| Author |
Message |
Norm Edlebeck (66.60.196.183)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 08, 2003 - 10:59 pm: | |
I see a lot of info about diesel and gasoline gen sets, but not a lot on propane ones. I have a propane 7K Kohler and since I have an 85 gal. tank, I buy my propane for about 95 cents a gallon. Since it is not used to power the bus on the highway, I understand it's a federal law to charge all the extra road tax when it's used not only for my GenSet but for my 2 Suburban furnaces, plus a 4 burner gas cooktop. Maybe I'm missing something, but I would think that more Busnuts would consider a Propane GenSet rather than diesel or gasoline because of the added cost. Any comments? |
Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat) (68.7.217.217)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 1:39 am: | |
I second that... I have a 7.5K onan, propane (converted it myself) and a 100 gallon propane tank. Cheap to run, very little stink out the exhaust pipe, engine will run forever and never wear out, and I'll NEVER run out of diesel because I used it up in my genset by accident!! Yes, propane's cheaper too if not used for road power. Everyone to himself, but I agree with Norm that propane is the way to go for the genset, cooking, refirg, heating. Of course many busses don't have the room for a giant tank like ours, which is fairly essential in my mind for 1-2 week booneying in the desert with AC on all day...
Cheers
Gary |
FAST FRED (67.75.111.196)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 5:59 am: | |
For folks that do not need air cond 24/7 Propane is far superior to the diesel units.
Far easier to start in cold .
No hassles from many months of no use.
No fuel contamination, cheap parts like oil filters ect.
And most anyone can coax a reluctant unit to life (clean the spark plugs!)
And the noise is lower than diesel and big bonus ,
the exhaust isnt giving cancer or otherwise KILLING the folks in the next site.
Works for me,
FAST FRED |
Don KS/TX (65.150.145.194)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 7:58 am: | |
Probably the only thing I would do differently if I do another bus, is dump the diesel genset, and go propane!
Last year I bought`an Onan propane genset for a different project, and it is the smoothest, quietest genset I have ever seen! I could never get that three cyl diesel job to settle down and run that smooth and quiet!
In addition to the very valid points Fred furnished, it will and does run an AC 24/7 just fine thank you, and the initial cost is less also. Go Propane! |
CoryDaneRTSIIIL (4.17.253.211)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 3:37 pm: | |
NOW HOLD ON A MINUTE
The last time I saw a post on this board about gensets, the propane genset was condemned to death. It was said to be stinky, noise was stated as a problem and said to use propane up very quickly, requiring a huge storage tank for propane. The consensus was that the bus would need way too big a tank to store propane for any "reasonable" use on the bus.
Now we have users singing the blessing of a propane supplied genset on a bus.
WHAT GIVES HERE? This is where the bus nuts get confused and go in the wrong direction guys. These propane gensets either suck or are great, they cant be both. This is exactly why I keep telling people that you have to be fair on all issues without your preference trying to side somones decision. Just the facts for the decision makers. Shame on you guys cd |
Peter Broadribb (Madbrit) (170.215.174.92)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 3:49 pm: | |
cd,
I agree totally with you on this. Everyone and their Aunt were into Diesel gensets especially Onan Quiet Diesels. The 3 cylinder Kubota or Isuzu were the best of them all.
As you now point out, we are being told the only thing to have is a propane unit??????? What gives????
Everyone I have spoken with, still hates their propane unit as a smelly and noisey and often hard to start unit. Perhaps they magically changed overnight? Also, that matter you brought up of the amazing amounts of propane they consume. Not suitable for boondocking as you need to take the bus to refill that huge on board tank. A BBQ bottle would not last more than a day or two.
I'm keeping my 12.5kw Onan Quiet unit, this propaganda will not sway me into selling it for a pittance........ LOL.
Peter. |
Henry R. Bergman, Jr. (Henryofcj) (209.210.116.27)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 4:08 pm: | |
He he he, the GREAT thing about this board is that we all can submit our humble opinions. Well. here goes mine...for what it is worth.
I think propane is simply great as a low cost, storable, energy efficient fuel...FOR A STATIONARY APPLICATION!!....like a home or cabin.
However, for a mobile, shaky, high vibration application such as a motor coach, there are other more safe fuels....such as diesel.
Strickly a personal opinion NOT backed up by ANY rational or logical data. I'm retired fire service and have bad memories about propane.
But none regarding diesel. Yeah, diesel is smelly, costs more initially and goes bad over time, but I love it anyway...in my coach.
Had propane in the old solar cabin years ago. Worked great. Will have diesel in the Crown and it will work great also. Thanks. Henry of CJ |
FAST FRED (67.75.96.50)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 5:21 pm: | |
YES, it does drink more GPH than a diesel.
