tim Brandt (Timb)
Registered Member Username: Timb Post Number: 555 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.165.176.62  Rating: N/A |
Around here even Home Depoit caries 5200. Absolutely the best to use. | ||
| steve wardwell (Steve_wardwell)
Registered Member Username: Steve_wardwell Post Number: 69 Registered: 2-2010 Posted From: 75.203.23.207  Rating: N/A |
5200 IS the best in the west with only one drawback. this is a "permanent fix" for your lifetime and maybe your offspring too.Use only when your parts are clean , dry (use a hairdryer) It is not paintable so plan accordingly and do not use under roof ACs or something with a service life as it would need to be "cut" off when you need to R & R............s............ | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1353 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 69.97.124.223 Rating: N/A |
Yes, PL is Polyurethane...and is paintable....and can be removed (with a lot of effort, time and patience.. ; the importance of a good clean up early on. Comes in black only AIR. RCB | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 954 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 71.55.13.161  Rating: N/A |
I have used for a number of years, tub and tile sealer around for a lot of sealing. The surface has to be clean as stated and then apply with a very small opening to the seam and force it under it as best you can and then as mentioned spread er out and it does come in different colors LOL MY thought!! But I have used it on buses without any problems. Also resist mildew and stays flexable. Gomer | ||
| Jim Huskins (Lostranger)
Registered Member Username: Lostranger Post Number: 27 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 70.109.4.172 Rating: N/A |
I've decided to use the 3M 5200. Thanks for all the help. I wish I'd known a bit sooner about the slow set adhering better. I just drove 50 miles round trip to get some, and I chose the fast set on the theory that quicker cure would enable me to get onto other things sooner. Oh well, it's only another 50 miles. | ||
| Jack Fids (Jack_fids)
Registered Member Username: Jack_fids Post Number: 125 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 69.171.160.0  Rating: N/A |
Way to go Jim! Press on regardless... for every problem there IS a solution... it's just finding that solution & applying it properly. The final solution when all else fails is to push that sucker down the dock & into the drink... something I wish we'd all learn when it comes to elected representation! Stick to it AND stick it to IT... in the end your pride will exceed the memories of the failed attempts. As for me... I am a die hard believer in SIKAFLEX.... it's cheaper that riveting and nearly as strong as welding WEAR thin rubber gloves tho with either product tho! BTW....have you seen photos of the schoolies that have Asphalt shingles up on top? (snickering under my breath) (Message edited by Jack_Fids on August 11, 2010) | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 956 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 71.55.13.161 Rating: N/A |
Jack, are you off schedule for your meds? LOL Gomer | ||
| Tim Brandt (Timb)
Registered Member Username: Timb Post Number: 556 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.165.176.62 Rating: N/A |
Jim even with fast set you will find that "better adhesion" is a very relative term with regard to 5200. Once dry it is damn near impossible to remove. I used to work in a boat yard and had to remove a port from a boat someone had installed with 5200...to make a long story short when the port came out the 5200 pulled the gelcoat off the fiberglass | ||
| Jim Huskins (Lostranger)
Registered Member Username: Lostranger Post Number: 28 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 70.109.4.172 Rating: N/A |
I can't do the work until Friday, and I don't have time to swap the fast-set for slow before then. Maybe I'll just use the fast-set. The tube recommends roughening fiberglass and cleaning surfaces with a non-alcohol solvent. Any thoughts on using brake parts cleaner for the prep solvent. It's supposed to leave no film or residue. | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 1271 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 99.153.142.249  Rating: N/A |
5200 IS the best in the west with only one drawback. this is a "permanent fix" for your lifetime and maybe your offspring too.Use only when your parts are clean , dry (use a hairdryer) It is not paintable so plan accordingly and do not use under roof ACs or something with a service life as it would need to be "cut" off when you need to R & Today Worst Marine also carries a goop that breaks down 5200 , slow but it works. Too many boaters were using it to bed items that sometimes need to be removed . 5200 can be cured more rapidly by simply sprinkling a bit of water , its hydroscopic and needs moisture to cure. Great stuff !!Home Depot is cheaper than any marine source. FF | ||
| John Lacey (Junkman42)
Registered Member Username: Junkman42 Post Number: 128 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 66.243.230.244 Rating: N/A |
If you want to remove items in the future use a polysulphide such as 3m 101. 5200 is a adhesive and has many uses such as putting patches in auto floor boards etc. If put on a clean dry surface it is better than welding in some cases. My old willard motor sailboat would fall apart if it was not for 5200! John L | ||
| ED Hackenbruch (Shadowman)
Registered Member Username: Shadowman Post Number: 303 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 69.99.227.40 Rating: N/A |
I have used Dicor Lap Sealant for some leaks and for sealing screws when attaching something on the roof. A little messy but remains flexible and can be removed. I am also a fan of C.R. Laurence's RTV 308 silicone. Hard to find but works well on certain things.....it is what Motion Windows/ Peninsula Glass uses between their double pane windows. I had a window leak that the po had tried to fix and i tried to fix with about 4 different things with no success until i used the 308. Also used it to reseal my rear cap seam that was starting to look bad. I don't know if you can paint it or not. | ||