So in 24/7 use it can get expensive and require a big tank.
For a couple of hours some days to run the Air Cond its great!
As a genset in an RV the claims of "stinky" or "hard to start" are usually from cheap folks who do not get the unit tuined by a pro.
"But the dealer is $75 an hour" so the guy in the next campsite "tunes" it.
And it STINKS.
A well maintained propane unit is a fine choice for any RV setup , except 24/7.
Mostly because they suffer so little from the usual lack of use.
Another instance of knowing/planning the lifestyle you intend to have & getting the best option for your expected needs.
FAST FRED |
Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat) (68.7.217.217)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 7:18 pm: | |
Me again... some things to consider:
(1) A propane engine is NOT stinky if tuned properly... in fact it's the nicest smelling exhaust going IF the engine's tuned right. Run it rich, yeah... pew!! But still better than smoking diesels....also still better than improperly tuned gasoline motors. When things are running to spec on a propane genset, the only thing that comes out of the exhaust is CO2 and water.
If you've ever taken an engine apart that has run on propane, you'd be amazed. Because it burns so clean (and for a few other reasons), engines on this fuel never wear, in fact they never wear out.
From a maintainance and economy standpoint, nothing touches a propane engine.
(2) Yes propane gensets do use more gallons per hour than either a gasoline or a diesel genset at the same power level. This is because the propane molecule is aproximately 30% lighter than a diesel molecule, and contains an equivalently less amount of energy. It translates almost directly to "you'll get 30% less running time on a given tank size" for propane as compared to diesel... but so what? A 100 gallon tank is not a big deal to install...at least it wasn't a biggie for me, and that goes a LONG way...
(2) Noisy? Uh-Uh...Propane engines are identical to gasoline engines except the carburetor... they are exactly as quiet or noisy as is the genset's design. Running on propane changes nothing regarding noise... Buy a nice new Onan, it's Quiet!!
(3) Hard to start? WRONG... in fact if the fuel system is properly designed and implemented, a propane fueled engine will start much easier than any other fueled engine period. I'm not saying that they are always designed correctly... MANY conversions are poorly done and poorly designed, and even a few factory ones. But if it's done right, a propane engine will start in freezing cold, on a roasting hot day... it will NEVER flood, foul a spark plug or vapor lock. And it's engine block will never have to be warmed up on a cold day to get it to kick over. Last, propane engines don't care if the last time they were started was a day or two years ago... they just go.
....at least this is my experience, and I've done a LOT with propane...
(4) I respect Henry's opinions... as a fire guy he probably encountered some nasty propane experiences, because if it's not done properly, a propane system can be downright dangerous, and a lot of people do bad propane installations with improper hardware. HOWEVER there are a LOT of guidelines easily accessable about how to and how not to do a PROPER propane installation, and if the wisdom of our great forefathers in the propane industry is followed, it's as safe as anything, maybe even safer.
That said, propane isn't something you can just blindly go out and do on your own... you need to research the rules, the safety guidelines, the techniques, the hardware, and do it right. If you don't, you have no business even trying. Unfortunately for people like Henry, there are too many folks out there who have done it wrong, and fires, explosions, and deaths are all too often the result. Diesel is forgiving. Gasoline is somewhat forgiving. Propane is NOT forgiving.
Ok, my two cent's worth...
Cheeers
Gary |
Peter Broadribb (Madbrit) (170.215.174.92)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 8:05 pm: | |
From what I remember, it is whether the propane engine is vapor or liquid supplied that made it a nice or nasty unit to keep in tune, etc. I think it was the vapor unit that was a clean burning reliable motor. The liquid units had problems with their "vaporizer".
Peter. |
Geoff (Geoff) (66.238.120.167)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 8:21 pm: | |
Around here propane is $2.50 a gallon-- $7.50 to fill up a BBQ bottle, and I don't see them giving any discounts for "off-road" use even though the gas station knows it's a BBQ bottle. I just filled up my bus with diesel twice last weekend-- $1.49 with road tax. My diesel genset burns 1/2 gallon an hour at half load, it is quiet and is made to run 24/7 if I need it. Propane gensets are for sticks and staples whose other alternative is gasoline.
--Geoff
'82 RTS CA |
Geoff (Geoff) (66.238.120.167)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 9:10 pm: | |
Okay, so I screwed up on the math (actually 12.50 to fill)-- but to make up for it I called a local propane seller and their price went down to 1.99 a gallon (they are not a gas station, though), BUT all propane sales also have to charge state sales tax, which is another 7.25% per dollar added to the price.
--Geoff |
Gary Carter (68.24.111.0)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 10:37 pm: | |
Price in point. When I left Yuma in May propane could be had for .98/gallon and diesel for 1.42/per gallon.
The biggest problem with propane that the engines using it are really designed for use with gasoline. Propane is very high octane making for a slower burn (quiter). If you had a way to raise the compression and advance the spark you could get better than gasoline and close to diesel consumption.
Us old farm boys remember Minneapolis/Moline tractors that were a favorite of the propane users. Had almost 14-1 compression and were far more economical to operate than either gas or diesel. But they were designed to take advantage of propane characteristics. |
Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat) (68.7.217.217)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 10:00 am: | |
Gary, actually I totally disagree with you on every point, well, except the price of propane in Yuma. I love the signs on I-8 while driving west in Arizona... "Last chance for fuel before California prices"... definitely a truth...
There is no "problem" with gasoline engines running on propane, in fact they operate far longer, far cooler, and no louder or quieter.
You will absolutely not get better fuel consumption using propane over gasoline by changing the compression ratio or spark advance, period. In fact, high compression engines are problematic on propane because it tends to preignite very easily, due to the fact that it's a pure vapor and you cannot put in anti-preignition additives as you can with liquid gasoline. The propane conversion industry goes to great lengths to taylor the spark advance curve VERY differently than it is with gasoline engines, just to avoid this probelm. Turbocharging an engine or raising it's compression ratio complicates the problem!!!
It's simply the physics of the propane molecule and how many BTU's it contains. Motor vehicle engines that are designed for propane get 15% less mileage than they would on gasoline, and there's nothing you can do to change that. If you don't beleive me, talk to the folks at Impco. They outfit vehicles with both OEM and aftermarket conversions, and believe me if they could simply raise the compression ratio and advance the spark to increase mileage, they would.
Take a look at Onan gensets for example... "7.5KW gasoline/6KW LPG"...that's the factory specs for exactly the same machine, and it perfectly follows what you see in all engines...
It's simply this...
One gallon of:
Propane contains 92,000 BTU
Gasoline contains 126,000 BTU
Diesel contains 139,000 BTU
No matter what you do, with a conventional piston engine tuned to perfection for the fuel it's using, and the same vehicle otherwise, you're gonna get less miles per gallon with gasoline than you will with diesel, and less miles per gallon with propane that you will with gasoline.
Oh yeah, in San Diego, highest fuel prices in the frikkin country, I buy my propane for $1.20 per gallon. But don't expect to find that price at the local Shell station that fills BBQ tanks... you have to go to a dealer....
Cheers
Gary |
Phil (204.89.170.126)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 11:31 am: | |
I've had both, 6.5KW Onan propane and 7.5KW Onan Quiet Diesel (current). I do not operate 24/7 but do quite a bit of race track "boondocking". I would not go back to propane for any reason. I live in the northeast and the QD has always started, just have to wait a little longer for the glow plugs when it is cold. Yeah, it runs a little rough for a couple of minutes while warming up. A simple exhaust pipe extension deals with the slight smell. |
Gary Carter (68.24.122.96)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 2:58 pm: | |
Guess I must defend myself but I never said there was a problem running propane in a gasoline engine. What I said was the propane generators were not set up to take advantage of propane. They just do a fuel conversion where as the farm tractors did a full conversion which included high compression pistons.
Also propane does not pre-ignite. If it did you would not be able to add propane to the air intake of a diesel. The introduced propane is actually ignited by the burning diesel fuel. Check out the flash points each fuel. |
Gary Carter (68.24.122.96)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 3:03 pm: | |
I had a propane genset for a dozen years. It worked great and would start at 18 degrees below zero. With the amount of time I put on the set I never could justify the cost to convert to a diesel. Last year we changed coaches and it came with a diesel generator. We still seldom use it. Being retired if we need A/C it is time to head North. Furnace on to much, go south. |
FAST FRED (67.75.113.76)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 4:13 pm: | |
The different ignition curve for propane in necessary because the vapor burns do well compared to atomized fuel.
Seem to remember Propane Octane is 120+ or so.
Lots better than the soup sold as gasolene MTBE? at 87 octane.
FAST FRED |
Steve (162.39.145.146)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 13, 2003 - 2:46 am: | |
What are us diesel sniffers to do????????? |
FAST FRED (67.75.106.59)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 13, 2003 - 6:05 am: | |
Be kind to your neighbors and vent the stench up over the roof of your coach.
Hopefully the folks downwind will be poisoned a bit slower & you won't have to deal with either mouth to mouth , or chest compression for them.