| steve wardwell (Steve_wardwell)
Registered Member Username: Steve_wardwell Post Number: 70 Registered: 2-2010 Posted From: 75.200.248.116 Rating: N/A |
5200 can not be shaped after it's set , so smooth out with a wet putty knife after applying, remove the tape at the sides. I have seen people apply a paintable caulk over the top of 5200 to hold paint with mixed results, (not sure what they used, maybe phenoseal?) The quick set will be fine just get it smooth before it gets a skin on top............s...... (Message edited by steve_wardwell on August 12, 2010) | ||
| Jim Huskins (Lostranger)
Registered Member Username: Lostranger Post Number: 29 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 70.109.7.66 Rating: N/A |
Here's an update on resealing the front cap on my Flex: I did not get the adhesive applied today. I spent all the available time doing further cleaning. I was amazed at how much residue survived Tuesday's assault with side grinder and cup brush. Now I have it clean as ... well, something really clean. I'll jump on the sealing job tomorrow morning. I asked in an earlier post about the advisability of using brake parts cleaner to prep the seam. The 3M 5200 tube says not to use solvents with alcohol, and brake parts cleaner contains methanol. I'm betting it will be okay since I'm letting it dry overnight, and then I'll clean the joint again with acetone. I hate using such strong solvents, but this seems like a have-to case. | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 1174 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.162.93.86  Rating: N/A |
Usually what's great under water, doesn't fare well when dry and excessively heated, like on a hot metal roof..... The expansion and contraction can play hell with anything that's too rigid, too. The RV shops use butyl on roof seams and on windows. And roofs (and/or seams) can be coated with "KoolCoat" or similar "marshmallow fluff" looking rubber compounds. just sayin'..... | ||
| Jim Huskins (Lostranger)
Registered Member Username: Lostranger Post Number: 30 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 70.109.5.247 Rating: N/A |
John, are you "just sayin'" that you have experience or knowledge of 3m 5200 failing in a roof application? just askin' | ||
| George Martinez (Foohorse)
Registered Member Username: Foohorse Post Number: 201 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 72.144.61.67 Rating: N/A |
John that's of course sound thinking but 5200 is used for above and below the water line, I have seen this product age very well on fittings, hatches, bow rails, cleats, boats made out of fiberglasss, alloy, steel, or concrete use this stuff it does not harden or crack. it remains pliable for years. | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1360 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.211.178.19 Rating: N/A |
So does PL....and SIKA......and is "removable". FWIW RCB | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 1280 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 99.153.142.249 Rating: N/A |
For folks that can , the best "trick" with any of these sealants is to assemble the parts with plenty of goop. Masking tape prevents a mess , lightly tighten the fitting , sprinkle some water and walk away. In 3 5 days come back and snug the fitting down. This leaves a substantial layer of hardened goop under the fitting , rather than squeezing it all out with an initial hard tightening. FF | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 959 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 71.55.13.161 Rating: N/A |
I believe when you look at the directions on any sealant, it says to spread an amount on each surface and let it set for xxx amount of time and snug up and then tighten to specs,??? Gomer | ||
| Ralph Peters (Ralph7)
Registered Member Username: Ralph7 Post Number: 138 Registered: 3-2004 Posted From: 75.195.230.117 Rating: N/A |
I used 3M 5200 on the first 2 joints (seams) of my MC-8 roof 6 or 7 years ago, painted over it with Rust-Oleum gloss white, looks good and no leaks. Also Henrys 212 clear used to seal some of my windows when I installed them, I like it. | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 1178 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.162.92.199 Rating: N/A |
Jim Huskins - I never used 5200 on the roof. As far as I remember, the issue was with what the roof temperature can reach.... ------- Note: Because actual use conditions can vary for each application, each user must determine the suitability of 3M Marine Adhesive/Sealant 5200 for the intended use. - Heat resistance - Due to the decreased value in bond strength at elevated temperatures, we do not recommend use of this product above 190°F (88°C). - Do not apply at temperatures below 40°F (4°C) or on frost covered surfaces. Do not apply at surface temperatures above 100°F (38°C). - 3MTM Marine Adhesive/Sealant 5200 is not recommended for use as a teak deck seam sealer. Extended exposure to chemicals (teak cleaners, oxalic acid, gasoline, strong solvents and other harsh chemicals) may cause permanent softening of the sealant. - 3MTM Marine Adhesive/Sealant 5200 is not recommended for the installation of glass, polycarbonate or acrylic windows that are not also mechanically fastened with a system designed by the manufacturer. Inconsistent adhesion of these unprimed substrates, specific design of the window, and movement due to thermal expansion and flexing, may cause application failure. It is strongly recommended that the customer contact the window/port light/hatch manufacturer for recommendations on proper sealing procedures. ------- From here: 3M Marine Guys that have used it for a roof applications say they don't have a problem, and I would trust they're telling the truth..... however.... I also believe the manufacturer's cautions. For what it's worth.... John |