FAST FRED |
Doug Dickinson (Dougd470) (24.207.251.176)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 14, 2003 - 11:46 am: | |
Here is MY concept and direction:
I bought and am installing now, a Honda 6010 gen set that is gasoline fueled. The reasons are that:
1) On a January morning when I have to wake up my coach in a storage yard, I will be able to start it since gasoline will start at lower temps than propane (and Missouri gets a bit chily in January) and my block heater will be electric.
2) I can carry one or two of the 12 gallon tanks to get it refueled if I have to without driving the coach anywhere. Right now, I have a 6 gal and a 12 gal - soon to add the 2nd 12 gal since a 12 gal tank will run it for about 24 hours or more.
3) Propane tanks take up more room due to the round shape vs a square tank for diesel or gas. You then have 30% less for fuel type and another 10 or 20% for tank shape.
4) I am installing Carbon Monoxide detectors in my coach for this and other reasons. BTW - CO DOES occur with propane but in smaller amounts and less often in a properly tuned unit. Don't go thinking that CO is not going to occur. It does! I choose not to tangle with that dragon!
5) I will consider a diesel gen set about the time I consider full-timing. I will be using my coach for weekends and summer vacations for a few years and Diesel doesn't make sense to me right now. I may be doing a wabasto unit around then also.
This is my way - it makes sense to me.
Doug
St Louis MC9 |
Don KS/TX (65.141.166.49)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 14, 2003 - 1:18 pm: | |
I keep hearing of cold start problems with propane. I never had such a problem, is this just because I am too dumb to know I was supposed to have problems? Anybody else with input on cold start problems with propane? (I know ALL about cold start problems with diesel!) |
Doug Dickinson (Dougd470) (24.207.251.176)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 14, 2003 - 5:34 pm: | |
Cold start problems occur below zero degrees for the most part. Propane is slower to become vapor at lower temps until you hit -50 degrees if I recall correctly when it ceases to "boil" (my temps could be off) For that reason, most of the fixed gen sets I have seen have a liquid feed to the carb where it can be heated slightly by the engine which gives a consistant volume changeover at a temp range.
Would you have a problem? Probably not unless you are in Alaska in winter - or some of the most northern states at least, and don't have a liquid feed carb. Maintenance has a lot to do with it.
I KNOW gasoline works then and I have had problems below zero with Propane with a vapor feed. Like I said, my experience and my way. You need to check your situation as to what works best for you.
Doug
St Louis MC9 |
DrivingMissLazy (24.196.191.70)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 14, 2003 - 9:18 pm: | |
I have been told that in the northern states in the winter the propane mix is different. I was told that a small amount of butane is added to make the propane vaporize at a lower temperature. The advice I got was to always use up the southern mixture before you get in cold country and then fill up with the propane/butane mixture once you get further north. FWIW
Richard |
Doug Dickinson (Dougd470) (24.207.251.176)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 14, 2003 - 10:04 pm: | |
That is my understanding also. The Butane will vaporize at somewhat lower temps. I would be concerned about using that in a gen set but that is only because I don't KNOW. Very important with these things. It is similar to diesel fuel in that winter formula is different than summer formula. Gasoline differences are due to polution control, not stability or usability. I just like to stay out of there and do what I do now. If I need to fire up my gen set, fresh gasoline of whatever formula will get me going for now. An electric heater for the block will get the big plant operating, and I am good to go.
Doug
St Louis MC9 |
Tom Caffrey (Pvcces) (64.114.233.247)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 15, 2003 - 12:24 am: | |
My memory of propane was that it would not vaporize somewhere between 35 and 40 below. I got this from a run through Canada where the temperature dropped below -40° and the propane would not work in the heaters.
Some people kept their heat working by running smudge pots right under the tanks. When I came back out of Alaska, the temperature was -60° at Beaver Creek, right on the Yukon border.
They were using big bottles for fuel for the cabin that I stayed in. The heater in the cabin kept the cabin up to 60°, so I was pretty comfortable.
I thought the fuel was butane, but I just checked it's boiling point and it is listed as -.5°C. However, methane(natural gas) is listed as -161°C, so it would always be pressurized. The URL is
"http://dwb.unl.edu/calculators/pdf/hydroboil.pdf".
For what it's worth.
Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576
Suncatcher |
Gary Carter (68.24.100.145)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 12:33 pm: | |
If going north do NOT use butane. Butane's boiling point is about 35 degrees above zero so will not vaporize below the temperature. Propane boils at about 45 degrees below zero.
I know from experience a propane generator will start at 17 degree below zero. Yes it does get the cold some winters in Minnesota. |